DrBubbaLove
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Very close. As stated in the first post and mine, and supported by such verses we believe both faith AND works are necessary. And yes that is opposed to the teaching that faith alone saves us.
Catholicism
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It is not works that saves us. It is by faith.
Eph.2.8
8For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9not by works, so that no one can boast. 10For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.
Question: "Is salvation by faith alone, or by faith plus works?"
Answer: This is perhaps the most important question in all of Christian theology. This question is the cause of the Reformation - the split between the Protestant church and Catholic church. This question is a key difference between Biblical Christianity and most of the "Christian" cults. Is salvation by faith alone, or by faith plus works? Am I saved just by believing in Jesus, or do I have to believe in Jesus and do certain things?
The question of faith alone or faith plus works is made difficult by some hard-to-reconcile Bible passages. Compare Romans 3:28, 5:1 and Galatians 3:24 with James 2:24. Some see a difference between Paul (salvation is by faith alone) and James (salvation is by faith plus works). In reality, Paul and James did not disagree at all. The only point of disagreement some people claim is over the relationship between faith and works. Paul dogmatically says that justification is by faith alone (Ephesians 2:8-9) while James appears to be saying that justification is by faith plus works. This apparent problem is answered by examining what exactly James is talking about. James is refuting the belief that a person can have faith without producing any good works (James 2:17-18). James is emphasizing the point that genuine faith in Christ will produce a changed life and good works (James 2:20-26). James is not saying that justification is by faith plus works, but rather that a person who is truly justified by faith will have good works in his life. If a person claims to be a believer, but has no good works in his life – then he likely does not have genuine faith in Christ (James 2:14, 17, 20, 26).
Paul says the same thing in his writings. The good fruit believers should have in their lives is listed in Galatians 5:22-23. Immediately after telling us that we are saved by faith, not works (Ephesians 2:8-9), Paul informs us that we were created to do good works (Ephesians 2:10). Paul expects just as much of a changed life as James does, “Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has gone, the new has come” (2 Corinthians 5:17)! James and Paul do not disagree on their teaching on salvation. They approach the same subject from different perspectives. Paul simply emphasized that justification is by faith alone while James put emphasis on the fact that faith in Christ produces good works.
Recommended Resource: Faith Alone: The Evangelical Doctrine of Justification by R.C. Sproul.
Eph.2.8
8For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9not by works, so that no one can boast. 10For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.
Question: "Is salvation by faith alone, or by faith plus works?"
Answer: This is perhaps the most important question in all of Christian theology. This question is the cause of the Reformation - the split between the Protestant church and Catholic church. This question is a key difference between Biblical Christianity and most of the "Christian" cults. Is salvation by faith alone, or by faith plus works? Am I saved just by believing in Jesus, or do I have to believe in Jesus and do certain things?
The question of faith alone or faith plus works is made difficult by some hard-to-reconcile Bible passages. Compare Romans 3:28, 5:1 and Galatians 3:24 with James 2:24. Some see a difference between Paul (salvation is by faith alone) and James (salvation is by faith plus works). In reality, Paul and James did not disagree at all. The only point of disagreement some people claim is over the relationship between faith and works. Paul dogmatically says that justification is by faith alone (Ephesians 2:8-9) while James appears to be saying that justification is by faith plus works. This apparent problem is answered by examining what exactly James is talking about. James is refuting the belief that a person can have faith without producing any good works (James 2:17-18). James is emphasizing the point that genuine faith in Christ will produce a changed life and good works (James 2:20-26). James is not saying that justification is by faith plus works, but rather that a person who is truly justified by faith will have good works in his life. If a person claims to be a believer, but has no good works in his life – then he likely does not have genuine faith in Christ (James 2:14, 17, 20, 26).
Paul says the same thing in his writings. The good fruit believers should have in their lives is listed in Galatians 5:22-23. Immediately after telling us that we are saved by faith, not works (Ephesians 2:8-9), Paul informs us that we were created to do good works (Ephesians 2:10). Paul expects just as much of a changed life as James does, “Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has gone, the new has come” (2 Corinthians 5:17)! James and Paul do not disagree on their teaching on salvation. They approach the same subject from different perspectives. Paul simply emphasized that justification is by faith alone while James put emphasis on the fact that faith in Christ produces good works.
