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Getting Into The Kingdom of God

<DIR>Act 21:20 And when they heard it, they glorified the Lord, and said unto him, Thou seest, brother, how many thousands of Jews there are which believe; and they are all zealous of the law: </DIR><DIR>Act 21:21 And they are informed of thee, that thou teachest all the Jews which are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, saying that they ought not to circumcise their children, neither to walk after the customs. </DIR><DIR>Act 21:24 Them take, and purify thyself with them, and be at charges with them, that they may shave their heads: and all may know that those things, whereof they were informed concerning thee, are nothing; but that thou thyself also walkest orderly, and keepest the law.

Act 21:25
As touching the Gentiles which believe, we have written and concluded that they observe no such thing, save only that they keep themselves from things offered to idols, and from blood, and from strangled, and from fornication.

1Co 7: Is any man called being circumcised? let him not become uncircumcised. Is any called in uncircumcision? let him not be circumcised.

1Co 7:19 Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but the keeping of the commandments of God.

1Co 7:20 Let every man abide in the same calling wherein he was called.

liberty to wear that yoke, if they pleased.
</DIR>
 
<DIR>Act 21:20 And when they heard it, they glorified the Lord, and said unto him, Thou seest, brother, how many thousands of Jews there are which believe; and they are all zealous of the law: </DIR><DIR>Act 21:21 And they are informed of thee, that thou teachest all the Jews which are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, saying that they ought not to circumcise their children, neither to walk after the customs. </DIR><DIR>Act 21:24 Them take, and purify thyself with them, and be at charges with them, that they may shave their heads: and all may know that those things, whereof they were informed concerning thee, are nothing; but that thou thyself also walkest orderly, and keepest the law.

Act 21:25
As touching the Gentiles which believe, we have written and concluded that they observe no such thing, save only that they keep themselves from things offered to idols, and from blood, and from strangled, and from fornication.

1Co 7: Is any man called being circumcised? let him not become uncircumcised. Is any called in uncircumcision? let him not be circumcised.

1Co 7:19 Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but the keeping of the commandments of God.

1Co 7:20 Let every man abide in the same calling wherein he was called.

liberty to wear that yoke, if they pleased.
</DIR>

Nice selection of scripture but your statement that they had liberty to wear that yoke, if they pleased is one that I have questioned because of the selection of scripture you have given.

Were/are the Jews really free from the law? While the law was not given to the Gentile believers was it abolished for Jewish ones? Can a Jew become uncircumcised? I am not settled on the issue and I believe it deserves its own thread....I'll go start one. I would love to hear what you have to say on the issue.

your brother,

Gary
 
Wow....Just want to make sure I understand you.....

You believe that keeping God's laws to the best of your ability will decrease your chances of getting into His kingdom. In other words, doing what God tells us to do TO enter His kingdom will not help our cause at all!

So do you also believe that Jesus lied to us when He told us to do the following....

"And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments."

"Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city."

Can't believe you are saying something different than RJ!


.

You are confused about what those commandments because you mix the old and new covenants. Start a new thread about the covenants and I will be happy to try and help you sort it out.
 
Wow....Just want to make sure I understand you.....

You believe that keeping God's laws to the best of your ability will decrease your chances of getting into His kingdom. In other words, doing what God tells us to do TO enter His kingdom will not help our cause at all!

So do you also believe that Jesus lied to us when He told us to do the following....

"And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments."

"Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city."

Can't believe you are saying something different than RJ!


.

......LOL....Your are really mixed up!

Jiggyfly and I answered your question in a different way but with the same result....we agree completely to the answer to your question!
 
......LOL....Your are really mixed up!

Jiggyfly and I answered your question in a different way but with the same result....we agree completely to the answer to your question!

Jiggy said "Yes"! You said "No"! Just how is that the same results?


.
 
Well you know, I am very careful with entering into the old testament in discussion as I fear that without understanding and faith it can hurt the new believer. It takes a lot of faith and understanding to comprehend many things. And some in the new.

