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When you break the law in one point the law is broken. Did David keep the law?
If you can keep the law, why do you need the blood?
Quantrill
Grace vs the Law, debate #23,578
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When you break the law in one point the law is broken. Did David keep the law?
If you can keep the law, why do you need the blood?
Quantrill
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Well, God didn't care much for Paul's choice...did He? But, that didn't stop God....did it?
Yes, God is even in charge of 'your choice'. If your faith is a gift from God, which it is, then how is God not choosing for you?
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regibassman57
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@Quantrill,
Once again I never said the law was evil; that's your interpretation of what you think I'm saying.
I SAID THIS: #49
If God told a man to do something they could not do it would be a type of evil trial or temptation. God does not tempted any man with evil. This is what 1Corinthians is teaching. God will not allow a man to be tried above their ability to do a thing.
I SAID THIS: #53
I never said the law was evil. God will not try a believer with evil; therefore, God will not command a person to do what He knows a man cannot do and then punish them for not doing what they could not do. Scripture doesn't teach Israel could not keep the law. David kept the law, Asa kept the law, etc. In the day of the Judges Israel kept the law. So the issue is not that Israel could not keep the law, but it's they would not keep the law in the times they made that choice.
Israel could obey God's word and the scripture you've shown does not say Israel could not keep the law. When scripture says Israel served God it means they obeyed Him. This teaches Israel could obey God if they chose to.
Joshua 24:31
And Israel served the Lord all the days of Joshua, and all the days of the elders that overlived Joshua, and which had known all the works of the Lord, that he had done for Israel.
Judges 2:7
And the people served the Lord all the days of Joshua, and all the days of the elders that outlived Joshua, who had seen all the great works of the Lord, that he did for Israel.
And i'm not saying God 's work is inadequate once again. Adam and Eve disobeyed God when they were proven based on their own will; they are the work of God created with a choice. This actually takes me to another thought. I believe God's character is in faith as well as all knowledge brought forth in the world.
Once again I never said the law was evil; that's your interpretation of what you think I'm saying.
I SAID THIS: #49
If God told a man to do something they could not do it would be a type of evil trial or temptation. God does not tempted any man with evil. This is what 1Corinthians is teaching. God will not allow a man to be tried above their ability to do a thing.
I SAID THIS: #53
I never said the law was evil. God will not try a believer with evil; therefore, God will not command a person to do what He knows a man cannot do and then punish them for not doing what they could not do. Scripture doesn't teach Israel could not keep the law. David kept the law, Asa kept the law, etc. In the day of the Judges Israel kept the law. So the issue is not that Israel could not keep the law, but it's they would not keep the law in the times they made that choice.
Israel could obey God's word and the scripture you've shown does not say Israel could not keep the law. When scripture says Israel served God it means they obeyed Him. This teaches Israel could obey God if they chose to.
Joshua 24:31
And Israel served the Lord all the days of Joshua, and all the days of the elders that overlived Joshua, and which had known all the works of the Lord, that he had done for Israel.
Judges 2:7
And the people served the Lord all the days of Joshua, and all the days of the elders that outlived Joshua, who had seen all the great works of the Lord, that he did for Israel.
And i'm not saying God 's work is inadequate once again. Adam and Eve disobeyed God when they were proven based on their own will; they are the work of God created with a choice. This actually takes me to another thought. I believe God's character is in faith as well as all knowledge brought forth in the world.
regibassman57
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@Quantrill,
God leads me in Righteousness. Scripture doesn't teach faith is a gift to accept Jesus as Lord. There is faith the grain of a mustard seed, and there is the measure of faith. Faith the grain of a mustard seed is used to accept Jesus as Lord. The measure of faith is given to a believer in the day of their conversion when they receive the Holy Ghost. The gift of faith is in the Holy Ghost. The disciple had faith the grain of a mustard seed, but they didn't have the measure of faith.
God leads me in Righteousness. Scripture doesn't teach faith is a gift to accept Jesus as Lord. There is faith the grain of a mustard seed, and there is the measure of faith. Faith the grain of a mustard seed is used to accept Jesus as Lord. The measure of faith is given to a believer in the day of their conversion when they receive the Holy Ghost. The gift of faith is in the Holy Ghost. The disciple had faith the grain of a mustard seed, but they didn't have the measure of faith.
regibassman57
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@Quantrill,
Did scripture say David kept the law in the scriptures I posted?
