Can A Christian Lose Their Salvation?

[El Hombre viejo]

Sarcasm

Paul taught quite strongly about us staying clear of guile. Why would he use sarcasm then? Sarcasm is guile. Paul did live what he preached. Oh I doubt not that he did slip on occasion but not as a rule. When he did he got right again right quick.

My point is Paul was not being sarcastic in any way when he said what he did in Heb 6:4-6. He was saying something very profound.

 

[RJ]

Paul taught quite strongly about us staying clear of guile. Why would he use sarcasm then? Sarcasm is guile. Paul did live what he preached. Oh I doubt not that he did slip on occasion but not as a rule. When he did he got right again right quick.

My point is Paul was not being sarcastic in any way when he said what he did in Heb 6:4-6. He was saying something very profound.

I am going to try one more time, you guys have worn me down!

Yes, in his sarcasm, He was indeed being profound.

Yes sarcasm, defined as an Ironic remark, look at Websters Dictionary. Why he, and I do believe it was Paul, why he used this irony to prove a point, I don't know, I wish he hadn't but he did; perhaps it was a form of speech that they were accustom to and could easily understand. I know this, these ancients were superior to us linguistically and maybe that is our stumbling block.

I have been trying to explain this off and on for several years now and I find those who are adamantly opposed. But, I will try this one last time and let's focus on the irony. And please, the suggestion of sarcasm or irony here in no way subverts the Gospel.


Hebrews 6

1 Therefore let us move beyond the elementary teachings about Christ and be taken forward to maturity, not laying again the foundation of repentance from acts that lead to death,[a] and of faith in God, 2 instruction about cleansing rites, the laying on of hands, the resurrection of the dead, and eternal judgment. 3 And God permitting, we will do so.

4 It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5 who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age 6 and who have fallen[c] away, to be brought back to repentance. To their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace.

1. impossible
Yes, impossible for a truly saved, "Born Again" believer to fall away...no irony here!

2. who have tasted the heavenly gift
Yes, a true believer that has been indwelt with the Spirit of God....no irony here!

3. fallen[c] away
This is a stumbling block for many people because they use the wrong connotation. This is a term that many people use to describe how they pull back or drift away form God. And when they do it creates a Negative and they can be put into bondage over it. They actually feel that Hebrews 6 is saying that you can pull back from God and lose your salvation and. worse yet , they feel it says that your done for because you can not be brought back into repentance or saved again. Satin loves this thinking!
This is not how Paul uses it. His fallen away is complete and it describes an Apostate. Please look at the RSV, it even uses the word Apostasy in verse 6. This is critical, remember that Apostasy is "All Out" rejection of Christ like satin or a modern Atheist.

4. brought back to repentance

Now, THIS is the "Irony"!
Paul is saying not that you, a believer can pull back from God to the point of never being allowed to come back into repentance again, as long as we breathe, we can be saved.
What Paul is saying these people that proclaimed to be Christians, these spies from the Levitical Temple, these Apostates, rejectionists of Christ can not be brought back from a place that they have never been..they were not saved in the first place!

Now listen to this, If they were truly Christians then there is no sacrifices left for them,

" verse 6: to their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace" and Christ is not going to climb back up on the cross for them.

Paul is saying that if you are a true Christian, "Born Again" there is no going back to a point of "all out rejection" of Christ like these spies were doing.
For a true Christian to move back into Apostasy, that would be like requiring Jesus to be sacrificed again in order for them to be saved and that is an impossible way to be brought back into repentance.

We Christians all have our ups and downs, some more, some less but we all have them, this in no way means that we have fallen away to non-repentance.... "For there is no condemnation for those who are in Christ".....there is plenty condemnation for an Apostate.

I have talked to people before that said that they where Christians and converted to Islam. I say that is impossible from what Paul says here in Hebrews 6, these people that I have talked to were not saved in the first place and were never Christians BUT IN NAME ONLY..... YOU CAN NOT PARTAKE OF THE SPIRIT OF GOD AND THEN TURN TO ISLAM!!! OR APOSTASY!!

 

[El Hombre viejo]

I am going to try one more time, you guys have worn me down!