For example just this week on my mind has been the words of Jesus about where he said all these things, the coming of the Kingdom, his second coming and all this will be accomplished in this generation. I thought about that, worried about it, and the Holy Spirit says, look Kit you dummy, did not Jesus also say, no one knows the time or the day or the hour? So would my Son know specifically the time, he is just a dummy like you are. This is how God and I talk to each other, and how he gives me answers. So now my mind is settled , as no one knows not even Jesus. Such a simple thing, but I had to be hit over the head with it. The Holy Spirit, this part of God, is my buddy, my companion, and I can gripe, complain, praise, ask questions, and be taught things. This was the purpose of the new way.

Anyways in the old days there were three kinds of laws. Moral, Ceremonial and Civil Law. Even the commandment in the ten commandments to observe the Sabbath was a ceremonial law. The laws of circumcision were ceremonial and so on.

So saying it simply, we are under a new covenant. A new way, sure we still follow the moral laws, and some of the civil laws as they are simple common sense.

So I will meet you in the middle, and just say, yes we are to always follow the Laws and way of God, but we cannot be saved by following the laws. God tried that one and it did not work, the laws convicted us of our sins, but this could not save us or allow us to have a relationship with God. See God wishes to be around us, to speak with us and due to our sin this was not possible. So he came up with a new way, and now our sins are invisible to him. In the ceremonial way so to speak. So now we can walk with him and we are the new Temple. The Holy Spirit is in us. So we are the new temple.

So yes we do follow the laws of God, but by choice and by free will and the Spirit guides us and we know right from wrong instantly. We are not under the ways of the law to be convicted of sin anymore, as it is internal.

Hope this helps as it is as simple as I can say it.

Kit
 
Gods law in the old testament required you to become circumcised Gen 17:10.

Eccl: Did you get circumcised to follow Jesus?

YES!

Zech.14
[16] And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.
[17] And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain.

Now let's read one of the requirements for worshiping the Lord during His reign.

Ezek.44
[9] Thus saith the Lord GOD; No stranger, uncircumcised in heart, nor uncircumcised in flesh, shall enter into my sanctuary, of any stranger that is among the children of Israel.

Now the Lord said, "...all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts,...", and

He also said, "...No stranger, uncircumcised in heart, nor uncircumcised in flesh, shall enter into my sanctuary..."

Now let’s confirm this with something that was also said;

Isa.52
[1] Awake, awake; put on thy strength, O Zion; put on thy beautiful garments, O Jerusalem, the holy city: for henceforth there shall no more come into thee the uncircumcised and the unclean.

Again God’s word tells us, “…there shall no more come into thee the uncircumcised and the unclean.”


Now...if ALL are to go to Jerusalem to worship the Lord, BUT no one that is uncircumcised can enter in to worship Him, what does that mean?

ALL that come to worship the Lord MUST be circumcised!
 
Many times questions are designed to get a specific response. Many of the questions people asked of Jesus were designed to cause him to give a reason that others might accuse him. Satans question to Eve was designed to make her question God. Correct me if I am wrong but your question seems designed to cause people to think they need to keep the Old Testament law. If they answer No then they should be doing so. If they answer yes then they are supposedly saying that keeping Gods laws is bad. The design of your question only allows for a No answer.





Your Question is lacking details by design and cannot be answered simply yes or no.

New Question: If a person does all that they can to keep the statutes, commandments and laws of God (that he specifically has placed that person under) to the best of their ability (which will be perfectly if he has given them laws they can keep), will it decrease their chance of entering God's kingdom?

New Answer: No



Hopefully you will come up with more honest questions.



Gods law in the old testament required you to become circumcised Gen 17:10. Will keeping this law lessen my chances of entering into the Kingdom? Gal 5:2



Where does it say that we cannot keep Gods laws perfectly? I understand that in many places it says that we have not done so but that isn't the question. Please don't use scripture like for all have sinned or there is not a righteous man upon the earth that sinneth not as these do not prove that a man cannot keep Gods law perfectly.

