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Can A Christian Lose Their Salvation?

So be it, if you have never been more free and less angry in your life, I shudder to think how angry you must have been before and with Christ living in you!

Yeah...when I was a believer, it was people like you who thought they had all the answers that would make me the most upset. Especially, since I had such a firm grasp of the teachings of Jesus as presented in the Scriptures. But there is no need to shudder now; fear not. For I am above being offended or getting angry with those who question my beliefs.
 
Yeah...when I was a believer, it was people like you who thought they had all the answers that would make me the most upset. Especially, since I had such a firm grasp of the teachings of Jesus as presented in the Scriptures. But there is no need to shudder now; fear not. For I am above being offended or getting angry with those who question my beliefs.


Now you say above that you had SUCH a firm grasp of the teachings of Jesus but, you told me that you honestly wanted to know about what Spirit and Spirituality were, remember? You assured me that you were not pulling my leg. And Yet, YOU HAD THIS FIRM GRASP! If you had such a grasp of Jesus Christ, you would be teaching about Spirit and Spirituality...not asking, as if you had no clue.

OK friend, as you wish; it's always been about choice and you have freely chosen. Good Luck!
 
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Now you say above that you had SUCH a firm grasp of the teachings of Jesus but, you told me that you honestly wanted to know about what Spirit and Spirituality were, remember? You assured me that you were not pulling my leg. And Yet, YOU HAD THIS FIRM GRASP! If you had such a grasp of Jesus Christ, you would be teaching about Spirit and Spirituality...not asking, as if you had no clue.

OK friend, as you wish; it's always been about choice and you have freely chosen. Good Luck!

Umm...correct me if I'm wrong, but Jesus has not been confirmed to have said anything about the Holy Spirit or the Trinity in any of the earliest records we have of the Gospels. Neither does the Old Testament make mention of a Trinity.
 
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[QUOTEUmmm...O.K., your wrong!
=Tusk Barnes;167387]Umm...correct me if I'm wrong, but Jesus has not been confirmed to have said anything about the Holy Spirit or the Trinity. Neither does the Old Testament make mention of a Trinity.[/QUOTE]


Oh, I see, He has not been confirmed...Wow with such authority!
Ummm...O.K., your wrong!

John 3:5-6 (New International Version)

5 Jesus answered, “Very truly I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of water and the Spirit. 6 Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit[a] gives birth to spirit.

One of Jesus more famous verse about the Holy Spirit, as told to Nicodemus.
But of course with her intimate and vast knowledge of Jesus you just over looked that one!

Come on friend, your testimony is false and dead. If you are not interested in learning or helping someone why don't you just move on?
 
You're going with John, eh? And you're opting for the NIV, too?! Please, don't insult your own intelligence like that.

Not only is the Gospel of John written the latest of all four (in fact, it's one of the youngest books in the entire New Testament), it also does not conform to the other three in many aspects. The contradictions found between it and the three synoptic gospels make it unreliable at best with regard to recording what Jesus ACTUALLY said.

The operative word in my previous message was not necessarily, "Confirmed," although that is certainly important. In fact, the operative term was "earliest records."

Being that the Gospel wasn't actually written by John, and also was not not likely written by an eye witness (based on the average life expectancy in the area at the time), why do you believe it to be factual?


Or if you prefer, let's assume it is true, and I was wrong.

John 3:5-6...
5 Jesus answered, “Very truly I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of water and the Spirit. 6 Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit.

So...what does being born of water mean? Jesus said Spirit gives birth to spirit...not water gives birth to spirit, and not water and Spirit gives birth to spirit. So which is it, Jesus? This verse also seems to be suggesting that one does not even have a spirit (i.e. a spirit is not born), until the Spirit gives birth to it. This would mean that those who have not been born of the Spirit (or born of water and the Spirit...if you like), don't actually yet have a spirit to begin with.
 
Thanks for telling me more stuff I already know.

You are welcome.

False. The bible teaches not only that the earth is flat in Matt 4:8, but it also contradicts itself between Isaiah 40:22, where the earth is called a disc and Rev 7:1 and Job 38:13, where the earth is described as a square.

Well, let's look at those verses instead of just taking your word on it.

Matthew 4:8 said:
Again, the devil took Him to a very high mountain and showed Him all the kingdoms of the world and their glory;

Isaiah 40:22 said:
It is He who sits above the circle of the earth,
And its inhabitants are like grasshoppers,
Who stretches out the heavens like a curtain
And spreads them out like a tent to dwell in.

Revelation 7:1 said:
After this I saw four angels standing at the four corners of the earth, holding back the four winds of the earth, so that no wind would blow on the earth or on the sea or on any tree.

Job 38:13 said:
That it might take hold of the ends of the earth,
And the wicked be shaken out of it?

While one could pick out small verses, claim inconsistency, and then throw out their own destructive ideas, this is never the best way to go about a proper interpretation of what is being said. That is simply malicious intent with slanderous goals in mind.

I hold that the Bible claims the modern day scientific claim being that the Earth is a sphere. In fact, I claim not only that it says we are a sphere but that we also are not the center of the universe. Revelation 7:1 is clearly not speaking of 4 corners of a square Earth. It is referring to the 4 directions of North, South, East, and West. In fact, a similar phraseology is used to describe God's love in Psalm 103:12.

Psalm 103:12 said:
As far as the east is from the west,
So far has He removed our transgressions from us.

Anybody reading it would not interpret it to be saying our transgressions are removed a measurable amount. The East is immeasurable from the West because of the very fact that we are a spherical Earth. Hence, our transgressions are removed from us an infinite amount that cannot be recorded.

As for Matthew 4:8, why make a claim that could easily be proven false by anybody who would have climbed the high mountain? If Matthew was creating such an elaborate hoax, wouldn't he have made a claim that would be impossible to disprove? However, this is not what he did. He made a claim that could be disproven in a day if someone were to take him literally. Or we can look at it for what it is. It is not implying all of the kingdoms of the world could literally be seen from that spot on the mountain. It is saying all the greatness that stretched out before them could be his if only he followed Satan (which we know was a lie anyway). Satan was trying to sound as enticing as possible.

It is also funny that you should mention Job 38:13 by itself. If you add on the very next verse, you will see the idea of a sphere that totally negates your argument.

Job 38:13-14 said:
That it might take hold of the ends of the earth,
And the wicked be shaken out of it?
"It is changed like clay under the seal;
And they stand forth like a garment.

Notice that it says the dawn is changed like clay under the seal. The Hebrew word for changed is haphak and literally means to turn. This means it is saying the dawn turns like clay under the seal. The seal they refer to was a cylinder that had an engraving on it. This cylinder would then turn over the soft clay which would emboss a seal to enclose the document. This is describing a spherical Earth that rotates on an axis, much like the cylindrical seal would rotate on its axis. Again, this completely negates any argument that may come from the claim that verse 13 is implying a flat Earth because the author would not claim a flat Earth in one verse only to claim a rotating spherical Earth in the very next verse.