Yes, in his sarcasm, He was indeed being profound.

Yes sarcasm, defined as an Ironic remark, look at Websters Dictionary. Why he, and I do believe it was Paul, why he used this irony to prove a point, I don't know, I wish he hadn't but he did; perhaps it was a form of speech that they were accustom to and could easily understand. I know this, these ancients were superior to us linguistically and maybe that is our stumbling block.

I have been trying to explain this off and on for several years now and I find those who are adamantly opposed. But, I will try this one last time and let's focus on the irony. And please, the suggestion of sarcasm or irony here in no way subverts the Gospel.


Hebrews 6

1 Therefore let us move beyond the elementary teachings about Christ and be taken forward to maturity, not laying again the foundation of repentance from acts that lead to death,[a] and of faith in God, 2 instruction about cleansing rites, the laying on of hands, the resurrection of the dead, and eternal judgment. 3 And God permitting, we will do so.

4 It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5 who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age 6 and who have fallen[c] away, to be brought back to repentance. To their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace.

1. impossible
Yes, impossible for a truly saved, "Born Again" believer to fall away...no irony here!

2. who have tasted the heavenly gift
Yes, a true believer that has been indwelt with the Spirit of God....no irony here!

3. fallen[c] away
This is a stumbling block for many people because they use the wrong connotation. This is a term that many people use to describe how they pull back or drift away form God. And when they do it creates a Negative and they can be put into bondage over it. They actually feel that Hebrews 6 is saying that you can pull back from God and lose your salvation and. worse yet , they feel it says that your done for because you can not be brought back into repentance or saved again. Satin loves this thinking!
This is not how Paul uses it. His fallen away is complete and it describes an Apostate. Please look at the RSV, it even uses the word Apostasy in verse 6. This is critical, remember that Apostasy is "All Out" rejection of Christ like satin or a modern Atheist.

4. brought back to repentance

Now, THIS is the "Irony"!
Paul is saying not that you, a believer can pull back from God to the point of never being allowed to come back into repentance again, as long as we breathe, we can be saved.
What Paul is saying these people that proclaimed to be Christians, these spies from the Levitical Temple, these Apostates, rejectionists of Christ can not be brought back from a place that they have never been..they were not saved in the first place!

Now listen to this, If they were truly Christians then there is no sacrifices left for them,

" verse 6: to their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace" and Christ is not going to climb back up on the cross for them.

Paul is saying that if you are a true Christian, "Born Again" there is no going back to a point of "all out rejection" of Christ like these spies were doing.
For a true Christian to move back into Apostasy, that would be like requiring Jesus to be sacrificed again in order for them to be saved and that is an impossible way to be brought back into repentance.

We Christians all have our ups and downs, some more, some less but we all have them, this in no way means that we have fallen away to non-repentance.... "For there is no condemnation for those who are in Christ".....there is plenty condemnation for an Apostate.

I have talked to people before that said that they where Christians and converted to Islam. I say that is impossible from what Paul says here in Hebrews 6, these people that I have talked to were not saved in the first place and were never Christians BUT IN NAME ONLY..... YOU CAN NOT PARTAKE OF THE SPIRIT OF GOD AND THEN TURN TO ISLAM!!! OR APOSTASY!!

Dear friend I am not trying to wear you down. Still the verses do not say it's impossible for this person to fall away....It's saying that IF this person Does fall away. Break the sentence down by commas. Its the grammar.
Still its my belief that the chances would be slim that anyone learning to walk in the power of the Spirit, and would still fall away. The verse says "if it happened"

 

[RJ]

Dear friend I am not trying to wear you down. Still the verses do not say it's impossible for this person to fall away....It's saying that IF this person Does fall away. Break the sentence down by commas. Its the grammar. [/COLOR]
Still its my belief that the chances would be slim that anyone learning to walk in the power of the Spirit, and would still fall away. The verse says "if it happened"

[/COLOR]

Still the verses do not say it's impossible for this person to fall away....It's saying that IF this person Does fall away.

Your just can't be reading what I say time, time, time and again!

