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Faith or works or both?

Salvation is the Beginning of the Christian life. And God Does have a plan for each of our lives. He has given us all different personalities / interests. And, yes, it IS up to the individual as to what they Do with their lives. God Does lead but usually doesn't Force.

Love, yes. But there's more than That. A person Can simply go around saying "I Love you'' to everyone and not do another thing. And maybe those people Did need to hear someone say "I love you" to them. But How is it being said. Grudgingly or with a smile.
this is why i argue so much with Christians about having faith alone . Faith alone will not stand . Faith in Jesus or as Scripture says "God is Love" , faith is what we begin with but once we recieve Jesus and fan into a flame our Love for God, we are unstoppable.

I love you sister, deeply.

But i look forward to your reply
 
I've been sitting here thinking. Ephesians 2:8-9 comes to mind. "For by grace ye are saved through faith, and That , not of ourselves, it is a gift from God. Not of works, lest any man should boast.. There's a temptation to make salvation too complicated.

Hebrews 11:1 "Now faith is the substance o things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen." vs 3 "By faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the Word of God. so that the things which are seen were not made of things which are visible. The 'faith' chapter.

The verse that says -- Romans 10:17 "so then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the Word of God" -- that entire chapter. And vs 14.

Faith in Jesus AND God Is love. They aren't the same things.

Are you by chance from a Pentecostal background? "but once we receive Jesus and fan into a flame our love for God, we are unstoppable".

Question for you -- you typed "I love you sister, deeply" what does that really mean to You. And what do you think it means to Me when I read it.
 
This is Matthew Henry commentary on James 2:14-26 which I find extremely helpful. M.H. Commentary

Verses 14-26 In this latter part of the chapter, the apostle shows the error of those who rested in a bare profession of the Christian faith, as if that would save them, while the temper of their minds and the tenour of their lives were altogether disagreeable to that holy religion which they professed. To let them see, therefore, what a wretched foundation they built their hopes upon, it is here proved at large that a man is justified, not by faith only, but by works. Now,

I. Upon this arises a very great question, namely, how to reconcile Paul and James. Paul, in his epistles to the Romans and Galatians, seems to assert the directly contrary thing to what James here lays down, saying if often, and with a great deal of emphasis, that we are justified byfaith only and not by the works of the law. Amicae scripturarum lites, utinam et nostrae—There is a very happy agreement between one part of scripture and another, notwithstanding seeming differences: it were well if the differences among Christians were as easily reconciled. "Nothing,’’ says Mr. Baxter, "but men’s misunderstanding the plain drift and sense of Paul’s epistles, could make so many take it for a matter of great difficulty to reconcile Paul and James.’’ A general view of those things which are insisted on by the Antinomians may be seen in Mr. Baxter’s Paraphrase: and many ways might be mentioned which have been invented among learned men to make the apostles agree; but it may be sufficient only to observe these few things following:—1. When Paul says that a man is justified by faith, without the deeds of the law (Rom. 3:28 ), he plainly speaks of another sort of work than James does, but not of another sort of faith. Paul speaks of works wrought in obedience to the law of Moses, and before men’s embracing the faith of the gospel; and he had to deal with those who valued themselves so highly upon those works that they rejected the gospel (as Rom. 10, , at the beginning most expressly declares); but James speaks of works done in obedience to the gospel, and as the proper and necessary effects and fruits of sound believing in Christ Jesus. Both are concerned to magnify the faith of the gospel, as that which alone could save us and justify us; but Paul magnifies it by showing the insufficiency of any works of the law before faith, or in opposition to the doctrine of justification by Jesus Christ; James magnifies the same faith, by showing what are the genuine and necessary products and operations of it. 2. Paul not only speaks of different works from those insisted on by James, but he speaks of a quite different use that was made of good works from what is here urged and intended. Paul had to do with those who depended on the merit of their works in the sight of God, and thus he might well make them of no manner of account. James had to do with those who cried up faith, but would not allow works to be used even as evidence; they depended upon a bare profession, as sufficient to justify them; and with these he might well urge the necessity and vast importance of good works. As we must not break one table of the law, by dashing it against the other, so neither must we break in pieces the law and the gospel, by making them clash with one another: those who cry up the gospel so as to set aside the law, and those who cry up the law so as to set aside the gospel, are both in the wrong; for we must take our work before us; there must be both faith in Jesus Christ and good works the fruit of faith. 3. The justification of which Paul speaks is different from that spoken of by James; the one speaks of our persons being justified before God, the other speaks of our faith being justified before men: "Show me thy faith by thy works,’’ says James, "let thy faith be justified in the eyes of those that behold thee by thy works;’’ but Paul speaks of justification in the sight of God, who justifies those only that believe in Jesus, and purely on account of the redemption that is in him. Thus we see that our persons are justified before God by faith, but our faith is justified before men by works. This is so plainly the scope and design of the apostle James that he is but confirming what Paul, in other places, says of his faith, that it is a laborious faith, and a faith working by love, Gal. 5:6 ; 1 Th. 1:3 ; Titus. 3:8 ; and many other places. 4. Paul may be understood as speaking of that justification which is inchoate, James of that which is complete; it is by faith only that we are put into a justified state, but then good works come in for the completing of our justification at the last great day; then, Come you children of my Father—for I was hungry, and you gave me meat, etc.

