Heaven after hell?

[KingJ]

@KingJ -- Maybe it's that you don't like being 'called on' what you're saying. You took the events of the one chapter and didn't bother to read the next chapter. It's call the context of the passage. Makes a lot of difference. There Are those who believe that when they use the KJV -- Anything they do With that version will be correct -- simply because it Is the King James Version.

No, I don't think its me. You go off at terrible tangents and accuse me of everything that is wrong with the world...and the King James Version.

I am sure you mean well and love Jesus, you just really need to learn to quote.

 

[Brad Huber]

Thank you. I feel He is working with me, but He is very quiet. Where other people say that " God told me to do this or that," God does not speak to me like that, or audibly where I hear Him so I don't know if I am doing something wrong.

If God speaks to a bird, does he chirp? Not can God chirp, of course He could if He wished. Would he chirp to a bird in bird language, or would he make His desire known in the birds mind?

 

[Sue D.]

No, I don't think its me. You go off at terrible tangents and accuse me of everything that is wrong with the world...and the King James Version.

I am sure you mean well and love Jesus, you just really need to learn to quote.

There's nothing wrong with the KJV -- I just prefer the NKJV and the old NIV>
You're over-reacting a bit. I just speak up like lots of others do. Here on Forum, I'm fairly vocal -- in real life -- very quiet.

 

[Garee]

Hell -- is the 'holding place' until they get to the great White Throne Judgement -- and then they go to their Final place for eternity / the lake of fire and brimstone. Those are different places and times.

Hell is the suffering of dying in a corupted body called the first death. The wage of sin. The second death is the death itself in respect to the letter of the law. In the new heaven and earth death will no riegn or appear in the new heavens and earth

Yoked with Christ our burden of hell is made lighter and we as new creatures have a living hope of rising up on the last day

The letter of the law death (thou shall not eat of the forbidden fruit of doing the will of another) The law wil not rise up and conemem to death another entire creation forever and ever more

 

[Sue D.]

@ Garee -- Romans tells us that the wages of sin is death -- physical death.

Sounds like you're using the term 'hell' the same as dying?

Hell is a place -- dying is what happens to a person.

Sometimes the term 'hell' is used by people to mean that their 'life here on earth is like a living hell' -- meaning that it's pretty horrible existence.

Your comment "yoked with Christ" are you referring to a person's salvation? Am trying to understand what you're talking about. "our burden of hell is made lighter" -- well -- when a person accepts Jesus Christ as personal Savior -- the burden of sin is taken away by the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. A new inner peace is there.

And your last sentence "The letter of the law death(though shall not eat of the forbidden fruit of doing the will of another) where in Scripture do you find that?

 

[Jesus_is_LORD]

If people are in hell for eternity, why would they get out on Judgement Day only to be recast into hell? Could some of them have learned their lesson or been punished enough and be judged differently? Maybe they just fell short and have served their time?

In honesty, I never thought about it that way. Worth reflecting on.

I think about the story of Larzarus and the Rich man who was in torment.

Was Jesus showing us what was happening now or what was to come?
If it was happening now, then why would they leave hell only to be cast back in, great question.

I've heard some say that the Bible tells us that hell is eventually thrown into the lake of fire, which is the
final judgment. Meaning that they die and go to hell, but are thrown into the lake of fire afterward. But I like your
question, and will go back and read what others have said.

 

[Jesus_is_LORD]

Question, so @KingJ and @Sue D.

If you both could summarize your position in 1 sentence or 2 what would it be?

[ I believe that............. ]

I'm trying to see where you two stand and how your positions differ or align.

Thank you.

I also think stating your position as such will help the other person see if they are understanding you clearly or not.

 

[Garee]

@ Garee -- Romans tells us that the wages of sin is death -- physical death.

Sounds like you're using the term 'hell' the same as dying?

Hell is a place -- dying is what happens to a person.

