Calvinism Teaches that Jesus did not die for all . This is a huge difference to the bible.
Election (being chosen) is not salvation
Rather than insults , please answer when is the adoption according to Rom 8.23 ?
23And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, WAITING !!!! for the adoption, to wit, the REDEMPTION OF OUR BODY !!!
This is what we are predestined to after we believed . Eph 1.5 .
The headache comes from calvinistic thinking / scholars / Commentaries/ seminaries/ ect .
You seem to be unable to show me from scripture when the adoption is . The clue is in Rom 8.23 . God gave us eyes , let's read it .
I thought it was because he (Downunder @Downunder ) is from down-under and the blood rushes to his head!
Now i know differently!!
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Greetings @Free gift
we all write a bit differently and i know that some of my posts are difficult to understand.
We all do better to take that extra bit more time to try to explain things to others if they don't understand.
Remind me of this, often, please.
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Let us all post in peace and prayerfully.
Often we write and send without even the slightest prayer,
let us encourage one another to do that which is right and pleasing to Him Who loves us
Bless you ....><>
Brightfame52
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I think you error in judgment friend with a comment like that.
Brightfame52
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It sure doesnt say it wasnt before the foundation of the world., where are you reading ?
Please show where it says we were predestinated before the foundation of the world.
Having predestinated us unto the adoption .
Paul is telling them that now they are in him they are predestined to the Adoption , which is very clearly the redemption of the body . It is a future event . This idea that we are ' adopted into the family of God ' is not what this verse says .
Rom 8 .23
23And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.
It doesn't say Jesus wasn't a champion weight lifter either, we should try to stick to what the bible does say . Isn't this how we come to believe what we believe? Because we believe what the bible says ?
It doesn't say Jesus wasn't a champion weight lifter either .
Brightfame52
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Please show where it says we were not predestined before the foundation of the world.
Brightfame52
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Predestination is synced with Election before the foundation of the world.
Brightfame52
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You bought it up !
Brightfame52
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You bought it up !
After you show were Jesus was not a champion figure skater .
where is that in the bible ? Different words, different meaning . Different context.
Its a terrible argument .
Not according to scripture. I think your referring to Calvinism.
Predestination is of existing saints to adoption/glorification, not sinners to conversion. (Eph. 1:5, 11; Rom. 8:23, 29-30)
Election is to service, calling and purpose, not to salvation. (Isa. 42:1; Acts 9:15; Rom. 11:28)
Downunder
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Yes he is - I take all my burdens to him and he lifts them off my shoulders and takes them upon himself
and not just for me, but for millions who are praying to give to him their burdens also
Matthew 11:28 "Come to me, all who labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.
11:29 Take my yoke upon you, and learn from me, for I am gentle and lowly in heart, and you will find rest for your souls.
11:30 For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light."
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I guess it is in how you read verses of scripture - I kinda get where you are coming from, but with the same verses you cite I just read them differently.
Predestination is about sinners being converted and then becoming adopted as children of God. It is not an argument about freewill, but rather a matter of time and history.
Eph 1:5 he predestined us for adoption to himself as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will,
here predestined is definitely referring to adoption of as sons - that is we were not children of God (alienated as sinners) but by the work of God the Son we can be translated into the kingdom of God as sons and daughters
Eph 1:11 In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will,
1:12 so that we who were the first to hope in Christ might be to the praise of his glory.
As for Romans 8:23 for me that is about the resurrection of our dead souls/bodies and inheriting new glorified bodies.
I certainly read this as our adoption and salvation in God was put into effect, or the plan for this, from the very beginning before the foundation of the world.
Mindboggling I know. God already knew what mischief angels would get up to in his creation.
Sorry but predestination is not mind control that results in the election and salvation of good robots; rather I see it more that the plan to redeem humans from the corruption of fallen spirit beings upon us was purposed
by God from the beginning. And as Jesus has told us all - He is the alpha and the omega - the beginning and the end.
We can read of something quite spiritually mysterious in Genesis 1:1-5 which describes light (God) but there was also darkness (absence of light) before any other material creation concerning the world.
sorry about my previous posts and responses to you @Free gift that were less than kind - you are not a headache.
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