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Calvinism?

https://faithconnector.s3.amazonaws.com/chafer/files/v9n2_6israelite_covenants.pdf Part one

http://friendsofsabbath.org/Further_Research/Bible/ISRAELITE COVENANTS IN THE LIGHT2.pdf Part 2

https://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download?doi=10.1.1.519.5522&rep=rep1&type=pdf

https://meredithkline.com/files/articles/Law-Covenant.pdf

http://www.jcmatthews.org/uploads/5...hrough_covenant_by_peter_j._gentry_sample.pdf

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Two things...keep in mind that not everything these guys say has been codified by further research, and I don't have the time to sit and read all of the articles that have come out since these. Also, JSTOR is free, all you have to do is sign up (or at least it used to be free, they didn't ask me for money when i logged on today, and i haven't logged on in over a year). There are a lot of resources on JSTOR if you are interested in reading the papers.

Blessings!
Dear Shaolin,
Actually the paper by Rene Lopez is the first one I had found in my research on the ANE Covenants, but do appreciate you getting it to me again. Just a confirmation that you've seen it. :-)
I also was able to get the one by Meredith Kline on Law-Covenant.

I've downloaded them and the others you provided links for as pdf's so I can open them later at my leisure. Appreciate the time and effort in getting it to me. If I have questions, I'll touch bases with you, but probably via Private Message, instead of open forum, since I'm not sure when that might be.

As far as the "two things" to keep in mind. One thing my momma gave me was a good dose of skepticism when it comes to what others put into print. Scripture for me is always first, with everything else secondary in comparison. Helps are nice, but Holy Spirit understanding can't be beat! :)

Anyway, thanks again.
With the Love of Christ Jesus.
Nick
\o/
<><
 
Actually, the reason why I asked this (started this thread) is because I went to the "What is calvinism" in the Questions about Christianity forum, and the person who wrote that whole section takes nonsense from CARM and GotQuestions websites, and both are blatantly calvinistic sites...everything they write has a calvinist slant to it.

I know that calvinism is 'taken' as a 'denomination' falling into the pale of orthodoxy...but when fully examined, it is not.

Anyways, I am through here if someone wants to lock it. If not, that's fine too.

Blessings.
 
Dear Shaolin,
Actually the paper by Rene Lopez is the first one I had found in my research on the ANE Covenants, but do appreciate you getting it to me again. Just a confirmation that you've seen it. :)
I also was able to get the one by Meredith Kline on Law-Covenant.

I've downloaded them and the others you provided links for as pdf's so I can open them later at my leisure. Appreciate the time and effort in getting it to me. If I have questions, I'll touch bases with you, but probably via Private Message, instead of open forum, since I'm not sure when that might be.

As far as the "two things" to keep in mind. One thing my momma gave me was a good dose of skepticism when it comes to what others put into print. Scripture for me is always first, with everything else secondary in comparison. Helps are nice, but Holy Spirit understanding can't be beat! :)

Anyway, thanks again.
With the Love of Christ Jesus.
Nick
\o/
<><


I agree...Scripture always should come first. The only reason why I said that, was because in the process of learning about ANE covenants, as with anything in current research, not everyone comes to a full grasp of things at first. It takes time to come to fully understand something in its entirety...for example, take Beacham; he claims that the church has no part in the New Covenant, that it is only for Israel. But when we take Scripture first, we see in Scripture that God includes Gentiles in the New Covenant, just as He did in the old. As usual with God, everything begins with Israel and goes out to the world.

Today, anyone who is joined to God in covenant is one of God's people, it does not matter what ethnic origin they come from. We even see this in Paul - he always went to the Jew first, and after they rejected the gospel, he would go to the gentiles in that particular city. So, even though Beacham has some things regarding covenant down, he also clings to some errors. It has taken me a few years reading all of the material that I could get for my doctoral thesis, spreading out over 70 years of research, but by taking Scripture first, and then aligning what I see in covenant research papers, we now have a complete and accurate picture of covenant and how it affects our interpretation of Scripture.

Blessings!
 
Untrue, really only two major denomination follow Calvinist teachings. In the US it's really only the Baptists.

That's not accurate.

Let me show you what i mean.
If you inspect the central core doctrine of the "Baptist's"......mainline baptists.......you will not find that they believe that God chooses some for hell.
In other words....the "predestined elect" nonsense, that is a core fundamental of crazy calvinism, is not "baptist".
Its "other" denominations, that have been infected with JC.
Many forums, "christian" forums, are owned and operated and modded by these hyper calvinist "pre-destined elect", deceived, as well.
 