Sometimes the term 'hell' is used by people to mean that their 'life here on earth is like a living hell' -- meaning that it's pretty horrible existence.

Your comment "yoked with Christ" are you referring to a person's salvation? Am trying to understand what you're talking about. "our burden of hell is made lighter" -- well -- when a person accepts Jesus Christ as personal Savior -- the burden of sin is taken away by the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. A new inner peace is there.

And your last sentence "The letter of the law death(though shall not eat of the forbidden fruit of doing the will of another) where in Scripture do you find that?

Hi Thanks for the reply.

Sorry for the rambling in advance.

I would offer. Yes death by dying (hell) .Christians as new creatures (sons of God) are given a short life span on earth as a result of the fall. (Approx. 70 years)

Hell is the suffering we experience while living in these earthen bodies, the result of the fall when God corrupted the entire first creation when His glory departed. . Thou shall surely die in dying.( Genesis 3:3-4 ) A corrupted body living in a corrupted creation. In that way the whole temporal creation longs to be clothed with the eternal. Therefore we can rejoice in the unseen things of God the eternal making our sufferings lighter.

Genesis 6:12 And God looked upon the earth, and, behold, it was corrupt; for all flesh had corrupted his way upon the earth.

When the will of God was revealed to Cain. Cain called it a punishment that was more than he could bear. The kind that Christ bore yoked with Abel his brother. Abel the first recorded martyr the voice of his blood still cries out from the heart of corrupted earth longing to be clothed in the incorruptible new heavens and earth.

Genesis 4:13 And Cain said unto the Lord, My punishment is greater than I can bear.

It became the mark (666) no man could bear. The mark of the word of God. . what he says comes to pass. By that mark Cain suffered unto death all the days of his life. . not yoked with Christ, no future hope as a living promise..

Genesis 4:15 And the Lord said unto him, Therefore whosoever slayeth Cain, vengeance shall be taken on him sevenfold. And the Lord set a mark upon Cain, lest any finding him should kill him.

He remained a restles wanderer all the days of his life.

Christians that are yoked with Christ their burden is made lighter if they do not harden their hearts in unbelief (no faith) And they have a future hope of a new incorruptible body.

2 Corinthians 6:9-10 King James Version (KJV) As unknown, and yet well known; as dying, and, behold, we live; as chastened, and not killed; As sorrowful, yet always rejoicing; as poor, yet making many rich; as having nothing, and yet possessing all things.

So yes hell is a place of suffering the first death. (not as I will but as the father empowered the Son). The second death is the death of death along with its suffering called hell.

The Psalms help us understand that death the end of suffering called corruption did not occur the father having strengthened the Son as a living sacrifice .The soul of the Son of man working with the unseen father completed the outward demonstration .The peace of God according to his unseen understanding of faith .

Psalm 16:10 For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.

The words . .neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.must mean to the end of the matter .never to rise to new spirit life. Jesus sufered unto death just as Jonas not dead never to rise, all three times the father worked in them with them to finish doing the good pleasure of our God.

The letter of the law death and its sufferings called hell will both be tossed into the judgment fire of God. Death will never to rise up and condemn through dying another whole creation..


Revelation 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

 

[KingJ]

Question, so @KingJ and @Sue D.

If you both could summarize your position in 1 sentence or 2 what would it be?

[ I believe that............. ]

I'm trying to see where you two stand and how your positions differ or align.

Thank you.

I also think stating your position as such will help the other person see if they are understanding you clearly or not.

One or two sentences.... .

I believe God is rational and good. The very definition of both words. As such any good person will agree with what God does to those who are eternally damned, even the ''eternal damnation'' part.

We just need to chew / pray for insight on the topic. Many here, like Sue, do simply not do so and end up teaching and preaching that God is wicked.

When exposed they say ''they did not say God is wicked''. If I teach that God does something wicked, I am guilty of representing Him to the lost as wicked. It is just crazy to see Christians not want to face this reality. A Christian has ''one'' job and that is to properly represent God to the lost. When our message is ''repent or burn in torturous fire for all eternity'' we just utterly fail at it.