Recommended Resource: Faith Alone: The Evangelical Doctrine of Justification by R.C. Sproul.
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If the 'catholic' system is not at fault for its false teaching, then why does it have its own version of scripture? Why does it have its own name "catholic" and not its bible called "catholic bible"? Why does it have its popes with the strange looking golden cone headwear and the long traditional masses? Is the original, infallible Word of GOD as we know it to be the Holy Bible not good enough for you?
Why are such catholics so hardcore about being catholic that one cannot accept the Holy Bible as it is but comes here for example, to defend catholics and accuse for example, my first post of being illegitimate?
Read this for more information: http://www.talkjesus.com/bible-chat/5886-christian-catholic.html
Why are such catholics so hardcore about being catholic that one cannot accept the Holy Bible as it is but comes here for example, to defend catholics and accuse for example, my first post of being illegitimate?
Read this for more information: http://www.talkjesus.com/bible-chat/5886-christian-catholic.html
DrBubbaLove
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Chad,
Peace brother. First, did not call your post illegitimate and if you took my response that way it was not intended. What I said basically was the writer of that book you quoted was presenting a strawman of some Catholic beliefs and then beating up the strawman rather than what Catholic believe.
As for accusations, it looked to me like it was all coming my way rather than in other directions, but that seems to be the norm towards Catholics on many forums so am rather use to that.
My understanding of the original post was; here is what Catholics believe and this is why they are wrong. Just trying to point out that what was presented as Catholic beliefs was in error, so the author's conclusions as to why we are wrong is erroneous.
If you want to ask question on particulars we should probably start more threads as there is too much being asked to throw under this single thread banner. And it is usually helpful to everyone else all to stick to a single general topic inside each thread.
Peace brother. First, did not call your post illegitimate and if you took my response that way it was not intended. What I said basically was the writer of that book you quoted was presenting a strawman of some Catholic beliefs and then beating up the strawman rather than what Catholic believe.
As for accusations, it looked to me like it was all coming my way rather than in other directions, but that seems to be the norm towards Catholics on many forums so am rather use to that.
My understanding of the original post was; here is what Catholics believe and this is why they are wrong. Just trying to point out that what was presented as Catholic beliefs was in error, so the author's conclusions as to why we are wrong is erroneous.
If you want to ask question on particulars we should probably start more threads as there is too much being asked to throw under this single thread banner. And it is usually helpful to everyone else all to stick to a single general topic inside each thread.
DrBubbaLove
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Thanks for the input Lady,
Did not mean to turn this thread into a defense of either faith or faith plus works, which is why I acknowledged that faith and works is a part of our belief and one that opposes those that believe in faith alone. While we could discuss it here, would think a detailed discussion would be better in a different thread.
Am curious though how you see Christian denominations arising from a non-Christian cult.
Did not mean to turn this thread into a defense of either faith or faith plus works, which is why I acknowledged that faith and works is a part of our belief and one that opposes those that believe in faith alone. While we could discuss it here, would think a detailed discussion would be better in a different thread.
Am curious though how you see Christian denominations arising from a non-Christian cult.
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Ok DrBubba...thank you for your response and humility to say the least. Usually people have issues in maintaining humility.
Talk Jesus is solely about Jesus Christ and His Word, GOD's Word which is the one and only Holy Bible. Its not about other doctrines, denominations. It is about teaching the Truth as the Word does while in this process it exposes false doctrines.
Now, my rules and motives here is not about putting people down, but to teach them Truth as GOD provided in the Word. As I said, it exposes deceitful doctrines and false preaching / preachers in the process as a result anyway. If for example my threads about Catholics being a bad system, a false doctrine is hateful towards Catholic believers, that must also mean I hate my family who are entirely without a single doubt hardcore Christians. Would this make sense? No, and I always make it clear my family background and catholic upbringing so people know where I come from and the motive is clear: love and teaching.
All in all, in the end we are reaching out to those deceived and/or exposed to false teaching.
I would appreciate if you do answer my last questions.
I agree 100% with his article, as everyone in this thread does too. You are the only one who comes out admitting you are catholic and showing disagreement on the article. This is why I am waiting your response to my questions. If they are left unanswered, then the silence would speak for itself.