II. Having thus cleared this part of scripture from every thing of a contradiction to other parts of it, let us see what is more particularly to be learnt from this excellent passage of James; we are taught,

1. That faith without works will not profit, and cannot save us. What doth it profit, my brethren, if a man say he hath faith, and have not works? Can faith save him?Observe here, (1.) That faith which does not save will not really profit us; a bare profession may sometimes seem to be profitable, to gain the good opinion of those who are truly good, and it may procure in some cases worldly good things; but what profit will this be, for any to gain the world and to lose their souls? What doth it profit?—Can faith save him? All things should be accounted profitable or unprofitable to us as they tend to forward or hinder the salvation of our souls. And, above all other things, we should take care thus to make account of faith, as that which does not profit, if it do not save, but will aggravate our condemnation and destruction at last. (2.) For a man to have faith, and to say he has faith, are two different things; the apostle does not say, If a man have faith without works, for that is not a supposable case; the drift of this place of scripture is plainly to show that an opinion, or speculation, or assent, without works, is not faith; but the case is put thus, If a man say he hath faith, etc. Men may boast of that to others, and be conceited of that in themselves, of which they are really destitute.
2. We are taught that, as love or charity is an operative principle, so is faith, and that neither of them would otherwise be good for any thing; and, by trying how it looks for a person to pretend he is very charitable who yet never does any works of charity, you may judge what sense there is in pretending to have faith without the proper and necessary fruits of it: "If a brother or a sister be naked, and destitute of daily food, and one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be you warmed and filled, notwithstanding you give them not those things which are needful to the body, what doth it profit? v. 15-17. What will such a charity as this, that consists in bare words, avail either you or the poor? Will you come before God with such empty shows of charity as these? You might as well pretend that your love and charity will stand the test without acts of mercy as think that a profession of faith will bear you out before God without works of piety and obedience. Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being along,’’ v. 17. We are too apt to rest in a bare profession of faith, and to think that this will save us; it is a cheap and easy religion to say, "We believe the articles of the Christian faith;’’ but it is a great delusion to imagine that this is enough to bring us to heaven. Those who argue thus wrong God, and put a cheat upon their own souls; a mock-faith is as hateful as mock-charity, and both show a heart dead to all real godliness. You may as soon take pleasure in a dead body, void of soul, or sense, or action, as God take pleasure in a dead faith, where there are no works.
3. We are taught to compare a faith boasting of itself without works and a faith evidenced by works, by looking on both together, to try how this comparison will work upon our minds. Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works. Show me thy faith without thy works, and I will show thee my faith by my works, v. 18. Suppose a true believer thus pleading with a boasting hypocrite, "Thou makest a profession, and sayest thou hast faith; I make no such boasts, but leave my works to speak for me. Now give any evidence of having the faith thou professest without works if thou canst, and I will soon let thee see how my works flow from faith and are the undoubted evidences of its existence.’’ This is the evidence by which the scriptures all along teach men to judge both of themselves and others. And this is the evidence according to which Christ will proceed at the day of judgment. The dead were judged according to their works, Rev. 20:12 . How will those be exposed then who boast of that which they cannot evidence, or who go about to evidence their faith by any thing but works of piety and mercy!
