Okay. I think I get it.
Not to get off topic -- though I think it's related -- what is the understanding of why God created man without the capacity to know good from evil in the first place? It seems that love and worship (and fear) of God did not come until Adam and Eve sinned by eating the fruit. Was Man always destined to eat the fruit? If so, then why punish him? And, if not, why create him in a literally uninspired state? Incapable of worshipping God (as Cane and Abel are, following the expulsion.)
Hello Kirby.
This is the second post in answer to your previous post #35.
You said in your previous post.
This conversation is becoming more interesting now, you concentrated on the specific curses but alas
you neglected the blessings. This approach of yours has been a persistent theological failing for a very
long time. Adam received an existence, a blessing, mankind is the apple of God's eye, a blessing.
Adam was created and placed in a special place called the Garden of Eden, another blessing.
Adam was lonely so God created someone to keep him company, the blessings continue. Adam
disobeyed and was found to be naked so God stitched together clothing for Adam. On and on it goes
Kirby, God is lovingly picking up the pieces after Adam and blessing Adam, While in the background
God is forcefully dealing with his transgession in the greatest act of love ever to be witnessed in all
creation and beyond.
The curses mentioned include death, but the curses are always more than full compensated by
God's tremendous and unfailing love for mankind. The revelation of the Christ to mankind is
God's love in its absolute abundance.
Due to the fact that Adam is only a physical creation, Adam could never gain a spiritual life. Flesh
and blood will never be eternal or spiritual, the flesh and blood creation was never designed to be
spiritual or eternal. The curses that are inflicted upon mankind are punishment indeed, but these curses
have a much deeper intent.
Romans 5:19
For as through the one man’s (Adam) disobedience the many were made sinners, even so through the
obedience of the One the many will be made righteous.
Romans 11:32
For God has shut up all in disobedience so that He may show mercy to all.
Blessings and curses, yes Kirby, but underneath an eternal purpose in the chaos. The flesh and blood
creation could never conquer death, only in Christ is the victory.
Ummm, ... jus' some thoughts pertaining to this Thread:
The verse reading, "For God knows that when you eat from it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil", is the very first lie which was pronounced on the earth. After all, it was not God who spoke these words, ... no, not surprisingly, the lie was uttered by the great-liar-in-chief himself ... Satan.
To triumph over this perfidious lie, it's imperative that we recognize and boldly confess that God is ONLY and perfectly good.
As Christians, we want to worship God in spirit and in truth. To do this, we want to really know Him - His nature and personality - in order that we can have a real fellowship, a true relationship with Him. There are so many ideas about God, even among Christians, and, indeed, so many "gods" in the world, that it is easy to be misled. It is said that true worship and praise spring from understanding and, as Christians, that should be our deep desire.
In the Garden of Eden, God had fellowship with Adam and Eve; He talked to them - and taught them - beneath the Tree of Life. While eating the fruit of that tree (a 'type' of the Teacher of Righteousness to come) they began to grow spiritually. It was intended that, as they grew, they would acquire a knowledge of the Kingdom of Heaven which would enable them to take up their positions in that realm.
Irrefutably, the Devil and his angels are the source of all evil thoughts and inspiration and work through lies to put God's plans and intentions under suspicion. By means of a serpent, part of the visible creation but made to act against God's law in actually speaking, the Devil was able to suggest to Eve and, through her, to Adam, that there was a quicker and easier way to achieve their destined position in the Heavenly Places. He pointed to the tree of the knowledge of good and evil and said: "You will not die, for God knows that when you eat of it your eyes will be opened and you will be like God, knowing good and evil",(Genesis 3:4,5).
Satan thus inferred that God's nature was both good and evil: that lies and sin could come from God in the same way as truth and righteousness. In 1 Peter 2:22 and 2 Corinthians 5:21, the testimony is given of Jesus, who is the exact likeness of His Father's being, that no deceit was found in His mouth and that He has not known nor committed any sin.
Jesus Himself said that only the Devil is a liar and is the father of the lies told by man. John 8:44 indicates that it is Satan's nature to lie. God only knows evil from the behavior and actions of the spiritual rebels in the Heavenly Places and from the works of people who are used and manipulated by these same spirits.
God can never be lawless. All the laws of creation had their beginning in His thoughts and He does not change: He is the same yesterday, today and forever.
In the Genesis passage referred to, we see how Satan's next proposition was even more subtle. He suggested that, after eating the forbidden fruit, man would become like God. This also implies the reverse would be true as well - God would be like man has become after eating the forbidden fruit, when man not only knows good and evil but he also does good and evil. If the proposition of Satan is applied here, then it would be suggested that God is like man in this respect also. This particular subtlety is a lie which has damaged many people's ideas of God.
Greek mythology shows that in that ancient and advanced civilization the idea had been absorbed that the gods behaved like men and women. For instance, Juno, Jupiter's wife and sister, was portrayed as being full of lust for power, pride and jealousy. Her marriage to Jupiter, the chief of the gods, was unhappy due to his unfaithfulness and his adultery with other goddesses and even with earthly mortals. Juno's own envious character was a constant source of marital disharmony. In Romans 1:21-23 Paul wrote that Gentiles did not use their common sense: 'their foolish hearts were darkened they exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like mortal man'. They have become foolish for they say: 'Our gods are like we are'.' They have exchanged the truth of God for the lie of Satan that came from the mouth of a serpent. The god of this age has blinded their minds.