When Israel served God, they kept the law and God did not punish them. Keeping the law is offering up sacrifices for the sins that we're committed and repenting from the sins they committed. The blood sacrifices were a part of the law; called the Sacrificial Laws. If Israel sinned all, they had to do was offer a sacrifice and God would cast their sins as far as the east is from the west not to remember their sin. When Israel made a choice not to kept the law and started building alters and worshipping other God's after a while God got fed-up and sent them into bondage. It wasn't that Israel could not keep the law to God's satisfaction (because they did), but Israel started lusting after other gods which other nations were serving and wanted what they had. Scriptures showed that Israel kept the law when they wanted to. After Israel was punished they normally kept the law, but when they got comfortable, they started slaking and constantly sinning without regard to God's law. Their sacrifices also became corrupt.
My point was Israel could keep the law as scripture teaches.
God did not punish Israel by sending them into bondage because they made mistakes, the sacrifice was a part of the law for Israel to atone for their mistakes. If Israel kept the sacrifices after they sinned, they kept the law.
Did scripture say David kept the law in the scriptures I posted?
When Israel served God, they kept the law and God did not punish them. Keeping the law is offering up sacrifices for the sins that we're committed and repenting from the sins they committed. The blood sacrifices were a part of the law; called the Sacrificial Laws. If Israel sinned all, they had to do was offer a sacrifice and God would cast their sins as far as the east is from the west not to remember their sin. When Israel made a choice not to kept the law and started building alters and worshipping other God's after a while God got fed-up and sent them into bondage. It wasn't that Israel could not keep the law to God's satisfaction (because they did), but Israel started lusting after other gods which other nations were serving and wanted what they had. Scriptures showed that Israel kept the law when they wanted to. After Israel was punished they normally kept the law, but when they got comfortable, they started slaking and constantly sinning without regard to God's law. Their sacrifices also became corrupt.
My point was Israel could keep the law as scripture teaches.
God did not punish Israel by sending them into bondage because they made mistakes, the sacrifice was a part of the law for Israel to atone for their mistakes. If Israel kept the sacrifices after they sinned, they kept the law.
regibassman57
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@Quantrill,
Do you believe these scriptures are saying Israel could keep the law?
Deu 30:11 For this commandment which I command thee this day, it is not hidden from thee, neither is it far off.
Deu 30:12 It is not in heaven, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go up for us to heaven, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it?
Deu 30:13 Neither is it beyond the sea, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go over the sea for us, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it?
Deu 30:14 But the word is very nigh unto thee, in thy mouth, and in thy heart, that "you may do it."
Do you believe these scriptures are saying Israel could keep the law?
Deu 30:11 For this commandment which I command thee this day, it is not hidden from thee, neither is it far off.
Deu 30:12 It is not in heaven, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go up for us to heaven, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it?
Deu 30:13 Neither is it beyond the sea, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go over the sea for us, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it?
Deu 30:14 But the word is very nigh unto thee, in thy mouth, and in thy heart, that "you may do it."
Quantrill
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God did give man the law that He knew they could not keep. Thus you are saying that is evil. If it were possible to keep the law then there is no need for the blood.
You said God put the tree in the garden to prove His work. Well, if God gave the command for his work to obey, His work turns out to be inadequate.
Quantrill
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(Eph. 2:8) says differently.
What Scripture do you base what you said on?
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Which means God gave the law knowing Israel could not keep the law, which is the need for the blood sacrifices.
If you want to say God gave the law knowing Israel could not keep it and so provided the blood sacrifices as part of the law, for their sin, then fine. I agree. But that is what I have been saying. God knew they could not keep his law, so behold the blood.
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Before, we were talking about God giving the law knowing man could not keep the law and so provided a blood sacrifice. You disagreed that God would give man a law that man could not keep. But now you have changed and include the keeping of the law to include the blood sacrifices. Which means God gave the law knowing man could not keep the law.
Therfore, God does expect Israel to keep the law, which includes the blood sacrifices, because He knew they would break the law. Behold the blood.
The law alone given by God will be broken. Example: Adam and Eve. All they had was the commandment: "thou shalt not". Thus the blood sacrifice had to be provided later and made part of their new walk with God.
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regibassman57
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@Quantrill,
The scriptures below are saying to Israel they "COULD" keep the law. Moses is relating God's understanding to Israel that the law given to them, they don't need anyone to come down from Heaven or from across the sea to keep the law for them. God is telling Israel the the law is in them to do
Deuteronomy 30:11
For this commandment which I command thee this day, it is not hidden from thee, neither is it far off.
Deuteronomy 30:12
It is not in heaven, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go up for us to heaven, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it?
Deuteronomy 30:13
Neither is it beyond the sea, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go over the sea for us, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it?