That is what I keep asking people who defend him. They will be the first to say, "You don't know it all, no one does..." yet they turn around and act like calvin did know it all. Very telling on how such people think! Its all about bias, not truth to some.

Blessings!


Well, you know... The NT and Pauline Theology is the way to go.
John Calvin can't lead you there, so , you have to be careful to understand Pauline Theology, and then JC can't infect you with some of his "crazy".
 
Well, you know... The NT and Pauline Theology is the way to go.
John Calvin can't lead you there, so , you have to be careful to understand Pauline Theology, and then JC can't infect you with some of his "crazy".

So true...however, a red flag went up when you used the terminology "Pauline Theology." Paul doesn't say anything different from any of the other biblical writers, he just says it in a different way. Both calvin and Luther misinterpreted Paul's writings because they read 15th century church politics into Paul's 1st century writings, that was one of the major blunders of the Reformation. And because of that, and Reformed Theology, the church has had the wrong interpretations and teachings that comes out of Paul's words.

For example, there is no such thing as "works is the opposite of grace" nonsense in Scripture when it is properly understood. Works (as defined here, not by calvinism) is walking in obedience to God, not to the law of Moses, and if one is not walking in obedience to God, then he does not have saving grace according to Scripture, because saving grace is only given to those who are in the New Covenant, because it is a covenant gifting. And the only way to remain abiding in the New Covenant of Christ, is by walking in obedience to God, specifically in the Law of Christ (which is loving on others, helping them in their time of need).

We are only given saving grace as long as we remain abiding in covenant relationship with God, which we do by walking in obedience to Him (works). Therefore, according to Scripture, not the false teachings of men, works (obedience to God) and saving grace go hand in hand, you don't have one without the other.

Having said that - there is a Biblical difference between salvation and eternal life - above I am speaking about eternal life, not salvation. In order to get saved, one needs to meet the criteria for salvation, but that isn't the same as meeting commandments. Eternal life, on the other hand, is maintained by walking in obedience to God according to Scripture. And, in case anyone wants to talk about these things, I can demonstrate with Scripture what I am saying.

Blessings
 
C4E...have you studied hermeneutics yet? Hermeneutics does not replace the place of the Holy Spirit in studying the Scriptures, what it does is confirm to us what the Holy Spirit's intended meaning of a verse says. I have heard people say before that they get their interpretation from the Spirit...yet they were deceived (I am not saying you are, I am simply stating some facts on the subject).

As for ANE covenants, this is a HUGE problem in the grass roots level of the church today. We have known about ANE covenants since the late 1890's and much research has gone into codifying exactly what they are and how they affect our understanding of Scripture. In truth - if a person is actually listening to the Holy Spirit when it comes to their interpretations of Scripture, then we find covenant only ratifies what we already know...but sadly, there are more denominations and churches out there today who not only know nothing of covenant and how it affects our interpretations of Scripture, but most denominations REFUSED to acknowledge what ANE covenants tell and show us - for no other reason than their doctrines were demonstrated to be in complete error.

One thing covenant does, just like a modern day contract, it defines and limits our interpretation of Scripture (which is where we get the "Scripture interprets Scripture" principle from), covenant gives boundaries to what we can say a verse means, and certain groups that came out of the Reformation refuse to align their doctrinal statements with the Scriptures, so they refused to incorporate ANE covenants into their hermeneutic. This is really sad, because many people out there, because of these people in control of these denominations, believe they are saved and on their way to heaven, when they have been deceived.

I can give you theological papers to read on the subject if you are really interested in reading up on them, just let me know...





Covenants are not contracts - they do have a legality to them like contracts do, but they are more than a contract. When two people enter into a covenant, it not only has the legalities that they bind themselves to each other in, but the covenant also brings them into a personal relationship...so much so that most covenant societies consider a covenant relationship to be more binding than blood relationships. But you are right in a way - covenant is based upon love, but "legal love." The love that covenant is based upon is "hesed," which is "covenant love;" and by that hesed intends that you love on the covenant partner by walking in obedience to the obligations in the covenant that you signed up for.

You are absolutely correct...Jesus is the "door" to that relationship, because God has made Christ the living new covenant according to Isaiah 42:6 and 49:8. God the Father made the Messiah His living covenant to come, which today is the New Covenant of God in Christ. When Jesus said that no man can come to the Father except through Him, He was directly implying this because He is the embodiment of the new covenant. God is not in relationship with anyone if that person is not in covenant relationship with Him. It is just like marriage (which is the only covenant we have here in the U.S.) - two people enter into a legal covenant relationship through ceremony (marriage) in order to be able to enter into a more personal and intimate relationship. It is the same with God, who made these things...we enter into covenant relationship with Him so that are qualified to enter into His presence so that we can engage Him in personal, intimate relationship.





