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Faith or works or both?

Hi B-A-C, Are you telling me you are sinless?

No, but I am telling you I don't "practice" sin. I try to avoid sin 'most' of the time. But there have been times
I "chose" to sin. There is a big difference between occasionally stumbling, and willful continuation in sin.
 
You said it,"still Judas rejects"...before the foundation, God knew his choice! HE gave Judas the power to cast out demons, but he rejected Jesus...Christ didn't give the Holy Spirit until the "Day of Pentecost ", Judas was dead...
Please show scripture where Judas received the Holy Spirit and I will change my mind, about this Traitor.
BLESSINGS

Greetings guys, forgive me for joining in at this point.

I too believe that from the start, Jesus knew that Judas would betray him later in his ministry. But I also believe Judas was an accepted brother, one of the twelve for a period. As time went on he began to sin, money was becoming his God, but the real change in him was towards the end when 'satan entered Judas'.
 
No, but I am telling you I don't "practice" sin. I try to avoid sin 'most' of the time. But there have been times
I "chose" to sin. There is a big difference between occasionally stumbling, and willful continuation in sin.
B-A-C,
You can't have it both ways, either you don't practice sin or you 'try' to avoid it 'most of the time', or at times you 'chose' to sin. It seems to me that your the same as the rest of us. bless you.
 
Greetings guys, forgive me for joining in at this point.

I to believe that from the start, Jesus knew that Judas would betray him later in his ministry. But I also believe Judas was an accepted brother, one of the twelve for a period. As time went on he began to sin, money was becoming his God, but the real change in him was towards the end when 'satan entered Judas'.
Hi Paul, I hope it's alright for me to throw my two penneth in. Satan didn't enter Judas until Jesus passed Judas the bread.It's almost as if Satan was waiting for permission. Just a thought.
 
No, but I am telling you I don't "practice" sin. I try to avoid sin 'most' of the time. But there have been times
I "chose" to sin. There is a big difference between occasionally stumbling, and willful continuation in sin.


In other words brother, providing you don't choose to sin, you practice righteousness.

You may sin occasionally but that doesn't make you a sinner, you seek forgiveness and continue to practice righteousness.

A sinner is a person who willfully sins, saved or lost soul.

Bless you brother.
 
Hi Paul, I hope it's alright for me to throw my two penneth in. Satan didn't enter Judas until Jesus passed Judas the bread.It's almost as if Satan was waiting for permission. Just a thought.


I totally agree Trevor, hence towards the end 'satan entered Judas'

Jesus was in control through out, the betrayer was the one Jesus passed the bread to, I like the way you put it regarding satan waiting for permission.

Bless you
 
Sorry to interrupt at this point of the conversation. I'll just give my opinion on the topic of the faith and the works. I definitely think that in our christian life they go together. When we read in James chapter 2, it speaks for both of them together, encouraging the believers to do good works. But that's the point. The letter that James wrote was directed to believers.
" What does it profit, my BRETHREN, if someone says he has faith, but does not have works? Can faith save him? " James 2:14
It is because those people were already saved, that's why works were required from them. Same as the parable of the sheep and the goats in Matthew 25:31-46
It speaks about the judgement, but not any judgement, if you notice. Something was required from those people. And this was to help, to reach out other people, giving them the good news. " For I was hungry and you gave Me food; I was thirsty and you gave me drink; I was a stranger and you took me in....." Matthew 25:35
Even if the parable speaks about clothing, feeding, etc, we can understand this as giving someone living water from His Spirit, feeding him with His word, that is bread, clothing him by showing him comfort and love. We can look at it spiritually as this is a parable and God is not mainly interested about the material way of helping someone. We can help someone also literally clothing and feeding him, but with the purpose that we can reach out to him, to give him the good news of the gospel.

This kind of help and attitude is required not from unbelievers, but from believers as they can see the purpose and can give these good news to the others. We know that for someone not being saved is needed faith alone and there are works prepared before hand for those being saved by grace. Ephesians 2:10
But don't you think that we as Christians can become a bit lazy toward those works sometimes?
There are parts of the scripture that speak about that, about being lazy, (somewhere in Proverbs I think) and definitely I don't think that if those works have been prepared before hand, then we just have to cross our hands and wait for them to come or that we must feel compelled somehow to do those things.
Do you think that if we don't answer God's call for something, He can send someone else to do it. I think that yes, He can do it, because He will definitely accomplish His work in one or another way.
But if He wants to use you, it is definitely by His Grace. So you need to profit the chance.
God used Paul to write so much on the faith because of the Jews from that time that set their trust in the law and obviously because if man in general that wants to achieve the salvation by something he does, which is impossible, because then he will boast of himself and that doesn't please God. But the works accomplished by the faith are performed with a humble heart and God always teaches us a lesson if we start getting proud by them.