YES, it does say if!!! IT IS A HYPOTHETICAL BECAUSE IT CANT REALLY HAPPEN!!!

I will say it again for the umpteen time, Paul's letter addressed to the Churches in Jerusalem was for the saved Church! Paul is talking to the saved about the unsaved. Not one millisecond is he talking about the saved falling away. In fact, he is essentially telling the saved that it is impossible for them to fall away to Apostasy.

And he is telling the saved church that the hypothetical "IF" is about the unsaved. He is telling the Saved Church that it is impossible for these unsaved, infiltrators from the Temple, to be brought back from where they have never been!!! It is a conundrum a sort of paradox. For the love of my sweet and loving Lord, how can anyone be brought back to a state of repentance when they never where there in THE FIRST PLACE!?!?!?!?

Still its my belief that the chances would be slim that anyone learning to walk in the power of the Spirit, and would still fall away. Amen, Praise the Lord and pass the Biscuits!!!
LOL, LOL,LOL,LOL!!!!!!!! Exactly, but Paul didn't say slim, he said IMPOSSIBLE!!!!:surrender::surrender::surrender::surrender::surrender:

 

[El Hombre viejo]

[/COLOR][/COLOR]

Still the verses do not say it's impossible for this person to fall away....It's saying that IF this person Does fall away.

Your just can't be reading what I say time, time, time and again!

YES, it does say if!!! IT IS A HYPOTHETICAL BECAUSE IT CANT REALLY HAPPEN!!!

I will say it again for the umpteen time, Paul's letter addressed to the Churches in Jerusalem was for the saved Church! Paul is talking to the saved about the unsaved. Not one millisecond is he talking about the saved falling away. In fact, he is essentially telling the saved that it is impossible for them to fall away to Apostasy.

And he is telling the saved church that the hypothetical "IF" is about the unsaved. He is telling the Saved Church that it is impossible for these unsaved, infiltrators from the Temple, to be brought back from where they have never been!!! It is a conundrum a sort of paradox. For the love of my sweet and loving Lord, how can anyone be brought back to a state of repentance when they never where there in THE FIRST PLACE!?!?!?!?

Still its my belief that the chances would be slim that anyone learning to walk in the power of the Spirit, and would still fall away. Amen, Praise the Lord and pass the Biscuits!!!
LOL, LOL,LOL,LOL!!!!!!!! Exactly, but Paul didn't say slim, he said IMPOSSIBLE!!!!:surrender::surrender::surrender::surrender::surrender:

LOL I agree Its not worth causing hard feelings or frustration. Lets let it drop. Hugs on ya.

 

[Brighthouse]

The Sower soeth the Word mark 4:1-20 Before Jesus tells his disciple the understanding of this parable, he quotes from Isaiah 6:9-10 telling them" while seeing, they may see, and not precieve,and while hearing, they may hear and not understand, otherwise they may return and be forgiven. Then he asked his disciple do you understand this parable?verse 14 The sower soeth the Word,verse 15 These are the ones who are beside the road, where the Word is sown;and when they hear( we know faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the Word) Satan comes and takes away the Word which has been sown in them.The Word says all meaning everyone who calls upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. ARE!! But as we see hear also,those who believe can depart from the Faith.verse 16 In a similar way,these are the ones on whom seed was sown on the rockey places,who, when they hear the Word immediately recieve it with joy;verse 17 and they meaning the people who believe,have no root in themselves,but are only temporary,then when affiction or persecution arises because of the Word,immediaely they fall away.verse 18 And others are the ones on whom seed was sown among thorns; these are the ones who have heard the Word,verse 19 but the worries of the world,and the deceitfulness of riches,and the desires for other things enter in and choke the Word,and it become unfruitfull.they to believed but something took them away from the Lord,as spoken here.verse 20 And those are the ones on whom seed was sown on the good soil;and they hear the word and accept it,and bear fruit,thirty sixty and a hundred fold. To me it is clear,Matt 18:11 says Jesus came to save that which was lost. But we decide how much fruit we will bear,or even if we will lose that which was given by Jesus to us.The point to Jesus dieing on the cross,was to me to fulfil the law,which he did by dieing,when he rose again,we did as well with him,for we know it is by grace we are saved through faith, and not of works lest any man should boast,but the fruit that we bear,shows our own selfs,and others just what we do believe in Jesus.Judas was such a man,for he was a disciple of Jesus,and one who like the others was a partaker,But Judas was a thief( john 12:6) ( john 13:29) he had free will to do so.Just as we all do. because of his constant sin, we find he allowed and gave the devil an oppertinuity( eph 4:27) and then became possessed by the devil himself!( Luke 22:3) in matt 26:24 Jesus says WOE to that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! It would have been good for that man never to be born. Jesus then latter tells his disciples 24:31 you will all fall away because of me this night. for it is written, I will strike down the shepherd,and the sheep of th flock shall be scattered.Later Peter upset at this,tells Jesus he will not deny him. You Peter, jesus says in verse 34 you peter will deny me 3 times! So we can fall away,being saved,we can also repent. hebrews 6 to me is for those who have done what judas did,they flat out deny Jesus for all time.the point to me from this, is if we do not watch and care for our fruit,we can lose our salvation,because in Matt 7:21 it states very clear to me,not everyone who says to me Lord Lord will enter the kingdom of heaven,BUT he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven,for if we truly believe in our Jesus we will have fruit,some 30,sixty, and one hundred fold. This is my view on Once saved always saved. For who but God himself can ever judge another man salvation or not? Not me! Thanks for your understanding of my view.