Talk Jesus is solely about Jesus Christ and His Word, GOD's Word which is the one and only Holy Bible. Its not about other doctrines, denominations. It is about teaching the Truth as the Word does while in this process it exposes false doctrines.
Now, my rules and motives here is not about putting people down, but to teach them Truth as GOD provided in the Word. As I said, it exposes deceitful doctrines and false preaching / preachers in the process as a result anyway. If for example my threads about Catholics being a bad system, a false doctrine is hateful towards Catholic believers, that must also mean I hate my family who are entirely without a single doubt hardcore Christians. Would this make sense? No, and I always make it clear my family background and catholic upbringing so people know where I come from and the motive is clear: love and teaching.
All in all, in the end we are reaching out to those deceived and/or exposed to false teaching.
I would appreciate if you do answer my last questions.
I agree 100% with his article, as everyone in this thread does too. You are the only one who comes out admitting you are catholic and showing disagreement on the article. This is why I am waiting your response to my questions. If they are left unanswered, then the silence would speak for itself.
EuphoricForest
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ahh good post ladylovesJesus!
I never knew that about James and Paul. Awesome writers those two were though, I love Paul's stuff.
:shade:
Peace and God Bless!
-Eric
I never knew that about James and Paul. Awesome writers those two were though, I love Paul's stuff.
:shade:
Peace and God Bless!
-Eric
Last edited:
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Thank you dear brother. Yes they were good writers. Glad to know you also have learnt something new from a posting on here.
God bless you.
:rainbow: :rose:
God bless you.
:rainbow: :rose:No longer catholic, but very Christian
I think that there is a strong emphasis on the teaching of the roman catholic church. I will not call it the "Church", anymore. I have left the false doctrine and I am aware of the false doctrines of the roman catholic church. Chad, Euphoric Forest and I have been through the school system the mass and traditions that are purely man made.
I too come from a family of catholics and I love them deeply. But they are not being accountable for their actions before God and continue to err in the sight of God. When speaking to my Father about false doctrine, he said "it is not the church, it's the people". Well the people are being held accountable now and will be held accountable before our Lord Jesus Christ.
The roman catholic church has done exactly what Jesus warned us not to do and that is make up man made doctrine.
I have to put all of the text from Matthew 23, because it all relates to the anger Jesus had over false teaching. Jesus is so simple and kind, so loving and real, so caring and willing for us to be His. I love being a non denominational Christian and just allowing the Word of God to work in me. God is beautiful and He can't stand having ceremony being conducted before His eyes or even to have saints and angels "immortilized". My biggest fear is that maybe all the saints and angels and apostles did become "catholic". Poor Jesus, if that happened to Him.
Anyway, here is Matthew 23: Jesus is wonderful. He fills us with His glory. He is the only Begotten Son of God and our Salvation, our Saviour.
Matthew 23
Seven Woes
1Then Jesus said to the crowds and to his disciples: 2"The teachers of the law and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat. 3So you must obey them and do everything they tell you. But do not do what they do, for they do not practice what they preach. 4They tie up heavy loads and put them on men's shoulders, but they themselves are not willing to lift a finger to move them.
5"Everything they do is done for men to see: They make their phylacteries[a] wide and the tassels on their garments long; 6they love the place of honor at banquets and the most important seats in the synagogues; 7they love to be greeted in the marketplaces and to have men call them 'Rabbi.'
8"But you are not to be called 'Rabbi,' for you have only one Master and you are all brothers. 9And do not call anyone on earth 'father,' for you have one Father, and he is in heaven. 10Nor are you to be called 'teacher,' for you have one Teacher, the Christ. 11The greatest among you will be your servant. 12For whoever exalts himself will be humbled, and whoever humbles himself will be exalted.
13"Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You shut the kingdom of heaven in men's faces. You yourselves do not enter, nor will you let those enter who are trying to.[c]
15"Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You travel over land and sea to win a single convert, and when he becomes one, you make him twice as much a son of hell as you are.
16"Woe to you, blind guides! You say, 'If anyone swears by the temple, it means nothing; but if anyone swears by the gold of the temple, he is bound by his oath.' 17You blind fools! Which is greater: the gold, or the temple that makes the gold sacred? 18You also say, 'If anyone swears by the altar, it means nothing; but if anyone swears by the gift on it, he is bound by his oath.' 19You blind men! Which is greater: the gift, or the altar that makes the gift sacred? 20Therefore, he who swears by the altar swears by it and by everything on it. 21And he who swears by the temple swears by it and by the one who dwells in it. 22And he who swears by heaven swears by God's throne and by the one who sits on it.
