Faith or works or both?

[Samson2020]

Everyone has the breath of life in them. I didn't say God had no part in it. I asked for Scripture to support the claim that God created each of us. I'm still waiting for that.

What is your definition of created? We both agree that the spirit came from the Father and that we were born into condemnation, and that God created our
bodies in the womb. What more do you want?
Matthew 5:36 "Neither shalt thou swear by thy head, because thou canst not make one hair white or black."

However, what you believe to be true and what someone else believes to be true may be different.

And that should surprise me?

what seems obvious to you may not be seem obvious to someone else. That's why I asked for Scripture.

Which I gave reference to the seeing of it in the scripture concerning Peter and Jesus' interaction prior to and in the garden prior to his betrayal and crucifixion.
Matthew 16:23 vs Luke 22:42 areas, you should see the difference in the mind set. There was the mind of Christ then there was what we see in the Garden and they are
different. If one cannot see that I can't help you much.
Adam went in to his wife eve and knew his wife and she conceived. Do we have scripture that tells us exactly what happened or do we just know when he says knew
his wife how she conceived?

The first Adam was a sinless being not having the curses yet, the last Adam could only be the last Adam if he had the same opportunity as the first in that he was
born without the curses of Eden.

Isaiah 11:1-2 "And there shall come forth a rod out of the stem of Jesse, and a Branch shall grow out of his roots: and the Spirit of the LORD shall rest upon him, the
spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and might, the spirit of knowledge and the fear of the LORD; and shall make him of quick understanding
in the fear of the LORD."
Luke 2:52 "Jesus grew in WISDOM and in stature and in favor with God and man." This was as a child.

Now how could these spirits of God rest upon this child if he had a carnal mind? The very definition of carnal is separation from God which is 100% contrary
to this scripture.

"God hath concluded them ALL in unbelief , that he might have mercy on ALL."
Do you believe that Jesus was in this category? If so then he was a disbeliever in/of God and we both know that was never the case.

Why hast thou forsaken me. Sounds like a separation from his Father to me. Which brings us back to carnal mind, the very thing crucified.

 

[Bill]

Everyone has the breath of life in them. I didn't say God had no part in it. I asked for Scripture to support the claim that God created each of us. I'm still waiting for that.

You said that Jesus didn't have a mind like us. I asked if you had supportive Scripture. You've given me opinion based on your reasoning. Statements such as, "it should be obvious" and "it would seem to me" are rationalizations. They show me that you're interpreting what your'e reading based on what you understand to be true in Scripture. However, what you believe to be true and what someone else believes to be true may be different. Therefore, what seems obvious to you may not be seem obvious to someone else. That's why I asked for Scripture.

Now, Scripture says that Jesus was made like His brethren in all things.

Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people. (Heb. 2:17 KJV)

If Jesus didn't have a mind like us and couldn't sin, then being sinless wouldn't be a great accomplishment. Being sinless is only a great accomplishment if one has the capacity to sin. Also, Jesus is set forth as an example for us. If He was unable to sin then He wouldn't be an example to us.

You said, "A person who has no sin cannot have a carnal mind as this is the state of separation from God." This is an arbitrary statement. Do you have Scripture to support this claim? The Scriptures say that Adam walked with God and yet he sinned. Enoch was said to walk with God and Paul said he had a testimony that he pleased God.

Butch would you say that you are born again that you have been given the gifts of the Holy Spirit?

Because my question to you is why not use the gifts of the Holy Spirit to answer your question it's what it's there for for teaching for learning healing for helping all sorts of things. All you have to do busy ask ask the Lord he will reveal it to you.

Some things we just take on faith.

It's written that God created the world in all in it in my mind I would say that God created everything including us. It says in the scripture that everything was created for Jesus and as Jesus came to us we too were created for Jesus.

 

[B-A-C]

Gen 1:27; God created man in His own image, in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them.

Gen 6:7; The LORD said, "I will blot out man whom I have created from the face of the land, from man to animals to creeping things and to birds of the sky; for I am sorry that I have made them."

Isa 45:12; "It is I who made the earth, and created man upon it. I stretched out the heavens with My hands And I ordained all their host.

Mal 2:10; "Do we not all have one father? Has not one God created us? Why do we deal treacherously each against his brother so as to profane the covenant of our fathers?

Col 1:16; For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things have been created through Him and for Him.