4. We are taught to look upon a faith of bare speculation and knowledge as the faith of devils: Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well; the devils also believe, and tremble, v. 19. That instance of faith which the apostle here chooses to mention is the first principle of all religion. "Thou believest that there is a God, against the atheists; and that there is but one God, against the idolaters; thou doest well: so far all is right. But to rest here, and take up a good opinion of thyself, or of thy state towards God, merely on account of thy believing in him, this will render thee miserable: The devils also believe, and tremble. If thou contentest thyself with a bare assent to articles of faith, and some speculations upon them, thus far the devils go. And as their faith and knowledge only serve to excite horror, so in a little time will thine.’’ The word tremble is commonly looked upon as denoting a good effect of faith; but here it may rather be taken as a bad effect, when applied to the faith of devils. They tremble, not out of reverence, but hatred and opposition to that one God on whom they believe. To rehearse that article of our creed, therefore, I believe in God the Father Almighty, will not distinguish us from devils at last, unless we now give up ourselves to God as the gospel directs, and love him, and delight ourselves in him, and serve him, which the devils do not, cannot do.
5. We are taught that he who boasts of faith without works is to be looked upon at present as a foolish condemned person. But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead? v. 20. The words translated vain mananthrope kene, are observed to have the same signification with the word Raca, which must never be used to private persons, or as an effect of anger (Mt. 5:22 ), but may be used as here, to denote a just detestation of such a sort of men as are empty of good works, and yet boasters of their faith. And it plainly declares them fools and abjects in the sight of God. Faith without works is said to be dead, not only as void of all those operations which are the proofs of spiritual life, but as unavailable to eternal life: such believers as rest in a bare profession of faith are dead while they live.
6. We are taught that a justifying faith cannot be without works, from two examples, Abraham and Rahab.
(1.) The first instance is that of Abraham, the father of the faithful, and the prime example of justification, to whom the Jews had a special regard (v. 21): Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? Paul, on the other hand, says (in ch. 4 of the epistle to the Romans) that Abraham believed, and it was counted to him for righteousness. But these are well reconciled, by observing what is said in Heb. 11, , which shows that the faith both of Abraham and Rahab was such as to produce those good works of which James speaks, and which are not to be separated from faith as justifying and saving. By what Abraham did, it appeared that he truly believed. Upon this footing, the words of God himself plainly put this matter.Gen. 22:16, Gen. 22:17 , Because thou hast done this thing, and hast not withheld thy son, thine only son; therefore in blessing I will bless thee. Thus the faith of Abraham was a working faith (v. 22), it wrought with his works, and by works was made perfect. And by this means you come to the true sense of that scripture which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness, v. 23. And thus he became the friend of God. Faith, producing such works, endeared him to the divine Being, and advanced him to very peculiar favours and intimacies with God. It is a great honour done to Abraham that he is called and counted the friend of God. You see then (v. 24) how that by works a man is justified (comes into such a state of favour and friendship with God), and not by faith only; not by a bare opinion, or profession, or believing without obeying, but by having such a faith as is productive of good works. Now besides the explication of this passage and example, as thus illustrating and supporting the argument James is upon, many other useful lessons may be learned by us from what is here said concerning Abraham. [1.] Those who would have Abraham’s blessings must be careful to copy after his faith: to boast of being Abraham’s seed will not avail any, if they do not believe as he did. [2.] Those works which evidence true faith must to works of self-denial, and such as God himself commands (as Abraham’s offering up his son, his only son, was), and not such works as are pleasing to flesh and blood and may serve our interest, or are the mere fruits of our own imagination and devising. [3.] What we piously purpose and sincerely resolve to do for God is accepted as if actually performed. Thus Abraham is regarded as offering up his son, though he did not actually proceed to make a sacrifice of him. It was a done thing in the mind, and spirit, and resolution of Abraham, and God accepts it as if fully performed and accomplished. [4.] The actings of faith make it grow perfect, as the truth of faith makes it act. [5.] Such an acting faith will make others, as well as Abraham, friends of God. Thus Christ says to his disciples, I have called you friends, Jn. 15:15 . All transactions between God and the truly believing soul are easy, pleasant, and delightful. There is one will and one heart, and there is a mutual complacency. God rejoiceth over those who truly believe, to do them good; and they delight themselves in him.
(2.) The second example of faith’s justifying itself and us with and by works is Rahab: Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way? v. 25. The former instance was of one renowned for his faith all his life long, This is of one noted for sin, whose faith was meaner and of a much lower degree; so that the strongest faith will not do, nor the meanest be allowed to go without works. Some say that the word here rendered harlotwas the proper name of Rahab. Others tell us that it signifies no more than a hostess, or one who keeps a public house, with whom therefore the spies lodged. But it is very probable that her character was infamous; and such an instance is mentioned to show that faith will save the worst, when evidenced by proper works; and it will not save the best without such works as God requires. This Rahab believed the report she had heard of God’s powerful presence with Israel; but that which proved her faith sincere was, that, to the hazard of her life, she received the messengers, and sent them out another way. Observe here, [1.] The wonderful power of faith in transforming and changing sinners. [2.] The regard which an operative faith meets with from God, to obtain his mercy and favour. [3.] Where great sins are pardoned, there must prefer the honour of God and the good of his people before the preservation of her own country. Her former acquaintance must be discarded, her former course of life entirely abandoned, and she must give signal proof and evidence of this before she can be in a justified state; and even after she is justified, yet her former character must be remembered; not so much to her dishonour as to glorify the rich grace and mercy of God. Though justified, she is called Rahab the harlot.
7. And now, upon the whole matter, the apostle draws this conclusion, As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also, v. 26. These words are read differently; some reading them, As the body without the breath is dead, so is faith without works: and then they show that works are the companions of faith, as breathing is of life. Others read them, As the body without the soul is dead, so faith without works is dead also: and then they show that as the body has no action, nor beauty, but becomes a loathsome carcass, when the soul is gone, so a bare profession without works is useless, yea, loathsome and offensive. Let us then take head of running into extremes in this case. For, (1.) The best works, without faith, are dead; they want their root and principle. It is by faith that any thing we do is really good, as done with an eye to God, in obedience to him, and so as to aim principally at his acceptance. (2.) The most plausible profession of faith, without works, is dead: as the root is dead when it produces nothing green, nothing of fruit. Faith is the root, good works are the fruits, and we must see to it that we have both. We must not think that either, without the other, will justify and save us. This is the grace of God wherein we stand, and we should stand to it.
 