There is a fre, fact. Eternal hell is called the ''lake of fire''. But we know from Lazarus and the rich man that within Hades there exists a fire different to the one we are familiar with.

So we need to ask the question, how does a good God Psalm 136:1 (fact 1) who is righteous in all His way Psalm 145:17 (fact 2) and is described as light with nor darkness in Him at all 1 John 1:5 (fact 3) keep face with us the saints / be beyond judgement of being wicked when we read scripture like ''1. eternal separation, 2. eternal darkness, 3. eternal fire, 4. weeping and gnashing of teeth''.

Someone like Sue, will just share eternal FIRE with the lost. The poor lost person has nightmares of God placing them in a brazen bull of sort having their flesh burnt off for all eternity. Utter Christianity fail. Epic fail! Cannot fail harder! Need to start at scripture 1. Need to ask God who He is and reset all you have learnt about Him!!

After much study, prayer, meditation on all scripture and in light of the three scriptures / facts I quoted about who God is, the following is evident.

1. Eternal separation is simply God separating from Him those who don't want to be with Him. The person who started this thread is sane. A sane person will expect redemption / rehabilitation for all, including the wicked. But after studying scripture properly we see that God tries all He can to get those in the tribulation to repent, but sadly no avail. If we read revelations, we see plague after plague, the wicked repented not. We see a similar situation with the devil, where Jesus says of him ''he has been sinning since the beginning''. So, the OP may be logical, but clearly more logic and truth needs to be considered. Namely, God judges hearts at depths of intent as only He can Jer 17:9. God does not make the mistake of casting to hell someone who will one-day be able to truly repent / desire repentance! People in hell reject the light because they love the darkness, that is the verdict John 3:19. They will never repent at any significant depth of intent.

2. The darkness in hell is a metaphor for being with evil people / in a place where evil takes place. We see this in John 3:19.

3. I explain here how I believe the fires of hell are linked to sin The fires of hell. They are literal, but a different kind of literal. Ironically, the fires of hell are a testament to the love of God in that He allows the wicked to continue in free will.

4. Weeping and gnashing of teeth is the most miss-quoted phrase on hell in existence. Preachers always link it to the fire of hell. This is terribly false. It is linked to separation from God and the saints Luke 13:28. Those in hell likely look to their side and see un-repentant sinners, they then look up and weep as they see the kindness of God and the saints.

 

[Jesus_is_LORD]

One or two sentences.... .

I believe God is rational and good. The very definition of both words. As such any good person will agree with what God does to those who are eternally damned, even the ''eternal damnation'' part.

We just need to chew / pray for insight on the topic. Many here, like Sue, do simply not do so and end up teaching and preaching that God is wicked.

When exposed they say ''they did not say God is wicked''. If I teach that God does something wicked, I am guilty of representing Him to the lost as wicked. It is just crazy to see Christians not want to face this reality. A Christian has ''one'' job and that is to properly represent God to the lost. When our message is ''repent or burn in torturous fire for all eternity'' we just utterly fail at it.

There is a fre, fact. Eternal hell is called the ''lake of fire''. But we know from Lazarus and the rich man that within Hades there exists a fire different to the one we are familiar with.

So we need to ask the question, how does a good God Psalm 136:1 (fact 1) who is righteous in all His way Psalm 145:17 (fact 2) and is described as light with nor darkness in Him at all 1 John 1:5 (fact 3) keep face with us the saints / be beyond judgement of being wicked when we read scripture like ''1. eternal separation, 2. eternal darkness, 3. eternal fire, 4. weeping and gnashing of teeth''.

Someone like Sue, will just share eternal FIRE with the lost. The poor lost person has nightmares of God placing them in a brazen bull of sort having their flesh burnt off for all eternity. Utter Christianity fail. Epic fail! Cannot fail harder! Need to start at scripture 1. Need to ask God who He is and reset all you have learnt about Him!!