Deuteronomy 30:14
But the word is very nigh unto thee, in thy mouth, and in thy heart, that thou mayest do it.
Are you saying God punished Israel because they could not keep the law?
Are you saying God is commanding Israel to do something He knew they could not accomplish?
Deuteronomy 30:15
See, I have set before thee this day life and good, and death and evil;
Deuteronomy 30:17
But if thine heart turn away, so that thou wilt not hear, but shalt be drawn away, and worship other gods, and serve them;
Deuteronomy 30:18
I denounce unto you this day, that ye shall surely perish, and that ye shall not prolong your days upon the land, whither thou passest over Jordan to go to possess it.
Deuteronomy 30:19
I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing:therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:
The scriptures below are saying to Israel they "COULD" keep the law. Moses is relating God's understanding to Israel that the law given to them, they don't need anyone to come down from Heaven or from across the sea to keep the law for them. God is telling Israel the the law is in them to do
Deuteronomy 30:11
For this commandment which I command thee this day, it is not hidden from thee, neither is it far off.
Deuteronomy 30:12
It is not in heaven, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go up for us to heaven, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it?
Deuteronomy 30:13
Neither is it beyond the sea, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go over the sea for us, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it?
Deuteronomy 30:14
But the word is very nigh unto thee, in thy mouth, and in thy heart, that thou mayest do it.
Are you saying God punished Israel because they could not keep the law?
Are you saying God is commanding Israel to do something He knew they could not accomplish?
Deuteronomy 30:15
See, I have set before thee this day life and good, and death and evil;
Deuteronomy 30:17
But if thine heart turn away, so that thou wilt not hear, but shalt be drawn away, and worship other gods, and serve them;
Deuteronomy 30:18
I denounce unto you this day, that ye shall surely perish, and that ye shall not prolong your days upon the land, whither thou passest over Jordan to go to possess it.
Deuteronomy 30:19
I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing:therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:
regibassman57
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@Quantrill,
No... Ephesians 2:8 is teaching the gift is the deliverance from sin. No man could work for deliverance from sin, only Christ could go to the cross for man's sin. Bulls and goats could not even do the work for sins, only Jesus, this is the gift of salvation through faith.
Matthew 1:21
And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name Jesus: for he shall save his people from their sins.
Luke 1:77
To give knowledge of salvation unto his people by the remission of their sins,
I believe the disciples had "faith the grain of a mustard seed" and learned how to use it when they were with Christ. But they didn't receive "the measure of faith" until their rebirth (Acts 1:4). God gives to man the measure of faith when they are born again.
Romans 12:3
For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.
Also, a sinner has faith to come to the Lord and initially believe with the faith they have from birth. No man receives the gift of faith until they receive it when the are baptized with the Holy Ghost.
Romans 5:2
By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.
We have access to receive the Grace of God through our mustard seed faith. Once we receive the Grace of God (which is the Spirit of God, the Holy Ghost), we receive the full measure of faith (Rom. 12:3).
No... Ephesians 2:8 is teaching the gift is the deliverance from sin. No man could work for deliverance from sin, only Christ could go to the cross for man's sin. Bulls and goats could not even do the work for sins, only Jesus, this is the gift of salvation through faith.
Matthew 1:21
And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name Jesus: for he shall save his people from their sins.
Luke 1:77
To give knowledge of salvation unto his people by the remission of their sins,
I believe the disciples had "faith the grain of a mustard seed" and learned how to use it when they were with Christ. But they didn't receive "the measure of faith" until their rebirth (Acts 1:4). God gives to man the measure of faith when they are born again.
Romans 12:3
For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.
Also, a sinner has faith to come to the Lord and initially believe with the faith they have from birth. No man receives the gift of faith until they receive it when the are baptized with the Holy Ghost.
Romans 5:2
By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.
We have access to receive the Grace of God through our mustard seed faith. Once we receive the Grace of God (which is the Spirit of God, the Holy Ghost), we receive the full measure of faith (Rom. 12:3).
regibassman57
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@Quantrill,
God knew before He told Israel to go to Mount Sinai He would give them the "whole law" and not just the Ten Commandments, but also blood sacrifices for sins; it's all a part of the law. If Israel sinned and offered a sacrifice, they kept the law; sacrifices were a part of the law. God knew Israel's disobedience before because He talked to Moses about it before the law was given.
Exodus 16:28
And the Lord said unto Moses, How long refuse you to keep my commandments and my laws?
It wasn't that Israel couldn't keep the law, but they would not; they refused to keep the law. Abraham kept the law and he showed it's possible if a man is willing.
Genesis 26:5
Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.