I believe as well that one day God is going to demand from us what have we done with our faith, with the tallent He gave us and we are going to be judged a cording to that . I'm speaking for the believers.
Because if we see Matthew 25:14-29, where it speaks about the parable of the talents and God demanding his servants about those talents. And to whom are going to be given talents if not to a believer. And straight after that parable it comes the one speaking about the Son of man judging the nations, the parable of the sheep and the goats which also speaks about the works of the believers.
This is what He requires from us and what can help it to be accomplished is having faith and a prayer.
 
You say we have free will Bill, but if that is the case and we have the freedom to obey the law, then a strong man would, with that free will, be able to obey the law and demand access into heaven as the right through obedience. Who would need Jesus? Paul put paid to that, and explained, that because of the fall, we inherited Adam's sin and that sin is a law (the law of sin and death) and that can only be overcome by the law of Grace. We are given the Grace to overcome and the glory goes to God, not us. We don't choose to sin, it's in our nature, that's why we need salvation. Before we are saved our sin leads to death. After our redemption our sin humbles us and is used to hone us into the people God would have us be. As Paul lamented "what a wretched man I am, who will rescue me from this body of death." This is Saul the pharisse of pharissees, proudly persecuting the believers. But in the hands of the Spirit, he is shown his true state. As for Judas, yes he was a thief but would he have betrayed Jesus if Satan himself hadn't been allowed to enter him? bless you.
You can say sin is in our nature , but that thinking only comes from the devil .

God doesnt create junk .

We are created in the likeness of God . We are perfect in Gods creation.

Does God create only to be thrown away. Is not God perfect .

It isnt what goes into a person that makes them senful, but what comes out of the heart. If the heart becomes corrupt , then the person becomes corrupt too
 
Greetings guys, forgive me for joining in at this point.

I too believe that from the start, Jesus knew that Judas would betray him later in his ministry. But I also believe Judas was an accepted brother, one of the twelve for a period. As time went on he began to sin, money was becoming his God, but the real change in him was towards the end when 'satan entered Judas'.
God knows everything , certainly . And it is part of the mystery of God.

But Judas has free will . His fate wasnt pre determined . To even suggest God created Judas for hell it just retarded .

God does not create people just for heaven and just for hell . If you wish to continue to walk this path, you will All only condemn yourselves.
 
Sorry to interrupt at this point of the conversation. I'll just give my opinion on the topic of the faith and the works. I definitely think that in our christian life they go together. When we read in James chapter 2, it speaks for both of them together, encouraging the believers to do good works. But that's the point. The letter that James wrote was directed to believers.
" What does it profit, my BRETHREN, if someone says he has faith, but does not have works? Can faith save him? " James 2:14
It is because those people were already saved, that's why works were required from them. Same as the parable of the sheep and the goats in Matthew 25:31-46
It speaks about the judgement, but not any judgement, if you notice. Something was required from those people. And this was to help, to reach out other people, giving them the good news. " For I was hungry and you gave Me food; I was thirsty and you gave me drink; I was a stranger and you took me in....." Matthew 25:35
Even if the parable speaks about clothing, feeding, etc, we can understand this as giving someone living water from His Spirit, feeding him with His word, that is bread, clothing him by showing him comfort and love. We can look at it spiritually as this is a parable and God is not mainly interested about the material way of helping someone. We can help someone also literally clothing and feeding him, but with the purpose that we can reach out to him, to give him the good news of the gospel.

This kind of help and attitude is required not from unbelievers, but from believers as they can see the purpose and can give these good news to the others. We know that for someone not being saved is needed faith alone and there are works prepared before hand for those being saved by grace. Ephesians 2:10
But don't you think that we as Christians can become a bit lazy toward those works sometimes?
There are parts of the scripture that speak about that, about being lazy, (somewhere in Proverbs I think) and definitely I don't think that if those works have been prepared before hand, then we just have to cross our hands and wait for them to come or that we must feel compelled somehow to do those things.
Do you think that if we don't answer God's call for something, He can send someone else to do it. I think that yes, He can do it, because He will definitely accomplish His work in one or another way.
But if He wants to use you, it is definitely by His Grace. So you need to profit the chance.
God used Paul to write so much on the faith because of the Jews from that time that set their trust in the law and obviously because if man in general that wants to achieve the salvation by something he does, which is impossible, because then he will boast of himself and that doesn't please God. But the works accomplished by the faith are performed with a humble heart and God always teaches us a lesson if we start getting proud by them.