@Tristan W -- do you really think anyone is going to read all of that?! If you really want it read -- break it up into smaller ''bite -sized" pieces, please.

I'm not a moderator -- just another poster who Does like to read other people's comments, but that which you just posted .... well...... a bit LONG. And probably lots of good material.
 
@Tristan W -- do you really think anyone is going to read all of that?! If you really want it read -- break it up into smaller ''bite -sized" pieces, please.

I'm not a moderator -- just another poster who Does like to read other people's comments, but that which you just posted .... well...... a bit LONG. And probably lots of good material.
Click on the link in the first sentence. "M. H. Commentary" will take you to its page. On a desktop monitor it's more inviting.
 
Greetings,

I am reminded of a book by Richard Wurmbrand. 'If that were Christ, would you give Him your blanket?'

"Two Chinese Christian shivered with cold in a cell. Each had a thin blanket. One of the Christians looked to the other and saw how he trembled. The thought came to him, 'If that were Christ, would you give Him your blanket?' Of course he would. Immediately he spread the blanket over his brother...."


Bless you ....><>
 
Click on the link in the first sentence. "M. H. Commentary" will take you to its page. On a desktop monitor it's more inviting.



I just clicked into it -- still LOTS and LOTS of small print to read. Maybe you could put it in your own briefer words. :)
 
I think there is no reconciling to do for us.. God reconciled us to himself. With Jesus in me I guestion nothing about his word. The fact that I don't understand something is perfectly natural.
 
I just clicked into it -- still LOTS and LOTS of small print to read. Maybe you could put it in your own briefer words. :smile:
@The_Leap_Of_Faith and @Sue D. I would highly suggest when you have time to read the commentary. It is exhaustive and can help many of your questions be answered and verified.

@Sue D. Ok, I will be brief per your request.

I believe that faith without works is a dead faith and a profitless faith from James 2:17, James 2:15-16 and James 2:26. James 1:22 also instructs us to be doers of God's word. One cannot hold simply to faith alone or works alone without being in error. They go hand in hand; the faith needed is a moving and working faith so that it runs its course to completion, see James 2:22.

My shortest answer to thread's title is both. And to clarify is that faith in God precedes works in God, as hearing the word precedes doing the word.
 
Something from my skim read of Matthew Henry that I found useful was the observation that Paul and James have the same thing in mind when they talk of faith, but different things when they talk of works.

Paul is referencing the works laid down in the Torah - especially those that distinguish Jews from gentiles, such as circumcision and the dietary requirements.

When James talk about works, he means acts of compassion and charity, such as caring for widows and orphans.
 
Something from my skim read of Matthew Henry that I found useful was the observation that Paul and James have the same thing in mind when they talk of faith, but different things when they talk of works.

Paul is referencing the works laid down in the Torah - especially those that distinguish Jews from gentiles, such as circumcision and the dietary requirements.

When James talk about works, he means acts of compassion and charity, such as caring for widows and orphans.
Yes! I found that helpful as well! I took it as truth, so now I need to dig in a verify for myself. Isn't God's word awesome! Praise Him!
 
this is why i argue so much with Christians about having faith alone . Faith alone will not stand . Faith in Jesus or as Scripture says "God is Love" , faith is what we begin with but once we recieve Jesus and fan into a flame our Love for God, we are unstoppable.

I love you sister, deeply.

But i look forward to your reply
Where does faith come from?
 



18 But I say, have they not heard? Yes indeed: "Their sound has gone out to all the earth, And their words to the ends of the world."

19 But I say, did Israel not know? First Moses says: "I will provoke you to jealousy by those who are not a nation, I will move you to anger by a foolish nation."

20 But Isaiah is very bold and says: "I was found by those who did not seek Me; I was made manifest to those who did not ask for Me."

21 But to Israel he says: "All day long I have stretched out My hands To a disobedient and contrary people."

Faith comes by hearing the Word of God, the Holy Spirit does the rest

Hebrews 11:1-3 (NKJV)
1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.
2 For by it the elders obtained a good testimony.
3 By faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that the things which are seen were not made of things which are visible.

Hebrews 11:6 (NKJV)
6 But without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him.

That's why God gives us His Word, The Word.

Romans 10:17-21 (NKJV)
17 So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
 
I've been sitting here thinking. Ephesians 2:8-9 comes to mind. "For by grace ye are saved through faith, and That , not of ourselves, it is a gift from God. Not of works, lest any man should boast.. There's a temptation to make salvation too complicated.

