Grace vs the Law, debate #23,578

[Sue D.]

For one thing -- it is NOT bogus theology. You sound like one of those people who sees Others as being Wrong if they don't agree with you.

The Torah is one small part of all the Scriptures that God has given to All of us.

In this case Jews Do = Israel.

Back in the Old Testament -- Joseph had 12 sons and one daughter. Josephs name was changed to Israel. His 12 sons became the 12 Tribes of Israel. Judah is the tribe that Jesus came through.

 

[bibleguy]

For one thing -- it is NOT bogus theology. You sound like one of those people who sees Others as being Wrong if they don't agree with you.

The Torah is one small part of all the Scriptures that God has given to All of us.

In this case Jews Do = Israel.

Back in the Old Testament -- Joseph had 12 sons and one daughter. Josephs name was changed to Israel. His 12 sons became the 12 Tribes of Israel. Judah is the tribe that Jesus came through.

:smile:

Hi again!

You wrote: ""You sound like one of those people who sees Others as being Wrong if they don't agree with you."

My response: Hmmm....sounds like you are someone who thinks I am Wrong because I don't agree with you....

Maybe we could just seek Biblical truth together, and learn together?


You wrote: "The Torah is one small part..."

My response: To the contrary, Torah is your life! (Dt.30:20;32:47;Mt.4:4;Dt.8:3), even eternal life (Lk.10:25-28).

Torah is your guarantee of greatness in the forthcoming kingdom (Mt.5:19).

Jesus is TORAH-IN-THE-FLESH (Jn.1:14).

Torah is your guarantee of blessing upon your descendants (Dt.5:10).

Torah is your proof of love for God (Dt. 6:4-25;Mt.22:37).

Tora is your wisdom in the sight of the nations (Dt.4:6).

Torah is justice and mercy (Mt.23:23).

Torah is the faithfulness (Mt.23:23) by which we live (Gal.3:11).

Torah is the proper response to God's grace (Ex. 33:13).

God gives grace to the humble (Jas.4:6;1Pe.5:5), and humble people obey TORAH (Nu.12:3;Ps.25:9;Zep.2:3).

God's mercy extends to those who obey Torah (Ex.20:6).

Torah should correct and rebuke and train your behavior (2Ti.3:16).

Torah is loving your neighbor (Lev.19:18).

Torah is rebuking your neighbor (Lev.19:17).

Torah is affirmed by all the Prophets.

Torah is required in the Psalms (Ps.1;19;119;etc.)

Torah is required in the Proverbs.

Torah is required by Jesus, with threat of punishment against those who oppose Torah (Mt.5:19-20;7:21-23;13:41-42).

Torah is taught and obeyed by Jesus (Mt.23:2-3,23,34;22:37;4:4;5:19-20;Lk.10:25-28;etc.)

Torah is taught and obeyed by the apostles (1Cor.7:19;1Jn.5:3).

Those who do Torah are justified (Rom.2:13).

Torah passes directly into the NEW COVENANT (Jer. 31:33).

Torah-obedience is an essential characteristic of end-times believers (Rev. 12:17;14:12).

Torah-disobedience is an essential characteristic of the spirit of ANTI-Christ (2Th.2:3).

WOW!!!! I'd say that Torah is not just a "small part"...

Rather, it's the FOUNDATION and FOCUS!


Now, you wrote: "In this case Jews Do = Israel."

My response: NOT at all. Paul identifies believing GENTILES as the ISRAELITES about whom Hosea prophesied (Rom.9:24-26).

Again, Paul says believing Gentiles are NOT excluded from Israel (Eph.2:12).

Again, ALL Christians partake in the New Covenant (which is between God and ISRAEL, Jer. 31:31;Heb.8:8).

CONCLUSION: ALL Christians are included as fellow ISRAELITES!

And we share in the blessings promised to ISRAEL!

We share in the promised inheritance!

We share in the promised GREAT FUTURE as described in the prophets.

And most of us do not even know who we are (Israel).

And most of us do not even know how we should live (TORAH!)

blessings...

 

[Sue D.]

And I'll respond back with God's Word / Bible.

Looks like we're on the opposite sides of this discussion.