I believe as well that one day God is going to demand from us what have we done with our faith, with the tallent He gave us and we are going to be judged a cording to that . I'm speaking for the believers.
Because if we see Matthew 25:14-29, where it speaks about the parable of the talents and God demanding his servants about those talents. And to whom are going to be given talents if not to a believer. And straight after that parable it comes the one speaking about the Son of man judging the nations, the parable of the sheep and the goats which also speaks about the works of the believers.
This is what He requires from us and what can help it to be accomplished is having faith and a prayer.
Im glad you wrote this . You are more eloquent than i. Excellent
 
You can say sin is in our nature , but that thinking only comes from the devil .

God doesnt create junk .

We are created in the likeness of God . We are perfect in Gods creation.

Does God create only to be thrown away. Is not God perfect .

It isnt what goes into a person that makes them senful, but what comes out of the heart. If the heart becomes corrupt , then the person becomes corrupt too
Hi Bill, 1 John1:8-10 If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness. If we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liar and his word has no place in our lives.
 
Hi Bill, 1 John1:8-10 If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness. If we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liar and his word has no place in our lives.
When i was talking about sin as in our nature . I was saying we were not created in sin. That sin is not in our nature, or origin. It is something that 1 ) comes to us through the failure of our fathers ( Adam) and 2 ) sin comes from within us.
 
God knows everything , certainly . And it is part of the mystery of God.

But Judas has free will . His fate wasnt pre determined . To even suggest God created Judas for hell it just retarded .

God does not create people just for heaven and just for hell . If you wish to continue to walk this path, you will All only condemn yourselves.


Greetings Bill

Jesus death and resurrection was prophesied, we both agree, this was planned from the beginning.

For Jesus to die as prophesied there had to be a betrayer, as we know this was Judas, so if Jesus death and resurrection was prophesied, known beforehand, so must be his betrayal/betrayer.

Judas was called to be one of the twelve, Jesus surely knew this man would betray him towards the end of his ministry. Judas had free will, he was called and chose to follow Jesus, he could have said no, he didn't. Jesus knew, I believe, that Judas would be loyal at first, he knew he would be tempted with money, he knew it would be his fall, he knew he would betray him for the price of a slave. I cannot see how he wouldn't know, He was/is God the son, He knew what He was called to do, set captives free, He knew His destiny.

Peter was a loyal servant, a loyal disciple of our Lord, he like all of us had free will, yet Jesus knew beforehand he would betray him 3 times before the **** crowed, He even told him he would do so. He had free will not to betray Jesus, but he did so as Jesus prophesied he would.

Shalom
 
Judas had to be in the Lord to cast out devils . Jesus Himself tells us this


Greetings Bill

When Jesus called Judas, Judas accepted that call, he was a loyal disciple at the beginning, temptation came later, which led to a greed for more money by betraying Jesus, but he failed in his negotiating and only got the price of a slave, 30 pieces of silver. Was Jesus betraying Jesus, yes he was, did he willing betray Jesus, I think not, it was the money Judas wanted, his greed was money, money had become His God. The devil had tempted Judas, and Judas has willingly allowed it. The devil only tempts us he does not make us do anything against our will, but he is cunning and tempts us knowing our weakness's.

So Judas had free will, we all do, but he was tempted and sinned, starting with temptation with the disciples money, then wanting more.

But Judas' fall was prophesies, this says that he didn't have free will.

Interesting situation, this is the core of what we are discussing. So would it be right to say, we have free, but are also responsible for our sins, our sins are our fall, and sin leads to death.

Another question here could be, were the disciples saved before Pentecost? As Jesus' disciples they were given power to cast out demons, we cannot cast out demons without the Holy Spirit.

What are your thoughts?
 
Greetings Bill

Jesus death and resurrection was prophesied, we both agree, this was planned from the beginning.

For Jesus to die as prophesied there had to be a betrayer, as we know this was Judas, so if Jesus death and resurrection was prophesied, known beforehand, so must be his betrayal/betrayer.

