RJ
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Can A Christian Lose Their Salvation?
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RJ
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8:13 (for if you live according to the flesh, you will die), but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body you will live
I don't see the contradiction.
"for if you live according to the flesh, you will die".
If you live the life of a non-believer and you die (physical death), you will ALSO die spiritually.
but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body you will live
Conversly, if you live according to the Spirit (Born Again, Born of the Spirit) you can not be un-born or ever die spiritually.
You can not live spiritually perfectly 24/7. You are not expected to nor can you, not until you die physically and are fully glorified (1 COR 13). Remember, God's part in this is perfect and he says he will never leave or forsake a believer. The moment you become a believer and recieve God's gift of the Spirit, you are spiritually alive for all eternity. It is God's promise.
"For I will put myself in the hearts and minds of men and I will look at their sin no more"
But Acts 2:4 does.
Acts 2:33 Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.
If Peter is saying that the promise was audible, how can someone claim to have received the promise inaudibly ?
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Brother Mike
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Stay Focused.......
Lioncub...
Spiritleded Responded to your statement... and my question...
If your going to have discussion, please pay attention, and stay focused.... just take your time... read a little more careful...
All this is in response because you posted this...
You claim tongues is a condition to being saved or born again.
We wanted that scripture!!! That is all... nothing more... You gave us scriptures, then you drew a conclusion to include being saved... and we just don't do that..
Acts 2:4 says... "As the Spirit gave them utterance"
That is as the Spirit gave or enabled them to do so... that does not denote someone has to speak in tongues to be saved...
Acts 2:33 See and Hear......
When the Spirit of God is in operation, you can see and hear things... but no indication that it references to being saved or born again...
Your Question:
How do they know??? How would anyone know..
Luk 11:13 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?
By Faith!!!!
do we see and hear to know that we receive, or did Jesus say Believe that you receive then you have it???
Now where is that scripture... ??
add this scripture also:
Where is the scripture that tongues is the ONLY evidence of being filled with the Holy Spirit??
Jesus Is Lord
Lioncub...
Spiritleded Responded to your statement... and my question...
If your going to have discussion, please pay attention, and stay focused.... just take your time... read a little more careful...
All this is in response because you posted this...
You claim tongues is a condition to being saved or born again.
We wanted that scripture!!! That is all... nothing more... You gave us scriptures, then you drew a conclusion to include being saved... and we just don't do that..
Acts 2:4 says... "As the Spirit gave them utterance"
That is as the Spirit gave or enabled them to do so... that does not denote someone has to speak in tongues to be saved...
Acts 2:33 See and Hear......
When the Spirit of God is in operation, you can see and hear things... but no indication that it references to being saved or born again...
Your Question:
How do they know??? How would anyone know..
Luk 11:13 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?
By Faith!!!!
do we see and hear to know that we receive, or did Jesus say Believe that you receive then you have it???
Now where is that scripture... ??
add this scripture also:
Where is the scripture that tongues is the ONLY evidence of being filled with the Holy Spirit??
Jesus Is Lord
RJ
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I suppose a person who has no speech can not be saved?
I don't speak in tongues and have no desire to do so. If God put's it in my heart to do so, so be it and I will be blessed but, it has nothing to do with my salvation. It is a personal thing and you know it when it happens.
The best way that I can explain it is from a verse from the famous gospel song, "Amazing Grace":
T'was Grace that taught my heart to fear.
And Grace, my fears relieved.
How precious did that Grace appear
The hour I first believed.
RJ
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Yes, not you necessarily but, this is the type of thinking that holds individuals in bondage to the truth and from taking verses out of context. One, I believe, has to take the Gospel in entirety.
The truth, which Jesus said would set you free, is that He did all the work at the cross and his job of providing forgiveness for all is complete. There is no more going in and out of salvation or in and out of spiritual life.
It is so complete, that Jesus Christ is the first and the last High Priest to sit down (even at the right hand of God); all others before him were never allowed to sit down because they were in constant preparation for the next years "Day Of Atonement".
That's why I believe that "Once Saved Always Saved" is true. The truth is once saved and in the spirit you are in the Spirit of God for all eternity. It is no longer a matter of doing this or doing that to be saved; that if you don't follow some set of requirements that the result could be spiritual death, that would be living under the law.
We are no longer under the Law, we are saved by and live under Grace which is a gift from God and free. Also, being free there is nothing more for us to do but live and love one another in this truth!
God simply reminds us that if we die while in the spirit (alive in the spirit), we remain in the spirit for all eternity. Conversely, if we die without the spirit of God in us, then we die spiritually for all eternity.
And what remains for a true Christian, Paul explains it at the end of 1 COR 13: and this is what remains for believing Christians: "Faith, Hope and Love". Faith that your belief is what saves you, the Hope of eternal salvation and spiritual life is sealed in the "Book of Life" and all we need to do in the meantime is love one another to the best of our ability.
I just dont understand why it talks about the same thing in here:
Gal 5:16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.
Gal 5:17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.
Gal 5:18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.
RJ
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It is talking about the same thing and I haven't changed my understanding. This is what I see and you have to come to your own conclusions:
Gal 5:16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.