Hebrews 11:1 "Now faith is the substance o things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen." vs 3 "By faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the Word of God. so that the things which are seen were not made of things which are visible. The 'faith' chapter.

The verse that says -- Romans 10:17 "so then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the Word of God" -- that entire chapter. And vs 14.

Faith in Jesus AND God Is love. They aren't the same things.

Are you by chance from a Pentecostal background? "but once we receive Jesus and fan into a flame our love for God, we are unstoppable".

Question for you -- you typed "I love you sister, deeplycIpnt , i can sense a kinship
I've been sitting here thinking. Ephesians 2:8-9 comes to mind. "For by grace ye are saved through faith, and That , not of ourselves, it is a gift from God. Not of works, lest any man should boast.. There's a temptation to make salvation too complicated.

Hebrews 11:1 "Now faith is the substance o things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen." vs 3 "By faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the Word of God. so that the things which are seen were not made of things which are visible. The 'faith' chapter.

The verse that says -- Romans 10:17 "so then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the Word of God" -- that entire chapter. And vs 14.

Faith in Jesus AND God Is love. They aren't the same things.

Are you by chance from a Pentecostal background? "but once we receive Jesus and fan into a flame our love for God, we are unstoppable".

Question for you -- you typed "I love you sister, deeply" what does that really mean to You. And what do you think it means to Me when I read it.
I love you sister , deeply . To me it means that yyou are a kindred spirit in the same focus of God as myself . With Love and Zeal for God. That God is center to who you are. Sure there are others of like mind and heart . No offence was ment , if you took it that way
 
I've been sitting here thinking. Ephesians 2:8-9 comes to mind. "For by grace ye are saved through faith, and That , not of ourselves, it is a gift from God. Not of works, lest any man should boast.. There's a temptation to make salvation too complicated.

Hebrews 11:1 "Now faith is the substance o things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen." vs 3 "By faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the Word of God. so that the things which are seen were not made of things which are visible. The 'faith' chapter.

The verse that says -- Romans 10:17 "so then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the Word of God" -- that entire chapter. And vs 14.

Faith in Jesus AND God Is love. They aren't the same things.

Are you by chance from a Pentecostal background? "but once we receive Jesus and fan into a flame our love for God, we are unstoppable".

Question for you -- you typed "I love you sister, deeply" what does that really mean to You. And what do you think it means to Me when I read it.
I typed my reply only to have the computer print nothing . Lol .

I love you sister , deeply .

When i read your thoughts , i see your enthusiasm and zeal for God and your love for God . It is like looking into a mirror . We have different backrounds , a little different thoughts on subjects , but God is still our Center .

If you took any offence to my comment it was never intended to be anything other .
 
@Bill -- computers Can seen to have a mind of their own -- I'd had Gmail message all typed up and ready to 'send' and hit the wrong key -- apparently hit the 'delete' key and sure enough it got deleted. Got to redo it and typed a bit more carefully. And sometimes it's the Forum editing that does it.

In my experience with life -- to have someone say "I love you sister, deeply" it means there is a deep emotional connection involved. Which obviously there isn't 'here'. No offense taken -- just wanted to make sure that there's no romantic thoughts on your part. And sometimes there Are those who 'we' come across who Do resonate more with than others.

In fact -- there Is an individual here on Forum that I Have connected with on Private Conversation as well as on Open Forum. That person is a really very nice person -- we have a nice friendship going. And I value Friendship.

I Think that I simply had 'yellow warning flashers' going off in my head when you said that.

People on Forum see each other only as we present ourselves 'in print' -- people are usually multi-faceted in nature.

So - on with the discussion :)

Faith or works -- as James says - the book Of. They go hand in hand. A person's faith in seen In their lives. I don't like to use the word 'works' because that sounds too much like a 'works' based salvation. Where is a person Placing their 'faith' -- in the shed blood of Christ on the cross Period? or -- on that Plus something they do Personally. And it is to be on Christ Alone.
 
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