After much study, prayer, meditation on all scripture and in light of the three scriptures / facts I quoted about who God is, the following is evident.

1. Eternal separation is simply God separating from Him those who don't want to be with Him. The person who started this thread is sane. A sane person will expect redemption / rehabilitation for all, including the wicked. But after studying scripture properly we see that God tries all He can to get those in the tribulation to repent, but sadly no avail. If we read revelations, we see plague after plague, the wicked repented not. We see a similar situation with the devil, where Jesus says of him ''he has been sinning since the beginning''. So, the OP may be logical, but clearly more logic and truth needs to be considered. Namely, God judges hearts at depths of intent as only He can Jer 17:9. God does not make the mistake of casting to hell someone who will one-day be able to truly repent / desire repentance! People in hell reject the light because they love the darkness, that is the verdict John 3:19. They will never repent at any significant depth of intent.

2. The darkness in hell is a metaphor for being with evil people / in a place where evil takes place. We see this in John 3:19.

3. I explain here how I believe the fires of hell are linked to sin The fires of hell. They are literal, but a different kind of literal. Ironically, the fires of hell are a testament to the love of God in that He allows the wicked to continue in free will.

4. Weeping and gnashing of teeth is the most miss-quoted phrase on hell in existence. Preachers always link it to the fire of hell. This is terribly false. It is linked to separation from God and the saints Luke 13:28. Those in hell likely look to their side and see un-repentant sinners, they then look up and weep as they see the kindness of God and the saints.

Thanks for sharing your position.

Does he summarize your position accurately @Sue D. ?
If not which part would you correct and what is your position @Sue D.

 

[Sue D.]

Question, so @KingJ and @Sue D.

If you both could summarize your position in 1 sentence or 2 what would it be?

[ I believe that............. ]

I'm trying to see where you two stand and how your positions differ or align.

Thank you.

I also think stating your position as such will help the other person see if they are understanding you clearly or not.

Hi -- I finally relocated 'this' in order to respond. Referring back to the 1st video. Several places in Scripture we are told how to 'be saved'. Well -- do pastors take time to explain what we are being 'saved From' as well as what we're being 'saved To'. Scripture teaches Both heaven And hell. And that the present 'hell' the people who are there now -- will eventually stand before God and then be thrown into the future lake of fire and brimstone. Everyone will eventually be standing before God -- the Great White Throne judgement.

While God Is good -- He is Holy and is Just. He 'would' that All would come to a saving knowledge of Lord Jesus Christ. But -- because He is omniscient -- He is the Only one who knows who will or won't accept His gift of salvation.

And pastors Need to be preaching the entire 'counsel of God'. God is Sovereign -- in control -- but we're not puppets -- we Do have 'free will'. God knows exactly what we're going to do Before we do it. God Also knows that the lake of fire and brimstone is only meant for satan, the beast and the false prophet. Everyone else has a choice to make. To either accept or reject God's plan for our salvation. Because of our sinfulness -- we Deserve hell, but God shows His mercy by providing us with forgiveness through the cross of Christ. The shedding of His blood. But a person Still has to make his/ her decision to accept that gift. Accepting the gift and thanking Him for it. And Then comes the inner peace that everyone is really looking for.

So - yes, pastors Do need to be teaching the existence of hell for non-believers and then 'Death and Hell' being caste into the lake of fire and brimstone.

People tend to only want to hear about the God loves us. And that we Can be in heaven for eternity. And how we Can get there.

Pastors will be held accountable for those they lead astray -- they need to read / study Scripture More than anyone else. They need to tell 'us' to read and study our Bible as well. And to Ask questions.

Summarizing 'positions' in one or two sentences isn't really possible. And I hope I've responded to what you intended us to respond To.