You're strong on Torah and Israel.

I'm strong on God's Word / Bible and God's way of salvation.

I've been doing some research. You're saying that the Church is an extension Of Israel.

And I'm saying that Israel and the church are separate entities.

Let Us Reason Ministry's has a good article -- can't get my printer to print.

So -- back to the most important question. What is our salvation based on. Accepting Jesus Christ as our personal Savior, the Jesus Christ is the Son of God. He died for our sins , was buried and rose again the 3rd day -- all according to Scripture.

 

[bibleguy]

And I'll respond back with God's Word / Bible.

Looks like we're on the opposite sides of this discussion.

You're strong on Torah and Israel.

I'm strong on God's Word / Bible and God's way of salvation.

I've been doing some research. You're saying that the Church is an extension Of Israel.

And I'm saying that Israel and the church are separate entities.

Let Us Reason Ministry's has a good article -- can't get my printer to print.

So -- back to the most important question. What is our salvation based on. Accepting Jesus Christ as our personal Savior, the Jesus Christ is the Son of God. He died for our sins , was buried and rose again the 3rd day -- all according to Scripture.

Hi!

You wrote: "And I'll respond back with God's Word / Bible."

My response: That would be great! But thus far, I don't see you listing a single Scripture which supports your position (against mine).

I've given several passages from the Bible which support my position.


You wrote: ""I'm strong on God's Word / Bible and God's way of salvation."

My response: Awesome! So am I.

You wrote: "You're saying that the Church is an extension Of Israel."

My response: The church IS Israel....it's the same people group. No "extension". It's simply two different terms which can refer to the SAME group of people....the people of God.

Stephen (in Acts) refers to the Israelites as CHURCH.

The LXX refers to the Israelites as CHURCH.

Jesus refers to CHURCH before he was even crucified! (Mt. 16;Mt.18). Thus, CHURCH already existed.

The CHURCH partakes in the New Covenant which is between God and ISRAEL (Jer.31:31;Heb.8:8); thus, the church CAN NOT be distinct from Israel.


You wrote: "Let Us Reason Ministry's has a good article -- can't get my printer to print."

My response: Bummer! Can you give us the link? Would be good to engage their viewpoint.....


You wrote: "So -- back to the most important question. What is our salvation based on. Accepting Jesus Christ as our personal Savior, the Jesus Christ is the Son of God. He died for our sins , was buried and rose again the 3rd day -- all according to Scripture."

My response: Yes indeed! But that's no excuse to neglect your duty (as an Israelite) to live as Israelites should live (in obedience to Torah, Mal.4:4;Jer.31:33;Heb.8:10;10:16), as a Torah-obedient New Covenant participant.

Agreed?

blessings...

 

[Sue D.]

Is part of your 'reasoning' the fact that the Children of Israel were dispersed into the nations around them and Therefore -- there's a Chance that Gentiles have some Jewish ancestry in their blood?

As it happens, I'm half Swedish and half German.

There Are a couple of women I know who Do have some Jewish blood in them. The one lady Is very much Jewish. The other is simply aware of some Jewishness in her ancestry, but does Not consider herself a Jew. She is a former RCC who accepted Christ as her Savior some years ago.

Sorry to disappoint you, but I'm NOT an Israelite and do Not need to live as a Torah-obedient New Covenant participant.

Take a look at Galations 2:15 - 19

Isn't the 'situation' not whether a person is a Jew or Gentile, but whether we are trying to follow the law for personal salvation or accepting the grace that God has shown us. '
It's good works vs saved by grace.

The Jews rejected Jesus Christ as their promised Messiah. So the Gospel was extended to the 'rest of us' . the Gentiles. The Jews had been Big on circumcision because back in the Old Testament that's what God required. All Jewish boys and men were to be circumcised. Boys on the 8th day after their birth. That was God's Thing for His chosen people. But His chosen people resisted Him.

Originally -- the gospel unto salvation was only to be preached to the Jews.

Well -- a person Can simply 'google' Let Us Reason Ministries and look for that article. Its a really good site.

In the Matthew passage, Jesus Christ was telling about His coming church. 16:18 ".... I will build my Church ..." a future event.