23"Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You give a tenth of your spices—mint, dill and cummin. But you have neglected the more important matters of the law—justice, mercy and faithfulness. You should have practiced the latter, without neglecting the former. 24You blind guides! You strain out a gnat but swallow a camel.
25"Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You clean the outside of the cup and dish, but inside they are full of greed and self-indulgence. 26Blind Pharisee! First clean the inside of the cup and dish, and then the outside also will be clean.
27"Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You are like whitewashed tombs, which look beautiful on the outside but on the inside are full of dead men's bones and everything unclean. 28In the same way, on the outside you appear to people as righteous but on the inside you are full of hypocrisy and wickedness.
29"Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You build tombs for the prophets and decorate the graves of the righteous. 30And you say, 'If we had lived in the days of our forefathers, we would not have taken part with them in shedding the blood of the prophets.' 31So you testify against yourselves that you are the descendants of those who murdered the prophets. 32Fill up, then, the measure of the sin of your forefathers!
33"You snakes! You brood of vipers! How will you escape being condemned to hell? 34Therefore I am sending you prophets and wise men and teachers. Some of them you will kill and crucify; others you will flog in your synagogues and pursue from town to town. 35And so upon you will come all the righteous blood that has been shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah son of Berekiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar. 36I tell you the truth, all this will come upon this generation.
37"O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing. 38Look, your house is left to you desolate. 39For I tell you, you will not see me again until you say, 'Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord.'[d]"
Not only was Jesus our Lord and Saviour, He was a prophet too and I truly believe His prophecy is about the roman catholic church. Not too far off from the ceremonial traditions of the Jews.
Let the Word speak to you. Open your heart. He is here.
Amenixie :rainbow:
I think that there is a strong emphasis on the teaching of the roman catholic church. I will not call it the "Church", anymore. I have left the false doctrine and I am aware of the false doctrines of the roman catholic church. Chad, Euphoric Forest and I have been through the school system the mass and traditions that are purely man made.
I too come from a family of catholics and I love them deeply. But they are not being accountable for their actions before God and continue to err in the sight of God. When speaking to my Father about false doctrine, he said "it is not the church, it's the people". Well the people are being held accountable now and will be held accountable before our Lord Jesus Christ.
The roman catholic church has done exactly what Jesus warned us not to do and that is make up man made doctrine.
I have to put all of the text from Matthew 23, because it all relates to the anger Jesus had over false teaching. Jesus is so simple and kind, so loving and real, so caring and willing for us to be His. I love being a non denominational Christian and just allowing the Word of God to work in me. God is beautiful and He can't stand having ceremony being conducted before His eyes or even to have saints and angels "immortilized". My biggest fear is that maybe all the saints and angels and apostles did become "catholic". Poor Jesus, if that happened to Him.
Anyway, here is Matthew 23: Jesus is wonderful. He fills us with His glory. He is the only Begotten Son of God and our Salvation, our Saviour.
Matthew 23
Seven Woes
1Then Jesus said to the crowds and to his disciples: 2"The teachers of the law and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat. 3So you must obey them and do everything they tell you. But do not do what they do, for they do not practice what they preach. 4They tie up heavy loads and put them on men's shoulders, but they themselves are not willing to lift a finger to move them.
5"Everything they do is done for men to see: They make their phylacteries[a] wide and the tassels on their garments long; 6they love the place of honor at banquets and the most important seats in the synagogues; 7they love to be greeted in the marketplaces and to have men call them 'Rabbi.'
8"But you are not to be called 'Rabbi,' for you have only one Master and you are all brothers. 9And do not call anyone on earth 'father,' for you have one Father, and he is in heaven. 10Nor are you to be called 'teacher,' for you have one Teacher, the Christ. 11The greatest among you will be your servant. 12For whoever exalts himself will be humbled, and whoever humbles himself will be exalted.
13"Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You shut the kingdom of heaven in men's faces. You yourselves do not enter, nor will you let those enter who are trying to.[c]
15"Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You travel over land and sea to win a single convert, and when he becomes one, you make him twice as much a son of hell as you are.