1Tim 2:13; For it was Adam who was first created, and then Eve.

John 1:3; All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being.

=================


1Cor 15:45; So also it is written, "The first MAN, Adam, BECAME A LIVING SOUL." The last Adam became a life-giving spirit.
1Cor 15:47; The first man is from the earth, earthy; the second man is from heaven.

 

[Samson2020]

. Enoch was said to walk with God and Paul said he had a testimony that he pleased God.

But yet Enoch was still under the ALL in unbelief category.

The Scriptures say that Adam walked with God and yet he sinned.

Necessary to cause the fall so that the experience of good and evil could begin. It was planned. You should know this.

 

[Butch5]

What is your definition of created? We both agree that the spirit came from the Father and that we were born into condemnation, and that God created our
bodies in the womb. What more do you want?
Matthew 5:36 "Neither shalt thou swear by thy head, because thou canst not make one hair white or black."



And that should surprise me?



Which I gave reference to the seeing of it in the scripture concerning Peter and Jesus' interaction prior to and in the garden prior to his betrayal and crucifixion.
Matthew 16:23 vs Luke 22:42 areas, you should see the difference in the mind set. There was the mind of Christ then there was what we see in the Garden and they are
different. If one cannot see that I can't help you much.
Adam went in to his wife eve and knew his wife and she conceived. Do we have scripture that tells us exactly what happened or do we just know when he says knew
his wife how she conceived?

The first Adam was a sinless being not having the curses yet, the last Adam could only be the last Adam if he had the same opportunity as the first in that he was
born without the curses of Eden.

Isaiah 11:1-2 "And there shall come forth a rod out of the stem of Jesse, and a Branch shall grow out of his roots: and the Spirit of the LORD shall rest upon him, the
spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and might, the spirit of knowledge and the fear of the LORD; and shall make him of quick understanding
in the fear of the LORD."
Luke 2:52 "Jesus grew in WISDOM and in stature and in favor with God and man." This was as a child.

Now how could these spirits of God rest upon this child if he had a carnal mind? The very definition of carnal is separation from God which is 100% contrary
to this scripture.

"God hath concluded them ALL in unbelief , that he might have mercy on ALL."
Do you believe that Jesus was in this category? If so then he was a disbeliever in/of God and we both know that was never the case.

Why hast thou forsaken me. Sounds like a separation from his Father to me. Which brings us back to carnal mind, the very thing crucified.

You're assuming things here. I didn't say I agreed that God formed us in the womb. I didn't say I agreed that we were born into condemnation. Whether I believe them or not hasn't been established. You've simply assumed them.

Yes, you gave reference to Jesus and Peter. However, it's your opinion of the situation. That you understand it that way doesn't mean that's the correct understanding.

The definition of carnal is not separation from God. Here is Webster's definition of carnal: "relating to or given to crude bodily pleasures and appetites".
I think you're conflating a carnal mind with a physical brain. The brain controls thoughts and it is in the brain where sin is conceived. Jesus' brain was just as human as anyone else's. Jesus had the capacity to sin if He chose to. He chose not to. That's what makes His feat so amazing. How did the Spirit fall on the Apostles? Where they not able to sin?

 

[Butch5]

But yet Enoch was still under the ALL in unbelief category.


Necessary to cause the fall so that the experience of good and evil could begin. It was planned. You should know this.

So, you're explaining away the evidence that doesn't agree with you?

You're talking that passage from Romans out context. The "all" who were in unbelief were the Israelites in context.

 

[Samson2020]

You're talking that passage from Romans out context. The "all" who were in unbelief were the Israelites in context.

Then its only the Israelites that God is going to have mercy on?

 

[Butch5]

Butch would you say that you are born again that you have been given the gifts of the Holy Spirit?

Because my question to you is why not use the gifts of the Holy Spirit to answer your question it's what it's there for for teaching for learning healing for helping all sorts of things. All you have to do busy ask ask the Lord he will reveal it to you.

Some things we just take on faith.

It's written that God created the world in all in it in my mind I would say that God created everything including us. It says in the scripture that everything was created for Jesus and as Jesus came to us we too were created for Jesus.