As for your rebuttal (regarding Isaiah 40:22) that a circle is not synonymous with a sphere, I would expect something better to be argued. Of course, where there is no real argument, I guess grasping for straws is the only option. :wink:

In fact, Isaiah 40:22 combined with Job 26:7 gives us all sorts of insight that could have only been revealed by God at that time (and only made fully aware to us in the present day).

Isaiah 40:22a said:
It is He who sits above the circle of the earth,
Job 26:7 said:
He stretches out the north over empty space
And hangs the earth on nothing.

Here, we see an image of a spherical Earth that God sits above. The author of Job tells us that the North is stretched out over empty space. We often think of the North as being up. Picture God putting 1 part of the Earth above the rest and then sitting even higher than this as He watches it all. This not only implies a spherical Earth but also implies gravity. Otherwise, the people would fall right off the face of the Earth if it were tilted to a 90 degree angle.

In fact, Proverbs 8:27 even speaks of the "circle on the face of the deep." This circle is the curvature of the horizon when looking at it from our perspective. This, too, implies a spherical Earth.

It should also be noted that in the sixth century B.C.E., Pythagoras had already suggested that the Earth revolved around the Sun. By the third century B.C.E.,Aristarchus had outlined a heliocentric solar system, while Eratosthenes had measured the circumference of the Earth. Hipparchus had invented longitude and latitude.

It should also be noted that the book of Job is the oldest book of the Bible. Being that Genesis is the next oldest book and was written somewhere between 1445-1405 BC, we can conclude that Job, speaking of a spherical Earth, was written roughly 1,000 years before your philosophers ever mentioned their theories.

So far, we have see a spherical Earth that rotates on its own axis and even a hint at gravity. Now we are going to get into where the Bible teaches heliocentricity and not geocentricity.

False.

  • Psa 104:5 says, "He set the Earth on its foundations; it can NEVER BE MOVED."
  • Psa 93:1b and Psa 96:10b says, "The world is firmly established; it cannot be moved."
  • Eccl 1:5 says, "The sun rises and the sun sets, and hurries back to where it rises."
All of which suggest geocentricity, not heliocentricity. If you find heliocentricity in your Scripture, you're going to have to be aware that it contradicts these verses.

Sadly, you are not stating what the Bible teaches. You are regurgitating the teachings of Ptolemaeus and others before him. You, just as they did, are performing eisegesis for the purpose of your own gain. You are out to prove the Bible wrong so you will grasp whatever straws are available. Unfortunately, you are declaring it as God's Word instead of as the false teaching from fallible men that it was. Again, NOWHERE DOES THE BIBLE DECLARE GEOCENTRICITY!!!

You are using verses that describe the Earth as having foundations as well as something that can never be moved. First of all, the Church is described as having a foundation in Christ but it is not teaching that all things revolve around Christ in a physical way. It is simply speaking of the construction of the Earth.

As for your statements of "it cannot be moved," this is hardly an argument. We can see in Ecclesiastes 1:4 that it tells us the Earth remains forever. In other words, God constructed the Earth and it will never be moved; it will always remain. Regardless, you do realize that the bulk of your "support" verses are from poetry and songs right? With this approach, one might argue that Shakespeare literally wanted his friends and countrymen to cut off their ears so he could borrow them. See the absurdity in this approach of using poetry as a sole foundation? Using them to accentuate teachings found elsewhere is fine but when the bulk of your content is from them, it is a poor start to an already weak argument.

While it is true that the early Church did believe in geocentrism, it was not based on the Bible. It was based on the teachings of Galileo. Aristotle believed in geocentrism so the Roman Church actually declared geocentrism as Biblical so as to side with Aristotle when they felt he was being attacked by Galileo all these years later. As a result, they chose to base their interpretation of Scripture off of the science of their day instead of the other way around...much like you are doing right now.

As for your usage of Ecclesiastes 1:5, how does it differ from the language we use even today? We still refer to it as sunrise and sunset. Perhaps we are all geocentrists? Again, absurdity and strawman arguments.

Perhaps I should rephrase my statement. While heliocentricity is not outright stated in Scripture, neither is geocentricity. The geocentric interpretation was a direct result of the scientific teaching of its time and not as a result of what was being said in Scripture.

I'm going to assume that last question was rhetorical, instead of just ridiculous. No, I was not there, but you who was? Plenty of other writers. The first century is one of the best documented periods we have in history. And do you know how many writers in the area at the time of Jesus mention zombies? Just one...Matthew. Even the other gospels make no mention of this, neither does Paul. Surely, if people rose from their graves, milled about for a couple days, and then walked into the city of Jerusalem, someone else would have also had something to say about it...and yet everyone is silent.

So you choose to form an opinion on silence? This is the equivalent of forming an opinion based on nothing. You have taken nothing and made up your mind. You have taken a lack thereof and formed something. Something has come out of nothing. Interesting method.

False. The Bible is a terrible example of a historic document, and it has been proven incorrect on many occasions.

False. It has yet to be disproven. It has only been attacked with haphazard attempts and severe cases of eisegesis from opinionated skeptics.

Perhaps all these posts should be split by a moderator into a new thread though as they have gotten a bit off track from the original topic.
 
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I didn't say I knew the Bible perfectly. I just know it well enough to know that it is absolutely unbelievable.

In other words, you don't really know the Bible at all but choose to know certain parts that "support" whatever predefined view you have come up with.

The Bible doesn't say it's false. Facts do.

Actually, skeptics make this claim. Facts support Scripture 100%. Did you know that skeptics have been proven false by facts for years and years. In fact, many Biblical skeptics, who were held in high esteem for their knowledge and ability to disprove the Bible, were later proven to be wrong as science advanced. Know what that science actually proved? The Bible!
 
Tusk, I just am not going to battle you over your Apostasy. And I say this again, with all do respect to you and your opinion, your Anti-Jesus Rhetoric has no place in a Talk Jesus forum; You would be better suited finding another forum where you talk about atheism or what ever else it is that you are into!...I'm done with your blasphemy of the Holy Spirit!

RJ, I feel the need to interject here with some Scripture.

Luke 23:34
But Jesus was saying, "Father, forgive them; for they do not know what they are doing "

He can't be held to the same standard as us and, technically, this is an open forum with many differing beliefs. We just have to combat the heresy as it pops up but responding with anger is not the way. Again, they can't be held to the same standard yet, in the end, will still be held accountable to God.
 
You don't know anything about me. Do not dare try to take the last 10 years of my service to the King away from me. I absolutely was saved. I believed myself a depraved and wretched sinner, I declared Christ Lord, I believed in my heart, loved and obeyed God, loved people, was baptized, prayed, worshiped, etc. All in service to my God and my Jesus.