16"Woe to you, blind guides! You say, 'If anyone swears by the temple, it means nothing; but if anyone swears by the gold of the temple, he is bound by his oath.' 17You blind fools! Which is greater: the gold, or the temple that makes the gold sacred? 18You also say, 'If anyone swears by the altar, it means nothing; but if anyone swears by the gift on it, he is bound by his oath.' 19You blind men! Which is greater: the gift, or the altar that makes the gift sacred? 20Therefore, he who swears by the altar swears by it and by everything on it. 21And he who swears by the temple swears by it and by the one who dwells in it. 22And he who swears by heaven swears by God's throne and by the one who sits on it.
23"Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You give a tenth of your spices—mint, dill and cummin. But you have neglected the more important matters of the law—justice, mercy and faithfulness. You should have practiced the latter, without neglecting the former. 24You blind guides! You strain out a gnat but swallow a camel.
25"Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You clean the outside of the cup and dish, but inside they are full of greed and self-indulgence. 26Blind Pharisee! First clean the inside of the cup and dish, and then the outside also will be clean.
27"Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You are like whitewashed tombs, which look beautiful on the outside but on the inside are full of dead men's bones and everything unclean. 28In the same way, on the outside you appear to people as righteous but on the inside you are full of hypocrisy and wickedness.
29"Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You build tombs for the prophets and decorate the graves of the righteous. 30And you say, 'If we had lived in the days of our forefathers, we would not have taken part with them in shedding the blood of the prophets.' 31So you testify against yourselves that you are the descendants of those who murdered the prophets. 32Fill up, then, the measure of the sin of your forefathers!
33"You snakes! You brood of vipers! How will you escape being condemned to hell? 34Therefore I am sending you prophets and wise men and teachers. Some of them you will kill and crucify; others you will flog in your synagogues and pursue from town to town. 35And so upon you will come all the righteous blood that has been shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah son of Berekiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar. 36I tell you the truth, all this will come upon this generation.
37"O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing. 38Look, your house is left to you desolate. 39For I tell you, you will not see me again until you say, 'Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord.'[d]"
Not only was Jesus our Lord and Saviour, He was a prophet too and I truly believe His prophecy is about the roman catholic church. Not too far off from the ceremonial traditions of the Jews.
Let the Word speak to you. Open your heart. He is here.
Amen
ixie :rainbow:As a Catholic I must say that Dogmas and Churches Tradition are not the same as the Bible. Tradition is important because it help us understand and follow the Bible, and Dogmas came from the Bible. Dogmas are not an Invention from someone, they are entirely in harmony with the Scriptures. They came out to combat heresies from others. We wouldn't have Tradition or Dogmas if we didn't have the Bible.
I don't know how this is in other countries but I live in Portugal and here everyone always explained me that faith is the only important thing to be saved. Works are the consequence of faith and not vice-versa.
Cheers in Christ :girl_hug:
I don't know how this is in other countries but I live in Portugal and here everyone always explained me that faith is the only important thing to be saved. Works are the consequence of faith and not vice-versa.
Cheers in Christ :girl_hug:
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Good point sister Aninhas about faith and works. Faith is the only thing we need to be saved by GOD's grace in Christ, while "faithful works" is the results, the fruits we bear in our walk with GOD when we *do* take up our cross and follow Jesus
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SpiritLedEd
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There was a day long ago, when lay people needed the Scriptures interpreted for them. Illiteracy was rampant and education of any quality was virtually unattainable for all but a fortunate few. Christians who wanted to grow spiritually needed a firm foundation to be set out for them by theologians and church leaders. Thus the concept of dogma and tradition being as important as the Bible itself came into being.
Over the centuries, this concept became entrenched in some church organizations. However, over those same centuries, things have changed dramatically. Illiteracy has declined drastically and education has advanced in even the most impoverished countries. Aided by easy-to-read yet theologically accurate versions of the Bible, the folks in the pews have taken to private Scripture reading and study in increasing numbers. They no longer lean hard on Scripture scholars for information.
