Genesis and the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil

[WaterRock]

Jesus said John 3:13 .And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

The Holy Ghost.

 

[Thiscrosshurts]

In addition to having no beginning nor end of existence since it always was, is and will always be,
the 'Eternal' can not change nature or form, for to change would be the end of one and the beginning of another.

Yes, and since time is relative to space then there could be no space so there would be no measure.
"Now" that's life in the fast lane,everything all the time.

Jesus said John 3:13 .And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.
Yes,the Holy Spirit
To him was given the spirit without measure

Judge nothing before the time.

 

[Kirby D. P.]

THISCROSSHURTS: Yes. Quite familiar with it. Does it relate?
WaterRock: I take it you mean metaphysical eternities. But God (as we) must have the capacity to change. He created the Creation and declared it "good." Then, by Noah's generation, has second thoughts or, rather, changes his mind and decidesto wipe the slate clean in a flood. AND, following that, he makes the rainbow covenent, constraining Himself from ever doing such a thing again. The only way I can see to reconcile this maleable Godly disposition with a supposed eternal immutability would be to say that God is at work across all time simultaneously. In other words, from his perspective, it the same instant he is wiping out the world with the flood, he is also creating Adam and causing Mary of conceive Jesus. But if that's the case, from his perspective, everyone who will eventually accept Christ already is and has been doing so. Which would be fine except that neuters human free will, which (as I understand it) is the standard by which humanity is to be judged, hence rendering any judgement (salvation/damnation) either moot or gratuitous.
I'm not saying this is absolutely how the story works. But it's how I follow the implications. I'm interested in finding out better ways of reconciling these apparent paradoxes.

 

[DHC]

All very interesting.

Hello Kirby.

You remarked in your previous post #15.

First, I haven't seen anything in the OT to suggest Adam suffered any physical death from eating
the fruit.

The text states that Adam did in fact perish after Adam became aware of right and wrong.

Genesis 5
5 So all the days that Adam lived were nine hundred and thirty years, and he died.

You also made the following comment in relation to Adam's death.

And even the NT evidence is vague. Certainly it never explicitly says "Adam had a spiritual death
the day he ate"

The New Testament is not at all vague about the consequences of Adams disobedience.

Romans 5:12
Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin

Romans 5:14
Nevertheless death reigned from Adam until Moses...

1 Corinthians 15:22
For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive.

Adam did not have a spiritual death because Adam was not a spiritual creature, Adam was flesh and blood, a living soul.

Look forward to your reply Kirby.

 

[Kirby D. P.]

Okay. I think I get it.

Not to get off topic -- though I think it's related -- what is the understanding of why God created man without the capacity to know good from evil in the first place? It seems that love and worship (and fear) of God did not come until Adam and Eve sinned by eating the fruit. Was Man always destined to eat the fruit? If so, then why punish him? And, if not, why create him in a literally uninspired state? Incapable of worshipping God (as Cane and Abel are, following the expulsion.)

 

[Chad]

@Kirby D. P.

Good questions you ask, with an open mind. You've gotten a lot of great responses here full of truth. These members care to help you understand, as do I.

Here's a little rundown summary I like to share with those who have yet to accept Christ as Lord & Savior, and receive His free gift of Salvation, forgiveness.

1. Jesus resurrection was witnessed by many apostles and other followers mentioned in the bible. So was his temporary return after His resurrection.
2. It's 2015. This worldwide massive event of Jesus' birth was 2015 years ago that began the global calendar. That's very significant
3. Miracles after miracles, virtually non-stop in both the OT and NT. But, more miracles past 2000 years too. Even in my local church, other churches. So many, it's impossible for any unbeliever to refute supernatural miracles like massive cancerous tumors suddenly disappearing without surgery. Limbs being miraculously restored. Demon possessed people being exorcised in the name of Jesus, etc.
4. Of all religious beliefs, only Christianity has validity and astounding evidence that the "prophet" or "messenger" was the real deal. Jesus was not a prophet, He was and is the Son of GOD, risen, witnessed by thousands in biblical days and millions in modern times. NO other belief has a GOD that came down to serve us and die for our sins in our place, offering Himself (His Son Jesus) as a free gift of salvation. Not works, but grace. No religion except Christianity has a Living GOD who desires a personal relationship with His followers. No GOD except in the Bible has proven to be true, real, consistent, never failing.
5. Fulfilled prophecies. The bible is FULL of 100's fulfilled OT to NT prophecies and many more continue to be fulfilled in modern times. This is real stuff. I can't get into details with a few sentences, but I'm telling you it's 100% accurate, undeniable, irrefutable and amazing.