The phrase born again refers to Israel, (the other thread). I've been born of God. Which gifts are you referring to? A lot of Christians claim that they have been taught through the Spirit yet they believe many different and often opposing things. I would venture to say that many are wrong., unless one wants to make the argument that the Spirit teaches contrary to Scripture. If one can't point to stated Scripture to validate their claim then what they say needs to be considered. It may correct, it may not be. However, what is interesting is that the apostle Paul commended the Bereans for not just accepting his words but rather going to the Scriptures to see if what he said was true. In addition, Paul who wrote much of the New Testament repeatedly quotes Old Testament Scriptures to prove his argument. He doesn't just ask them to take his word for it. He doesn't say, it's obvious, or it seems to me. He provides Scripture to back up what he said. This is really interesting since he could have just said, I'm an apostle of Christ, believe me.

You said, "Some things we just take on faith." Been there, done that. It leads to being lead astray.

You know what's funny, I see people talking about the Spirit teaching them and what they've learned has come from God. On the other hand the vast majority of Churches won't accept a pastor unless he's gone to seminary. There seems to be a disconnect there.

Now, I'm not saying that God or the Holy Spirit doesn't teach people. I just don't think it happens as much as people claim.

 

[Trevor]

Everyone has the breath of life in them. I didn't say God had no part in it. I asked for Scripture to support the claim that God created each of us. I'm still waiting for that.

You said that Jesus didn't have a mind like us. I asked if you had supportive Scripture. You've given me opinion based on your reasoning. Statements such as, "it should be obvious" and "it would seem to me" are rationalizations. They show me that you're interpreting what your'e reading based on what you understand to be true in Scripture. However, what you believe to be true and what someone else believes to be true may be different. Therefore, what seems obvious to you may not be seem obvious to someone else. That's why I asked for Scripture.

Now, Scripture says that Jesus was made like His brethren in all things.

Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people. (Heb. 2:17 KJV)

If Jesus didn't have a mind like us and couldn't sin, then being sinless wouldn't be a great accomplishment. Being sinless is only a great accomplishment if one has the capacity to sin. Also, Jesus is set forth as an example for us. If He was unable to sin then He wouldn't be an example to us.

You said, "A person who has no sin cannot have a carnal mind as this is the state of separation from God." This is an arbitrary statement. Do you have Scripture to support this claim? The Scriptures say that Adam walked with God and yet he sinned. Enoch was said to walk with God and Paul said he had a testimony that he pleased God.

Hi Butch
Mark10:17-18, As Jesus started on his way, a man ran up to him and fell on his knees before him. "Good teacher," he asked, "what must I do to inherit eternal life?" "Why do you call me good?" Jesus answered, "No-one is good --- except God alone." Interesting, don't you think? Bless you.

 

[Butch5]

Then its only the Israelites that God is going to have mercy on?

you're out of context. Read the passage in context. This is why we have so many different beliefs.

13 For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office:
14 If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them.
15 For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?
16 For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches.
17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;1
18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.
19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in.
20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.
24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree?
25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.1
26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.
29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.
30 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief:1
31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.1
32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.1
(Rom. 11:13-32 KJV)

In the book of Romans Paul opens addressing the church. At 2:17 he begins to address the Jews in the Church. At 11:13 he turns his attention to the Gentiles. So, in the above passage Paul is speaking to the Gentiles, they are the "ye" in verse 30. He says that they, in times past, had not believed God, but now have obtained mercy. Then he says, "even so have these also now not believed". These are the Jews or the Israelites. So, those unbelieving Jews have not obtained mercy, but the believing Gentiles have. Then he says that through "your mercy", the mercy that the Gentiles received, "they" those unbelieving Jews may also obtain mercy. Then he says that God has concluded them all in unbelief. The "them" is those unbelieving Jews. There is a contrast between "you" and "them" in this passage. Paul didn't say God has concluded everyone who will ever be born in unbelief.

 

[Samson2020]

Yes, you gave reference to Jesus and Peter. However, it's your opinion of the situation.

Did you read it and can you explain why Jesus changed his position from calling Peter Satan and then asking for the same relief from his situation just a few hrs later?

And like I said there was a first Adam born sinless and a second Adam that had to be born sinless to even be considered the last Adam, and if not born sinless
then Jesus was a sinner. We both know thats not true so how else does one get born sinless, without God being the Father of their flesh?
"And that HOLY THING which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God."

When Jesus was tempted he already had the full measure of the Holy Ghost, did Adam?