I feel a strong need to break this down and comment on it as well as ask you a question based on it.

First, you appear to have a very strong emotional attachment to these 10 years. You speak of God as your King. You speak of Jesus as your Lord. If this is true, why is there such blatant rejection and abuse on your part? You are to the point where you are even denying their existence yet, for some reason, you became VERY defensive when someone tried telling you Jesus was not your Lord. If He was your Lord, why the declaration that the Christian God does not exist? If He does not exist, why the emotional attachment to something false? You seem to want to believe in something and have a difficult time letting go of God yet you also appear to be hiding behind a guise of freedom from a ruse called God. I see two very contradictory behavioral patterns here that I am hoping you can clear up.

My question for you is based on the statement of "your God and your Jesus." Is there a possibility that it was not so much a matter of the God and the Jesus being in your life but rather, a false idea of God and Jesus in your life? Note I am not accusing you of this. I am genuinely asking. I have known people to use this phrase before and it turned out that they had their ideas of God and Jesus while never actually having him. This is why they were let down later on down the road and rejected Him. It was because they never really had Him. They just had their own counterfeit god. Thankfully, he eventually came around and came to realize who God really was. Again, this may not be the case with you. It is just something that stood out to me due to the wording you used.
 
Not only is the Gospel of John written the latest of all four (in fact, it's one of the youngest books in the entire New Testament), it also does not conform to the other three in many aspects. The contradictions found between it and the three synoptic gospels make it unreliable at best with regard to recording what Jesus ACTUALLY said.

Actually, there are zero contradictions between John and the other Gospels although there are many who have attempted to point out inconsistencies such as the writing hanging on the cross. However, taken in proper context with proper background and historical data, all 4 are perfectly in one accord.
 
You're going with John, eh? And you're opting for the NIV, too?! Please, don't insult your own intelligence like that.

Not only is the Gospel of John written the latest of all four (in fact, it's one of the youngest books in the entire New Testament), it also does not conform to the other three in many aspects. The contradictions found between it and the three synoptic gospels make it unreliable at best with regard to recording what Jesus ACTUALLY said.

The operative word in my previous message was not necessarily, "Confirmed," although that is certainly important. In fact, the operative term was "earliest records."

Being that the Gospel wasn't actually written by John, and also was not not likely written by an eye witness (based on the average life expectancy in the area at the time), why do you believe it to be factual?


Or if you prefer, let's assume it is true, and I was wrong.

John 3:5-6...
5 Jesus answered, “Very truly I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of water and the Spirit. 6 Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit.

So...what does being born of water mean? Jesus said Spirit gives birth to spirit...not water gives birth to spirit, and not water and Spirit gives birth to spirit. So which is it, Jesus? This verse also seems to be suggesting that one does not even have a spirit (i.e. a spirit is not born), until the Spirit gives birth to it. This would mean that those who have not been born of the Spirit (or born of water and the Spirit...if you like), don't actually yet have a spirit to begin with.



I want to answer these questions, then I want to ask one question that wish you would answer with the most honesty.

I really don't enjoy beating my head against the wall because you are definitely in a mode of tearing the Bible down no matter how I answer your questions. I mean you ask, I answer and you reject rather than try to reach some common ground. But here I am, beating my head against the wall. But you know, and I really don't expect you to believe this, I honestly love you, even though I hardly know you. If we are going to carry on this dialogue, then let's just agree to be civil with one another!

With regards to your above questions about John. You know, it's not that John said these things, it's that Jesus did and John is not "out of context" with the rest of the Bible.

Jesus was talking to Nicodemus, the only Pharisee, that we read about, that had any interest in who Jesus really was.
Of course, though his curiosity was peaked, Nicodemus was very much stuck in the Law. Jesus was telling him of the New Covenant that was coming. This would be a time, after which going forward, where God would put himself in the Hearts and Minds of Men

Of course everyone has this first birth. Whether a man has his own Spirit, I don't think about because it is not relevant. Jesus was talking about the New Covenant that was coming, the fulfillment of the prophecy some 750 years earlier (from Isaiah) where God promised to put himself in the Hearts and Minds of Men. The second birth is when a person is "Born Again", born of the Spirit of God; and this is the ultimate way to salvation and God.
Jesus was telling Nicodemus that to see the true" Kingdom of God", one must be "Born Again". Nicodemus was astonished and didn't understand, was he supposed to crawl back into the womb to be born again?!

Jesus said no; to be "Born Again", requires 2 births, what we know now which is the requirement to be a Christian and therefore saved for all eternity.




You're going with John, eh? And you're opting for the NIV, too?! Please, don't insult your own intelligence like that.
Friend, I am comfortable in my own skin; I don'y insult my intelligence, it is you who insults it.

Not only is the Gospel of John written the latest of all four (in fact, it's one of the youngest books in the entire New Testament), it also does not conform to the other three in many aspects. The contradictions found between it and the three synoptic gospels make it unreliable at best with regard to recording what Jesus ACTUALLY said.
There is no contradictions, they all tell the story from their point of view, and with regard to the entire Bible, fit in quite nicely
together. I suppose you would also say that since Paul's teachings came much later and that there is very little in comparison to these four youngest books, that he is unreliable too?!

Being that the Gospel wasn't actually written by John, and also was not not likely written by an eye witness (based on the average life expectancy in the area at the time), why do you believe it to be factual? Like I said my friend, you either believe or you don't and if you don't then all this is foolishness to you! True believers will ALL tell you that the entire Bible is God inspired and it is much more important than the one who wrote it!

Let's please stop this "ping-ponging" back and forth you don't believe and I do, O.K....it's settled, you have your right to your opinion and I have a right to mine. But,

Would you please answer this one question with all honesty and truth,
What is your purpose here at Talk Jesus?
 
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While one could pick out small verses, claim inconsistency, and then throw out their own destructive ideas, this is never the best way to go about a proper interpretation of what is being said. That is simply malicious intent with slanderous goals in mind.

I hold that the Bible claims the modern day scientific claim being that the Earth is a sphere. In fact, I claim not only that it says we are a sphere but that we also are not the center of the universe. Revelation 7:1 is clearly not speaking of 4 corners of a square Earth. It is referring to the 4 directions of North, South, East, and West. In fact, a similar phraseology is used to describe God's love in Psalm 103:12.

Firstly, my ideas are not destructive. They are not inflammatory, and your soul is not in danger by considering them. I'm not here to threaten anybody, and I have no malicious intent...so please, relax. I'll be willing to tentatively agree that the 4 corners of the Earth is probably more colloquial, and not necessarily intended to be interpreted literally. I don't know how you can think that science and Scripture agree, since I have found them to be disparate almost entirely across the board. How can you possibly know what these colloquial verses are referring to, though? How is your interpretation any more correct than my own. You really cannot tell me definitively tell me what they meant any more than I can.



