God's foreknowledge or God's election, or God's something else?

[RJ]

Wow

I see it straightforward as foreknowledge:
Romans 8:29
For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters.

 

[Byfaith]

1Jn_3:20.. For if our heart condemn us, God is greater than our heart, and knoweth all things.

Psa 44:21.. would not God discover this? For he knows the secrets of the heart.

Act 1:24.. And they prayed and said, "You, Lord, who know the hearts of all, show which one of these two you have chosen

Psa 147:5.. Great is our Lord, and of great power: his understanding is infinite.

Isa 42:8.. "I am the LORD. That is my name! I will not let any other god share my glory. I will not let statues of gods share my praise.
Isa 42:9.. What I said would happen has taken place. Now I announce new things to you. Before they even begin to happen, I announce them to you."

Isa 46:10.. Before something even happens, I announce how it will end. In fact, from times long ago I announced what was still to come. I say, 'My plan will succeed. I will do anything I want to do.'

Ecc 1:9 What has been is what will be, and what has been done is what will be done, and there is nothing new under the sun.
Ecc 1:10 Is there a thing of which it is said, "See, this is new"? It has been already in the ages before us.

Brother, this is what I am trying to Avoid. Taylor Posted.

I would say that while we can experience God through His Spirit, we can never fully comprehend Him.

Now lets keep it real Brother. Man far smarter than us have been debating God causing Adam to fall to bring Jesus in the World, or God knew ahead of time Adam would fall.

You said........

God did NOT plan Adam to sin, and yes Adam had a free will to choose. There is a "huge" difference between "permit", and "commission" some thing to happen. The Lord allowed Adam to fall of his own free choice, and the Lord

Then you post scriptures that are 100% election, and scriptures God knows the heart of man.

Also, check your translation against the Hebrew, I have nothing against other translations that are not KJV, but You can do better with the translation there. For example.

Isa 46:10.. Before something even happens, I announce how it will end. In fact, from times long ago I announced what was still to come. I say, 'My plan will succeed. I will do anything I want to do.'


God is not some fortune teller predicting random events and changing the outcomes of them. That would be Molinism. Not saying it's wrong, just not very popular. it's still a ISM though. The Hebrew Actually says.

Declaring from the beginning the latter end, And from of old that which hath not been done, Saying, `My counsel doth stand, And all My delight I do.'
(Isa 46:10) YLT

God declares something, that is causing, not fortune telling.

Now, if God foreknew Adam would blow it before putting Adam in the Garden. It's no longer Foreknowledge that Adam would mess things up, but causing. Knowing the outcome of something, yet going through with it is causing. I can't tell the judge I am not guilty of shooting someone because I only predicted that once I pulled the trigger a bullet would come out and hit the person, I never caused the bullet to do what it did, but only had foreknowledge of it. The judge is smart enough not to buy that excuse and we as Spirit filled believers ought to be a bit smarter than that.

Taylor said:

When we try to form theologies we often time end up making fools out of ourselves and painting ourselves into corners and creating false dichotomies that ought not be.

You said:

If we do not believe we can understand God, then we will never even come close to being able to in this life.

You can't plug Man's ISM'S into the scriptural equations and have it all make sense with no contradictions AND without having to change around the ISM'S to fit different scriptures. That is not possible. Let me tell you, Jonah had no choice but to go to Nineveh, He was taken against his will by fish. Zacharias mouth shut against his will because of unbelief.

then we have scriptures (lots of them) like this.
And the LORD said, Because the cry of Sodom and Gomorrah is great, and because their sin is very grievous; I will go down now, and see whether they have done altogether according to the cry of it, which is come unto me; and if not, I will know.
(Gen 18:20-21)

This scripture is neither Foreknowledge or Election. God says he has to go down and look to see if the sin He hears and the cries of it are as bad as what He is hearing. After he goes down to look, God then says I will know.

How is it God does not know until He goes down to look?

When we plug in Mans theologies as Taylor said to understand scriptures, it's a epic failure when it comes to understanding how God operates. So if He knows when a sparrow falls, why does he have to go down and look personally to see what Sodom is up to?

My thread is to get people to look past their ISM'S and religion and Look at the answer to all these things that will fit every scripture, in every single case.