 

[Tusk Barnes]

I was saved on January 14, 2001.

But a couple of months ago (May, that is), I realized I no longer believed anything I once did. I'm proud to say that I have no need of salvation, and so have renounced my faith. There's nothing to fear, guys. You too can lose your salvation! It's even easier than accepting a "free" gift.

 

[rojoloco]

I agree that there is no way to be brought back. You are either saved or you are not. There is no flip flopping. I have been saying this the whole time.

Since you say that we agree above, then would you agree that the writer of Hebrews 6, whether it be Paul or someone one else, is writing to the true believers of the Jerusalem Churches and telling THEM, about the false, Apostate non-believers that were among them and trying to get these true believers to participate in Levitical Temple sacrifices?

I would definitely say this was one of the primary points of the epistle. There were obviously those legalistic Jews who were combining the old system with the new and were getting immature believers to practice these rituals when they were free from them. However, I also believe the author is writing to those who are on the fence and urging them to believe before it is too late. Lastly, I believe the author was using an example of apostates to warn the first 2 groups of what not to become.

 

[rojoloco]

Paul taught quite strongly about us staying clear of guile. Why would he use sarcasm then? Sarcasm is guile. Paul did live what he preached. Oh I doubt not that he did slip on occasion but not as a rule. When he did he got right again right quick.

My point is Paul was not being sarcastic in any way when he said what he did in Heb 6:4-6. He was saying something very profound.

Actually, one of Paul's clear styles of writing was to use hyperbole. He had a very unique style of writing. For instance, you can see many areas where he "flatters" his audience to gain their ears and then corrects them after he has their attention. You can also see many places, especially in 1 Corinthians, where he uses hyperbole to make his point. This was not uncommon in his writing at all.

 

[rojoloco]

Dear friend I am not trying to wear you down. Still the verses do not say it's impossible for this person to fall away....It's saying that IF this person Does fall away. Break the sentence down by commas. Its the grammar.
Still its my belief that the chances would be slim that anyone learning to walk in the power of the Spirit, and would still fall away. The verse says "if it happened"

Brother, this is where I must say the burden of proof is on you. While I disagree with RJ's interpretation of sarcasm being used, it is still an a worthy argument in the end. However, your argument is not supported by Scripture in any way whatsoever. You must always let Scripture interpret Scripture. If there is a contradiction of any variety, one of 2 situations has arisen:

1) There is something in the context to be figured out
2) The original interpretation is incorrect

Never will the Word of God contradict itself. Therefore, in light of the many, many verses that have been posted guaranteeing eternal security, you are now in the hot seat of proving your stance. However, not only do you have to show verses that support your stance but, since our verses already stand, you are obligated to show how we took them out of context.