 

[bibleguy]

Is part of your 'reasoning' the fact that the Children of Israel were dispersed into the nations around them and Therefore -- there's a Chance that Gentiles have some Jewish ancestry in their blood?

As it happens, I'm half Swedish and half German.

There Are a couple of women I know who Do have some Jewish blood in them. The one lady Is very much Jewish. The other is simply aware of some Jewishness in her ancestry, but does Not consider herself a Jew. She is a former RCC who accepted Christ as her Savior some years ago.

Sorry to disappoint you, but I'm NOT an Israelite and do Not need to live as a Torah-obedient New Covenant participant.

Take a look at Galations 2:15 - 19

Isn't the 'situation' not whether a person is a Jew or Gentile, but whether we are trying to follow the law for personal salvation or accepting the grace that God has shown us. '
It's good works vs saved by grace.

The Jews rejected Jesus Christ as their promised Messiah. So the Gospel was extended to the 'rest of us' . the Gentiles. The Jews had been Big on circumcision because back in the Old Testament that's what God required. All Jewish boys and men were to be circumcised. Boys on the 8th day after their birth. That was God's Thing for His chosen people. But His chosen people resisted Him.

Originally -- the gospel unto salvation was only to be preached to the Jews.

Well -- a person Can simply 'google' Let Us Reason Ministries and look for that article. Its a really good site.

In the Matthew passage, Jesus Christ was telling about His coming church. 16:18 ".... I will build my Church ..." a future event.

Hi Sue,

Thanks for your response.

I'll start to catalogue some of the evidence now on the table.

1. Paul identifies believing Gentiles as the ISRAELITES about whom Hosea prophesied (Rom.9:24-26). Do you think Paul was wrong?
2. Paul says believing Gentiles are NOT excluded from Israel (Eph.2:12). Thus, they are included as ISRAELITES. Do you think Paul was wrong?
3. Paul includes Gentile Corinthians in the New Covenant (1Cor.11:25), which is a covenant between God and ISRAEL. Thus, Paul identifies Gentile Corinthian believers as ISRAELITES. Do you think Paul was wrong?
4. Paul instructs Gentile Corinthians to obey God's commands (1Cor.7:19), which of course are contained in Torah (1Ki.2:3). Torah is for ISRAELITES (Mal.4:4). Thus, Paul presumes Corinthian Gentile believers are ISRAELITES who should obey the Torah given to ISRAEL. Do you think Paul was wrong?
5. You claim that Gentile believers are NOT Israelites. But the New Covenant is only between God and ISRAEL! (Jer.31:31;Heb.8:8). Therefore, you are required to infer that Gentile believers are EXCLUDED from the New Covenant. That's another problem with your position.
6. Israelite membership has nothing to do with "Jewish ancestry" in one's blood. Even aliens were included as Israelites (Dt.29:10-13;31:12).
7. Even foreigners (Is.56:3-7) are included in the covenant between God and Israel. Thus, Israelite memberhip has nothing to do with "Jewish ancestry" in one's blood.
8. Paul says we live by faith (Gal.3:11) which requires TORAH (Mt.23:23;Ps.119:30,86,138).
9. Jesus says we live by Torah (Mt.4:4).
10. Jesus commands Torah (Mt.23:2-3,23).
11. Jesus sends forth Torah-teachers (Mt.23:34) which you oppose.
12. Jesus requires obedience to even the smallest Torah commands (Mt.5:19).
13. Jesus requires BETTER Torah-obedience than the Pharisees (Mt.5:20).
14. Jesus confirms that Torah is still in force (because NOT everything is accomplished...e.g., Dt.30:1-8).
15. Jesus said Torah is NOT abolished (Mt.5:17). Thus, "fulfilled" can NOT mean "abolished". Thus, Torah must still be in force.
16. Jesus comes to RESTORE Levitical Torah activity (Mal.3:1-4).
17. Jesus says we should love God (Mt.22:37 cites Dt. 6). In context, this confirms we should love God by obeying ALL Torah (Dt. 6:25).
18. Jesus says Torah-obedience is sufficient for eternal life (Lk.10:25-28).
19. Jesus inaugurates the New Covenant (Lk.22) for His disciples. The New Covenant is between God and ISRAEL. Thus, ALL disciples are included as ISRAELITES.
20. Jesus applies His Torah teachings to YOU (Mt.28:19-20).