As for Matthew 4:8, why make a claim that could easily be proven false by anybody who would have climbed the high mountain? If Matthew was creating such an elaborate hoax, wouldn't he have made a claim that would be impossible to disprove?

Do you actually think these guys knew they were writing something that would become as influential as we have made them? Not likely. Asking why would the author lie, as evidence for its truth is painfully shortsighted. People lie all the time everyday, and always have...even as early as Genesis, for their own personal motivations. Just because you can't think of a reason for him to not make stuff up, doesn't mean there isn't a reason.

However, this is not what he did. He made a claim that could be disproven in a day if someone were to take him literally.

So which parts of the Bible are we supposed to take literally? I think the fact that this claim is so easily disproved demonstrates that He probably didn't care if anybody believed the claims. If I knew I was writing something that was going to be considered inerrant, I definitely would have done more research. God couldn't handle that?

Or we can look at it for what it is. It is not implying all of the kingdoms of the world could literally be seen from that spot on the mountain. It is saying all the greatness that stretched out before them could be his if only he followed Satan (which we know was a lie anyway). Satan was trying to sound as enticing as possible.

How do you know this is what it is saying?! What makes what you're saying any more true than what I'm saying? You're just interpreting scripture to fit your preconceived notion that it must be inerrant. Why?

It is also funny that you should mention Job 38:13 by itself. If you add on the very next verse, you will see the idea of a sphere that totally negates your argument.



Notice that it says the dawn is changed like clay under the seal. The Hebrew word for changed is haphak and literally means to turn. This means it is saying the dawn turns like clay under the seal. The seal they refer to was a cylinder that had an engraving on it. This cylinder would then turn over the soft clay which would emboss a seal to enclose the document. This is describing a spherical Earth that rotates on an axis, much like the cylindrical seal would rotate on its axis. Again, this completely negates any argument that may come from the claim that verse 13 is implying a flat Earth because the author would not claim a flat Earth in one verse only to claim a rotating spherical Earth in the very next verse.

OH MAN. This was my favorite of your responses, because it showed you did your research...just not enough of it. It also showed the cognitive dissonance and mental gymnastics you have to do to fit the Bible in the box of truthiness. I have news for you, friend. A sphere is not a cylinder. It is not similar to a cylinder, it is not almost a cylinder.

Do you know what is a cylinder? A disc...just like I said. Just like they believed the Earth's shape to be. Disc-shaped, not spherical. You've already discovered for yourself that "the circle of the earth" means cylinder, and yet you still believe it actually means sphere. This is a clear scriptural error. If he meant sphere, he could have used the Hebrew word for sphere, "duwr." But instead, he chose the word for disc. Meaning he was wrong.


It should also be noted that the book of Job is the oldest book of the Bible. Being that Genesis is the next oldest book and was written somewhere between 1445-1405 BC, we can conclude that Job, speaking of a spherical Earth, was written roughly 1,000 years before your philosophers ever mentioned their theories.

So far, we have see a spherical Earth that rotates on its own axis and even a hint at gravity. Now we are going to get into where the Bible teaches heliocentricity and not geocentricity.

Considering my response above, you are arguing with a false premise. Job is not talking of a spherical earth. Also, hinting at gravity?! Are you serious? Do you seriously believe that the people of old were so uneducated that they couldn't figure out there was probably some reason they weren't floating away without divine revelation? This is not impressive at all. A God is certainly not necessary to say, "we can't fly, and there's probably a reason for it." Give those goat-herding desert dwellers a little credit.



You are out to prove the Bible wrong so you will grasp whatever straws are available. Unfortunately, you are declaring it as God's Word instead of as the false teaching from fallible men that it was. Again, NOWHERE DOES THE BIBLE DECLARE GEOCENTRICITY!!!

You are using verses that describe the Earth as having foundations as well as something that can never be moved. First of all, the Church is described as having a foundation in Christ but it is not teaching that all things revolve around Christ in a physical way. It is simply speaking of the construction of the Earth.

As for your statements of "it cannot be moved," this is hardly an argument. We can see in Ecclesiastes 1:4 that it tells us the Earth remains forever. In other words, God constructed the Earth and it will never be moved; it will always remain.

Listen, I don't need to prove the Bible wrong. It's already been done. Second, If the Bible states anywhere that the Earth does not move, or that it is fixed, or that it rests on pillars, that is false. The earth does move. It is not in a fixed position. It does not rest on pillars.


Regardless, you do realize that the bulk of your "support" verses are from poetry and songs right? With this approach, one might argue that Shakespeare literally wanted his friends and countrymen to cut off their ears so he could borrow them. See the absurdity in this approach of using poetry as a sole foundation? Using them to accentuate teachings found elsewhere is fine but when the bulk of your content is from them, it is a poor start to an already weak argument.

No. No. No. Of course I realize it is poetry and songs. But you know what? It is making claims of perfection and inerrance...claims that are not supported. Shakespeare is not making any such claims. Shakespeare does not claim to be God-breathed. Of course I wouldn't take Shakespeare literally...C'mon. If his sonnets and plays made claims of perfection, I would scrutinize them just as thoroughly as I have the Bible over the years. If it doesn't meet up with its claim of perfection, then it is imperfect. That's it. No one has to get hurt or upset. We just realize that, and move on with our lives. And again here, you're making us run into the problem of knowing when to read Scripture literally and when to read it figuratively. How can you tell? None of the verses or books say, "This is just figurative, you guys," or "This is actual factual human history." What choice do you have but to read it all figuratively, or all literally. I prefer to read it all literally. And can you blame me?


As for your usage of Ecclesiastes 1:5, how does it differ from the language we use even today? We still refer to it as sunrise and sunset. Perhaps we are all geocentrists? Again, absurdity and strawman arguments.

When you're right, you're right. I'll give you that. Colloquialisms again. But we still don't know how to decide if something should be read literally or figuratively.

Perhaps all these posts should be split by a moderator into a new thread though as they have gotten a bit off track from the original topic.

Haha. True. I realized that, while I was reading before work. Perhaps you're right. This started out as "Was I even ever really a Christian." and now it's morphed into a whole different monster.
 
Actually, there are zero contradictions between John and the other Gospels although there are many who have attempted to point out inconsistencies such as the writing hanging on the cross. However, taken in proper context with proper background and historical data, all 4 are perfectly in one accord.


You're joking, right? Can you answer any of these questions correctly?

How many men were in Jesus' tomb when the women arrived? 1 or 2

On the way to Golgotha where Jesus was to be crucified, who carried his cross? Only Jesus or Simon of Cyrene?

When Jesus sent His disciples out to spread the Gospel to the cities of Israel, did He tell them to take only a staff or to take no staff?