 

[Jesus_is_LORD]

Hi -- I finally relocated 'this' in order to respond. Referring back to the 1st video. Several places in Scripture we are told how to 'be saved'. Well -- do pastors take time to explain what we are being 'saved From' as well as what we're being 'saved To'. Scripture teaches Both heaven And hell. And that the present 'hell' the people who are there now -- will eventually stand before God and then be thrown into the future lake of fire and brimstone. Everyone will eventually be standing before God -- the Great White Throne judgement.

While God Is good -- He is Holy and is Just. He 'would' that All would come to a saving knowledge of Lord Jesus Christ. But -- because He is omniscient -- He is the Only one who knows who will or won't accept His gift of salvation.

And pastors Need to be preaching the entire 'counsel of God'. God is Sovereign -- in control -- but we're not puppets -- we Do have 'free will'. God knows exactly what we're going to do Before we do it. God Also knows that the lake of fire and brimstone is only meant for satan, the beast and the false prophet. Everyone else has a choice to make. To either accept or reject God's plan for our salvation. Because of our sinfulness -- we Deserve hell, but God shows His mercy by providing us with forgiveness through the cross of Christ. The shedding of His blood. But a person Still has to make his/ her decision to accept that gift. Accepting the gift and thanking Him for it. And Then comes the inner peace that everyone is really looking for.

So - yes, pastors Do need to be teaching the existence of hell for non-believers and then 'Death and Hell' being caste into the lake of fire and brimstone.

People tend to only want to hear about the God loves us. And that we Can be in heaven for eternity. And how we Can get there.

Pastors will be held accountable for those they lead astray -- they need to read / study Scripture More than anyone else. They need to tell 'us' to read and study our Bible as well. And to Ask questions.

Summarizing 'positions' in one or two sentences isn't really possible. And I hope I've responded to what you intended us to respond To.

Thanks for sharing @Sue D.

@KingJ you state that you believe @Sue D. thinks God is wicked.

Which words(exact) that @Sue D. wrote gives you that idea?

 

[Sue D.]

If I may interject a further thought. There are those who want to explain away what the lake of fire and brimstone will be. Wanting to sugar-coat it.

God is Not an ogre who delights in 'sending' anyone to eternal hell. A person ends-up there because of the decision made while here on earth.

And no one needs to be in a state of agonizing their eternal 'fate'. A person Can know 'right now' whether they will be spending eternity in heaven or hell. Simply by acknowledging their need 'to be saved'. If a person is convinced that they don't Need to be saved -- that they live a pretty good life --OR they are determined that they Will take responsibility for their own sins and pay the eternal price for it. And I've been around both -- even when sharing Scripture with them, they honestly don't see their need, then there's nothing 'we' can do about it. And I got side-tracked. A person needs to acknowledge their personal need For a Savior. They need to acknowledge that Jesus Christ is the Son of God -- of His death, burial and bodily resurrection on the 3rd day. Belief in your heart and confession with your mouth. And a person can do that / talking to God through Jesus Christ any time, anywhere. / not repeating a prayer after anyone. It's Your personal relationship to God that is being established.

 

[Jesus_is_LORD]

Thanks for sharing @Sue D.

@KingJ you state that you believe @Sue D. thinks God is wicked.

Which words(exact) that @Sue D. wrote gives you that idea?

Furthermore @KingJ , what is your definition of wicked?

 

[KingJ]

Furthermore @KingJ , what is your definition of wicked?

Brazen Bull

 

[KingJ]

If I may interject a further thought. There are those who want to explain away what the lake of fire and brimstone will be. Wanting to sugar-coat it.

There are those who think the fire and brimstone that fell on Sodom is what God will place the wicked in for all eternity. When scripture is clear that God brought a swift destruction on Sodom, there was no delayed burning. There was no ''I will destroy Sodom with fire, slowly, they will burn alive for four months''.

God is Not an ogre who delights in 'sending' anyone to eternal hell. A person ends-up there because of the decision made while here on earth.

So, you just believe He is an 'ogre' in the future when the wicked are at His mercy?