I've read the bible for 13 years now, front to back many times. It is as many Christian scholars and professors, pastors, teachers, say "as if written by One Author". That is the Holy Spirit who divinely inspired all the men who tooled the Bible together over a 1,500 year span. It's extremely consistent.

I can honestly go on and on here from different angles like spiritual realm, scientific facts, etc. NASA and other space agencies over the past 50+ years have already discovered billions of stars, planets, galaxies, black holes, asteroids and other wild things in space and only this microscopic tiny blue dot, Earth has life and FULL of life. People, animals, plants, food, oceans, land, etc. Add this with all the biblical facts, discovered artifacts, thousands who witnessed Jesus' miracles, ministry and resurrection, modern times miracles, fulfilled prophecies, 2015 calendar example, etc and etc. It's just impossible to refute the validity of the Bible, Jesus Christ and why He is the only way.

If it were not true, I would not bother believing it myself. I couldn't profit anything if I knew Jesus was not the real deal.

Note: this is not intended to go off topic by me, nor for you to go off topic either. This is just a brief summary intended as food for thought. If you want to ask questions or discuss anything I mentioned, open a new thread and we'll gladly talk about that too.

 

[RJ]

Was Man always destined to eat the fruit?

That is because he was not completely destined to, he was given a choice. God didn't say you will therefore not eat the fruit, he gave them a choice to eat or not eat. Just like he may knock on your door, but you must open it. You are faced with a choice much like Adam...it is up to you to make the right one!

 

[DHC]

Okay. I think I get it.

Not to get off topic -- though I think it's related -- what is the understanding of why God created man without the capacity to know good from evil in the first place? It seems that love and worship (and fear) of God did not come until Adam and Eve sinned by eating the fruit. Was Man always destined to eat the fruit? If so, then why punish him? And, if not, why create him in a literally uninspired state? Incapable of worshipping God (as Cane and Abel are, following the expulsion.)

Hello Kirby.

Okay. I think I get it.

That's good Kirby, what the Bible actually states, as opposed to what men in the past have said the
Bible states, is somewhat different.

Not to get off topic -- though I think it's related -- what is the understanding of why God created
man without the capacity to know good from evil in the first place?

Adam definitely had the capacity to understand the divine instruction, i.e., not to gain the awareness
itself of good and evil. Adam was also definitely aware that there were serious consequences for
disobedience to the divine instruction. Adam knew that he should not eat of that tree, otherwise he
would die (Genesis 3:3).

So we know that Adam was created with an ability to understand that there was a difference between
obedience and disobedience. At some level, Adam knew that he should be obedient to God's instruction.

Created with the capacity to know what evil is?

What Adam was really ignorant of and more to the point Kirby, was the depth that evil would reach.
Adam did not know and rightly so, the appalling evil that mankind would unleash upon the world.
Innumerable wars, destruction on grand scales, genocides, constant conflict in politics, religion
and ideologies. Adam was not aware of the far reaching consequences of disobedience, Adam
would never have been capable of fully knowing what evil is.

I don't know about you Kirby, but there are things I have seen and heard, that I wish I never knew
anything about. Often ignorance of evil itself is pure bliss! I wish that God had never allowed any
freedom to mankind to commit evil.

If I was God and I created two beautiful children from scratch, I certainly would never create them
with a knowledge of evil. So I must agree with God's decision in a non disclosure of evil to Adam.

Another point all together Kirby, is that if God did not allow Adam the freedom to make a choice.
Then Adam was in fact in slavery to God's will, God would be a dictator in this scenario, no freedom.
Adam had to be given the opportunity to make choices, to freely act, to be obedient or disobedient.
Love itself demands that God creates creatures with the freedom and ability to obey and disobey.

 

[Thiscrosshurts]

THISCROSSHURTS: Yes. Quite familiar with it. Does it relate?

I think so but I may be the only one.
It's tough to argue with a repeatable experiment so it's a place where particles and waves can meet.
Excuse me I mean the physical and the metaphysical.
The experiment shows that an observer interferes with the experiment.
When there is no observer the particle is superpositioned in a probability wave.
It's whereabouts are uncertain.
But there is a probability that it might be found in certain locations.

The eyes of them were opened and they knew (observed/measured/judged) that they were naked or lacking.
Thier self observation caused the Lord to say "where are you".
It's not that the Lord would not know but like in a video game that you played each scenario the Lord exists in each scenario
The probability that Adam did not eat the fruit still exists.
We are experiencing the universe where he did.

But God (as we) must have the capacity to change.

The Lord does not need to change because he is all scenarios simultaneously(Schrodingers cat).
He is the observer observing the observer observing the observers.
That's why it says in him we live and move and have our being.
Time and space are not there without an observer.