When Jesus and His disciples were walking toward Jerusalem after leaving Bethany that night, Jesus saw a fig tree and cursed it for not having figs. Did the tree wither immediately as they stood and watched, or did it wither over night?

How many women went to Jesus' tomb on Sunday morning? One or more than one?

After Jesus calmed the sea, He and His disciples went to a land called Gadarenes (Gergesenes, in Matt). How many demon-possessed men came out of the tombs? 1 or 2?

When Jesus rode into Jerusalem, was he riding one donkey or two?

How did Judas die? Suicide or did his guts fall out in a field he bought with the silver?

How many days after Jesus' resurrection did He ascend into Heaven? 1 or 40?

When did Satan enter Judas? At the last supper or several days before?

When Jesus was being crucified, were the women standing at the foot of the Cross, near enough to speak to Him, or were they watching from afar?

Did both of the criminals who were crucified with Jesus revile Him, or did only one?

Who was Jesus' grandfather on his father's side? Heli or Jacob?

According to Jesus, is it Ok to call someone a fool?

How many blind men did Jesus heal on His way out of Jericho? 1 or 2?

What did Jesus drink while He was up on the cross? Vinegar and gall? Or wine and myrrh?

What did Jesus do immediately after His baptism?

What did the women who visited the tomb and found Him risen do? Run and tell? or Run and hide?
 
Umm...correct me if I'm wrong, but Jesus has not been confirmed to have said anything about the Holy Spirit or the Trinity in any of the earliest records we have of the Gospels.

Howdy Tusk Barnes!

Well, I think you might want to read this verse...

Jesus mentions the Holy Spirit here...Luke 11:13 IF ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?

Jesus also makes mention of the Holy Spirit here...John 15:26 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:

The Comforter and the Spirit of Truth are names of the Holy Spirit.

TB--Neither does the Old Testament make mention of a Trinity.

Really? Have you ever read Genesis 18:1-3? Let us take a look at these verses...

Genesis 18:1-3...

1. AND THE Lord appeared unto him in the plains of Mamre: and he sat in the tent door in the heat of the day;
2. And he lift up his eyes and looked, and, lo, three men stood by him: and when he saw them, he ran to meet them from the tent door, and bowed himself toward the ground.
3. And said, My Lord, if now I have found favor in thy sight, pass not away, I pray thee, from thy servant:

The Bible says The Lord appeared unto him, that is Abraham, Genesis 17:5, And, Abraham lift up his eyes and saw 3 men standing by him.

The Lord God appeared to Abraham in the form of 3 men. That is, The Father, The Word, and The Holy Spirit appeared unto Abraham.

And, You do not think that the Old Testament mentions the Trinity? Well, You do not have an excuse to think that now.

God Bless You!

Dr. Mike
 
Firstly, my ideas are not destructive. They are not inflammatory, and your soul is not in danger by considering them. I'm not here to threaten anybody, and I have no malicious intent...so please, relax. I'll be willing to tentatively agree that the 4 corners of the Earth is probably more colloquial, and not necessarily intended to be interpreted literally. I don't know how you can think that science and Scripture agree, since I have found them to be disparate almost entirely across the board. How can you possibly know what these colloquial verses are referring to, though? How is your interpretation any more correct than my own. You really cannot tell me definitively tell me what they meant any more than I can.

I actually think this statement is progress. While I cannot definitively say what they meant any more than you can, I can certainly be highly convinced. In fact, it even makes perfect sense when you look at the rest of Scripture in context instead of picking out a few verses to make a point. Like I said, we are both interpreting based on our beliefs. I interpret it based on my belief that it is inerrant and you are interpreting it with your belief that it is erroneous. This is progress. It means while we are highly convinced that we are each right, it also leaves a small window called faith. I have faith it is correct while you have placed you faith in it being incorrect.

Do you actually think these guys knew they were writing something that would become as influential as we have made them? Not likely. Asking why would the author lie, as evidence for its truth is painfully shortsighted. People lie all the time everyday, and always have...even as early as Genesis, for their own personal motivations. Just because you can't think of a reason for him to not make stuff up, doesn't mean there isn't a reason.
\

I don't think he knew quite the extent of what he was writing but I do believe he knew enough to be accurate. Because of his faith, this would have been important to him. If he truly believed Jesus was who he said he was, lying simply would have been intolerable.

So which parts of the Bible are we supposed to take literally? I think the fact that this claim is so easily disproved demonstrates that He probably didn't care if anybody believed the claims. If I knew I was writing something that was going to be considered inerrant, I definitely would have done more research. God couldn't handle that?

The Bible was written with so many writing styles. We have poetry. We have parables. We have historical accounts. We have songs. We have hyperbole. It is unarguably one of the greatest pieces of literature to ever have existed. In fact, even the greatest of skeptics still claim this to be true even if they do not accept it as being the inspired Word of God. To claim that since hyperbole, sarcasm, exaggeration, etc was sometimes used negates its inspired origins really doesn't make any sense.

How do you know this is what it is saying?! What makes what you're saying any more true than what I'm saying? You're just interpreting scripture to fit your preconceived notion that it must be inerrant. Why?

The same could be asked of you. Why?

OH MAN. This was my favorite of your responses, because it showed you did your research...just not enough of it. It also showed the cognitive dissonance and mental gymnastics you have to do to fit the Bible in the box of truthiness. I have news for you, friend. A sphere is not a cylinder. It is not similar to a cylinder, it is not almost a cylinder.

Do you know what is a cylinder? A disc...just like I said. Just like they believed the Earth's shape to be. Disc-shaped, not spherical. You've already discovered for yourself that "the circle of the earth" means cylinder, and yet you still believe it actually means sphere. This is a clear scriptural error. If he meant sphere, he could have used the Hebrew word for sphere, "duwr." But instead, he chose the word for disc. Meaning he was wrong.

Actually, the purpose of it was not to show the shape but rather, the fact that Earth rotates on an axis. If the Bible was making the claim that you say (sat still and did not move), it would not have any reason to speak of it not only as being more than a flat disc but also as having an axis to rotate on. The imagery being used was not meant to convey shapes but was used to relate the rotation of the seal with the rotation of the planet. If it were comparing the Earth to a flat disc, it would completely negate the teaching of a rotational Earth that was just taught in the very same sentence. Once again, I don't think they even knew what they were teaching necessarily. It isn't until the modern age that we can truly understand just how inspired the Scriptures are for only God could have been aware of such knowledge in that day.

Considering my response above, you are arguing with a false premise. Job is not talking of a spherical earth. Also, hinting at gravity?! Are you serious? Do you seriously believe that the people of old were so uneducated that they couldn't figure out there was probably some reason they weren't floating away without divine revelation? This is not impressive at all. A God is certainly not necessary to say, "we can't fly, and there's probably a reason for it." Give those goat-herding desert dwellers a little credit.

