Faith or works or both?

[Br. Bear]

God is faithful, by Whom ye were called unto the fellowship of His Son Jesus Christ our Lord.
1Corinthians 1:9


Although the fig tree shall not blossom,
neither shall fruit be in the vines;
the labour of the olive shall fail,
and the fields shall yield no meat;
the flock shall be cut off from the fold,
and there shall be no herd in the stalls:
Yet I will rejoice in the Lord,
I will joy in the God of my salvation.
Habakkuk 3:17-18


For this cause I bow my knees unto the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, of Whom the whole family in heaven and earth is named, that He would grant you, according to the riches of His glory, to be strengthened with might by His Spirit in the inner man;

that Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; that ye, being rooted and grounded in love, may be able to comprehend with all saints what is the breadth, and length, and depth, and height; and to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fulness of God.

Now unto Him that is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think, according to the power that worketh in us, unto Him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages, world without end. Amen.
Ephesians 3:14-21


Faithful is He that calleth you, Who also will do it.
1Thessalonians 5:24

 

[Sid2019]

Does the fact that we want to follow the commandments of Christ prove that we love Jesus?

Merely *wanting* to follow Jesus' commandments isn't enough.

James 2: 14-26 says:

14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?
15 If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,
16 And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?
17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?
26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

 

[Sue D.]

The 'wanting' to will lead To our 'doing'. But that's not 'doing' the Ten Commandments or following the Levitical laws in order to Keep our salvation. Rather it's that we will have the inner desire To do those things

When there's someone in our lives we like - we enjoy being around them -- we'll be Wanting to do things with and for them.

 

[Sid2019]

The 'wanting' to will lead To our 'doing'. But that's not 'doing' the Ten Commandments or following the Levitical laws in order to Keep our salvation. Rather it's that we will have the inner desire To do those things

When there's someone in our lives we like - we enjoy being around them -- we'll be Wanting to do things with and for them.

Other than the fact that Levitical doctrine was not being discussed here (the guy was referring to Jesus' commandments, not Moses'), your point was well taken- if not rather obvious. May I remind that it is not about "wanting". A commandment is exactly that, a command... do it or else.

The "wanting" lies rather in "do I WANT my salvation or not". We BETTER want to obey Jesus. See?

Penitent obedience is a direct result of NOT wanting condemnation that leads to damnation. And good luck with that "being led by your heart" thing.

As for that "someone" in our lives, please be specific whether that be Jesus. I wouldn't want to condone an un-scriptural LGBT relationship by mistake if I agreed too quickly with this.

 

[Sue D.]

Well -- I was simply covering all the possible laws that someone might think are required to be followed.

Your second sentence -- 'do I Want my salvation or not' -- well -- salvation is a gift from God. One of the roles of the Holy Spirit is that of convicting a person Of their sins. / their sinfulness. Keeping the Ten Commandments -- they were given by God -- will Not guarantee anyone's salvation. The Holy Spirit puts the 'want to' into our heart.

"being led by your heart" thing -- why? because of the verse that says that our hearts are deceitful above all things and despiritely wicked. Well -- that means that we need to guard our hearts and keep them in tune with Scripture. Our hearts are very capable of leading us to Good , Positive things.

My last sentence -- when someone is in our lives ....... that would be Jesus Christ or our spouse or a good friend. Since we're talking about Scripture -- gay friendships would not be included. Why would you think it Would be.

This world is so saturated With 'gay rights' it's kind of pathetic.

 

[Sid2019]

Well -- I was simply covering all the possible laws that someone might think are required to be followed.

Your second sentence -- 'do I Want my salvation or not' -- well -- salvation is a gift from God. One of the roles of the Holy Spirit is that of convicting a person Of their sins. / their sinfulness. Keeping the Ten Commandments -- they were given by God -- will Not guarantee anyone's salvation. The Holy Spirit puts the 'want to' into our heart.

"being led by your heart" thing -- why? because of the verse that says that our hearts are deceitful above all things and despiritely wicked. Well -- that means that we need to guard our hearts and keep them in tune with Scripture. Our hearts are very capable of leading us to Good , Positive things.

My last sentence -- when someone is in our lives ....... that would be Jesus Christ or our spouse or a good friend. Since we're talking about Scripture -- gay friendships would not be included. Why would you think it Would be.