 

[Travis]

Now, if God foreknew Adam would blow it before putting Adam in the Garden. It's no longer Foreknowledge that Adam would mess things up, but causing. Knowing the outcome of something, yet going through with it is causing.

Mm I disagree.

Jesus was slain from the foundation of the world no? What purpose would there be for forordaining a lamb to be slain from the foundation of the world if there was no group of people to one day be slain for?

Thoughts?

I'm not picking a side, just poking holes.

 

[DHC]

I see it straightforward as foreknowledge:
Romans 8:29
For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters.

Hello RJ.
Not sure if I understand your interpretation of this verse?
Care to provide a little more information.
Thanks RJ.

 

[RJ]

Jesus was slain from the foundation of the world no? What purpose would there be for forordaining a lamb to be slain from the foundation of the world if there was no group of people to one day be slain for?

Here it is agan:

Romans 8:29
For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters.

That is the whole point, in God's power he ordained EVERYTHING from the foundation, he predestined it. Don't forget, God is the Alpha and Omega. Not just the beginning and then the end, he is both at the same time, including the middle, he is omnipresent...anywhere and everywhere at the same time. He was there before and during anything that has ever or will ever happen. That is why you can't hide a thing from him, he sees you lying tomorrow or in 5 years, makes no difference. He saw when you accepted him unto salvation and put your name in the Lamb's Book of Life before the foundation!

 

[RJ]

Hello RJ.
Not sure if I understand your interpretation of this verse?
Care to provide a little more information.

Like I just said in another post, God is omnipotent and omnipresent, He is there before you are. He as already seen what you will do tomorrow.....that is fore-knowing! Those he foreknew who would receive his free gift, he also predestined and put them in the Lamb's Book of Life at the foundation. Ask yourself this question, if the Lamb's Book of Life was complete at the foundation; how is that possible, if God did not fore-know as in the above verse?

 

[Byfaith]

Mm I disagree.

Jesus was slain from the foundation of the world no? What purpose would there be for forordaining a lamb to be slain from the foundation of the world if there was no group of people to one day be slain for?

Thoughts?

I'm not picking a side, just poking holes.

That is fine Travis, my hope is to generate answers not based on formula's that have not worked and have made God mysterious. If there is a solution, then it would have to fit every single scripture without having to twisting some up horribly.

Right about that, no need for Jesus to be slain from the foundation of the World if God did not A) Cause Adams Fall B) Knew Adam by choice would fall anyway, which reverts back to God causing.
it does not answer the question of which one it was if any.

And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
(Rev 13:8)
foreknown, indeed, before the foundation of the world, and manifested in the last times because of you,
(1Pe 1:20)

So if I plug in Neither foreknowledge or Election (ISM) can it still reasonably make sense without stretching scripture in a bad way?

There are two cases in Scripture. From the Foundation of the World, and "BEFORE" the foundation of the World.

There are those written in the lamb's book of Life from the foundation of the World. How? The by Word of the Prophets from the foundation of the World.
Luk_11:50 that the blood of all the prophets, that is being poured forth from the foundation of the world, may be required from this generation;

Jesus was "Foreordained" (Greek meaning known before, not a ministry calling) Before the Foundation of the World.

foreknown, indeed, before the foundation of the world, and manifested in the last times because of you,
(1Pe 1:20)

Jesus was know before the foundation of the World. Given Glory before the World was ever made.
Joh_17:5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.
Joh_17:24 Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world.

There are no scripture denoting Jesus had been planed to be crucified, or planed to have to die for us. We don't see that plan until Gen chapter 3 after Adam blew it.

We do have several scripture that the Worlds were made for him and because of Jesus, that all things were suppose to consist in Him and under him. This could have happened without Adam sinning as all things were made for and because of the Son in the first place before the foundation of the World.

So that is what it would look like without using election or Foreknowledge to understand scripture.

Blessings.

 

[Travis]

There are two cases in Scripture. From the Foundation of the World, and "BEFORE" the foundation of the World.

I was surprised that you didn't bring up the fact that Rev 13:8 would probably be better read:

Revelation 13
8 and all who dwell on earth will worship it, everyone whose name has not been written before the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who was slain.​

I'm sure someone else would have eventually though.