You wrote: "Sorry to disappoint you, but I'm NOT an Israelite and do Not need to live as a Torah-obedient New Covenant participant."

My response: YOU should be disappointed! You are needlessly (and unbiblically) trying to EXCLUDE yourself from the very New Covenant itself! How so? Because the New Covenant is only between God and ISRAEL (Jer.31:31;Heb.8:8). If you are NOT an Israelite, then you do NOT participate in the New Covenant between God and Israel.

How can you partake in a covenant between God and Israel, if you're not even an Israelite! That makes no sense!

You need to stop ignoring Eph.2:12 which confirms that you are NOT excluded from Israel!

Again, you have now explicitly OPPOSED the New Covenant. Why? Because the New Covenant entails TORAH being written upon your heart so that you OBEY it (Rom.10:8 cites Dt.30:14; also Jer.31:33;Heb.8:10;10:16). Why would you oppose obedience to the very TORAH of the New Covenant in which you claim to participate? That doesn't even make sense!

Gal. 2:15-19? Let's look!

Of COURSE Jews are not Gentiles (Gal.2:15).

Of COURSE we are not justified by faithless work of the law (Gal.2:16). But we ARE justified by law (Rom.2:13) if obeyed in FAITH (Gal.3:11;Rom.10:8 citing Dt.30:14).

Of COURSE we are justified by faith in Christ (Gal.2:16) who commands us to obey Torah (Mt.4:4;22:37;23:2-3,23,34;5:19-20).

Of COURSE we died to the law (Gal.2:19) of sin and death (Rom.8:2), so that we can obey the law of the Spirit (Rom.8:2) which does NOT lead us to disobey Torah (Rom.8:7) but which testifies we should OBEY Torah (Heb.10:15-16;Eze.36:27).

Nothing in Gal. 2 states that you are not an Israelite!

Nothing in Gal. 2 states that you should not grow in faithful obedience to Torah after being saved!

After all, Gal. 2 was written by the SAME PAUL who proves Gentile believers are Israelites (Rom.9:24-26;Eph.2:12;1Cor.11:25). So let's not force Gal. 2 into a contradiction with Paul's other writings.

You wrote: "Isn't the 'situation' not whether a person is a Jew or Gentile, but whether we are trying to follow the law for personal salvation or accepting the grace that God has shown us. '"

My response: I never said we faithlessly "follow the law for personal salvation". The Bible never says such a thing.

Of COURSE we are saved by grace. That's not even the point here.

You are an ISRAELITE who is saved by grace (Eph.2:9-10), not by faithless obedience to law (Gal. 2:16).

You are an ISRAELITE who partakes in the New Covenant between God and ISRAEL (Jer.31:31;Heb.8:8).

You are an ISRAELITE who should obey the Torah of the New Covenant in which you partake (Jer.31:33;Heb.8:10;10:16;Rom.10:8 applies Dt.30:14 to you!)

You just don't know it.

But Jesus loves you just the same!

He also loves you enough to send me to patiently point you to properly understand who you are, and how you should mature.


You wrote: "The Jews rejected Jesus Christ as their promised Messiah."

My response: THOUSANDS of Jews ACCEPTED Christ, and they (properly) obeyed Torah with zeal (Ac.21), as we all should.

Some of the believers were even animal-sacrificing priests! (Ac.6:7)


You wrote: "So the Gospel was extended to the 'rest of us' . the Gentiles. "

My response: We partake in the Gospel through the COVENANTS. The Covenants are between God and ISRAEL (Jer.31:31;Heb.8:8;Eph.2:12).

The Gospel is GOOD NEWS. Why? Because even Gentile believers are not excluded from Israel or the covenants (Eph.2:12).


You wrote: "The Jews had been Big on circumcision because back in the Old Testament that's what God required."

My response: There is no Old Testament requirement for adult male Gentile convert circumcision. Paul agrees that God's commands do not require circumcision for adult male Gentile converts (1Cor.7:18-19).