 

[kevinlb63]

Lets make it simpel

If you give your life to jesus and you sin the rest of your life !!!! Untill you die and don,t ask to be forgiven! Do you think he will still now you!. It says no one can take you out of his hand !!!!! But what people dont understand is you!! Can take yourself out of his hand..... You have to do it yourself!!!!

 

[rojoloco]

I was saved on January 14, 2001.

But a couple of months ago (May, that is), I realized I no longer believed anything I once did. I'm proud to say that I have no need of salvation, and so have renounced my faith. There's nothing to fear, guys. You too can lose your salvation! It's even easier than accepting a "free" gift.

This is deeply saddening news to be honest. To be even more honest, with my deep convictions in the truth of Scripture, there are only 2 options here.

1) You truly have the Spirit in you but are currently being dragged down by the cares of the world only to be lifted up again at some point in the future (John 6:39; Luke 15:11-32)

2) You never had the Spirit residing in you (1 Cor 6:19), were only for a season (Luke 8:13-14), only tasted the Spirit while never actually feasting on Him (Hebrews 6:4-6), and have made the gravest mistake of your life (Luke 12:5).

 

[rojoloco]

If you give your life to jesus and you sin the rest of your life !!!! Untill you die and don,t ask to be forgiven! Do you think he will still now you!. It says no one can take you out of his hand !!!!! But what people dont understand is you!! Can take yourself out of his hand..... You have to do it yourself!!!!

There are many things wrong with this unbiblical stance:

1) It assumes you are not counted among the "no one" that is spoken of
2) It assumes your power is stronger than God's grip
3) It assumes your power is stronger than God's promises
4) It assumes the atonement was not actually atoning at all
5) It assumes justification is not once for all
6) It assumes you can flip flop and re-crucify Christ as you please
7) It assumes eternal life (which is spoken of as already haven been given and not something to be achieved) is not eternal at all
8) It assumes God is dependent upon man to achieve His decrees
9) It assumes God is not the sole cause, carrier, and securer of our salvation

I could keep going but I'll stop here for the sake of having already made my point.

 

[kevinlb63]

Luke 5:8 (Wey) When Simon Peter saw this, he fell down at the knees of Jesus, and exclaimed, "Master, leave my boat, for I
am a sinful man."

Simon Peter's response is part of anyone's reaction to a real encounter with God. By seeing Jesus he was "undone" by the
resultant heightened sense of his own depravity; how far He was from the glory of God.
It is one thing to play with words and self deception concerning our state before the Holy One; it is another to come up
against His pure goodness. What we thought we wanted now makes us feel dirty. When goodness is laced with badness it is
easier to take, easier to relate to. But pure goodness is alien to us. And we know God is powerful, but to experience that
power brings our own insufficiency into the light. We tend to recoil from what we also most want.
Jesus did not leave Simon Peter for his honest reaction, speaking words of comfort instead and calling him as an apostle.
For Peter's will power had come up against a greater will. But Peter's "reaction" remained for a deeper "treatment" at a
later date.
Are we greater than Simon Peter? Are we less in need of being saved "in the highest way" than him? Will we not have to be
cured of this same problem in the future, even after hearing words of comfort? Even after confessing Christ? Even after
walking in intimate fellowship with our Lord?

Luke 22:31-34 (Phi) "Oh, Simon, Simon, do you know that Satan has asked to have you all to sift like wheat?--but I have
prayed for you that you may not {lose your faith}. Yes, when you have turned back to me, you must strengthen these brothers
of yours." Peter said to him, "Lord, I am ready to go to prison, or even to die with you!" "I tell you, Peter," returned
Jesus, "before the {**** crows} today you will deny three times that you know me!"
simon peter denyed jesus 3 times .... some one who loved jesus denyed him ! this is proof some one can be saved and then
deny jesus

 

[rojoloco]

simon peter denyed jesus 3 times .... some one who loved jesus denyed him ! this is proof some one can be saved and then
deny jesus

First off, you are assuming Peter was saved in the NT sense. This was not the case. He was saved by his faith in the OT sense. Peter did not have the Holy Spirit in him, had not been regenerated, and did not have faith in the resurrection of Christ because he did not yet understand it. Peter's denial of Christ was a true denial but take note that it was already known by Christ to be a temporary thing. Christ knew Peter's faith (in the NT sense) would flourish because he had prayed it to be so. There was no chance of Peter not being saved and persevering because Christ had deemed it to be so. Peter was called by God, used by God, saved by God, preserved by God, and rewarded with Heaven by God.