1 Peter 1
17 And if you call on him as Father who judges impartially according to each one's deeds, conduct yourselves with fear throughout the time of your exile, 18 knowing that you were ransomed from the futile ways inherited from your forefathers, not with perishable things such as silver or gold, 19 but with the precious blood of Christ, like that of a lamb without blemish or spot. 20 He was foreknown before the foundation of the world but was made manifest in the last times for the sake of you 21 who through him are believers in God, who raised him from the dead and gave him glory, so that your faith and hope are in God.​

Wouldn't it only make sense to say that he was foreknown as the lamb? Jesus has always existed, before time began. But he only came to earth in the flesh 2000 years ago. Does his role as the lamb of God make any sense if he didn't come in the flesh, as a sacrifice for our sins? Why would he need to come in the flesh, as the lamb of God, if there was not certainty about whether the human race would fall or not. An unfallen human race is not in need of a savior. Jesus did not die on the cross for the elect angels did he?

What need is there for the lamb of God for a people who are not dead in trespasses and sins?

 

[RJ]

Revelation 13
8 and all who dwell on earth will worship it, everyone whose name has not been written before the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who was slain.

:thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:

 

[Thiscrosshurts]

There are no scripture denoting Jesus had been planed to be crucified, or planed to have to die for us. We don't see that plan until Gen chapter 3 after Adam blew it.

There are scriptures that give us more clues.
Romans 11:32 For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.
It seems to be about understanding mercy which may require needing it.

John 9:41 Jesus said unto them, If ye were blind, ye should have no sin: but now ye say, We see; therefore your sin remaineth.
Claiming we don't need mercy kind of circumvents that purpose.

Romans 5:19 For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.
I have never found any scripture that tells me I had no say or choice in this whole thing.
Once here we seem to have little choice.
Galatians 3:22 But the Scripture has shut up everyone under sin, so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe.
Proverbs 21:1 The king’s heart is in the hand of the LORD; he directs it like a watercourse wherever he pleases.
Proverbs 16:9 In his heart a man plans his course, but the LORD determines his steps.
Proverbs 20:24 A man’s steps are directed by the LORD. How then can anyone understand his own way?

Hosea 2:15 I will return her vineyards to her and transform the Valley of Trouble into a gateway of hope. She will give herself to me there, as she did long ago when she was young, when I freed her from her captivity in Egypt.

Job 38:19"Where is the way to the dwelling of light? And darkness, where is its place,
Job 38:20 That you may take it to its territory And that you may discern the paths to its home?
Job 38:21"You know, for you were born then, And the number of your days is great!…

Let every man be a liar but let God be true.

 

[Byfaith]

Rev 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

I was surprised that you didn't bring up the fact that Rev 13:8 would probably be better read:

Revelation 13
8 and all who dwell on earth will worship it, everyone whose name has not been written before the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who was slain.

Certain bible Translations where they believed in some form of Calvinism have it written that way, the Original Greek is not that way.

Right, would certainly have to find the right translation that says it that way. The issue Travis is that we have nothing in the Greek stating before, in other passages we have Before the foundation of the World, not From the foundation.

The prophets where here being killed from the foundation of the World. I am pretty sure they were not being killed before the Word was made. The text focus on those who Worship the beast and not found in the lambs book of life from the foundation of the World.

We need a scripture that denotes the book of life was around Before the foundation of the World and that names were actually written there Before...... Not From the start of the World.


Eph_1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

Eph 1:4 is actually written that way in the Greek. He has chosen us In Him before the foundation of the World.
Now could we reasonably compare other scriptures to get a better understanding of this by the meaning "IN HIM"?

Wouldn't it only make sense to say that he was foreknown as the lamb? Jesus has always existed, before time began. But he only came to earth in the flesh 2000 years ago. Does his role as the lamb of God make any sense if he didn't come in the flesh, as a sacrifice for our sins? Why would he need to come in the flesh, as the lamb of God, if there was not certainty about whether the human race would fall or not. An unfallen human race is not in need of a savior. Jesus did not die on the cross for the elect angels did he?

What need is there for the lamb of God for a people who are not dead in trespasses and sins?

Several scriptures make it clear Jesus was known, given Glory, and all things were made for him and because of him.