You wrote: "All Jewish boys and men were to be circumcised."

My response: Rather, all ISRAELITE INFANTS were to be circumcised (Lev.12:3).


You wrote: "That was God's Thing for His chosen people."

My response: YOU are included in that chosen people! (Eph.2:12;3:6;Jer.31:31;Heb.8:8;1Pe.2:10;Heb.4:9;Jn.15:16,19).

You are NOT excluded from the chosen people (Eph.2:12). Remember?


You wrote: "But His chosen people resisted Him."

My response: Some did. Some didn't.


You wrote: "Originally -- the gospel unto salvation was only to be preached to the Jews."

My response: Rather, it is for ALL people (Ps.67:2;Gal.3:8;Ge.12:3).


You wrote: "In the Matthew passage, Jesus Christ was telling about His coming church. 16:18 ".... I will build my Church ..." a future event."

My response: Jesus never said the church was an exclusively "future event"! He said he would BUILD the church. The church ALREADY EXISTED! (see "ἐκκλησία " in LXX, for example, also see Mt.18:17 for proof the church already existed).

If Jesus plans to build upon an already existing church, then the church already existed!

Jesus never said: "I build a brand new church, from scratch, which disobeys the Torah and the Prophets and the Psalms and Proverbs".

Moreover, Jesus affirms that the already-existing CHURCH (Mt.18:17) is an ISRAELITE assembly which obeys TORAH (Mt.18:16).

You wrote: "Well -- a person Can simply 'google' Let Us Reason Ministries and look for that article. Its a really good site."

My response: Can you provide me the link? I'm not sure which article you are talking about.

And let's be careful to place our faith in SCRIPTURE, not in "Let Us Reason Ministries".

After all, if "Let Us Reason Ministries" can not defend itself against the Biblical position I've set forth, then why would you recommend it?

Anyway, hope you have a chance to better address these dozens of Biblical considerations which disconfirm your viewpoint.

blessings....

 

[Sue D.]

Hi -- as it turns out "Let us Reason Ministries" was Not a good choice for articles. There was that one article that Was good. Since it won't print, well, I went to other sources.

You've set forth but ONE Biblical position.

Have just googled Covenant Theology.

www.theopedia.com/ covenant-theology.

there might not be a space between 'covenant' and 'theology'

Spiritualizing or allegorizing Scripture to make them fit into various covenants. (what the article said)

"What is covenant Theology-- Friends of Israel Gospel Ministry."

Very interesting articles.

Hope you find these articles interesting.

 

[bibleguy]

Hi -- as it turns out "Let us Reason Ministries" was Not a good choice for articles. There was that one article that Was good. Since it won't print, well, I went to other sources.

You've set forth but ONE Biblical position.

Have just googled Covenant Theology.

www.theopedia.com/ covenant-theology.

there might not be a space between 'covenant' and 'theology'

Spiritualizing or allegorizing Scripture to make them fit into various covenants. (what the article said)

"What is covenant Theology-- Friends of Israel Gospel Ministry."

Very interesting articles.

Hope you find these articles interesting.

Thanks for the links!

Do you advocate Covenant Theology?

best...

 

[Sue D.]

bibleguy -- no I don't advocate it -- because one of those articles says that one Weakness of Covenant theology is the stand those followers take on Israel and the Church. Those followers stand firm with everyone becoming Israel. And That is a weakness because they are separate entities.

 

[bibleguy]

bibleguy -- no I don't advocate it -- because one of those articles says that one Weakness of Covenant theology is the stand those followers take on Israel and the Church. Those followers stand firm with everyone becoming Israel. And That is a weakness because they are separate entities.

Ok...thanks for answering!

But where is your proof that "Israel" and "church" are separate?

After all, I already gave you Biblical evidence confirming that ISRAEL = CHURCH.

Remember?

1. Rom.9:24-26
2. 1Cor.11
3. Heb. 8
4. Eph.2
5. Jer. 31
6. Dt. 29
7. Dt. 31
8. Is. 56

So, do you have any Scripture to back-up your position?

best....