So, why don't eccleastical churches read the handwriting on the wall? Why don't they see the message in their declining membership numbers; in their difficulty in attracting and retaining qualified ministerial candidates? The leadership structure that has been in place in ecclesiastical churches in the USA has subtly taught that ministers are "holy", which means that they are above the lay people and separate from them. I don't believe God ever intended it to be that way.
Of course, we will always need theologians and Scripture scholars to help us learn and understand. But, the days of lay people needing them to do our interpreting and understanding for us have been over for quite a long time.
SLE
Over the centuries, this concept became entrenched in some church organizations. However, over those same centuries, things have changed dramatically. Illiteracy has declined drastically and education has advanced in even the most impoverished countries. Aided by easy-to-read yet theologically accurate versions of the Bible, the folks in the pews have taken to private Scripture reading and study in increasing numbers. They no longer lean hard on Scripture scholars for information.
So, why don't eccleastical churches read the handwriting on the wall? Why don't they see the message in their declining membership numbers; in their difficulty in attracting and retaining qualified ministerial candidates? The leadership structure that has been in place in ecclesiastical churches in the USA has subtly taught that ministers are "holy", which means that they are above the lay people and separate from them. I don't believe God ever intended it to be that way.
Of course, we will always need theologians and Scripture scholars to help us learn and understand. But, the days of lay people needing them to do our interpreting and understanding for us have been over for quite a long time.
SLE
TheKingdom
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The worst cults in my view are Mormons and Jehovah's Witnesses. These two groups deny that Jesus was the living God incarnate, but rather teach that He was a lesser created god. Belief that Jesus is God in the personage of the Son, and is coeternal with the father (John 1:1-18) is central to the issue. This belief knocks out every other religion on the planet. God gave us this distinction so that we may clearly discern from the counterfeits. This is elemental and fundamental to salvation. Mormons and Jehovah's Witnesses believe Jesus was "a" god, not "the" God , Seventh Day Adventists and Roman Catholics are of a different vein. They add law keeping and works (or stated another way, the righteousness of man) to salvation. I would also include the Church of Christ in the list because they add the work of baptism to salvation (Adventists add Sabbath keeping, and Catholics too many to list). Nothing is more clearly refuted in scripture than this. The whole book of Galatians is completely dedicated to this topic, as are major portions of many other books of the New Testament. God bless and a very informitive post.
Something for Catholics to think about
Throughout time there has been a being known as "The Goddess."
She appears and rises to power in Egypt primarily under the name Isis.
To the Greeks, Romans and Phoenicians she was Astarte, Diana, Hecate, and Demeter.
To the Hindu she was Kali as an aspect or avatar of Parvati.
To the Mesopotamians she was Innana.
I could go on, but you get the idea.
This being has a common thread that marks her in every religion where she appears (and she is said to appear physically to her people).
In every religion where this being shows up, she is called "The Queen of Heaven."
That is a rare title for a female entity to hold in cultures and times that generally were not led by women. In every case where the title has been discovered, the Goddess carrying it becomes an object of worship that supercedes the God (or Gods) with whom she was associated.
---
She shows up in the Bible too. If you are Protestant or generally Christian, she shows up only once: Jeriamiah 44. I strongly suggest reading it. The chapter stands by itself as a solid and very tragic moment in Biblical History.
It's one of the very few times God Himself promises to destroy anything He's created. Not kill, not correct...destroy. This was an end beyond the mere end of mortal death. ... And the peopel brought it on themselves.
---
If you are Catholic or Eastern Orthodox however, the "Queen of Heaven" shows up again, not in the Bible, but in the traditions which the mortal men of the church have set up as equal in stature to the Word of God.
The title of Mary the mother of Jesus, in the Catholic and Apolstolic chruches of both Roman Catholicism and Eastern Orthodoxy, is "Mary...Queen of Heaven."
Mary, the mother of Jesus, was given this title because a being appeared to various people of the church, as a woman in royal robes wearing a crown, holding a baby in her arms.
Ask yourself why Jesus would live and die after 33 years of life to be resurrected and appear as that same 33 year old male to His apostles, yet He would appear as a baby in His mother's arms to anyone else.
Ask yourself why anyone else in Heaven would be wearing a crown when Christ is our King. He has no consort, He needs no regent.
I can only imagine that Mary the mother of Jesus weeps because of this. I know I do.