Jesus was a man. Jesus kept Gods law perfectly.



"Do you think" these are dangerous words as they imply that you need to fill in the gaps that God has left. Pr 14:12

Question: Now do you think they did their best to keep God's commandments?
Answer: I don't know. God did not tell me.

Question: Do you think they kept them perfectly?
Answer: Lets consider Abraham. Gen 26:5 Lets consider David. 1 Ki 15:5
It would appear that some did and some did not.



That depends. Are you in the category of the righteous or ungodly and sinners? My salvation isn't dependent upon what another man did or did not do in Hebrews chapter 11.



What motivated you to add a definition for the word sinner here and not one for the righteous?

If the definition of a sinner is one that breaks the laws of God then a righteous man is one that keeps them?

Can't be true as David did not keep Gods laws but yet he received a good report.

In that case righteous men must be sinners! So the answer to Peters question is the ungodly and the sinner will appear along side the righteous because the righteous are just sinners anyway.




As I stated above.



Only if God said that he should not keep them. One should always obey God.



This is true.



Wisdom doesn't make one compliant. He knew better but did not keep Gods laws. You ever wonder why Solomon was not mentioned in Hebrews chapter 11?



Amen



Please do as he says. Think about it.

Eccl:

Does keeping the laws etc of God make one righteous?

If not, then is there anything that can make a man righteous?

If so, then what?

The above questions are designed to obtains specific answers. The answers are No, yes and following Jesus.

What does it mean to follow Jesus?

Now there in lies the rub. One would say Jesus kept the 10 commandments so I must do the same to follow him. The truth is that Jesus followed the law of God that he was under and to correctly follow Jesus I must do the same. I must follow the law of God that I am under. Jesus was circumcised according to the law that the law might be kept. I was not circumcised according to the law that the law might be kept. In doing so, I was following Jesus. Following Jesus doesn't mean that you do the exact actions he did but rather live in his spirit of righteousness.

Eccl: Did you get circumcised to follow Jesus?

So you said all of that to give me a "NO" answer!


.
 
Jiggy said "Yes"! You said "No"! Just how is that the same results?


.

1. This is how Jiggyfly replied to your question:

I would say yes, that as long as a person is trying to enter the Kingdom of God on his/her own ability that it indicates their blindness to the truth of the gospel and the need for Christ's sacrifice and continued effort on there part would only increase that blindness.

2. This is how I replied:

No.
You said to answer your question, not to explain it.

I agree with Jiggtflys answer.
My answer is no, you doing the Law all you want but failing will NOT keep you out of the Kingdom of God providing you know that it is not the law that saves you but God's grace through the full gospel of Jesus Christ....his death burial and resurrection!

Jiggyfly's and my answer is essentially the same thing...saved by Grace...not the law!<!-- / message --><!-- sig -->
 
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YES!

Zech.14
[16] And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.
[17] And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain.

Now let's read one of the requirements for worshiping the Lord during His reign.

Ezek.44
[9] Thus saith the Lord GOD; No stranger, uncircumcised in heart, nor uncircumcised in flesh, shall enter into my sanctuary, of any stranger that is among the children of Israel.

Now the Lord said, "...all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts,...", and

He also said, "...No stranger, uncircumcised in heart, nor uncircumcised in flesh, shall enter into my sanctuary..."

Now let’s confirm this with something that was also said;

Isa.52
[1] Awake, awake; put on thy strength, O Zion; put on thy beautiful garments, O Jerusalem, the holy city: for henceforth there shall no more come into thee the uncircumcised and the unclean.

Again God’s word tells us, “…there shall no more come into thee the uncircumcised and the unclean.”


Now...if ALL are to go to Jerusalem to worship the Lord, BUT no one that is uncircumcised can enter in to worship Him, what does that mean?