 

[Wired 4 Fishen]

Howdy!

You wrote: "First of All if God made the new covenant only between Himself and the Israelites then none of us could be saved."

My response: Rather, the fact that we are saved PROVES that we are Israelites!

After all, the New Covenant is ONLY between God and ISRAEL (Jer. 31:31; Heb. 8:8).

That's why Paul says that Gentiles are the ISRAELITES about whom Hosea prophesied (Rom. 9:24-26).

That's why Paul says that Gentiles are NOT excluded from Israel (Eph.2:12).

Conclusion: Believing Gentiles are included as fellow ISRAELITES! We are GRAFTED INTO ISRAEL so as to partake in the covenants.

Nothing in the Scriptures you quoted states that it is false that the New Covenant is ONLY between God and Israel.


You wrote: "So stop judging others by your own understanding."

My response: Then you are guilty of what you accuse me!

Moreover, we are REQUIRED to judge/correct/rebuke others (Lk.17:3;2Ti.3:16;1Cor.5:12;Mt.7:20;2Th.3:14).

Thus, I use Scripture to rebuke you so that you be trained to obey ALL Scripture (thus you should obey Torah, 2Ti.3:16).


Why would you oppose the Scriptures which plainly state that the New Covenant is between God and ISRAEL? (Jer. 31:31;Heb.8:8).

blessings...

Wow you truly have no understanding of the Scriptures.

You like to post row after row of scriptures claiming they prove or back your point.

Interesting thing here , to Rightly Device Scripture we must do so with other scripture. This means if a single scripture or fraction there of DISAGREES with ones use of their rows of scripture then their use is in error.

Have a great day

 

[bibleguy]

Wow you truly have no understanding of the Scriptures.

You like to post row after row of scriptures claiming they prove or back your point.

Interesting thing here , to Rightly Device Scripture we must do so with other scripture. This means if a single scripture or fraction there of DISAGREES with ones use of their rows of scripture then their use is in error.

Have a great day

True. So where is the "single scripture" that disagrees with the Biblical position I've set forth?

Thanks...

 

[Wired 4 Fishen]

True. So where is the "single scripture" that disagrees with the Biblical position I've set forth?

Thanks...

I already posed some
You ignored them.
Old Covenant between God and man

New Covenant is between God and Jesus

Please stop this nonsense
Blessings

 

[bibleguy]

I already posed some
You ignored them.
Old Covenant between God and man

New Covenant is between God and Jesus

Please stop this nonsense
Blessings

Uhh.....you NEVER posted any Scripture that proves the New Covenant is "between God and Jesus".

We are not allowed to say whatever we like, and then pretend it's true.

The New Covenant is between God and ISRAEL (Jer.31:31;Heb.8:8).

Why do you claim these Biblical Scriptures are "nonsense"?

 

[Wired 4 Fishen]

Uhh.....you NEVER posted any Scripture that proves the New Covenant is "between God and Jesus".

Just copied it.
15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance. 16 For where a testamentis, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator. 17 For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.

We are not allowed to say whatever we like, and then pretend it's true.

The New Covenant is between God and ISRAEL (Jer.31:31;Heb.8:8).

That must not be true because after all that is what you are doing.

Why do you claim these Biblical Scriptures are "nonsense"?

This further proves my point.
You are not understanding what you read.

I have no issues with Scripture. None at all However it is your understanding of these scripture is what I said was non sense.

You are trying to build a doctrine from 2 scriptures in which you truly do not understand.

No offense meant but you really are in error.
Blessings

 

[bibleguy]

Just copied it.
15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance. 16 For where a testamentis, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator. 17 For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.



That must not be true because after all that is what you are doing.



This further proves my point.
You are not understanding what you read.

I have no issues with Scripture. None at all However it is your understanding of these scripture is what I said was non sense.

You are trying to build a doctrine from 2 scriptures in which you truly do not understand.

No offense meant but you really are in error.
Blessings

You've proven ignorance of the term "mediator" and you've contradicted Jer.31:31 and Heb. 8:8.

Jesus is the MEDIATOR BETWEEN GOD AND MEN (1Ti.2:5).....not between the Father and Son! But between GOD AND MEN!