Agreed, which is why covenant is not a contract, it is a lot more. Contracts have no personal relationship involved, while - again - covenant brings the covenanting parties into a familial relationship. If you and I covenanted with each other, your family becomes an extension of my family. In ANE covenant societies in the middle east, if your life was saved by Tom (say from drowning) and you two became blood brothers because of it (the most basic covenant rite), if you and Tom are married, then your families become one. The covenant makes the two individuals "one life lived in two beings." Your wife would also now be Tom's wife, and vice versa...because both you and he are now looked upon in that society as one life being lived out in two individuals. Of course, this is not how ANE covenants run in Israel, this was mostly in Bedouin and African societies.

Blessings!
/
"We have known about ANE covenants since the late 1890's". Let me get this straight: So therefore as this is a relatively new idea (ANE) this tells me that all the people from before the 1890s have been taught false doctrine and will not recieve the gift of salvation. This is absolutely terrifying, as Jesus and his Kingdom is going to miss out on millions if not billions of people. I am sorry to hear God via the Holy Spirit made such a huge mistake and forgot to teach them this way of interpreting scripture. I weep at the idea of all those poor souls who will perish. And I too must have been decieved when I was worshipping Jesus since very early childhood, with two narcisstic parents as role models. Oh the ignominy!
 
/
"We have known about ANE covenants since the late 1890's". Let me get this straight: So therefore as this is a relatively new idea (ANE) this tells me that all the people from before the 1890s have been taught false doctrine and will not recieve the gift of salvation.


Wrong, covenant is not a "relatively new idea," it is part and parcel of the gospel...the church just lost that information in history when the church become predominantly gentile (Europe) beginning with the Roman Empire under Constantine. Your other carnal idea is also shot down...just because people didn't know about covenant does not necessarily mean they were taught false doctrine. Everything in the gospel regarding covenant is there, IF a person is honestly seeking God's Word rather than walking in their bias.

On another note, since you seem worried about the issue...what became the catholic church taught false doctrine from 313 AD until 1500 AD - 1200 years. Your sarcasm is misplaced.


This is absolutely terrifying, as Jesus and his Kingdom is going to miss out on millions if not billions of people. I am sorry to hear God via the Holy Spirit made such a huge mistake and forgot to teach them this way of interpreting scripture. I weep at the idea of all those poor souls who will perish. And I too must have been decieved when I was worshipping Jesus since very early childhood, with two narcisstic parents as role models. Oh the ignominy!

As I said, your ignorant sarcasm is drastically misplaced. God didn't forget to do anything; He did it, and then men messed it up...or don't you remember or understand Adam in the garden? The knowledge of ANE covenant and that the new covenant is under the auspices of covenant principles of operation, was lost to the church primarily when Constantine invoked his Edict of Milan and made Christianity a legal religion of Rome. You really should read up on church history, it seems that you don't know very much on that point.

Just think of all those poor souls who went into eternity under roman catholicism, deceived into eternal fire...as for your own personal issues, that isn't what we are talking about here.

Blessings
 
Dear @Shaolin @Gregoryp
Let's play nice now. Mentioned this earlier, and had hoped not to have to remind anyone again.
Hopefully, this thread does not continue to be a bone of contention, where it devolves into personal attacks.
One can agree to disagree without ridiculing one another for doing so.

With the Love of Christ Jesus.
Moderator
Nick
\o/
<><
 
what became the catholic church taught false doctrine from 313 AD until 1500 AD - 1200 years.

This is a concept that is so hard to get people to understand. For some reason they just refuse to accept this. It's only when one looks at church history and sees what was originally taught that one actually must accept this if they are honest with themsleves.
 
This is a concept that is so hard to get people to understand. For some reason they just refuse to accept this. It's only when one looks at church history and sees what was originally taught that one actually must accept this if they are honest with themsleves.
I know a family of staunch catholics, the rituals they perform, the false doctrine, the glorifying of the pope, cardinals and mary is staggering. Many times I have tried to warn them of the false god and jesus they are worshipping, they wont have it of course.
 
I know a family of staunch catholics, the rituals they perform, the false doctrine, the glorifying of the pope, cardinals and mary is staggering. Many times I have tried to warn them of the false god and jesus they are worshipping, they wont have it of course.
Yep. People get something in their head and they won't let go. It's not just Catholics though. It's through out the church. There is so much taught today that is wrong and people just don't want to hear it. It's so different I almost consider what is taught today and what was taught by Jesus and the Apostles as to different religions.
 
