Can our salvation in Christ Jesus ever be jeopardised?

[Br. Bear]

Greetings KerimF,

in Jesus' sayings

it would appear that you have selectively dismissed, overlooked (?) or ignored some of what we have recorded as Jesus' sayings?


Bless you ....><>

 

[KerimF]

And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.
Matthew 25:40

Yes, this parable was addressed to the ancient Jews who were expecting rewards and punishment for what they do.

Do I hope I will be rewarded or fear I will be punished, for what I do?
Of course, I don't.

I live a continuous inner joy, in this world, while I am able to feed my soul by living the Unconditional Love, as revealed by Jesus, towards anyone I may meet (good or evil). And I feel really bad when I fail, till I correct what I did.
This is why Jesus says:
"I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine."

 

[KerimF]

Greetings KerimF,



it would appear that you have selectively dismissed, overlooked (?) or ignored some of what we have recorded as Jesus' sayings?


Bless you ....><>

Did I?
Please notify me what I missed.

 

[Curtis]

But how could I imagine/believe that I, a powerless tiny creature, have the power and means to also hurt my Father in Heaven or Jesus (that is to sin against my Creator)?

Deu 20:18 lest they teach you to do according to all their abominations which they have done for their gods, and you sin against the LORD your God.

Eph 4:30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

Gen 6:6 And the LORD was sorry that He had made man on the earth, and He was grieved in His heart.

All sin is against God.

 

[B-A-C]

Yes, this parable was addressed to the ancient Jews who were expecting rewards and punishment for what they do.

Do I hope I will be rewarded or fear I will be punished, for what I do?
Of course, I don't.

Matt 25:44; "Then they themselves also will answer, 'Lord, when did we see You hungry, or thirsty, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not take care of You?'
Matt 25:45; "Then He will answer them, 'Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.'
Matt 25:46; "These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."

This doesn't mention anything about rewards. But it does mention eternal punishment.

Matt 7:12; "In everything, therefore, treat people the same way you want them to treat you, for this is the Law and the Prophets.
Matt 7:13; "Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and there are many who enter through it.
Matt 7:14; "For the gate is small and the way is narrow that leads to life, and there are few who find it.

Which path has more people on it? The one with "many", or the one with "few"?

 

[KerimF]

Deu 20:18 lest they teach you to do according to all their abominations which they have done for their gods, and you sin against the LORD your God.

Eph 4:30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

Gen 6:6 And the LORD was sorry that He had made man on the earth, and He was grieved in His heart.

All sin is against God.

Yes, this is clear in the verses you presented. Thank you.

But I wonder what prevented Jesus to say this too. Any idea? Thank you.

 

[B-A-C]

75% will not make it, while 25% will.

Luke 8:10; And He said, "To you it has been granted to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God, but to the rest it is in parables, so that SEEING THEY MAY NOT SEE, AND HEARING THEY MAY NOT UNDERSTAND.
Luke 8:11; "Now the parable is this: the seed is the word of God.
Luke 8:12; "Those beside the road are those who have heard; then the devil comes and takes away the word from their heart, so that they will not believe and be saved.
Luke 8:13; "Those on the rocky soil are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no firm root; they believe for a while, and in time of temptation fall away.
Luke 8:14; "The seed which fell among the thorns, these are the ones who have heard, and as they go on their way they are choked with worries and riches and pleasures of this life, and bring no fruit to maturity.
Luke 8:15; "But the seed in the good soil, these are the ones who have heard the word in an honest and good heart, and hold it fast, and bear fruit with perseverance.

I agree, but 75% of them started off the right way.
Those in verse 12, are never saved. We agree on the that.
Those in verse 13 "believe for a while" and then fall away. They were saved for a little while.
Those in verse 14 "bring no fruit to maturity". They were saved long enough to start bearing fruit, but they didn't persevere long enough to let it mature.
I think we would agree those in verse 15 are saved.

 

[B-A-C]

But I wonder what prevented Jesus to say this too. Any idea? Thank you.

Jesus was speaking in all of these verses.

Luke 13:3; "I tell you, no, but unless you repent, you will all likewise perish.
Luke 13:5; "I tell you, no, but unless you repent, you will all likewise perish."
Rev 2:5; 'Therefore remember from where you have fallen, and repent and do the deeds you did at first; or else I am coming to you and will remove your lampstand out of its place—unless you repent.
Rev 2:22; 'Behold, I will throw her on a bed of sickness, and those who commit adultery with her into great tribulation, unless they repent of her deeds.