What "men"? The "House of Israel and the House of Judah"! (Jer.31:31;Heb.8:8).

A mediator BRINGS ABOUT AGREEMENT BETWEEN PARTIES.

Who are the parties? The LORD AND ISRAEL/JUDAH (Jer.31:31;Heb.8:8)

Jer. 31:31 (and Heb. 8:8) state that the LORD makes a "New Covenant with the House of Israel and the House of Judah".

NOT a covenant between the LORD and JESUS! But a covenant between the LORD and the "House of Israel and the House of Judah".

Of COURSE Jesus is the mediator....but that doesn't prove the New Covenant is not between the "LORD" and "the House of Israel/Judah".

So where's my error, buddy?

You think Jeremiah is "in error" ?

Jeremiah was just joking?

The writer of Hebrews was just joking?

Sorry....can 't buy it.

I'm sticking with the Bible.

best....

 

[KingJ]

So where's my error, buddy?

Eph 2:11-15 Therefore, remember that formerly you who are Gentiles by birth and called “uncircumcised” by those who call themselves “the circumcision” (which is done in the body by human hands), remember that at that time you were separate from Christ, excluded from citizenship in Israel and foreigners to the covenants of the promise, without hope and without God in the world. But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near by the blood of Christ. For he himself is our peace, who has made the two groups one and has destroyed the barrier, the dividing wall of hostility, by setting aside in his flesh the law with its commands and regulations. His purpose was to create in himself one new humanity out of the two, thus making peace.

By saying gentiles become Jews / we will return to the Judaic law / we are now Israelites, shows you have not discerned this scripture or the NT.

The death of Jesus on the cross fulfills the requirement of the law. There will never ever be a return to Judaic / Lev 20 type law.

1 Pet 2:24 He himself bore our sins” in his body on the cross, so that we might die to sins and live for righteousness; “by his wounds you have been healed.

Both Gentile and Jew are now justified by faith in Jesus Rom 5:1 Therefore, since we have been justified through faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ.

No longer Jew or gentile, only Christian Gal 3:28 For you are no longer Jew or gentile, only one in Christ Jesus.

 

[Wired 4 Fishen]

You've proven ignorance of the term "mediator" and you've contradicted Jer.31:31 and Heb. 8:8.

Jesus is the MEDIATOR BETWEEN GOD AND MEN (1Ti.2:5).....not between the Father and Son! But between GOD AND MEN!

What "men"? The "House of Israel and the House of Judah"! (Jer.31:31;Heb.8:8).

A mediator BRINGS ABOUT AGREEMENT BETWEEN PARTIES.

Who are the parties? The LORD AND ISRAEL/JUDAH (Jer.31:31;Heb.8:8)

Jer. 31:31 (and Heb. 8:8) state that the LORD makes a "New Covenant with the House of Israel and the House of Judah".

NOT a covenant between the LORD and JESUS! But a covenant between the LORD and the "House of Israel and the House of Judah".

Of COURSE Jesus is the mediator....but that doesn't prove the New Covenant is not between the "LORD" and "the House of Israel/Judah".

So where's my error, buddy?

You think Jeremiah is "in error" ?

Jeremiah was just joking?

The writer of Hebrews was just joking?

Sorry....can 't buy it.

I'm sticking with the Bible.

best....
Covenant - Agreement - Last Will and Testament.

A Will
Natural - Between person and legal system unto beneficiary.

Spiritual - Between Father - Son (Jesus)and beneficiary

In a Will you have the main parties associated with a Will: Testator – A testator is the person creating the will.

Executor or Mediator is who the Agreement is with.

Beneficiary – A beneficiary is the party receiving an inheritance, from the testator..

 

[Sue D.]

bibleguy -- that passage did Not specify Which men -- but Men in general. 1 Timothy 2:5 In fact All men. Mediator between God and men -- the Man Christ Jesus. A mediator is a person / entity who acts as a "go-between."