What greater evil could the devil do to man, than to rape away the innocent purity of this good woman, and set up our dear Lord Christ's own human mother as a figure of idolatry by which men and women are led away from God? This is but one area where the traditions of Catholicism have been perverted by darkness.
Why would anyone willingly perpetuate such a thing? Lay it aside, let it go. Come away from the Church and into the arms of the Lord God.
Do not let a prideful need to cling to human traditions destroy your chance to learn how God wants you to know Him.
Throughout time there has been a being known as "The Goddess."
She appears and rises to power in Egypt primarily under the name Isis.
To the Greeks, Romans and Phoenicians she was Astarte, Diana, Hecate, and Demeter.
To the Hindu she was Kali as an aspect or avatar of Parvati.
To the Mesopotamians she was Innana.
I could go on, but you get the idea.
This being has a common thread that marks her in every religion where she appears (and she is said to appear physically to her people).
In every religion where this being shows up, she is called "The Queen of Heaven."
That is a rare title for a female entity to hold in cultures and times that generally were not led by women. In every case where the title has been discovered, the Goddess carrying it becomes an object of worship that supercedes the God (or Gods) with whom she was associated.
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She shows up in the Bible too. If you are Protestant or generally Christian, she shows up only once: Jeriamiah 44. I strongly suggest reading it. The chapter stands by itself as a solid and very tragic moment in Biblical History.
It's one of the very few times God Himself promises to destroy anything He's created. Not kill, not correct...destroy. This was an end beyond the mere end of mortal death. ... And the peopel brought it on themselves.
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If you are Catholic or Eastern Orthodox however, the "Queen of Heaven" shows up again, not in the Bible, but in the traditions which the mortal men of the church have set up as equal in stature to the Word of God.
The title of Mary the mother of Jesus, in the Catholic and Apolstolic chruches of both Roman Catholicism and Eastern Orthodoxy, is "Mary...Queen of Heaven."
Mary, the mother of Jesus, was given this title because a being appeared to various people of the church, as a woman in royal robes wearing a crown, holding a baby in her arms.
Ask yourself why Jesus would live and die after 33 years of life to be resurrected and appear as that same 33 year old male to His apostles, yet He would appear as a baby in His mother's arms to anyone else.
Ask yourself why anyone else in Heaven would be wearing a crown when Christ is our King. He has no consort, He needs no regent.
I can only imagine that Mary the mother of Jesus weeps because of this. I know I do.
What greater evil could the devil do to man, than to rape away the innocent purity of this good woman, and set up our dear Lord Christ's own human mother as a figure of idolatry by which men and women are led away from God? This is but one area where the traditions of Catholicism have been perverted by darkness.
Why would anyone willingly perpetuate such a thing? Lay it aside, let it go. Come away from the Church and into the arms of the Lord God.
Do not let a prideful need to cling to human traditions destroy your chance to learn how God wants you to know Him.
Dreamer
Member
- Joined
- Nov 18, 2005
- Messages
- 2,134
Janette, I always felt there was something evil about "Mary" appearing to people in a physical/spiritual form, but I couldn't understand why. You have explained it succinctly above.
I appreciate your post. I will read the account in Jeremiah. This is good information that helps us to understand the Truth of God's Word. Thank you.
Here is the quote from your article that spoke to me the most:
"Ask yourself why Jesus would live and die after 33 years of life to be resurrected and appear as that same 33 year old male to His apostles, yet He would appear as a baby in His mother's arms to anyone else.
Ask yourself why anyone else in Heaven would be wearing a crown when Christ is our King. He has no consort, He needs no regent.
I can only imagine that Mary the mother of Jesus weeps because of this. I know I do.
What greater evil could the devil do to man, than to rape away the innocent purity of this good woman, and set up our dear Lord Christ's own human mother as a figure of idolatry by which men and women are led away from God? This is but one area where the traditions of Catholicism have been perverted by darkness.
Why would anyone willingly perpetuate such a thing? Lay it aside, let it go. Come away from the Church and into the arms of the Lord God.
Do not let a prideful need to cling to human traditions destroy your chance to learn how God wants you to know Him."
I appreciate your post. I will read the account in Jeremiah. This is good information that helps us to understand the Truth of God's Word. Thank you.