 

[B-A-C]

I have never, ever heard anyone on this forum advocate that the grace of God is a licence to sin.

I will message some to you privately, but have you read any of KerimF's posts that seem to say the wages of sin don't apply to them?
If there are no consequences of sin, then I have a license to sin.

 

[complete]

Again, I think we are confusing two things here. No one is arguing that people get completely saved. If people couldn't get "completely" saved, then no one would ever be saved.
The question is, does everyone "stay" saved?

A house can be finished, just to be burned up or demolished later. A car can be restored to car-show quality, just to be wrecked later. A person can have their heart changed, and be turned to God, but...

2Pet 2:20; For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world by the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and are overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first.
2Pet 2:21; For it would be better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn away from the holy commandment handed on to them.
2Pet 2:22; It has happened to them according to the true proverb, "A DOG RETURNS TO ITS OWN VOMIT," and, "A sow, after washing, returns to wallowing in the mire."

Heb 6:4; For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit,
Heb 6:5; and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come,
Heb 6:6; and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame.

The question isn't, does God have to power to save them completely, but rather do they have the power to fall away afterwards.

1Tim 4:1; But the Spirit explicitly says that in later times some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons,

1Tim 1:19; keeping faith and a good conscience, which some have rejected and suffered shipwreck in regard to their faith.

Subject Heading:- Can our salvation in Christ Jesus ever be jeopardised?​

Hello @B-A-C,

The first thing I want to say, is that this thread was never intended to be a, 'once-saved-always-saved,' thread. The question being, if our salvation can ever be jeopardised'? Which I did not interpret in the same way.

The verses you have chosen this time, indicate that it is 'unbelief' or 'loss of faith' which can indeed cause one who has professed to believe to fall away. I need to consider the consequences of so doing? (Please leave this open for further consideration at another time).

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[complete]

I will message some to you privately, but have you read any of KerimF's posts that seem to say the wages of sin don't apply to them?
If there are no consequences of sin, then I have a license to sin.

Hello @B-A-C,

I must have missed the posts in question. Forgive me. I have not read anything other than the two posts by KerimF that I responded to, so do not know where he/she stands on this.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[KerimF]

Matt 25:44; "Then they themselves also will answer, 'Lord, when did we see You hungry, or thirsty, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not take care of You?'
Matt 25:45; "Then He will answer them, 'Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.'
Matt 25:46; "These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."

This doesn't mention anything about rewards. But it does mention eternal punishment.

Matt 7:12; "In everything, therefore, treat people the same way you want them to treat you, for this is the Law and the Prophets.
Matt 7:13; "Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and there are many who enter through it.
Matt 7:14; "For the gate is small and the way is narrow that leads to life, and there are few who find it.

Which path has more people on it? The one with "many", or the one with "few"?

About the reward, I was referring to:
Matt 25:34 "Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

Matt 7:12; "In everything, therefore, treat people the same way you want them to treat you, for this is the Law and the Prophets.
You see?... Jesus here is addressing the ancient Jews, not me, who have been prepared by the Prophets and God's Law, for too many centuries, for the arrival of Jesus among them. When Jesus came His message was, still is, about the Unconditional Love which, by definition, cannot be imposed by anyone or any law because it is strictly a personal matter and could be lived towards others by real free humans only (who are free to oppose their instincts of survival, superiority, selfishness, applying a certain justice on others... to name a few).

Matt 7:13; "Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and there are many who enter through it.
Here, I don't hear anything about punishment by torture or the like. The word destruction simply refers to the return back to the raw state (opposite of the Everlasting Life).

Matt 7:14; "For the gate is small and the way is narrow that leads to life, and there are few who find it.
Naturally, there are always a few persons around the world who can live really, in the material world's jungle, God's Unconditional Love towards all others, good and evil ones.

 

[KerimF]

Luke 8:10; And He said, "To you it has been granted to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God, but to the rest it is in parables, so that SEEING THEY MAY NOT SEE, AND HEARING THEY MAY NOT UNDERSTAND.
Luke 8:11; "Now the parable is this: the seed is the word of God.
Luke 8:12; "Those beside the road are those who have heard; then the devil comes and takes away the word from their heart, so that they will not believe and be saved.
Luke 8:13; "Those on the rocky soil are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no firm root; they believe for a while, and in time of temptation fall away.
Luke 8:14; "The seed which fell among the thorns, these are the ones who have heard, and as they go on their way they are choked with worries and riches and pleasures of this life, and bring no fruit to maturity.
Luke 8:15; "But the seed in the good soil, these are the ones who have heard the word in an honest and good heart, and hold it fast, and bear fruit with perseverance.