Being "Born Again" or saved you are indwelt with the Spirit of God, the Holy Spirit or Christ, it is all the same and it is a promise from God and He said that He would never leave you. Does this mean that God has done this to His desires perfectly? Absolutely! Does this mean that you walk in His spirit perfectly? Absolutely not. We can do nothing perfectly in this life; not until we are made perfect...look at 1 COR 13. But being indwelt with the Spirit of God, you will no longer fulfil the lust of the spirit or take it to completion. Once you are saved you can not fulfil the lust of the spirit. It doesn't mean that we don't mess up, we do but, Jesus took care of that at the cross.
Gal 5:17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.
Look at what Paul says in Romans 7 where tells of his own struggle with the desires of the flesh and the desires of the spirit (God). Paul says that "He does the things that he doesn't want to do" and "He doesn't do the things that he wants to do". Paul is in a struggle between the flesh and the Spirit but, he is no less saved and alive in the spirit for all eternity. Look how he follows up this discussion in the first sentence of Romans 8:"There is therefore now no condemnation to the which are in Jesus Christ, who walk not after the flesh but who walk after the spirit". Again we walk not in perfection but we walk despite our imperfection. The truth will set you free!!!
Gal 5:18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.[/
Again, you are not saved by keeping up with some list of requirements. In fact, when you are saved, you walk in the Spirit and are no longer subject to any previous Law from God or man.
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Brother Mike
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Walk after the Spirit...
Perfect means complete. Could there be different level's of complete?? Say, 20% complete??
We see our example, Jesus, the Head of the Church Grow with a stronger spirit, filled with wisdom, and God's Grace was on him.
Luk 2:40 And the child grew, and waxed strong in spirit, filled with wisdom: and the grace of God was upon him.
Was Jesus perfected?? NO........... He still had room to grow and increase.
Luk 2:52 And Jesus increased in wisdom and stature, and in favour with God and man.
---------------
Rom 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
Rom 8:4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
Gal 5:16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.
Is there a scripture that states this is impossible 24/7??
If we walk in the Spirit, can we also at the same time walk after the flesh, and going two different directions?
Walk= Greek peripateō
1) to walk
1a) to make one’s way, progress; to make due use of opportunities
1b) Hebrew for, to live
to walk: - behave (2), conduct ourselves (1), conduct yourselves (1), leading...life (1), leads...life
Eph 5:18 And be not drunk with wine, wherein is excess; but be filled with the Spirit;
Eph 5:19 Speaking to yourselves in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody in your heart to the Lord;
Act 2:4 And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.
Could there be different levels of being filled with Holy Spirit or Anointing on our life??
Could there be a way to increase in the Holy Spirit if we were lacking??
Like Jesus, Could we still do well and be perfect if we never leave the light we do have, and continue to grow?
Jesus Is Lord.
Perfect means complete. Could there be different level's of complete?? Say, 20% complete??
We see our example, Jesus, the Head of the Church Grow with a stronger spirit, filled with wisdom, and God's Grace was on him.
Luk 2:40 And the child grew, and waxed strong in spirit, filled with wisdom: and the grace of God was upon him.
Was Jesus perfected?? NO........... He still had room to grow and increase.
Luk 2:52 And Jesus increased in wisdom and stature, and in favour with God and man.
---------------
Rom 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
Rom 8:4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
Gal 5:16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.
Is there a scripture that states this is impossible 24/7??
If we walk in the Spirit, can we also at the same time walk after the flesh, and going two different directions?
Walk= Greek peripateō
1) to walk
1a) to make one’s way, progress; to make due use of opportunities
1b) Hebrew for, to live
to walk: - behave (2), conduct ourselves (1), conduct yourselves (1), leading...life (1), leads...life
Eph 5:18 And be not drunk with wine, wherein is excess; but be filled with the Spirit;
Eph 5:19 Speaking to yourselves in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody in your heart to the Lord;
Act 2:4 And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.
Could there be different levels of being filled with Holy Spirit or Anointing on our life??
Could there be a way to increase in the Holy Spirit if we were lacking??
Like Jesus, Could we still do well and be perfect if we never leave the light we do have, and continue to grow?
Jesus Is Lord.
RJ
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Could there be different levels of being filled with Holy Spirit or Anointing on our life??
Yes. Certainly God has done his part, indwelt us perfectly but, we have too much interference in in this life and we are not capable in this life to have a perfect 100% Anointing. Foe example, God tells us that no Man can look God Face to Face and live ut, when we die we will see God Face to Face, how? We are pure spirit and pefected, fully capable of experiencing the fullness of God, see the end of 1 COR 13.
Could there be a way to increase in the Holy Spirit if we were lacking??
Absolutely, God tells us that we will continue to grow in the spirit; it is a process that is never complete until after our physicical death. Now, we can prcatice things like meditation to increase our awareness. Also, God tells us that our Faith (belief) is increased by reading and hearing the word of God. I would think, as your faith grows , so does your fulness of the spirit that is with in you.