Isaiah 1:18 " Come now, and let us REASON together, saith the LORD:.................." Spiritual discernment.

 

[Samson2020]

Paul didn't say God has concluded everyone who will ever be born in unbelief.

That would refute Romans 5:18 as everyone was condemned due to Adams sin. And lived according to carnality and thus all have been sinners and died.

 

[Samson2020]

I didn't say I agreed that God formed us in the womb

Col 1:16; For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things have been created through Him and for Him.

Psalms 139:16.............and in thy book all my members were writtern, which in continuance were fashioned, when as yet there were none of them." They were formed when
made in the womb, only way to get a new human.

 

[Samson2020]

Paul didn't say God has concluded everyone who will ever be born in unbelief.

Acts 4:12 "Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved." Everyone must
come to and through Jesus Christ to be saved thus mercy on all, and until born again or from above your an UNBELIEVER, no faith. So God has concluded all in
unbelief for they are not yet born again. Whether Paul says that or not in Romans.

 

[Trevor]

Did you read it and can you explain why Jesus changed his position from calling Peter Satan and then asking for the same

Did you read it and can you explain why Jesus changed his position from calling Peter Satan and then asking for the same relief from his situation just a few hrs later?

relief from his situation just a few hrs later?

And like I said there was a first Adam born sinless and a second Adam that had to be born sinless to even be considered the last Adam, and if not born sinless
then Jesus was a sinner. We both know thats not true so how else does one get born sinless, without God being the Father of their flesh?
"And that HOLY THING which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God."

When Jesus was tempted he already had the full measure of the Holy Ghost, did Adam?

Isaiah 1:18 " Come now, and let us REASON together, saith the LORD:.................." Spiritual discernment.

Hi Samson, I believe Jesus was talking to Satan, not Peter. Satan was influencing Peter, and Jesus told him to stop.

 

[Butch5]

Acts 4:12 "Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved." Everyone must
come to and through Jesus Christ to be saved thus mercy on all, and until born again or from above your an UNBELIEVER, no faith. So God has concluded all in
unbelief for they are not yet born again. Whether Paul says that or not in Romans.

You're trying to make a case outside of Romans. The passage you quoted, in context, is about Israel. Your argument doesn't change that. However, not everyone who hasn't heard the Gospel is in unbelief. To be in unbelief one has to have something to believe. You can't disbelieve something you've never heard of.

The word that translated unbelief is not the word for believe. It means to be obstinate, or in opposition to. Those who are in opposition to the Gospel have heard the Gospel. They opposed it.

 

[Butch5]

Psalms 139:16.............and in thy book all my members were writtern, which in continuance were fashioned, when as yet there were none of them." They were formed when
made in the womb, only way to get a new human.

Yes, David was a prophet from the womb. How does this prove that God created Joe with red hair and blue eyes?

 

[Butch5]

That would refute Romans 5:18 as everyone was condemned due to Adams sin. And lived according to carnality and thus all have been sinners and died.

No it doesn't. Being a sinner doesn't necessitate that one doesn't believe.

 

[Butch5]

Did you read it and can you explain why Jesus changed his position from calling Peter Satan and then asking for the same relief from his situation just a few hrs later?

And like I said there was a first Adam born sinless and a second Adam that had to be born sinless to even be considered the last Adam, and if not born sinless
then Jesus was a sinner. We both know thats not true so how else does one get born sinless, without God being the Father of their flesh?
"And that HOLY THING which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God."

When Jesus was tempted he already had the full measure of the Holy Ghost, did Adam?

Isaiah 1:18 " Come now, and let us REASON together, saith the LORD:.................." Spiritual discernment.

Changed His position? You were talking about a change of mind. All through the Scripture Jesus' position was to do the will of the Father. I'm not sure where you see here a change from a non carnal mind to a carnal mind. What changed?

Everyone is born sinless. The word sinner is a verb. It's an action. If one hasn't committed sin they are not a sinner.

 

[Samson2020]

Hi Samson, I believe Jesus was talking to Satan, not Peter. Satan was influencing Peter, and Jesus told him to stop.

It's a possibility. My reference was to the mindset of the Lord as he rebuked Peter for saying that he should not be crucified. Then hrs later prayed for the same
thing himself. So was Jesus still in the mind of Christ? Or was he in the same state of mind as Peter or Satan as you believe? There is an obvious change in his attitude
towards his destination.