We need a scripture that calls him a Lamb before he was spoken about in Gen chapter 3. There are none.
Had Adam not sinned, then God still could have introduced His son by which all things consist. We only know the Son as someone that had to fix our screw ups.
Jesus did not have to be planned before the Foundation of the World to die for us

God's Plan for Adam was to bless him and multiply him, not have him mess it all up, die early and bring death to every living thing that God had originally said multiply. I don't believe God would know one thing, but say something else. Also, God can chance anything in less than a second, so He really does not need far reaching plans as he can make it right instantly and not at all limited.

We are just asking Question here Travis because Election or Foreknowledge does not fit every single scripture. I am asking is there something else we have not considered? Something that fits everything?

Thank you Travis for your input, this stumped me for years, but I have part of it. Only part.

blessings.

 

[Byfaith]

Romans 5:19 For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.
I have never found any scripture that tells me I had no say or choice in this whole thing.
Once here we seem to have little choice.

Thank you, almost missed your post there. We are just looking at this Brother because as stated above by Taylor.............. And bible Gotquestions.org....... election or foreknowledge does not fit every scripture.
The two have been battling it out for a long time and it's confused the rest of us.

I already mentioned two Scriptures where man did not have a Choice, God smacked them and forced them. Sounds more like election there.

We have scriptures where man has lots of choices and warned what happens if he makes the Wrong choices.

We have scriptures where God does not know a thing until he checks it out. Not foreknowledge, or election. One has to ask how much God cares to keep track of. It appears if your not his, then your not even on his radar as without Jesus, your without Hope, without God in this World.

Do we have a right to define God, past what scripture actually says?

I believe if we can answer the Adam question, God caused, God foreknew, or God found out after the fact, as we have scriptures that fit all these cases, we can increase our understanding of How God operates.

we have people wanting to lean here on one side, I am asking not to take a side but examine what we have not looked at before.

For example, God tells Israel he is given them the Promised land. Already theirs, they just have to walk to it. In Numbers 14 they blow it big time and it appears for the last time. God said I am breaching my promise to you, No promise land except for those 20 or younger.

Now if God knew they were not getting the promise land he lied to them.
If God caused them not to get the promised land then He lied again because they did not enter in because of their unbelief, not God doing anything Wrong.

I am asking to just look at things. Even Balaam, the Lord said Go!!! but that did not work out so well for Balaam after he went. Is God unjust or is there more there to examine? Will man hear want the eventually want to hear after being told by God no, several times?

Thank you, good stuff.

 

[Travis]

Certain bible Translations where they believed in some form of Calvinism have it written that way, the Original Greek is not that way.

Hey now, let's not go throwing the C word around.

Revelation 13:8 (RSV) | In Context | Whole Chapter
8 and all who dwell on earth will worship it, every one whose name has not been written before the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb that was slain.

Revelation 13:8 (TLB) | In Context | Whole Chapter
8 And all mankind—whose names were not written down before the founding of the world in the slain Lamb’s Book of Life —worshiped the evil Creature.

Revelation 13:5-8 (MSG) | In Context | Whole Chapter
5-8 The Beast had a loud mouth, boastful and blasphemous. It could do anything it wanted for forty-two months. It yelled blasphemies against God, blasphemed his Name, blasphemed his Church, especially those already dwelling with God in Heaven. It was permitted to make war on God’s holy people and conquer them. It held absolute sway over all tribes and peoples, tongues and races. Everyone on earth whose name was not written from the world’s foundation in the slaughtered Lamb’s Book of Life will worship the Beast.

I don't think those are Calvinistic translations, assuming there is such a thing. The verse can be translated either way and do justice to the original Greek.

Just didn't want that one to run on without some clarification.

 

[Thiscrosshurts]

I am asking to just look at things. Even Balaam, the Lord said Go!!! but that did not work out so well for Balaam after he went. Is God unjust or is there more there to examine? Will man hear want the eventually want to hear after being told by God no, several times?

I don't follow any belief system because every time I learn something I end up having to change it.I do have a belief goal and that is to "believe on the one whom God sent".
I have not come to any conclusions nor am I trying to figure it all out.

But if it's all about learning mercy then it possible that it was God's will for Balaam to proceed yet fail.
Eternal means "no beginning and no end,always was and always will be".
John 3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.
I can't figure out how you can begin eternal life unless you came from eternal life.

