Adziilii
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Hell's Population Clock
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Adziilii
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My bad for not giving you a direct answer.
I have no calculated figure for the saved who have passed. But a rough-hewn figure (very rough-hewn) could be obtained by simple arithmetic.
I arbitrarily calculated the "many" to be 51% of the dead over the age of 19 years. If we calculated the "few" to be 49%, we'd come up with 2,564 American adults transferring to paradise every day; and by extrapolation: 58,504 worldwide.
BTW: There's an error in my arithmetic in post #1 but probably doesn't matter seeing as how it's all guess work anyway.
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My bad for not giving you a direct answer.
I have no calculated figure for the saved who have passed. But a rough-hewn figure (very rough-hewn) could be obtained by simple arithmetic.
I arbitrarily calculated the "many" to be 51% of the dead over the age of 19 years. If we calculated the "few" to be 49%, we'd come up with 2,564 American adults transferring to paradise every day; and by extrapolation: 58,504 worldwide.
BTW: There's an error in my arithmetic in post #1 but probably doesn't matter seeing as how it's all guess work anyway.
_
Adziilii
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COMMON ATTITUDE: I'm special; God understands me. Although He probably may not let others off; I'm sure God will make an exception for me because I'm not like other people; I'm different.
RESPONSE: Unfortunately, the Bible's God can't do that. If He were to make exceptions, God would be neither equitable, nor honest-- and worse, it would go against His grain, compromise His integrity, sin against His conscience; and cause Him to lose the world's respect. No, God doesn't grade on a curve: everyone is treated equally in God's courtroom. In a system of divine absolutes; there is neither a curve nor an exception: nobody gets any favors, nobody is special, and nobody is a protected species.
● Deut 10:17 . . Yhvh shows no partiality and accepts no bribes.
● Acts 10:34 . .Then Peter began to speak: I now realize how true it is that God is impartial.
● Rom 2:5-11 . . For there is coming a day of judgment when God, the just judge of all the world, will judge all people according to what they have done. He will give eternal life to those who persist in doing what is good, seeking after the glory and honor and immortality that God offers.
. . . But he will pour out his anger and wrath on those who live for themselves, who refuse to obey the truth; and practice evil deeds. There will be anguish and calamity for everyone who practices evil-- for the Jew first and also for the Gentile. But there will be glory and honor and peace from God for all practice good --for the Jew first and also for the Gentile. For God does not show favoritism.
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COMMON ATTITUDE: I'm special; God understands me. Although He probably may not let others off; I'm sure God will make an exception for me because I'm not like other people; I'm different.
RESPONSE: Unfortunately, the Bible's God can't do that. If He were to make exceptions, God would be neither equitable, nor honest-- and worse, it would go against His grain, compromise His integrity, sin against His conscience; and cause Him to lose the world's respect. No, God doesn't grade on a curve: everyone is treated equally in God's courtroom. In a system of divine absolutes; there is neither a curve nor an exception: nobody gets any favors, nobody is special, and nobody is a protected species.
● Deut 10:17 . . Yhvh shows no partiality and accepts no bribes.
● Acts 10:34 . .Then Peter began to speak: I now realize how true it is that God is impartial.
● Rom 2:5-11 . . For there is coming a day of judgment when God, the just judge of all the world, will judge all people according to what they have done. He will give eternal life to those who persist in doing what is good, seeking after the glory and honor and immortality that God offers.
. . . But he will pour out his anger and wrath on those who live for themselves, who refuse to obey the truth; and practice evil deeds. There will be anguish and calamity for everyone who practices evil-- for the Jew first and also for the Gentile. But there will be glory and honor and peace from God for all practice good --for the Jew first and also for the Gentile. For God does not show favoritism.
_
Adziilii
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Q: Doesn't the Bible say that God's mercy endures forever as per Ps 100:5, Ps 106:1, Ps 107:1, and Ps 118:1, et al?
A: God's mercy is always available; but His good sense knows when to say when. Examples of that are the people swept away by the hand of God in the Flood, and those burned to death by the hand of God in Sodom and Gomorrah; and the firstborn of man and beast slain by the hand of God on Passover night in Egypt.
It's possible to push God too far. For example:
● Hos 4:17 . . Ephraim is joined to idols; let him alone.
In other words: God instructed the prophet Hosea not to bother preaching in Ephraim. They were too far gone.
POP CLOCK UPDATE: 26 days have elapsed since beginning the thread. If the figures in post #1 are in the ball park, then something like 1,521,728 new arrivals have checked into the fiery sector of hades since Aug 11, 2018.
_
Q: Doesn't the Bible say that God's mercy endures forever as per Ps 100:5, Ps 106:1, Ps 107:1, and Ps 118:1, et al?
A: God's mercy is always available; but His good sense knows when to say when. Examples of that are the people swept away by the hand of God in the Flood, and those burned to death by the hand of God in Sodom and Gomorrah; and the firstborn of man and beast slain by the hand of God on Passover night in Egypt.
It's possible to push God too far. For example:
● Hos 4:17 . . Ephraim is joined to idols; let him alone.
In other words: God instructed the prophet Hosea not to bother preaching in Ephraim. They were too far gone.
POP CLOCK UPDATE: 26 days have elapsed since beginning the thread. If the figures in post #1 are in the ball park, then something like 1,521,728 new arrivals have checked into the fiery sector of hades since Aug 11, 2018.