This world is so saturated With 'gay rights' it's kind of pathetic.

Sue

I re-read my post to you and saw that it looked a little argumentative and I tried to edit it - apparently I went over some kind of 30-minute limit thing. I didn't mean to come off bad. I like your reply and of course I agree with you. I agree with Scripture and I can see now that you do as well. There are so many ways people take this or that verse from the Bible and obey it, leaving others out- and you have to admit there are many who twist it. Entire denominations were established because of this, not to mention the "prosperity gospel" churches, that more or less do the same thing- there is a ton of political correctness in those churches and we won't hear anything about Sodom or Gomorrah in those, to be sure. That was why I wanted to clear that up about LGBT. Not that I meant to accuse, only to clarify in case someone from their ilk may read it and take scripture the wrong way.

Yes you're right, the world is certainly saturated with gay rights. The same will try to lecture us as Christians about God's Word. Why not, Liberals do it with everything else. Transvestites arrogantly push their views on human anatomy onto us, socialists try to teach us about economics... baby killers who dare to tell us what morality is... all a recipe for another day of wrath. One that is coming soon.

You have a nice day, Sue. Nice to meet you :smile:

 

[Sue D.]

Nice to meet you, too.

 

[gordon]

Faith-or-works-or-both?

How does God do things, because it is Him we are following after.

God created the heaven and the earth. All was dark and God moved that darkness into light...

Genesis 1: 1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.
3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.

God also created man, and all the heavens and the earth, then rested from His work He had done. God had said let there be light, and there was light at His word...

Genesis 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

Genesis 2:1 Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them.
2 And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made.

This was the Word that created all, God's Word is to say it, and it is done. He is life, and that life is the light that came for men to live. We understand then, that the worlds were made by the Word of God, ( Jesus Christ is that Word and it is faith that is in Jesus Christ)...

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 The same was in the beginning with God.
3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.

Hebrews 11:3 Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.

Jesus shows if you have faith, the mountain removes to where you cast it. The winds and the sea obeyed Christ. If you have faith, and command the sycamine tree it should obey you....

Matthew 21:21 Jesus answered and said unto them, Verily I say unto you, If ye have faith, and doubt not, ye shall not only do this which is done to the fig tree, but also if ye shall say unto this mountain, Be thou removed, and be thou cast into the sea; it shall be done.

Luke 8:25 And he said unto them, Where is your faith? And they being afraid wondered, saying one to another, What manner of man is this! for he commandeth even the winds and water, and they obey him.

Luke 17:6 And the Lord said, If ye had faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye might say unto this sycamine tree, Be thou plucked up by the root, and be thou planted in the sea; and it should obey you.

A non doubting faith....works.

Jesus Christ is that faith, not our faith, the faith of Jesus Christ is faith. Faith and love are in Jesus Christ, they are not in man, without Jesus Christ ,nothing was made, that was made., and by Him and His faith, all things were made. The love of God is shed into our hearts, by the Holy Spirit which is given unto us, this is that faith of Christ, it is the love of Christ which passes all knowledge, who created all by saying to it, be and it was..

1 Timothy 1:14 And the grace of our Lord was exceeding abundant with faith and love which is in Christ Jesus.

Romans 5:5 And hope maketh not ashamed; because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us.

Ephesians 3:19 And to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fulness of God.

So God created all things by Jesus Christ, which is by faith, by the faith of Jesus Christ, His love too, to lay His life down for us, to also dwell in us, and make us one with Him..

Ephesians 3:9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:

Colossians 1:27 To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:

That is how God works, how He did them and continues to do them the same as always, and from that time of Christ 2000 years ago, no man is known after the flesh as every man on earth is normally any more, and then if any man is in Christ, they are a new creature, old things of natural man are passed away, all things become new, so everything they work in this life is through the faith of Christ. ( The love of Christ in them is the head, this is their mind, the mind of Christ:

Hebrews 13:8 Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.

2 Corinthians 5:16 Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more.
17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

1 Corinthians 2:16 For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? but we have the mind of Christ.

1 Corinthians 11:3 But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God.

 

[Yib2me]

What are the works of faith?

 

[Sue D.]

My faith in Christ will be seen by others through what I'm doing in my daily life.