My point is God is not going to tell a man to do something they could not do.
You still haven't given me any scriptures stating Israel could not keep the law verbatim. I've given you scriptures showing Israel did keep the law and served God.
What you should be saying is Israel could not keep the law "perfectly" without sinning. But just like us -though we could not be perfect in Christ when we initially came to Him, we can learn to obey as we are willing to grow in Grace and learn.
God knew before He told Israel to go to Mount Sinai He would give them the "whole law" and not just the Ten Commandments, but also blood sacrifices for sins; it's all a part of the law. If Israel sinned and offered a sacrifice, they kept the law; sacrifices were a part of the law. God knew Israel's disobedience before because He talked to Moses about it before the law was given.
Exodus 16:28
And the Lord said unto Moses, How long refuse you to keep my commandments and my laws?
It wasn't that Israel couldn't keep the law, but they would not; they refused to keep the law. Abraham kept the law and he showed it's possible if a man is willing.
Genesis 26:5
Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.
My point is God is not going to tell a man to do something they could not do.
You still haven't given me any scriptures stating Israel could not keep the law verbatim. I've given you scriptures showing Israel did keep the law and served God.
What you should be saying is Israel could not keep the law "perfectly" without sinning. But just like us -though we could not be perfect in Christ when we initially came to Him, we can learn to obey as we are willing to grow in Grace and learn.
regibassman57
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If you were to read any of my post on this forum when I started talking to the Bibleguy, you would see I've always concluded the law to be the Sacrificial Law, the Ceremonial Law, the Judicial Law and the Royal Law of Love the Ten Commandments. I've never changed. This why my point was always Israel could keep the law.
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@Quantrill,
God speaks in Righteousness, He's not going to tell a person to do something they cannot do. God is no respect of person in His commandments because He's just. If God told any person to do what He knew they could not, He would be speaking in vain.
Isaiah 45:19
I have not spoken in secret, in a dark place of the earth: I said not unto the seed of Jacob, Seek you me in vain: I the Lord speak righteousness, I declare things that are right.
God declares what is Right forever.
Adam and Eve were capable of obeying God because they were perfect in His image and likeness without sin but had a choice. They made the wrong choice intellectually. They were not forced to as we are emotionally by the influence of temptation because they were without emotional bondage and Satan was not inside of them influencing them.
God speaks in Righteousness, He's not going to tell a person to do something they cannot do. God is no respect of person in His commandments because He's just. If God told any person to do what He knew they could not, He would be speaking in vain.
Isaiah 45:19
I have not spoken in secret, in a dark place of the earth: I said not unto the seed of Jacob, Seek you me in vain: I the Lord speak righteousness, I declare things that are right.
God declares what is Right forever.
Adam and Eve were capable of obeying God because they were perfect in His image and likeness without sin but had a choice. They made the wrong choice intellectually. They were not forced to as we are emotionally by the influence of temptation because they were without emotional bondage and Satan was not inside of them influencing them.
Quantrill
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God giving Israel the Law made Israel responsible. God knew they wouldn't be able to keep it thus, behold the blood. In other words, as I have already said, if by 'keeping the Law', you mean that man brings the correct sacrifice for his inability to keep the law, then yes, man can keep the law. If by 'keeping the law' you mean God expects man to never break the ten commandments, then no. But, it still made Israel responsible. It made them guilty. Which is why God required the blood.
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Yes..(Eph. 2:8) is clear that faith is not of yourself. It is the gift of God. Just like when Peter made his confession of faith when Jesus asked his disciples who do men say I am. (Matt. 16:13-17) "....And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God. And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Bar jona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed unto thee but my Father which is in heaven."
Did you catch that? Peter did not believe on his own. The Father revealed it to him to believe. Else he would not have believed. Our faith is a gift from God. Our ability to see Jesus Christ as the Son of God and Saviour is a gift from God.
All the other you are using verses trying to say something....makes no sense.
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If you want to admit that God included the blood sacrifices because He knew Israel could not keep the ten commandments, then fine. We agree. That is what I have been saying.
I have given you Scripture that proves Israel could not keep the law verbatim. "Behold the blood". Remember.
If you can't keep the law perfectly, you can't keep the law. Christ allows us to grow in grace. The law does not.
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Quantrill
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God's righteousness has nothing to do with it. Sounds good though. That God is no respecter of persons sounds good also, but has nothing to do with it. The commandment made Adam and Eve responsible. It made sin possible on their part. God knew they would fall. When God asked, "Adam, where art thou"? Do you think He didn't know where Adam and Eve were and their condition?
Quantrill