If those same people believed a ship going over the horizon was falling off the edge of the Earth, I don't think any more credit is necessary. Again, I do not believe they necessarily understood the scientific implications of what was being revealed in Scripture at the time.

Listen, I don't need to prove the Bible wrong. It's already been done. Second, If the Bible states anywhere that the Earth does not move, or that it is fixed, or that it rests on pillars, that is false. The earth does move. It is not in a fixed position. It does not rest on pillars.

I had a feeling this conversation would eventually go in the "pillar" direction. I know you used the verses earlier but you were not highlighting that stance until now. This is normally where it heads if it does not start there. Once again, this is a construction term used to describe stability and support. For instance, look at 1 Timothy 3:15:

1 Timothy 3:15 said:
but in case I am delayed, I write so that you will know how one ought to conduct himself in the household of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and support of the truth.

Now compare that to Psalm 75:3:

Psalm 75:3 said:
The earth and all who dwell in it melt;
It is I who have firmly set its pillars. Selah.

It is not referring to the Earth sitting in geocentricity. It is referring to God being the Creator and also as Him being the support. That passage describes God destroying the unrighteous while lifting up the righteous. Again, geocontricity is not taught in the Bible. It was taught by men and then the Bible was used to support their theories. The scientists of there day did not create their theories from a pre-existing Biblical stance. They formed their doctrinal stance on their scientific theories. This has led to nothing more than people thinking the Bible says something it doesn't. I've already shown, when taken in proper context with the rest of Scripture, as well as elsewhere where the same terms are used, that it is not teaching geocentricity. Anyone looking at it with an open mind (i.e. without an agenda) should easily see this is the case.

No. No. No. Of course I realize it is poetry and songs. But you know what? It is making claims of perfection and inerrance...claims that are not supported. Shakespeare is not making any such claims. Shakespeare does not claim to be God-breathed. Of course I wouldn't take Shakespeare literally...C'mon. If his sonnets and plays made claims of perfection, I would scrutinize them just as thoroughly as I have the Bible over the years. If it doesn't meet up with its claim of perfection, then it is imperfect. That's it. No one has to get hurt or upset. We just realize that, and move on with our lives. And again here, you're making us run into the problem of knowing when to read Scripture literally and when to read it figuratively. How can you tell? None of the verses or books say, "This is just figurative, you guys," or "This is actual factual human history." What choice do you have but to read it all figuratively, or all literally. I prefer to read it all literally. And can you blame me?

First off, nobody can expect everything in the Bible to be taken literally. For instance, there are many places in Scripture where it is blatantly obvious (and even declared) that parables are being used. In fact, the Psalms are all songs and poetry. Nobody in their right mind would think poetry is to be taken completely literally. God is described as having wings, hands, a face, etc. Imagine what God would look like if we took all that literally?!?!?!?! Or we can take it for what it is. It isn't often that difficult to know when the Bible is literal and when it is using a form of grammar that is figurative. It would have been rather easy for those in that time period to differentiate. For us, even though we are separated by time, we have the luxury of having all of God's Word to look at and compare to gather the proper context.

When you're right, you're right. I'll give you that. Colloquialisms again. But we still don't know how to decide if something should be read literally or figuratively.

And herein lies the challenge.

Haha. True. I realized that, while I was reading before work. Perhaps you're right. This started out as "Was I even ever really a Christian." and now it's morphed into a whole different monster.

I guess we'll have to see how this thread turns out or if the mods split these posts off. Either way, I am enjoying it.
 
You're joking, right? Can you answer any of these questions correctly?

I'll certainly try. I don't have the answers to everything in Scripture but I certainly can appreciate a challenge. My fear is that this was probably a general list that you got from the internet somewhere and not the result of your own dedicated research. As a result, I fear you may not be interested in my answers and will instead find a quick way to brush them off. I guess we shall see.

NOTE: I do wish you had at least added references in them so I didn't have to take all the time to find these supposed "contradictions" before even being able to answer them.

How many men were in Jesus' tomb when the women arrived? 1 or 2

This one isn't too difficult to explain. Luke and Mark both describe the angel as being a man while Matthew and John both describe it as the angel that it was. However, notice that it is Luke and John that speak of 2 "people" while it is Matthew and Mark that only speak of 1. There is all sorts of crisscrossing going on here. Of course, it isn't abnormal for the Bible to speak of angels as men. The point to look at here is not the amount of angels but rather, the angel being focused on. Luke and John both refer to there being 2 angels while Matthew and Mark choose to focus on the "lead" angel who does the talking. This is actually fairly normal in any person's recount of a story even today. One witness might describe the scene in general while another witness may choose to highlight certain facts.

I like how Norman Geisler puts it: "Matthew does not say there was only one angel. John says there were two, and wherever there are two there is always one; it never fails! The critic has to add the word
"only” to Matthew’s account in order to make it contradictory. But in this case, the problem is not with what the Bible actually says, but with what the critic adds to it."

On the way to Golgotha where Jesus was to be crucified, who carried his cross? Only Jesus or Simon of Cyrene?

This is not a contradiction at all. He did carry his own cross. John merely omits the point of how he was helped at a later point. Notice that the entire passage is less detailed than the other Gospel accounts. Again, this is more a matter of how detailed the author is being and not a matter of contradiction.

When Jesus sent His disciples out to spread the Gospel to the cities of Israel, did He tell them to take only a staff or to take no staff?

Between Matthew, Mark, & Luke, at face value, there does appear to be a contradiction. However, when you look at the bigger picture, you can see the point is not in what they are bringing but in how they are trusting God. They were not to take anything but the clothes on their back and a staff which was customary in that day. They were not to take 2 tunics, 2 pairs of sandals, or acquire another staff. The context clearly shows it is more than 1 that they are not supposed to bring and even Matthew points out that they are to not acquire a staff. In fact, even the KJV uses the word in the plural sense. They were to take what they had and trust God on their journey.

When Jesus and His disciples were walking toward Jerusalem after leaving Bethany that night, Jesus saw a fig tree and cursed it for not having figs. Did the tree wither immediately as they stood and watched, or did it wither over night?

If you compare Matthew and Mark, there actually appear to be 2 separate visits into the city. Matthew gives the condensed version whereas Mark gives the full on version. Mark speaks of the fig tree being cursed, them leaving the city, and then seeing the fig tree withered as they went back into the city. Just because Matthew uses the phrase "at once" does not necessarily mean an instantaneous action at that very moment. This confusion stems from the very fact that Matthew's account is the "abridged" version. "At once" was a relative term. Peter saw a tree that was perfectly healthy and then the next morning it was all of a sudden (at once) withered to the roots.

How many women went to Jesus' tomb on Sunday morning? One or more than one?