 

[Yib2me]

My faith in Christ will be seen by others through what I'm doing in my daily life.

Hebrews 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

 

[Sue D.]

Yes, that is what faith it. Your comment was about the Works of faith.

 

[Yib2me]

Yes, that is what faith it. Your comment was about the Works of faith.

What is the evidence of the works of faith?

 

[B-A-C]

What is the evidence of the works of faith?

Is this a trick question. Faith IS a work.

1 Pet 1:7; so that the proof of your faith, being more precious than gold which is perishable, even though tested by fire, may be found to result in praise and glory and honor at the revelation of Jesus Christ;

Heb 11:4; By faith Abel offered to God a better sacrifice than Cain, through which he obtained the testimony that he was righteous, God testifying about his gifts, and through faith, though he is dead, he still speaks.
Heb 11:7; By faith Noah, being warned by God about things not yet seen, in reverence built an ark for the salvation of his household, by which he condemned the world, and became an heir of the righteousness which is according to faith.
Heb 11:8; By faith Abraham, when he was called, obeyed by going out to a place which he was to receive for an inheritance; and he went out, not knowing where he was going.
Heb 11:11; By faith even Sarah herself received ability to conceive, even beyond the proper time of life, since she considered Him faithful who had promised.
Heb 11:17; By faith Abraham, when he was tested, offered up Isaac, and he who had received the promises was offering up his only begotten son;
Heb 11:24; By faith Moses, when he had grown up, refused to be called the son of Pharaoh's daughter,
Heb 11:25; choosing rather to endure ill-treatment with the people of God than to enjoy the passing pleasures of sin,
Heb 11:29; By faith they passed through the Red Sea as though they were passing through dry land; and the Egyptians, when they attempted it, were drowned.
Heb 11:30; By faith the walls of Jericho fell down after they had been encircled for seven days.
Heb 11:31; By faith Rahab the harlot did not perish along with those who were disobedient, after she had hidden the spies in peace.

Heb 11:32; And what more shall I say? For time will fail me if I tell of Gideon, Barak, Samson, Jephthah, of David and Samuel and the prophets,
Heb 11:33; who by faith conquered kingdoms, performed acts of righteousness, obtained promises, shut the mouths of lions,

By faith David defeated Goliath. By faith Shadrach, Meshach and Abednigo lived through the fiery furnace, by faith the lion's mouths closed when Daniel was trapped amongst them.
Elijah called fire from heaven, Samson knocked a building down, Paul raised the dead, Peter walked on water...

There are literally dozens of examples of this all through out the Bible.

 

[Yib2me]

Is this a trick question. Faith IS a work.

1 Pet 1:7; so that the proof of your faith, being more precious than gold which is perishable, even though tested by fire, may be found to result in praise and glory and honor at the revelation of Jesus Christ;

Heb 11:4; By faith Abel offered to God a better sacrifice than Cain, through which he obtained the testimony that he was righteous, God testifying about his gifts, and through faith, though he is dead, he still speaks.
Heb 11:7; By faith Noah, being warned by God about things not yet seen, in reverence built an ark for the salvation of his household, by which he condemned the world, and became an heir of the righteousness which is according to faith.
Heb 11:8; By faith Abraham, when he was called, obeyed by going out to a place which he was to receive for an inheritance; and he went out, not knowing where he was going.
Heb 11:11; By faith even Sarah herself received ability to conceive, even beyond the proper time of life, since she considered Him faithful who had promised.
Heb 11:17; By faith Abraham, when he was tested, offered up Isaac, and he who had received the promises was offering up his only begotten son;
Heb 11:24; By faith Moses, when he had grown up, refused to be called the son of Pharaoh's daughter,
Heb 11:25; choosing rather to endure ill-treatment with the people of God than to enjoy the passing pleasures of sin,
Heb 11:29; By faith they passed through the Red Sea as though they were passing through dry land; and the Egyptians, when they attempted it, were drowned.
Heb 11:30; By faith the walls of Jericho fell down after they had been encircled for seven days.
Heb 11:31; By faith Rahab the harlot did not perish along with those who were disobedient, after she had hidden the spies in peace.