Like Jesus, Could we still do well and be perfect if we never leave the light we do have, and continue to grow? I am not sure what your asking but, we can always improve, strive for perfection, but achieving it is not possible in this life. One of the results of our forgiveness is that no matter how bad we mess things up along the way, God still calls us Holy, Righteous and Blameless.
But verses like this still make me wonder, what does this mean?
1Jn 2:28 And now, little children, abide in him; that, when he shall appear, we may have confidence, and not be ashamed before him at his coming.
we should abide in him? if we dont we maybe ashamed and not have confidence in his coming?
1Jn 2:28 And now, little children, abide in him; that, when he shall appear, we may have confidence, and not be ashamed before him at his coming.
we should abide in him? if we dont we maybe ashamed and not have confidence in his coming?
Brother Mike
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So far so Good.
So, if it's possible to try and go after the things of God.... If it's possible to effect the amount of anointing and grace on our life that scripture says if we walk after that, then we will not satisfy the lust of our flesh..
If we conscientiously walk after the things of the Spirit... and not the things of the flesh.... We can avoid sin that would have happened otherwise had we chosen not to go after the things of God, or stay filled with the Holy Spirit..
Now, that is not to say we reach perfection....and never sin.... It seems to be connected to what we walk after..
So....................
What if we decide after a time that walking after the Spirit is not really what we want to do... What if we just keep going down the wrong path, and walking after the wrong things... At one time we understood better, but we kept going against our conscience and it became seared to where we were dull and insensitive to the things of the Spirit...
Could it be possible to come to a place where we decide we no longer want God... Not something we just did on a spur of the moment, or just woke up one day and God said I have had enough... But a place and decision that we made, through the choices we made, and the places we walked...???
Heb 6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
Heb 6:5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
Heb 6:6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.
Rev 3:5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.
Not loose our salvation... as in we misplaced it... but by choice.... Give up our inheritance, and birthright..???
Jesus Is Lord..
So, if it's possible to try and go after the things of God.... If it's possible to effect the amount of anointing and grace on our life that scripture says if we walk after that, then we will not satisfy the lust of our flesh..
If we conscientiously walk after the things of the Spirit... and not the things of the flesh.... We can avoid sin that would have happened otherwise had we chosen not to go after the things of God, or stay filled with the Holy Spirit..
Now, that is not to say we reach perfection....and never sin.... It seems to be connected to what we walk after..
So....................
What if we decide after a time that walking after the Spirit is not really what we want to do... What if we just keep going down the wrong path, and walking after the wrong things... At one time we understood better, but we kept going against our conscience and it became seared to where we were dull and insensitive to the things of the Spirit...
Could it be possible to come to a place where we decide we no longer want God... Not something we just did on a spur of the moment, or just woke up one day and God said I have had enough... But a place and decision that we made, through the choices we made, and the places we walked...???
Heb 6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
Heb 6:5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
Heb 6:6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.
Rev 3:5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.
Not loose our salvation... as in we misplaced it... but by choice.... Give up our inheritance, and birthright..???
Jesus Is Lord..
RJ
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To abide in Christ is to know him and to know him is to believe in his return.
John 10:14
New International Version (NIV)
<SUP id=en-NIV-26496 class=versenum>14</SUP> “I am the good shepherd; I know my sheep and my sheep know me
John 10:27
New International Version (NIV)
<SUP id=en-NIV-26509 class=versenum>27</SUP> My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me
Revelation 3:116
<SUP>16</SUP> So, because you are lukewarm—neither hot nor cold—I am about to spit you out of my mouth.
Now to doubt is no worse sin than another. If you abide is Christ you may have had some doubts about all sorts of things but, I assure you if you are here when he returns you will not be ashamed in spite of your doubts.
But, there will be those who called temselves Christians but actually were not saved in the first place. They are Head Christians and not Heart Christians and upon Christ's return they are ashamed that they denied him and had rejected him.
This could also be some of the luke warm that Revelations talks about.
RJ
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I think you just answered your own question. The verse about being ashamed is not for you, It is talking about a person, who being knowledgeable of Jesus perhaps but is not saved. If they in fact witness the return of Christ, they are ashamed that they knew of him but did not believe in him! They were not born again.
It sounds to me like you have only found religion, and not relationship. Perhaps the problem is a church that teaches what you must do instead of trusting by faith what he has done. if you had truely meet him you would have know that relationship to be real and not a religious game.
This is pretty well stated [give or take a few comments] as I know it myself. You have covered practically everything
that I have learnt on the subject through the Holy Spirit teaching me. Whoever wrote it, it is likely God taught them
also especially based on the thoroughness of the scriptures and revelations of them.
And ultimately, all shall know at God's day of judgement, but as you say, I would not take the chance to disobey any
of these scriptures.
God bless all who read and allow the Holy Spirit to teach them the truth of this subject.
Replying to info in post by Seeker of Jesus.
that I have learnt on the subject through the Holy Spirit teaching me. Whoever wrote it, it is likely God taught them
also especially based on the thoroughness of the scriptures and revelations of them.
And ultimately, all shall know at God's day of judgement, but as you say, I would not take the chance to disobey any
of these scriptures.
God bless all who read and allow the Holy Spirit to teach them the truth of this subject.
Replying to info in post by Seeker of Jesus.
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