Jesus said John 3:13 .And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.
The particle does not become a wave but the wave becomes a particle and yet remains a wave.
I think your explanation is spot on.

 

[Thiscrosshurts]

I'm not saying this is absolutely how the story works. But it's how I follow the implications. I'm interested in finding out better ways of reconciling these apparent paradoxes.

Not to get off topic -- though I think it's related -- what is the understanding of why God created man without the capacity to know good from evil in the first place? It seems that love and worship (and fear) of God did not come until Adam and Eve sinned by eating the fruit. Was Man always destined to eat the fruit? If so, then why punish him? And, if not, why create him in a literally uninspired state? Incapable of worshipping God (as Cane and Abel are, following the expulsion.)

Those are the same questions I have.
Romans 11:32 For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.

I mean eternal is everything all the time so it would include every variation sort of falling or collapsing into the particle manifestation of time and space.
In the quantum world if anything can happen it must because it already happened.
If you study time reversal symmetry it states that the effect can precede the cause.
Ecclesiastes 3:15 What is happening now has happened before, and what will happen in the future has happened before, because God makes the same things happen over and over again.

Ecclesiastes 12:7 and the dust returns to the ground it came from, and the spirit returns to God who gave it.
Particles stay particles but waves always are.
I am is now.

 

[Lyndle]

The death that took place initially for Adam was a spiritual death resulting in a separation
from God. In the end, Adam and Eve DID die physically as a result.

The operative word here is 'initially'. Adam lived 900 plus years after his act of
disobedience... then he died. The result of Adam's sin is two-fold... spiritual
death, and physical death.

 

[Travis]

The operative word here is 'initially'. Adam lived 900 plus years after his act of
disobedience... then he died. The result of Adam's sin is two-fold... spiritual
death, and physical death.

Question:

After Adam's heart stopped beating, and they buried his body on 6ft under (presumably), did he cease to exist. Was he no longer conscious of anything at all?

Not directed at anyone in particular.

Blessings,

Travis

 

[amadeus2]

Most people who "lived" prior to the birth of Jesus did not understand much of what was written in what was called scripture nor do most people who have "lived" since the time of the natural life of Jesus.

Jesus did explain a lot of things but still even with a written book in their hand and the natural ability to read it most people really did not understand most of it.

Jesus said, "...Let the dead bury their dead" Matt 8:22. He understand that all men were "dead" as God understood dead. Jesus also understood what "Life" really was as God understood "Life".

"Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me." John 14:6

Jesus understood it, but who else really did?

"Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.
Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:
And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?" John 11:24-26

If we read through the events which brought about this conversation between Jesus and Martha when her brother Lazarus had died naturally, we understand that not only Martha did not understand much of what Jesus was saying but neither did his closest disciples who traveled with him to the tomb of Lazarus.

In the eyes of God, I believe, every man born of natural woman, was born dead. Until Jesus brought Life and people began to receive it, there was no Life. This was so from the time that Adam and Eve died. They died, even if they did not know they were dead, when they ate from the forbidden tree.

If you still do not agree or understand consider these words of Jesus:

"Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.

And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:

For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.
Matt 13:13-15

Our walk with God does not begin with evidence that He exists, but rather with a blind faith, which is really the closed eyes of the above verse opened by faith:

"But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him." Heb 11:6

If you want to see before you are willing to step out in faith, you may well be disappointed.

 

[Lyndle]

Question:

After Adam's heart stopped beating, and they buried his body on 6ft under (presumably), did he cease to exist. Was he no longer conscious of anything at all?

Not directed at anyone in particular.

Blessings,

Travis

The definition of 'spiritual death' involves separation from God.
This separation cuts off the enabling life of God, leaving the
'dead 'to their own human strength, and means. Gen. 3:8 shows
a separation had occurred between God and Adam, when
Adam tried to hide himself in the presence of God after he
sinned.

 

[Kirby D. P.]

RE: People being spiritually dead/cut off from God prior to the age of Christ; and ever since (if they lack faith)…

This seems completely at odds with Genesis’ description of the creation of man. It’s quite specific that He breathed into man’s nostrils the breath of life – a divine animation. There are no qualifiers or caveats like, “…and man was only physically alive, but not yet spiritually alive…” Furthermore, at the time of the expulsion, God very specifically enumerates the curses that are Adam and Eve’s punishment: no re-admittance to the garden, eternal hard work in the fields, eternal pains during childbirth. The implication is that these are sufficient to offset their crime as the wages of their sin. And there is no mention of an additional, eternal need for redemption in a Christ.

Why is the Adamic sin not paid for by every generation who simply works for a living and endures pain during childbirth?