And no one needs to be in a state of agonizing their eternal 'fate'. A person Can know 'right now' whether they will be spending eternity in heaven or hell. Simply by acknowledging their need 'to be saved'. If a person is convinced that they don't Need to be saved -- that they live a pretty good life --OR they are determined that they Will take responsibility for their own sins and pay the eternal price for it. And I've been around both -- even when sharing Scripture with them, they honestly don't see their need, then there's nothing 'we' can do about it. And I got side-tracked. A person needs to acknowledge their personal need For a Savior. They need to acknowledge that Jesus Christ is the Son of God -- of His death, burial and bodily resurrection on the 3rd day. Belief in your heart and confession with your mouth. And a person can do that / talking to God through Jesus Christ any time, anywhere. / not repeating a prayer after anyone. It's Your personal relationship to God that is being established.

Non-sequitur

 

[Sue D.]

@KingJ -- I've never suggested that God is wicked or an ogre.

And there are those who won't accept the fact that Sodom and Gommorah were destroyed because of their open homosexual activity. But, in fact, they were told / warned and then destroyed. God Did choose to reign fire and brimstone down on that city -- those people because of homosexual activity. And at the rate This country is going in that very direction -- we should Also be receiving that treatment.

And That can be seen as an example of what the future lake of fire and brimstone Will be Forever. Except that no one will die -- and remember it's only meant for satan, the beast and the false prophet. Everyone Else has been provided a way to stay out of that Forever. A person simply needs to accept Jesus Christ's shed blood for their sins + nothing. Acknowledge their Need and that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.

Everyone is at the mercy of their choices here on earth.

It's You who thinks that I seem to feel that God is wicked. I would Never say that about God. God tells us about both heaven or hell being in each of our futures. How to be able to stay out of one and how to be able to be in the other.
He, God, is Also the only One who knows who will or won't be in both of those places. It's called omniscience = having all knowledge.

You were asked what your definition of wicked is -- you responded with Brazen Bull in red. Apparently a click into article. Why not just give your definition of wicked.

And what ever the 'non-sequitur' means. I think it's a Latin term? Why not use plain English?! I was simply explaining why no one needs to fear eternity. Be agonizing over their eternal fate.

 

[Jesus_is_LORD]

@KingJ -- I've never suggested that God is wicked or an ogre.



You were asked what your definition of wicked is -- you responded with Brazen Bull in red. Apparently a click into article. Why not just give your definition of wicked.

I was thinking the same thing.

I know some people want you to search for truth instead of just feeding you.
However there is a difference between searching for truth and someone telling me what they believe.

Many people could share a Brazen Bull article and all have different definitions of what wicked means. So
sharing the article, I agree with you @Sue D. does not tell me what your definition is.

Perhaps you are thinking @KingJ that after I read the article the definition of wicked will be made plain.
But that is not the best to assume because we all know that we can share scripture and after reading the same
scripture two people come away with totally different meanings.

So I agree @Sue D. that if one just plainly puts down their definitions it helps for others to see if we are all working with the same terms.
My thoughts are that we are not (working with the same terms)

 

[B-A-C]

Perhaps you are thinking @KingJ that after I read the article the definition of wicked will be made plain.

The article has nothing to do with the Bible. There are no scripture, no verses, nothing to link it to Christianity at all.
There is nothing in the Bible about people being placed inside a bronze bull.
In fact the article says this bull is likely a myth, that may have never existed.
KingJ is placing his whole theology of what is good and evil on a secular article that doesn't even claim
that any of this ever happened.

 

[KingJ]

Perhaps you are thinking @KingJ that after I read the article the definition of wicked will be made plain. But that is not the best to assume because we all know that we can share scripture and after reading the same scripture two people come away with totally different meanings.

I gave you a link to a brazen bull torture device as my definition of wicked.

I am interested, how would you come to a different interpretation of the link? Seeing someone tortured in a brazen bull will make you think of roses and daisies in the field?