Here is the quote from your article that spoke to me the most:
"Ask yourself why Jesus would live and die after 33 years of life to be resurrected and appear as that same 33 year old male to His apostles, yet He would appear as a baby in His mother's arms to anyone else.
Ask yourself why anyone else in Heaven would be wearing a crown when Christ is our King. He has no consort, He needs no regent.
I can only imagine that Mary the mother of Jesus weeps because of this. I know I do.
What greater evil could the devil do to man, than to rape away the innocent purity of this good woman, and set up our dear Lord Christ's own human mother as a figure of idolatry by which men and women are led away from God? This is but one area where the traditions of Catholicism have been perverted by darkness.
Why would anyone willingly perpetuate such a thing? Lay it aside, let it go. Come away from the Church and into the arms of the Lord God.
Do not let a prideful need to cling to human traditions destroy your chance to learn how God wants you to know Him."
andrewnicholas
Member
- Joined
- Aug 18, 2005
- Messages
- 292
Hello Janette,
I am not a theologian,I am a simple person who places God at the very centre of my existance each day. I have visited sites dedicated to Mary.I never felt in any way my faith was being diverted from loving my Saviour - on the contrary I was drawn to God and my relationship became more personal. Salvation is the Lord's. I dont know a lot about other religions and their assemblies, celebrations, festivals or rites. Maybe its a good thing that people come together to pray in their thousands rather than engaging in evil practices.Through the centuries churches have been divided on dogma. I prefer to revert to the Bible , listen to God's word when and where I can and think of a time when all Christians were united in one universal belief. The laws of man may divide us but hopefully never to a point where we as Christians lose sight of the guiding light that blesses us each and every day. If the Christian churches turn against one another, if Christians are intolllerant of members of different Christian churches then the enemy will win. I am a simple person who loves God with all my heart. I regret that the dogma or traditions of any faith should offend another Christian. May God's peace be with us all. Amen.
I am not a theologian,I am a simple person who places God at the very centre of my existance each day. I have visited sites dedicated to Mary.I never felt in any way my faith was being diverted from loving my Saviour - on the contrary I was drawn to God and my relationship became more personal. Salvation is the Lord's. I dont know a lot about other religions and their assemblies, celebrations, festivals or rites. Maybe its a good thing that people come together to pray in their thousands rather than engaging in evil practices.Through the centuries churches have been divided on dogma. I prefer to revert to the Bible , listen to God's word when and where I can and think of a time when all Christians were united in one universal belief. The laws of man may divide us but hopefully never to a point where we as Christians lose sight of the guiding light that blesses us each and every day. If the Christian churches turn against one another, if Christians are intolllerant of members of different Christian churches then the enemy will win. I am a simple person who loves God with all my heart. I regret that the dogma or traditions of any faith should offend another Christian. May God's peace be with us all. Amen.
- Joined
- Feb 9, 2004
- Messages
- 17,078
Our job as true beleivers is to reach the lost and the deceived as well. What are you doing? You are simply pridefully defending the Catholic tradition, which is no where to be found in the Word. How can you be both catholic and Christian at the same time? Why call yourself both after all? Perhaps we should undelete your last very kind post you made earlier today to show everyone that your so "humble".
If your a true believer, you accept the one and only Word and Jesus Christ alone. You don't go off mouthing pridefully about your "belief" of being a catholic like you did in your last post that was deleted.
Do you love the catholic system or do you love Jesus solely? Some things are sadly too obvious after all. Especially boasting in private message to my moderator about someone thanking you for prayer in attempt to defend your last insulting post (now deleted) to me? Is boasting a catholic requirement by any chance? You appear to be doing just that. Strange, as far as I'm aware ALL GLORY TO GOD, ALL POWER IS HIS. Not yours. So why boast?
If your a true believer, you accept the one and only Word and Jesus Christ alone. You don't go off mouthing pridefully about your "belief" of being a catholic like you did in your last post that was deleted.
Do you love the catholic system or do you love Jesus solely? Some things are sadly too obvious after all. Especially boasting in private message to my moderator about someone thanking you for prayer in attempt to defend your last insulting post (now deleted) to me? Is boasting a catholic requirement by any chance? You appear to be doing just that. Strange, as far as I'm aware ALL GLORY TO GOD, ALL POWER IS HIS. Not yours. So why boast?
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