It's so different I almost consider what is taught today and what was taught by Jesus and the Apostles as to different religions.

There are some remnant churches still around. But I agree they are getting harder to find.
 
There are some remnant churches still around. But I agree they are getting harder to find.

I agree...there is a "remnant"...those who still search for Scriptural truth amidst religious Pharisees who only live to protect their bias. Like, I would not be surprised in the least to find people here from the Progressive Christianity group who have snuck under the radar claiming to be Christians. I have run in to my share of them, and it breaks my heart that they are so calloused by sin that their hearts and senses have become hard and dull.
 
Yeah, I find it extremely difficult to find a church.

I know what you mean. We moved to our current location 11 years ago, and I have been to virtually every church in this city (besides the obvious ones...catholic, JW, Mormon, etc.) and they are either pastored by a guy (or woman...) who was never called by God into the ministry in the first place, or they are inundated by calvinist doctrine. Even the Assemblies church here has a pastor teaching calvinism, and the AOG traditionally (unless they have changed in recent years) outright denied calvinist doctrines.

I finally found a Church of God where doctrine is primarily Biblical, but the first-time pastor does still have some doctrinal issues, but the more I share with him the more he is coming around.
 
the AOG traditionally (unless they have changed in recent years) outright denied calvinist doctrines.

According to their website ( Assemblies of God (USA) Official Web Site | Our Core Doctrines ) The "Our 16 core beliefs" tabs. They still are against at least 4 of the TULIP doctrines.
They are the largest Protestant denomination currently - if you count the affiliates.

However the Southern Baptists (largest denomination in the US) still hold to all the TULIP teachings. The Baptist Faith and Message
 
According to their website ( Assemblies of God (USA) Official Web Site | Our Core Doctrines ) The "Our 16 core beliefs" tabs. They still are against at least 4 of the TULIP doctrines.
They are the largest Protestant denomination currently - if you count the affiliates.

However the Southern Baptists (largest denomination in the US) still hold to all the TULIP teachings. The Baptist Faith and Message

I fully believe this is why America has become so weak and decadent over the last 100 years. False doctrines have so infiltrated the church that "the gifts of the Spirit died out with the apostles" and "you are saved the moment you believe" and other nonsense, unbiblical doctrines, have successfully castrated the church from moving in the power that it once did. When people like Smith Wigglesworth were roaming the world, raising the dead, healing the sick, etc., because they spent hours in prayer with God on a daily basis...but we are too busy watching hours and hours of Hulu and Netflix, spending more time in the light of our TV's and computers rather than in the light of His presence.

I just finished translating II Timothy 2:15 straight from the Greek with its grammar fully intact, and this is what it says:

II Timothy 2:15
Make every effort to stand in the presence of God, an approved, faultless worker correctly handling the Word of Truth.

Now, why do other versions pervert this by rendering the first part as "do your best to present yourself to God?" My personal take (as translating the NT for the last 4 years or so) is that the devil had his hand in working these so-called translation boards, where a vast majority of them are calvinist, translating according to their calvinist slant. Paul says that unless we ensure that we are standing in God's presence, we will not be able to correctly and accurately interpret God's Word. Why is that important? Because just like in the OT, one cannot come to know and correctly understand God's Word if he isn't walking with God in personal relationship...and most of my peers who have a Ph.D. on their scholar titles, don't spend enough time with God to be able to punch their way out of a wet paper bag.

Anyway...started preaching, sorry about that...
 
I know what you mean. We moved to our current location 11 years ago, and I have been to virtually every church in this city (besides the obvious ones...catholic, JW, Mormon, etc.) and they are either pastored by a guy (or woman...) who was never called by God into the ministry in the first place, or they are inundated by calvinist doctrine. Even the Assemblies church here has a pastor teaching calvinism, and the AOG traditionally (unless they have changed in recent years) outright denied calvinist doctrines.

I finally found a Church of God where doctrine is primarily Biblical, but the first-time pastor does still have some doctrinal issues, but the more I share with him the more he is coming around.
That's good to hear. I can't find one that Biblical. I did find one that was about 93 miles way. It's hard to sit in a church and listen to pastor teach incorrect doctrine.
 
That's good to hear. I can't find one that Biblical. I did find one that was about 93 miles way. It's hard to sit in a church and listen to pastor teach incorrect doctrine.

Have you approached any pastors in your local area to see if they are teachable? That's what I did when I realized what they were teaching. Two of them said yes, but after we engaged in conversation and study of doctrine, it turned out that they lied (no other way for me to put it). But this third one is proving to be a truth seeker so far, and as long as he continues to at least listen and weigh the Scriptural evidence, then I have a home church.
 
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