I agree, but 75% of them started off the right way.
Those in verse 12, are never saved. We agree on the that.
Those in verse 13 "believe for a while" and then fall away. They were saved for a little while.
Those in verse 14 "bring no fruit to maturity". They were saved long enough to start bearing fruit, but they didn't persevere long enough to let it mature.
I think we would agree those in verse 15 are saved.

Jesus, in verse 15, was referring to His first Apostles and Disciples who indeed bear fruits with perseverance till their last breath. Thanks to their sacrifices and of many others later, I was able to also hear Jesus even after about 2000 years.

 

[Curtis]

The verses you have chosen this time, indicate that it is 'unbelief' or 'loss of faith' which can indeed cause one who has professed to believe to fall away.

Once a person becomes a child of God who has been purchased by the blood of Jesus, they are no longer their own property.

1Co 6:19 What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?
1Co 6:20 For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's.


2Ti 2:13 If we are faithless, He remains faithful; He cannot deny Himself.

 

[Curtis]

Luke 8:10; And He said, "To you it has been granted to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God, but to the rest it is in parables, so that SEEING THEY MAY NOT SEE, AND HEARING THEY MAY NOT UNDERSTAND.
Luke 8:11; "Now the parable is this: the seed is the word of God.
Luke 8:12; "Those beside the road are those who have heard; then the devil comes and takes away the word from their heart, so that they will not believe and be saved.
Luke 8:13; "Those on the rocky soil are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no firm root; they believe for a while, and in time of temptation fall away.
Luke 8:14; "The seed which fell among the thorns, these are the ones who have heard, and as they go on their way they are choked with worries and riches and pleasures of this life, and bring no fruit to maturity.
Luke 8:15; "But the seed in the good soil, these are the ones who have heard the word in an honest and good heart, and hold it fast, and bear fruit with perseverance.

I agree, but 75% of them started off the right way.
Those in verse 12, are never saved. We agree on the that.
Those in verse 13 "believe for a while" and then fall away. They were saved for a little while.
Those in verse 14 "bring no fruit to maturity". They were saved long enough to start bearing fruit, but they didn't persevere long enough to let it mature.
I think we would agree those in verse 15 are saved.

If everyone who has fallen away were truly saved they would have remained with those who are truly saved.

1Jn 2:19 These people left our churches, but they never really belonged with us; otherwise they would have stayed with us. When they left, it proved that they did not belong with us.

 

[B-A-C]

Once a person becomes a child of God who has been purchased by the blood of Jesus, they are no longer their own property.

I agree, but I think the misnomer here is, once He owns you, you are free and clear.

There are plenty of examples in the Bible about about a steward in the master houses ( he belonged to the master ) who was cast out later for being lazy.
About a tree in the master's garden ( it belonged to the Master ) that was in danger of being cut down because it didn't bear any fruit over the last three years.
Even about tares that are in the kingdom that will be removed out of the kingdom.

 

[B-A-C]

1Jn 2:19 These people left our churches, but they never really belonged with us; otherwise they would have stayed with us. When they left, it proved that they did not belong with us.

Is this verse about falling away, or it simply they moved on to other pastures? Other churches, other ministries.

 

[Curtis]

Is this verse about falling away, or it simply they moved on to other pastures? Other churches, other ministries.

Who are these people?

1Jn 2:18 Little children, it is the last hour; and as you have heard that the Antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come, by which we know that it is the last hour.

1Jn 2:19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us.

They (Antichrists) in the Church (nonbelievers) who looked like real believers fell away from the real believers.

 

[Curtis]

I agree, but I think the misnomer here is, once He owns you, you are free and clear.

There are plenty of examples in the Bible about about a steward in the master houses ( he belonged to the master ) who was cast out later for being lazy.
About a tree in the master's garden ( it belonged to the Master ) that was in danger of being cut down because it didn't bear any fruit over the last three years.
Even about tares that are in the kingdom that will be removed out of the kingdom.

This is why the Lord God chastises and corrects every son who belongs to him so that they may be partakes of his holiness.

Jesus refers to tares as being children of the wicked one.

Mat 13:38 The field is the world, the good seeds are the sons of the kingdom, but the tares are the sons of the wicked one.

 

[B-A-C]

Mat 13:38 The field is the world, the good seeds are the sons of the kingdom, but the tares are the sons of the wicked one.

Even so, they are "IN" the kingdom currently.

Matt 13:41; "The Son of Man will send forth His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all stumbling blocks, and those who commit lawlessness,