The devil is still trying to make man believe that God can do evil and can bring misery. James, however, says:"'Don't be deceived, my dear brothers. Every good and perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of the heavenly lights, who does not change like shifting shadows", (James 1:16,17). We can only give what belongs to us. We can only give of ourselves that which we are. It is impossible for God to give something which is wrong because it is not part of Him. It follows that neither can anything that is not within Him, or part of Him, come from Him. How can a rational, sensible man ever think of saying that the Creator brings sin, bondage or illness. Wars, calamities, disasters and anxieties do not come from God. Evil can no more come from God than darkness can come from the sun.
Good health is from God and illness is from the Devil. God is all good and the devil is all evil.
If we look again at Genesis 3:4 and 5, we see that the Evil One declared 'You will not die'. Adam and Eve did not die at once in the physical sense but, much worse, they were separated from God in the spiritual world because they had chosen their own way there. They were dead in their sins and transgressions.
Satan suggested that God was a jealous God, not wanting man to come to great power, to gain knowledge. So he sought to discredit God's integrity and trustworthiness. The idea developed that God would take away man's life. So, even today, we read in the newspaper columns that it pleased God to take away a loved member of a family.
It has always been God's intention that the mortal, natural body should be swallowed up in the immortal, spiritual body. 'For the perishable must clothe itself With the imperishable and the mortal with immortality'. This must surely mean that those who are still alive and are left will be changed in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye (1 Corinthians 15:52,53).
No wonder Adam and Eve hid among the trees of the Garden after their act of disobedience. They knew that their relationship with God had been changed and they feared that God would punish them, maybe even kill them. They had come to believe that God could also do evil. 'He brings death and makes alive' (1 Samuel 2:6 The Lord God would not kill someone He had created and loved. Did He not give his own Son, "so that by His death He might destroy him who holds the power of death that is, the Devil - and free those who all their lives were held in slavery by their fear of death", (Hebrews 2:14,15).
As a result of the subtlety of the lie of Satan that God thinks and acts like man does, many Christians do not see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God. Some Christians think that God will bring disaster on the man who sins. The thought continues that He may wait a long time but, sooner or later, He will act and will get even with man, avenging Himself. This makes God a god of vengeance. Such Christians do not realize that our God does indeed avenge Himself but the wrath is not for man, the vengeance falls on His real enemies, the evil spirits, who are also man's adversaries.
God Himself repudiates the lie put forward in the Garden of Eden with the words: "For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, declared the Lord. As the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts" (Isaiah 55:8-9). God is not like us. He is of another dimension, of a higher quality of thought, for "He does not treat us as our sins deserve or repay us according to our iniquities", (Psalm 103:10).
Under the Old Covenant, the veil was not taken away from Israel and so Job's thoughts were veiled, for he said: 'Shall we accept good from God and not trouble' (Job 2: 10 ). Yet, in the same chapter, we are expressly told that Satan afflicted Job with painful sores from the soles of his feet to the top of his head (verse 7).
Eliphaz also pointed to God as the cause of trouble. He expressed it in these words: "Blessed is the man whom God corrects; so do not despise the discipline of the Almighty. For he wounds, but he also binds up; he injures but his hand also heals", (Job 5:17,18). The Lord told Eliphaz he had not rightly described His nature as Job had. For, although Job, too, did not see that God was only good, he at least acknowledged: "You asked, 'Who is this that obscures my counsel without knowledge?'. 'Surely 1 spoke of things 1 did not understand, things too wonderful for me to know. My ears had heard of you but now my eyes have seen you. Therefore I despise myself and repent in dust and ashes"', (Job 42:3-6).
Eventually, Job realized that someone had twisted the idea of God's thoughts about man and that the Evil One had laid a veil on his thinking. God does not do evil as well as good. He is -and does- only good. James added a postscript to Job's story by saying: 'Do you see now that God is the Father of all light? Look at Job. The Devil made him ill but 'you have seen what the Lord finally brought about. The Lord is full of compassion and mercy' (James 5:11).
Satan's lie was: In His own nature, God knows good and evil. Not only has good come from his thoughts but evil too. He who has good thoughts does good and he who cherishes evil thoughts does evil. This lie about God spread in such way that, under the Old Covenant, people thought that all that manifested itself from the unseen world came from God. Thus evil was ascribed to God.
Jesus, however, taught us to pray: "Our Father in heaven, hallowed be your name". Jesus revealed God as Father of lights. From Him only light or life is beaming, making man happy and joyful. We must hallow His name: that is, we must keep it separated from every form of lawlessness, from all evil, from every form of misery and from every disaster. We must never suggest that the good Creator of heaven and earth can be the author of those acts of darkness and disaster. The truth is that God only thinks and does good and that evil is conceived and worked out by the Devil.