In Matthew, Mary and Mary Magdalene went. In Mark, it was Mary, Mary Magdalene, and Salome. In Luke, they are simply referred to as "the women." In John, it refers to Mary yet then says Mary Magdalene a few verses later. In John, this could either be referring to Mary and Mary Magdalene or it could be just Mary Magdalene being mentioned. There is no way to know for sure. However, none of this matters. Where there is "Mary and Mary Magdalene," there is surely Mary Magdalene. Where there is "Mary, Mary Magdalene, and Salome," there is surely Mary and Mary Magdalene. Again, this is not a contradiction but a matter of exposed detail. In much the same way, John describes Mary as weeping whereas the other accounts do not. Would any skilled debater count this a contradiction as well? Of course not!

After Jesus calmed the sea, He and His disciples went to a land called Gadarenes (Gergesenes, in Matt). How many demon-possessed men came out of the tombs? 1 or 2?

There were 2. Again, where there are 2, there is undoubtedly one. Yet another matter of detail where the author chose to focus on the more dominant one doing the speaking.

When Jesus rode into Jerusalem, was he riding one donkey or two?

He was riding one donkey but there were 2 in attendance. This is a fulfillment of the prophecy found in Zechariah 9:9. The mother donkey was there possibly to console her offspring who had never been ridden (Mark 11:2). Either way, Matthew 21 does not say Jesus rode 2 donkeys. It says the garments were placed on 2 donkeys and then he sat on the garments (of the colt). Just because the garments were placed on both donkeys does not mean he was sitting on every garment on every donkey all at the same time. This is quite the awkward picture to be honest.

How did Judas die? Suicide or did his guts fall out in a field he bought with the silver?

Both. It appears as if the tree in which he hung himself was on the lot of the field he bought and was overlooking a cliff. More than likely, the rope or branch snapped causing him to fall to the rocks below. This isn't a contradiction but rather, one account complimenting the other.

How many days after Jesus' resurrection did He ascend into Heaven? 1 or 40?

First, Matthew and John don't really give any real info on this. That leaves Mark and Luke. However, it is in Acts 1:3 where it says 40 days. Before going any further, we should also note that the text in Mark cannot really be used. The oldest and most reliable manuscripts do not contain Mark 16:9-20. Because of this (and many other reasons), we cannot form doctrine from those verses because they were probably added in at a later point. This leaves only Luke. Considering it was Luke who wrote both Luke & Acts, we don't really have to wonder if there is a contradiction between 2 authors. It was clearly just his style in which he wrote each of them.

When did Satan enter Judas? At the last supper or several days before?

All of the above. John 13:2 brings us to the feast. However, it says that the devil had already put the plan to betray Jesus into Judas' heart. In Luke 22:3, Satan himself possessed Judas when he went to speak with the chief priests. In John 13:27, Judas was again possessed by Satan at the feast. Again, both Luke and John compliment each other. Luke says it happened days prior. John not only says it happened at the feast but that it had also occurred days prior.

When Jesus was being crucified, were the women standing at the foot of the Cross, near enough to speak to Him, or were they watching from afar?

We know there were many women who had come to the crucifixion. It is apparent that Mary and John had gone up close at some point while the others stayed back.

Did both of the criminals who were crucified with Jesus revile Him, or did only one?

From the looks of things, they were probably both reviling him and then one of them repented shortly thereafter.

Who was Jesus' grandfather on his father's side? Heli or Jacob?

Jacob was his blood grandfather. Heli was his grandfather-in-law. Luke does not have any women in his genealogy in chapter 3 so he substitutes Joseph for Mary. This is technically not incorrect as, like I stated, Heli was Joseph's father through marriage.

According to Jesus, is it Ok to call someone a fool?

I can only assume you are referring to Jesus' condemnation in Matthew 5:22 versus his calling people blind fools in 23:17. The term for fool literally meant empty headed. In Matthew 5:22, he was speaking of the big picture of anger being equated to murder. This was an unrighteous anger that we feel as fallen sinners. Jesus was not telling us by simply saying the word fool, we will be condemned to Hell. He was speaking of the dangers of hatred in our heart toward our fellow brother. Full context clearly shows this. As for 23:17, this was a righteous anger on the part of Jesus. He did not hate the people but absolutely hated what they stood for and hated their blindness. Being that Jesus was God, he knew the hearts of every man and hated sin. No contradiction there.

How many blind men did Jesus heal on His way out of Jericho? 1 or 2?

Simply another case of detail versus lack of detail and where the author chose to place his focus.

What did Jesus drink while He was up on the cross? Vinegar and gall? Or wine and myrrh?

Matthew calls it wine and gall while Mark calls it wine and myrrh. Gall simply meant that it was something bitter. Myrrh was a numbness inducing agent that was often mixed in with wine and given to crucifixion victims so that they would not struggle as much. Even in Proverbs 31:6, it says to give strong drink to those who are perishing. Again, there is no contradiction here.

What did Jesus do immediately after His baptism?

Again, this comes down to writing style. Mark uses the word "immediately" more than the other 3 Gospels combined. It was all a part of his writing style which kept readers at a fast pace. This kept in line with his target audience being the fast paced and action-oriented Romans.

What did the women who visited the tomb and found Him risen do? Run and tell? or Run and hide?

There are many possibilities here. Notice that it never really says they told the disciples in Matthew. It says they ran to tell them but it never says they actually did tell him. This could mean they never really did at all or, perhaps, they told later on. However, there is the question of why would they run to tell if they were so afraid that they didn't want to tell anybody. Remember, there were multiple women there. It could have been that Matthew focused on the women who went to tell whereas Mark focused on the women who were afraid. There is no way for us to know for sure.
 
Tusk Barnes, I give this for your consideration. I read through most of this and see some very insightful commentary. Please allow me to add to that with some long-winded comments. I do not know you, that I would want to lie to you: the following is truth.

As for Christianity, I got there the hard way. I led a life of wretched excess, base debauchery and disgusting selfish perversion to the best of my ability. That insanity finally ended in a borrowed bed in a back room as I lay alone, suffering anaphylactic shock. It took a while to realize I was completely paralyzed, nothing but my eyesight & internal organs working. Able to move my eyes, I looked up on the wall and there was a well known picture, of Jesus kneeling at a big rock, praying in the Garden of Gethsemane.

By my upbringing I knew who He was to some extent, the 'Son of God' and sacrifice for sin, and knew of that sacrifice. I also knew I wasn't headed for heaven. As darkness closed in on a bright sunshiny day, I felt deep remorse and spoke to Him, apologizing for having offended Him and His Father in my entire life's work, by the huge expanse of my extraordinary sins. I didn't know, had no idea that this was something called repentance. I wasn't begging or even hoping for a reprieve, but instead knew for sure I was headed for hell, period. Little pinpricks of light danced across my darkness, then my chest refused to rise for another breath, I'd breathed my last. The heart then pounded, desperate to pump more oxygen but it wasn't there. The heart stopped and I heard the most complete silence I've ever heard in my life, at the end of it. Death came swiftly.