ALL that come to worship the Lord MUST be circumcised!

If what you teach is true then Paul is a liar? Why would Paul tell me not to get circumcised if that is what God demands? Gal 5:2

Gary
 
If what you teach is true then Paul is a liar? Why would Paul tell me not to get circumcised if that is what God demands? Gal 5:2

Gary

You just don't get it, even with all your self proclaimed wisdom of God's word you just don't get the truth.

Circumcision and making one's self clean came out of the Abrahamic law. This was a requirement of the Old Covenamt Law. If your righteousness was to come by way of the law you must be circumcised.
The Temple Priest's were telling the Jews...go ahead and follow Christ if you wish but you must be circumcised and participate in Temple Sacrificices.

Paul was no liar and he was not telling the Jews not to get circumcised, he was saying if they did and followed any other rule-keeping system rather than faith in Jesus Christ, then you give up the freedom in a life in Christ!

This is very similar to not being able to serfe two masters:
In this case serve the master of salvation by the law or salvation by faith in Jesus Christ and Grace!
 
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from ; Herasies in the church down through the ages.dctx

Antinomianism

(Greek: anti, against; nomos, law)

A term made familiar by the heresy of Antinomianism preached by Johannes Agricola as a deduction of Luther's teaching on justification by faith alone. If good works, argued Agricola, do not help to salvation so evil ones do not hinder it and therefore justified Christians are not bound to observe the law. The deduction is logical, but Luther repudiated it and preached earnestly against it. Though often acted upon by some extremists in Germany and England, it was never favored by any Protestant sect.
 
You just don't get it, even with all your self proclaimed wisdom of God's word you just don't get the truth.

Is this how you work to edify the church? Please answer this question. Of course I will not call you a coward if you don't.


Circumcision and making one's self clean came out of the Abrahamic law.

Please provide scripture to support this part of your claim as I cannot seem to find it.

This was a requirement of the Old Covenamt Law. If your righteousness was to come by way of the law you must be circumcised.

I know that you believe that their righteousness was by the law but can you provide scripture to support your claim and explain why the bible teaches that righteousness cannot come by the law? Gal 2:21

The Temple Priest's were telling the Jews...go ahead and follow Christ if you wish but you must be circumcised and participate in Temple Sacrificices.

I can't find this in scripture either. Would you mind pointing it out for me?

Paul was no liar and he was not telling the Jews not to get circumcised, he was saying if they did and followed any other rule-keeping system rather than faith in Jesus Christ, then you give up the freedom in a life in Christ!

You say Paul was instructing...Jews...but the Galatians he was instructing were gentiles.

This is very similar to not being able to serfe two masters:
In this case serve the master of salvation by the law or salvation by faith in Jesus Christ and Grace!

Ah, I see...help me understand if I am understanding you correctly. You are telling me that their are two ways to be saved. One by the law. The other by Christ. The individual is told choose one or the other as you can't have both. Is this anywhere near correct in understanding your position?

Cheers
 
Is this how you work to edify the church? Please answer this question. Of course I will not call you a coward if you don't.




Please provide scripture to support this part of your claim as I cannot seem to find it.



I know that you believe that their righteousness was by the law but can you provide scripture to support your claim and explain why the bible teaches that righteousness cannot come by the law? Gal 2:21



I can't find this in scripture either. Would you mind pointing it out for me?



You say Paul was instructing...Jews...but the Galatians he was instructing were gentiles.



Ah, I see...help me understand if I am understanding you correctly. You are telling me that their are two ways to be saved. One by the law. The other by Christ. The individual is told choose one or the other as you can't have both. Is this anywhere near correct in understanding your position?

Cheers

For now I will only answer the following because your dialogue is nearing silly:
I know that you believe that their righteousness was by the law but can you provide scripture to support your claim and explain why the bible teaches that righteousness cannot come by the law? Gal 2:21
This and you are unbelievable and most confusing. That's right: righteous can not come by the law......and I have said nothing else througout all these threads between us!! And , NOW, all of a sudden you agree!!!????