 

[kevinlb63]

you missed the point it does not have any thing to do with the old or the new testiment ! it is the point that even simon peter who had touch and seen and loved jesus could deny him! and did deny him!!! 3 times

 

[rojoloco]

It has everything to do with the OT versus NT. We are not discussing whether or not someone can deny Jesus. We are discussing whether or not one can lose their salvation. Scripture is very clear that true salvation can never be lost. However, if one attempts to sin willingly as a result, it is evidence they were never truly saved...not that they removed themselves from God's hand. When I hear people say they took themselves out of His hand, I always tell them they were never really in it and were only tap dancing on His open palm.

 

[kevinlb63]

The unforgivable sin of speaking against the Holy Spirit has been interpreted in various ways, but the true meaning cannot contradict other Scripture. It is unequivocally clear that the one unforgivable sin is permanently rejecting Christ (John 3:18; 3:36). Thus, speaking against the Holy Spirit is equivalent to rejecting Christ with such finality that no future repentance is possible. 'My spirit shall not always strive with man,' God said long ago (Genesis 6:3). god jesus and the holy spirit are one intity. when simon denyed him he denyed them all.. and if he belived in him why did he deny him

 

[rojoloco]

And this is where we disagree on what the unforgivable sin is. I do not believe it to be a sin at all to be honest. This is supported by the fact that no one sin is greater than another and no one sin deserves more forgiveness than another. If one asks for forgiveness, it will happen regardless what the sin was. The unforgivable sin was not a sin but a state of hopelessness. People speak against the Holy Spirit all the time only to be saved at a later date. The unforgivable sin is the state of hopelessness where one has all the intellectual knowledge possible and makes the informed decision to reject Christ. If, after all their knowledge, they still reject him, there is no chance of them ever accepting him as Lord and Savior because they can never know more than they already know.

Peter denied Christ 3 times yet he went on to be a great apostle who led many to Christ. This is further evidence that the unforgivable sin is, in fact, not a sin at all. Even more so, it is support that one cannot truly lose their salvation. If it is "lost", they never had it to begin with regardless of how convincing the counterfeit may have been.

 

[kevinlb63]

And this is where we disagree on what the unforgivable sin is. I do not believe it to be a sin at all to be honest. This is supported by the fact that no one sin is greater than another and no one sin deserves more forgiveness than another. If one asks for forgiveness, it will happen regardless what the sin was. The unforgivable sin was not a sin but a state of hopelessness. People speak against the Holy Spirit all the time only to be saved at a later date. The unforgivable sin is the state of hopelessness where one has all the intellectual knowledge possible and makes the informed decision to reject Christ. If, after all their knowledge, they still reject him, there is no chance of them ever accepting him as Lord and Savior because they can never know more than they already know.

Peter denied Christ 3 times yet he went on to be a great apostle who led many to Christ. This is further evidence that the unforgivable sin is, in fact, not a sin at all. Even more so, it is support that one cannot truly lose their salvation. If it is "lost", they never had it to begin with regardless of how convincing the counterfeit may have been.

Many will say to Me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied (preached) in Thy name? and in Thy name have cast out demons, and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you; depart from Me, ye that work iniquity." Yes, my reader, it is possible to work in the name of Christ, and even to preach in His name, and though the world knows us, and the Church knows us, yet to be unknown to the Lord! How necessary it is then to find out where we really are; to examine ourselves and see whether we be in the faith; to measure ourselves by the Word of God and see if we are being deceived by our subtle Enemy; to find out whether we are building our house upon the sand, or whether it is erected on the Rock which is Christ Jesus. rojoloco you think of your self as wise and prophesied ! false doctrin. that is on you.
i just said simon denyed christ. and he did .