Following that I went on a journey, as a disembodied spiritual being. I will not & cannot relate the experience here. Someone spoke to me. After about 25 minutes, a brilliant flash of light beyond description and sound of explosion like I'd never heard before, like a 12 gauge shotgun blast right beside each ear, and BOOM I was back in the bed! I lay for a few moments in total quiet then my chest slowly rose, taking in a marvelous deep breath of fresh air. A few moments later my heart suddenly began to beat quietly again in that wonderous soft rythmic beat. I was alive!

I got myself up very slowly out of bed, no longer paralyzed, in extreme pain from death. With great difficulty I drove to a place I knew, overlooking a lake. Normally a 10 minute drive, it took over 30 minutes. Got out and staggered over to a picnic table and leaned against, afraid to sit down that I couldn't get up. Sunlight danced on the water below, and a low hanging branch from a tree rubbed against my forehead. A light breeze blew and tickled my right ear but no strength to even rub my ear or move my head away from the branch. I spoke to God, "I don't know who you are, or what you are, or why you are. But I know you are: because you just returned me to life. I was defrauded, tricked and deceived by men and women in black who lied to me about you. I know nothing about you. I ask that you, and only you, would reveal to me exactly what and who you are, everything I may know, and what my purpose is that you've restored me for. Tell me that, show me that, and I will follow you for all the days of my life. That's the deal, take it or leave it." He took it.

As I looked out on the water I saw the impossible: the sun glistened on wave caps of the lake below me, and to my amazement, they slowly began to form the visage of a human face. I looked and saw that face shimmering on the water, somehow familiar, as the leaves of the branch hanging down began to caress my feverish forehead. The gentle breeze became a soft whisper and then a still, soft voice, "Be still, and know that I AM God." I had never heard or seen those words before in my life.

I was alive, and I believed.

Following this another journey began. I got a Bible, which I'll name for a reason seen later, 'The Hebrew-Greek Key Study Bible, King James Version, Zodhiates original and complete system of Bible study, compiled & edited by Spiros Zodhiates, World Bible Publishers.'

Still suffering from the ravages of death I attempted to read. After death I had something called monocular dyplopia, which causes multiple vision in each eye, as 4 of everything seen with each eye, a total of 8 overlapping pictures. I had to take my specs off, cover my left eye, hold the Bible about 4 inches from my face and squint at each word, one at a time. I could dimly see the first and last letter of each word, sort of, and a swirling blurry mass in between. "Let's see, it starts with an 's', ends with a 't' and its about 5 letters, so it's shaft, or short, or spent, or slept"....then on to the next word. From that I went back & pieced the guesses together in my mind, trying to form an intelligible sentence from them. It took a month but I read it cover to cover.

I prayed, "God, I can't understand, can't figure it out! Please, I prayed you'd reveal yourself to me and I still don't know you! Please, please help me!" The quadruple vision in each eye changed to double. Now using the same method I could read the words and patch the sentences together. I prayed again, "Lord, please, please, it still doesn't make sense! I know a little now, but please, tell me the whole story, WHO YOU ARE!" The vision changed to double vision, and I read a third time.

This time it made sense, but I couldn't get the whole picture clearly, I read it a fourth time then again for a fifth reading. Almost a year had passed. I knew my Lord God. The sixth time I read it was to nail down details & cross reference, which brings me to the point of this note to you. The Bible had center-of-page references on almost every verse. Read a verse, follow the numbers and letters given, and every other related verse, wherever it is in the Bible, is given! Wow, never noticed that!

Starting on a Friday morning, I chose a verse and chased the cross refences. Each of those of course had cross references. I searched through that day, then through Friday night, then all day Saturday, then all through Saturday night into Sunday morning. At daybreak Sunday morning I had seen and known. I collapsed beside my bed in tears, overwhelmed, exhausted, amazed and sobbing deeply before my God at what I'd found. That which I had found was this: Every single verse in the Bible [though comprised of 66 books by 44 different authors, written over thousands of years, in different countries and in different languages under incredibly diverse circumstances, the object of total destruction by countless evil people and devils] was intimately and directly and perfectly related to every single other verse in the entire Bible!

I discovered that it was one uninterrupted single conversation pouring out from the heart of God to man since the creation of the world!

Therefore, based on these foregoing things, I humbly suggest to you, sir, that you empty yourself as much as is possible from our common enemy of self and pray humbly before God one more time. Ask Him to please show you the whole Truth of His Word, and GET YOURSELF A REFERENCE BIBLE AND TEST THIS FOR YOURSELF!

I absolutely guarantee, with no reservations, that God, the one Holy Almighty Eternal God of Truth, will blow your mind right out of your skull. I also personally guarantee that He loves you beyond human comprehension: that He would bother to send me here to speak to you, even in your rebellion...
 
Devils never sleep. Following the above events I went on another long journey of discovery and then evangelical ministry. About 12 years after being restored to life the devils struck again. I was hit with a toxic chemical exposure which nearly killed me again. The results of that, over time, was a loss of over 50% of my IQ and comprehension, loss of vocabulary & memory, loss of speech ability or reading or writing and extreme damage to the body. The devils didn't wnat this man out there witnessing to the world!

Then I had 3 strokes, and maybe 300+ TIA's. I did not recognize the face I saw in a mirror. Vaguely familiar, but I just couldn't place it. Found out my name from my drivers license, and the picture showed that the guy I saw in the mirror was apparently me. Sometime before, a man, Bijan, had made me a plaque. It was framed in blackened brass, with a copper sheet in the frame, and 2 words in fine gothic script in gold standing out from the copper. Those 2 words said:

I BELIEVE.

I reached a point where in my entire mind's resources all that I could comprehend was those two words, 'I BELIEVE'. The Lord sent me amongst good Christians who gave me a place to live and provided for my every worldy need, asking nothing in return. "You can stay here, and just relax, and let God do His Perfect Work." I didn't understand but I Believed, and I stayed, and He did His work.

It has now been 8 more years since I was attacked and left virtually dead for usefulness in this world. Our Lord Jesus Christ has continually worked in me when doctors had no clue, said all was completely hopeless. As you may notice, God has been somewhat busy, restoring my mind & intellect and ability to communicate. He has nurtured me every moment of every day, without fail, seeing to my entire need in every way.

TRY TO CONVINCE ME THAT GOD IS NOT! HAH!

The bottom line is: He went to all that trouble just so I could pull out the keyboard on the computer He gave me and pound on the keys to speak God's Truth to you and others of His children!

I serve a Mighty, Loving God.

JDFree
 
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