Ah, I see...help me understand if I am understanding you correctly. You are telling me that their are two ways to be saved. One by the law. The other by Christ. The individual is told choose one or the other as you can't have both. Is this anywhere near correct in understanding your position?
Hahahahaha!!!!LOL....LOL.....No!!!! Your are not anywhere near correct and never have been!!!
 
For now I will only answer the following because your dialogue is nearing silly:
I know that you believe that their righteousness was by the law but can you provide scripture to support your claim and explain why the bible teaches that righteousness cannot come by the law? Gal 2:21
This and you are unbelievable and most confusing. That's right: righteous can not come by the law......and I have said nothing else througout all these threads between us!! And , NOW, all of a sudden you agree!!!????

Ah, I see...help me understand if I am understanding you correctly. You are telling me that their are two ways to be saved. One by the law. The other by Christ. The individual is told choose one or the other as you can't have both. Is this anywhere near correct in understanding your position?
Hahahahaha!!!!LOL....LOL.....No!!!! Your are not anywhere near correct and never have been!!!

I am getting these ideas from reading your posts. You seemed to say that the OT people were saved by following the law. Now you say I misunderstood you. Please clarify.

How do OT saints get saved?
 
I am getting these ideas from reading your posts. You seemed to say that the OT people were saved by following the law. Now you say I misunderstood you. Please clarify.

How do OT saints get saved?

I will do my best Gary, but I don't know if it will suffice you:

Jesus Christ is the fulfillment of all the symbols and predictions of the Old Testament (Luke 24:44; Rom. 3:21-22; Heb. 1:1-3). For example, the Jews celebrated the Passover every year to keep them focused on the One who was to come to die for their sins. As the book of Hebrews 10:1-3 says, "The law is only a shadow of the good things that are coming--not the realities themselves. Day after day every priest stands and performs his religious duties; again and again he offers the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins. But when this priest [Christ] had offered for all time one sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God because by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy" (Heb. 10:1, 11-12, 14).
Jesus Christ stands at the apex of history. Just as we look back in history to Christ's sacrifice for our sins on the cross, Old Testament believers looked forward to His sacrifice for them.

Now the overriding question is that if a person kept the feasts, the sacrifices, the sabbath, and anything else required under the law, would that make them holy? When we speak of holy people, is the Bible speaking of a person who dresses holy, or who does holy things like those who worked in the Tabernacle and the Temple? Does working with holy things or observing holy things, make a person holy? Whenever we look at holy people in the Bible, what group are we looking at? The only group of people in the Bible that are considered holy are those who are the redeemed of God. Now did the required animal sacrifices redeem the nation of Israel? The answer to that question is found in the New Testament.
(Heb 9:8-9 KJV) The Holy Ghost this signifying, that the way into the holiest of all was not yet made manifest, while as the first tabernacle was yet standing: {9} Which was a figure for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience; Hebrews 9:8-9

Gary,

I certainly do not have all the answers and have never said so but I do know this, the OT Saints were always looking forward to the Messiah and in the NT, Jesus is the Messiah!
  • By observing the Laws, participating in rituals and sacrifices, that all came together on the "Day of Atonement" the OT Saints sins were "covered over" or appeased God....but had to be repeated year after year: because it is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins. Hebrews 10:4
  • Jesus said the he did not come to do away with the law but to fulfill the law. He is the emdodiment of the law where by he takes away our sin:<SUP>29</SUP> The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said, “Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world John 1:29
  • The Messiah (Jesus) has always been the way. In the OT is was always looking for him and in the NT he was realized:
    Jesus answered, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me John 14:6
In summary, I have tried to answer your questions as best I can:
  1. I am getting these ideas from reading your posts. You seemed to say that the OT people were saved by following the law. Now you say I misunderstood you. Please clarify. I have never said that the OT Saints were saved by observing the law because they were not! We have seen above that sins could and can never be taken away by observing the OT laws. You could say that it is still through his Grace that he saves them. Exactly how, we will never know at this time because God works from the "Other Realm" and how he works from there is still a mystery!
  2. How do OT saints get saved? Now how God actually saves these OT Saints, again, I am not sure but, for sure, it is through Christ alone and not observing any law! I will leave it up to God how he does it but, now, in our time of the New Covenant it is : <SUP>8</SUP> For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— Ephesians 2:8
 