Judas was called to be one of the twelve, Jesus surely knew this man would betray him towards the end of his ministry. Judas had free will, he was called and chose to follow Jesus, he could have said no, he didn't. Jesus knew, I believe, that Judas would be loyal at first, he knew he would be tempted with money, he knew it would be his fall, he knew he would betray him for the price of a slave. I cannot see how he wouldn't know, He was/is God the son, He knew what He was called to do, set captives free, He knew His destiny.

Peter was a loyal servant, a loyal disciple of our Lord, he like all of us had free will, yet Jesus knew beforehand he would betray him 3 times before the **** crowed, He even told him he would do so. He had free will not to betray Jesus, but he did so as Jesus prophesied he would.

Shalom
You are absolutely crazy if you believe God creates anyone to fall.

Satan, Judas, and everyone else in scripture .

Even if im given visions , i may see you at points in your life. But none is predetermined . You got there on your own free will.
 
Greetings Bill

When Jesus called Judas, Judas accepted that call, he was a loyal disciple at the beginning, temptation came later, which led to a greed for more money by betraying Jesus, but he failed in his negotiating and only got the price of a slave, 30 pieces of silver. Was Jesus betraying Jesus, yes he was, did he willing betray Jesus, I think not, it was the money Judas wanted, his greed was money, money had become His God. The devil had tempted Judas, and Judas has willingly allowed it. The devil only tempts us he does not make us do anything against our will, but he is cunning and tempts us knowing our weakness's.

So Judas had free will, we all do, but he was tempted and sinned, starting with temptation with the disciples money, then wanting more.

But Judas' fall was prophesies, this says that he didn't have free will.

Interesting situation, this is the core of what we are discussing. So would it be right to say, we have free, but are also responsible for our sins, our sins are our fall, and sin leads to death.

Another question here could be, were the disciples saved before Pentecost? As Jesus' disciples they were given power to cast out demons, we cannot cast out demons without the Holy Spirit.

What are your thoughts?
But it wasnt in Gods plan for Judas to fall from the beginning of the creation of Judas . Though God knows our ultimate choices . It is we who chose to love God or not . To obey God or not .

Like i said . One of the greatest challanges to come will be whether you take the mark of the beast or not .

And this will be for all Christians .

If you take the mark , then you damn yourself . As it is a sin against the Holy Spirit .

On the one hand , will be all you are as human on earth , and on the other will Only be God .
 
Greetings Bill

Jesus death and resurrection was prophesied, we both agree, this was planned from the beginning.

For Jesus to die as prophesied there had to be a betrayer, as we know this was Judas, so if Jesus death and resurrection was prophesied, known beforehand, so must be his betrayal/betrayer.

Judas was called to be one of the twelve, Jesus surely knew this man would betray him towards the end of his ministry. Judas had free will, he was called and chose to follow Jesus, he could have said no, he didn't. Jesus knew, I believe, that Judas would be loyal at first, he knew he would be tempted with money, he knew it would be his fall, he knew he would betray him for the price of a slave. I cannot see how he wouldn't know, He was/is God the son, He knew what He was called to do, set captives free, He knew His destiny.

Peter was a loyal servant, a loyal disciple of our Lord, he like all of us had free will, yet Jesus knew beforehand he would betray him 3 times before the **** crowed, He even told him he would do so. He had free will not to betray Jesus, but he did so as Jesus prophesied he would.

Shalom

Greetings Bill

Jesus death and resurrection was prophesied, we both agree, this was planned from the beginning.

For Jesus to die as prophesied there had to be a betrayer, as we know this was Judas, so if Jesus death and resurrection was prophesied, known beforehand, so must be his betrayal/betrayer.

Judas was called to be one of the twelve, Jesus surely knew this man would betray him towards the end of his ministry. Judas had free will, he was called and chose to follow Jesus, he could have said no, he didn't. Jesus knew, I believe, that Judas would be loyal at first, he knew he would be tempted with money, he knew it would be his fall, he knew he would betray him for the price of a slave. I cannot see how he wouldn't know, He was/is God the son, He knew what He was called to do, set captives free, He knew His destiny.

Peter was a loyal servant, a loyal disciple of our Lord, he like all of us had free will, yet Jesus knew beforehand he would betray him 3 times before the **** crowed, He even told him he would do so. He had free will not to betray Jesus, but he did so as Jesus prophesied he would.

Shalom
I still can't see how People can still talk about free will after reading what Paul said in Romans 7:7-25. Please someone explain to me, after reading that, how we can speak about free will? bless you Paul.
 
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