 

[Travis]

Several scriptures make it clear Jesus was known, given Glory, and all things were made for him and because of him.

We need a scripture that calls him a Lamb before he was spoken about in Gen chapter 3. There are none.
Had Adam not sinned, then God still could have introduced His son by which all things consist. We only know the Son as someone that had to fix our screw ups.
Jesus did not have to be planned before the Foundation of the World to die for us

God's Plan for Adam was to bless him and multiply him, not have him mess it all up, die early and bring death to every living thing that God had originally said multiply. I don't believe God would know one thing, but say something else. Also, God can chance anything in less than a second, so He really does not need far reaching plans as he can make it right instantly and not at all limited.

We are just asking Question here Travis because Election or Foreknowledge does not fit every single scripture. I am asking is there something else we have not considered? Something that fits everything?

Thank you Travis for your input, this stumped me for years, but I have part of it. Only part.

blessings.

It almost seems like you are arguing with yourself in this thread a little bit. Which is interesting to watch, if nothing else. But I'm not really interested in jumping into the roles you have already defined ahead of time and defending them. I was just pointing out some things that contradict what it seems you may be trying to say.

You said:

"Had Adam not sinned, then God still could have introduced His son by which all things consist. We only know the Son as someone that had to fix our screw ups. "​

His Son was already on the scene though. Everything that is, was created through him. He was walking and talking with Adam and his wife Eve in the Garden before they ate of the Tree of the Knowledge of good and evil. "Before Abraham was, I Am." If Adam and Eve had not fallen, there would be no reason for the Son to take on flesh and be like one of us. He was the Son of God way before he came to earth and was born of a virgin. I'm not sure why you are looking for a verse in Genesis chapter 1 or 2 that explicitly calls Jesus the lamb though? Jesus has always been in existence. The foreknowledge of him in 1st Peter is not talking about foreknowledge of his existence... for he was already in existence, and always has been. The foreknowledge is the foreknowledge of him coming in the flesh, as the lamb of God. Therein lies the issue, if he was foreknown as being the lamb, that assumes that Adam's fall was foreknown as well.

John 1
29 The next day he saw Jesus coming toward him, and said, "Behold, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world! 30 This is he of whom I said, 'After me comes a man who ranks before me, because he was before me.'​

Side note: John says that Jesus was before him. Yet John was born 6 months before Jesus? Correct?

Sometimes people like to play a game where they say, "I'm going to say I am right and stick to that position until you try really hard and somehow convince me I am wrong. And if you can't convince me I am wrong, then I must be right." Jesus never seems to reinforce that kind of behavior. Just sayin,

Blessings,

Travis

 

[TaylorDonBarret]

I can't figure out how you can begin eternal life unless you came from eternal life.

i think its obvious that when believers are promised eternal life, the intended meaning is 'never-ending'. it would be insanely foolish to think otherwise (as if we existed forever before we were born)

 

[Thiscrosshurts]

we have people wanting to lean here on one side, I am asking not to take a side but examine what we have not looked at before.

I'm in!

Job 28:3 Man puts an end to darkness and searches out to the farthest limit the ore in gloom and deep darkness.
Job 28:4He opens shafts in a valley away from where anyone lives;they are forgotten by travelers;
they hang in the air, far away from mankind; they swing to and fro.

Let's be miners for the heart of God

 

[Thiscrosshurts]

i think its obvious that when believers are promised eternal life, the intended meaning is 'never-ending'. it would be insanely foolish to think otherwise (as if we existed forever before we were born)

I would love to hear a logical interpretation of the context of Job 38.

Job 38:19"Where is the way to the dwelling of light? And darkness, where is its place,
Job 38:20 That you may take it to its territory And that you may discern the paths to its home?
Job 38:21"You know, for you were born then, And the number of your days is great!…

 

[TaylorDonBarret]

The Lord is using sarcasm to mock Job.

 

[Thiscrosshurts]

The Lord is using sarcasm to mock Job.

I thought that at one time,but the overpowering revelation that God is love dispelled that notion.
Love does not mock,love does not demand it's own way.
Love will have it's own way,in this case it's about learning mercy.

James 1:5 Now if any of you lacks wisdom, he should ask God, who gives to all generously and without criticizing, and it will be given to him.
John 14:4 You know the way to the place where I am going."