 

[amadeus2]

RE: People being spiritually dead/cut off from God prior to the age of Christ; and ever since (if they lack faith)…

This seems completely at odds with Genesis’ description of the creation of man. It’s quite specific that He breathed into man’s nostrils the breath of life – a divine animation. There are no qualifiers or caveats like, “…and man was only physically alive, but not yet spiritually alive…” Furthermore, at the time of the expulsion, God very specifically enumerates the curses that are Adam and Eve’s punishment: no re-admittance to the garden, eternal hard work in the fields, eternal pains during childbirth. The implication is that these are sufficient to offset their crime as the wages of their sin. And there is no mention of an additional, eternal need for redemption in a Christ.

Why is the Adamic sin not paid for by every generation who simply works for a living and endures pain during childbirth?

You are still expecting what is not forthcoming: something for nothing.

All of it is in Genesis, but the understanding of it is throughout scripture and especially by the Holy Spirit. I or others hear could explain in detail but still until you approach it as God prescribes you still won't get it. Elsewhere the scripture also says, "I have planted, Apollos watered; but God gave the increase. So then neither is he that planteth any thing, neither he that watereth; but God that giveth the increase" I Cor 3:6-7

 

[RJ]

Why is the Adamic sin not paid for by every generation who simply works for a living and endures pain during childbirth?

This alone is not sufficient for salvation. In order to enter God's realm, you must be perfectly Holy, Righteous and Blameless. But, this is not of yourself but from the one who lives in. As a Christian with Christ in you, God imparts his perfection and righteousness to you; this is how you are reconciled to God and by no other means, by Christ alone! I suggest you stop trying to figure out Genesis / Creation of the Old Testament. You live under the New Testament and that is all about getting Christ in you and nothing else matters quite frankly!

 

[Thiscrosshurts]

This seems completely at odds with Genesis’ description of the creation of man. It’s quite specific that He breathed into man’s nostrils the breath of life – a divine animation. There are no qualifiers or caveats like, “…and man was only physically alive, but not yet spiritually alive

I tend to agree with you,there is more to the picture and like amadeus2 mentioned, the understanding is sort of smeared throughout scripture.
Some scripture describes how to veiw scripture.
John 10:8 All who came before me are thieves and robbers, but the sheep did not listen to them.
Jesus was the first one to reveal that God is love.
Moses did not have a full understanding of the nature of God.
He saw things from our point of view,stuck in temporary life.
Jesus hung between two thieves, so it's no wonder that all who came after him are thieves and robbers also.

Furthermore, at the time of the expulsion, God very specifically enumerates the curses that are Adam and Eve’s punishment:

I don't see that God cursed or punished but that these were the natural consequences of Adam being the Judge or observer of the knowledge of good and evil.
Genesis 3:17 Then to Adam He said, "Because you have listened to the voice of your wife, and have eaten from the tree about which I commanded you, saying, 'You shall not eat from it'; Cursed is the ground because of you; In toil you will eat of it All the days of your life.

no re-admittance to the garden, eternal hard work in the fields, eternal pains during childbirth. The implication is that these are sufficient to offset their crime as the wages of their sin. And there is no mention of an additional, eternal need for redemption in a Christ.

Well "eternal" doesn't fit well with the rest of that,the only eternal pain is the concept of pain and the only eternal work is the concept of work.
You can't begin eternal so eternal punishment is just the concept of it otherwise punishment would be the norm and how would one know or understand it seeing that there is no difference to compare to.

The clouded promise of redemption:
Genesis 3:14 And the LORD God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life:
Genesis 3:15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.
We know that the woman has no seed so it opens more questions than it answers.

Why is the Adamic sin not paid for by every generation who simply works for a living and endures pain during childbirth?

Sin means "missing the mark" and it is an archery term.
What can you pay for missing a mark,umm,unless they are charging you for arrows you can't pay anything- just hit the mark!

 

[Thiscrosshurts]

You live under the New Testament and that is all about getting Christ in you and nothing else matters quite frankly!

Technically all unbelievers are under the Covenant of Noah.
John 6:44 "No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them, and I will raise them up at the last day.
Lets not limit the possible potential paths that can be drawn from.
We are not selling a product that we need to close on.

 

[RJ]

Technically all unbelievers are under the Covenant of Noah.

• Not even technically, this is not true.
• A covenant is like a contract, the new replaces and supersedes the old!
• Hebrews 8:13 By calling this covenant "new," he has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and outdated will soon disappear.
• The New Covenant supersedes all other Covenants that God made with man. It completely replaces the Adamic, Noahic, Abrahamic, Palestinian,Mosacic and Davidic Covenants.
• We are technically only under the New Covenant
•