Heb 11:32; And what more shall I say? For time will fail me if I tell of Gideon, Barak, Samson, Jephthah, of David and Samuel and the prophets,
Heb 11:33; who by faith conquered kingdoms, performed acts of righteousness, obtained promises, shut the mouths of lions,

By faith David defeated Goliath. By faith Shadrach, Meshach and Abednigo lived through the fiery furnace, by faith the lion's mouths closed when Daniel was trapped amongst them.

There are literally dozens of examples of this all throught the Bible.

But you're not in the Bible I can read the evidence of the works of their faith but I can't with yours so that's why I have to ask you

Trick you?

There is no trick to telling the truth you just do it.

 

[Born Again 2004]

Maybe you're referring to spiritual gifts given by God at the time of salvation -- different than fruits of the spirit.

No, I wasn't, they are totally different. God, spirit ,is in you, it is His works through us...manifested, becomes the fruit of the spirit.

 

[Bill]

Works , the term . Is the biggest conundrum ever , or in other words , misunderstood .

The term " works " isnt anything that we do for ourselves , it is what we do for others in a selfless mode. Just look at Matt. 25 . These people stood before God. They didnt even know who Jesus was, yet they were the ones Jesus called " the Virtuous " . And why were they the Virtuous , its because they had done things for others .

All the while , those who knew Jesus were rejected.. " we cast out demons in you name " ( we already know , you have to be with Jesus to cast out demons in the first place, yet these were dismissed to hell. Because they also we not Virtuous.

 

[Bill]

Is this a trick question. Faith IS a work.

1 Pet 1:7; so that the proof of your faith, being more precious than gold which is perishable, even though tested by fire, may be found to result in praise and glory and honor at the revelation of Jesus Christ;

Heb 11:4; By faith Abel offered to God a better sacrifice than Cain, through which he obtained the testimony that he was righteous, God testifying about his gifts, and through faith, though he is dead, he still speaks.
Heb 11:7; By faith Noah, being warned by God about things not yet seen, in reverence built an ark for the salvation of his household, by which he condemned the world, and became an heir of the righteousness which is according to faith.
Heb 11:8; By faith Abraham, when he was called, obeyed by going out to a place which he was to receive for an inheritance; and he went out, not knowing where he was going.
Heb 11:11; By faith even Sarah herself received ability to conceive, even beyond the proper time of life, since she considered Him faithful who had promised.
Heb 11:17; By faith Abraham, when he was tested, offered up Isaac, and he who had received the promises was offering up his only begotten son;
Heb 11:24; By faith Moses, when he had grown up, refused to be called the son of Pharaoh's daughter,
Heb 11:25; choosing rather to endure ill-treatment with the people of God than to enjoy the passing pleasures of sin,
Heb 11:29; By faith they passed through the Red Sea as though they were passing through dry land; and the Egyptians, when they attempted it, were drowned.
Heb 11:30; By faith the walls of Jericho fell down after they had been encircled for seven days.
Heb 11:31; By faith Rahab the harlot did not perish along with those who were disobedient, after she had hidden the spies in peace.

Heb 11:32; And what more shall I say? For time will fail me if I tell of Gideon, Barak, Samson, Jephthah, of David and Samuel and the prophets,
Heb 11:33; who by faith conquered kingdoms, performed acts of righteousness, obtained promises, shut the mouths of lions,

By faith David defeated Goliath. By faith Shadrach, Meshach and Abednigo lived through the fiery furnace, by faith the lion's mouths closed when Daniel was trapped amongst them.
Elijah called fire from heaven, Samson knocked a building down, Paul raised the dead, Peter walked on water...

There are literally dozens of examples of this all through out the Bible.

Love is work to

 

[Bill]

My faith in Christ will be seen by others through what I'm doing in my daily life.

The term " works " means to be involved. You can not have Faith and not be involved . Faith without action ( or works ) is dead

 

[Dave M]

it is what we do for others in a selfless mode

I really like this, especially for myself as I try to learn to love my neighbor as myself, I fail miserably please pray for me. I think some other great scripture that support this is.

Philippians 2:3
Do nothing from rivalry or conceit, but in humility count others more significant than yourselves.

Galatians 2:20
I have been crucified with Christ. It is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me. And the life I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me.

1 Corinthians 10:24
Let no one seek his own good, but the good of his neighbor.


The simple question is what are we doing for other people that can do nothing in return for us??. That to me is a real world example, do we get excited to help other people?? or is a dread??