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I will do my best Gary, but I don't know if it will suffice you:

Jesus Christ is the fulfillment of all the symbols and predictions of the Old Testament (Luke 24:44; Rom. 3:21-22; Heb. 1:1-3). For example, the Jews celebrated the Passover every year to keep them focused on the One who was to come to die for their sins. As the book of Hebrews 10:1-3 says, "The law is only a shadow of the good things that are coming--not the realities themselves. Day after day every priest stands and performs his religious duties; again and again he offers the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins. But when this priest [Christ] had offered for all time one sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God because by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy" (Heb. 10:1, 11-12, 14).
Jesus Christ stands at the apex of history. Just as we look back in history to Christ's sacrifice for our sins on the cross, Old Testament believers looked forward to His sacrifice for them.

Now the overriding question is that if a person kept the feasts, the sacrifices, the sabbath, and anything else required under the law, would that make them holy? When we speak of holy people, is the Bible speaking of a person who dresses holy, or who does holy things like those who worked in the Tabernacle and the Temple? Does working with holy things or observing holy things, make a person holy? Whenever we look at holy people in the Bible, what group are we looking at? The only group of people in the Bible that are considered holy are those who are the redeemed of God. Now did the required animal sacrifices redeem the nation of Israel? The answer to that question is found in the New Testament.
(Heb 9:8-9 KJV) The Holy Ghost this signifying, that the way into the holiest of all was not yet made manifest, while as the first tabernacle was yet standing: {9} Which was a figure for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience; Hebrews 9:8-9

Gary,

I certainly do not have all the answers and have never said so but I do know this, the OT Saints were always looking forward to the Messiah and in the NT, Jesus is the Messiah!
  • By observing the Laws, participating in rituals and sacrifices, that all came together on the "Day of Atonement" the OT Saints sins were "covered over" or appeased God....but had to be repeated year after year: because it is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins. Hebrews 10:4
  • Jesus said the he did not come to do away with the law but to fulfill the law. He is the emdodiment of the law where by he takes away our sin:<SUP>29</SUP> The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said, “Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world John 1:29
  • The Messiah (Jesus) has always been the way. In the OT is was always looking for him and in the NT he was realized:
    Jesus answered, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me John 14:6
In summary, I have tried to answer your questions as best I can:
  1. I am getting these ideas from reading your posts. You seemed to say that the OT people were saved by following the law. Now you say I misunderstood you. Please clarify. I have never said that the OT Saints were saved by observing the law because they were not! We have seen above that sins could and can never be taken away by observing the OT laws. You could say that it is still through his Grace that he saves them. Exactly how, we will never know at this time because God works from the "Other Realm" and how he works from there is still a mystery!
  2. How do OT saints get saved? Now how God actually saves these OT Saints, again, I am not sure but, for sure, it is through Christ alone and not observing any law! I will leave it up to God how he does it but, now, in our time of the New Covenant it is : <SUP>8</SUP> For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— Ephesians 2:8

Thank you. This is crystal clear. I agree.
 
I am greatly blessed by all the contributions. God bless u all.

What i also believe is that, God does not abhor morality and he wants us to be moral because immorality hurts our neighbours; but that will certainly not guarantee our final salvation even if we keep it perfectly. But rather, our faith in his only son, Jesus Christ our Lord, is what will get us into his kingdom. That is why he is called the Saviour.

Keep the fire burning for the Lord.
blessings.
 
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