 

[bibleguy]

Eph 2:11-15 Therefore, remember that formerly you who are Gentiles by birth and called “uncircumcised” by those who call themselves “the circumcision” (which is done in the body by human hands), remember that at that time you were separate from Christ, excluded from citizenship in Israel and foreigners to the covenants of the promise, without hope and without God in the world. But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near by the blood of Christ. For he himself is our peace, who has made the two groups one and has destroyed the barrier, the dividing wall of hostility, by setting aside in his flesh the law with its commands and regulations. His purpose was to create in himself one new humanity out of the two, thus making peace.

By saying gentiles become Jews / we will return to the Judaic law / we are now Israelites, shows you have not discerned this scripture or the NT.

The death of Jesus on the cross fulfills the requirement of the law. There will never ever be a return to Judaic / Lev 20 type law.

1 Pet 2:24 He himself bore our sins” in his body on the cross, so that we might die to sins and live for righteousness; “by his wounds you have been healed.

Both Gentile and Jew are now justified by faith in Jesus Rom 5:1 Therefore, since we have been justified through faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ.

No longer Jew or gentile, only Christian Gal 3:28 For you are no longer Jew or gentile, only one in Christ Jesus.

Hello!

You wrote: "By saying gentiles become Jews..."

My response: I never said that. Rather, Gentile believers are ISRAELITES.

1. Eph.2:12 confirms that Gentile believers are NOT excluded from Israel.
2. Paul identifies Gentile believers as the ISRAELITES about whom Hosea prophesied (Rom.9:24-26).
3. Paul affirms the NEW Covenant as applicable to Corinthian Gentiles (1Cor.11), but the New Covenant is between God and ISRAEL. Thus, Paul identifies Gentile believers as fellow ISRAELITE participants in the New Covenant.
4. Gentile believers are grafted into ISRAEL (Rom.11).
5. Only ISRAELITES partake in the New Covenant (Jer.31:31;Heb.8:8), and ALL Christians partake in the New Covenant.

CONCLUSION: ALL Christians are included as fellow Israelite participants in the New Covenant between God and Israel.


You wrote: "we will return to the Judaic law"

My response: We will return to obey 100% of all Torah which has been given to ALL ISRAEL (Mal.4:4;Dt.30:1-8).

After all, Torah ("תּוֹרָה ",Jer.31:33) passes directly into the New Covenant. So of COURSE we obey Torah as New Covenant participants!


You wrote: "shows you have not discerned this scripture or the NT."

My response: To the contrary, Paul plainly states that Gentile believers are NOT EXCLUDED from Israel or from the Torah-laden covenants! Thus, they are accepted as fellow ISRAELITES! Thus, YOU have not discerned this Scripture or the NT.


You wrote: "The death of Jesus on the cross fulfills the requirement of the law"

My response: Of course! But "fulfilled" does not entail "abolished". Thus, Torah PERSISTS.

You can fulfill your marriage covenant with your wife today....and tomorrow, the covenant persists! FULFILL does not entail ABOLISH.


You wrote: "There will never ever be a return to Judaic / Lev 20 type law."

My response: Of COURSE we will return to again obey 100% of all Torah! Have you not read Dt.30:1-8? This prophecy is yet FUTURE!


You wrote: "Both Gentile and Jew are now justified by faith in Jesus"

My response: Of Course. And we are ALSO justified by obeying TORAH (Rom.2:13). After all, FAITH is essential to TORAH (Mt.23:23).

Thus Jesus said that Torah-obedience is sufficient for eternal life (Lk.10:25-28). Why? Because FAITHFUL Torah-obedience entails FAITHFUL obedience to Jesus.


You wrote: "No longer Jew or gentile, only Christian Gal 3:28 For you are no longer Jew or gentile, only one in Christ Jesus."

My response: Don't be silly! Do males and females (Gal.3:28) no longer exist as distinct genders? Of COURSE they still exist!

Likewise, JEWS and GENTILES STILL EXIST. Paul CONTINUES to refer to GENTILES as GENTILES (Rom.11:13) even though Paul ALSO identifies Gentile believers as ISRAELITES (Eph.2:12;Rom.9:24-26;Rom.11).

Let's not twist Paul's comment (Gal.3:28) into a ridiculous absurd refusal to acknowledge the ONGOING distinction between MALE and FEMALE.

blessings....