_
Adziilii
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● Jonah 4:9-11 . . God said to Jonah: Do you have a right to be angry about the vine? I do; he said. I am angry enough to die. But the Lord said: You have been concerned about this vine, though you did not tend it or make it grow. It sprang up overnight and died overnight. But Nineveh has more than a hundred and twenty thousand people who cannot tell their right hand from their left, and many cattle as well. Should I not be concerned about that great city?
Had not the adults of Nineveh changed their ways from Jonah's preaching, 120,000 small children would have died through no fault of their own. They would have been collateral damage due to their parents' decadence.
NOTE: Though the city was spared in Jonah's day, a hundred years later in Nahum's day it was destroyed by means of war and conquest; whereby a whole new generation of pre-schoolers died before their time.
Just exactly how God is able to engineer such things is a bit of a mystery; but does make one wonder where else this terrifying work of His goes on. Did God somehow have a hand in the American civil war, and the first and second world wars, and the Holocaust, and in Korea and Vietnam, and in the so-called Arab Spring, and in the pandemics, the ethnic cleansings, ISIS, the housing bubble, and the genocides of the last century, and in natural events like mighty earthquakes, tsunamis, and super storms? I really have to wonder sometimes because Jonah's God is still out there somewhere; and so-called acts of God are still taking young lives.
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● Jonah 4:9-11 . . God said to Jonah: Do you have a right to be angry about the vine? I do; he said. I am angry enough to die. But the Lord said: You have been concerned about this vine, though you did not tend it or make it grow. It sprang up overnight and died overnight. But Nineveh has more than a hundred and twenty thousand people who cannot tell their right hand from their left, and many cattle as well. Should I not be concerned about that great city?
Had not the adults of Nineveh changed their ways from Jonah's preaching, 120,000 small children would have died through no fault of their own. They would have been collateral damage due to their parents' decadence.
NOTE: Though the city was spared in Jonah's day, a hundred years later in Nahum's day it was destroyed by means of war and conquest; whereby a whole new generation of pre-schoolers died before their time.
Just exactly how God is able to engineer such things is a bit of a mystery; but does make one wonder where else this terrifying work of His goes on. Did God somehow have a hand in the American civil war, and the first and second world wars, and the Holocaust, and in Korea and Vietnam, and in the so-called Arab Spring, and in the pandemics, the ethnic cleansings, ISIS, the housing bubble, and the genocides of the last century, and in natural events like mighty earthquakes, tsunamis, and super storms? I really have to wonder sometimes because Jonah's God is still out there somewhere; and so-called acts of God are still taking young lives.
_
KingJ
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Your calculations are off / overstated by 32%. 29% is the estimate of children in the world that are twenty and under. 3% those that are mentally handicapped.
Num 14:29 Your carcases shall fall in this wilderness; and all that were numbered of you, according to your whole number, from twenty years old and upward, which have murmured against me.
But, granted since God is impartial all twenty and under and the mentally handicapped will have their day with the devil. Rev 20:3 speaks to it I believe.
Rev 20:3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
Num 14:29 Your carcases shall fall in this wilderness; and all that were numbered of you, according to your whole number, from twenty years old and upward, which have murmured against me.
But, granted since God is impartial all twenty and under and the mentally handicapped will have their day with the devil. Rev 20:3 speaks to it I believe.
Rev 20:3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
KingJ
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As you said in post 106, God has no joy in taking the lives of children and animals. They are collateral damage of sort. But I do believe God's hand is in 'many' natural disasters.
As for wars, God has always used what is available in order to achieve His will. This of course speaks to our free will and Him honoring it. As such, wars are our doing. God is involved in for example the trial and execution of the cruel, guilty of significant war crimes against humanity after a war. God has always brought death to those whose wickedness is full measure. Any good people who die early, 'gain'. Better to be with God then on earth. God prefers we stay here as long as possible. Meaning the good who die early are victims of free will exercised by the wicked.
It is hard to understand good people dying in a natural disaster. But I guess that is then also evidence of free will exercised in that Adam's sin corrupted the Earth.
I wonder if all over the age of twenty who die are accountable for their evil? If there are more exceptions outside of under twenty and mentally handicapped. God is 100% impartial. Nobody going to heaven has an unfair advantage over someone going to hell.
Maybe this speaks to death bed experiences and the mind of those over twenty being able to make a firm decision to submit to Jesus or reject Him..?? still chewing on this.
Adziilii
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They're off? Really? (chuckle) I thought I made it clear the results are only ball park.
But hey; if you can fine tune my numbers, more power to you.
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Adziilii
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The ordeal that Christ endured on the cross was so brief that it looks like child's play in comparison to the misery of souls in hell. His suffering barely lasted six hours (Mark 15:25, Matt 27:46-50) not even one whole day. People in hell go day, after day, after day, after day, after day, infinitum.
Q: But if Christ suffered only six hours, how can he possibly atone for people facing an eternity in hell?
A: It wasn't his torture that atoned for humanity's sins; it was the loss of his life that did the trick. Christ didn't have to go to the flames himself in order to rescue people from that terrible fate; no, he only had to die in accordance with the law of sin and death.
● Rom 6:23 . .The wages of sin is death
Individual human lives are of such low value that the most that anybody could hope to die for is just one sin. In most cases; that leaves a pretty large balance to atone for. In contrast; the value of the life of God's son is such that his death can atone for an infinite number of everybody's sins.
● 1Pet 1:18-20 . . For you know that God paid a ransom to save you from the empty life you inherited from your ancestors. And the ransom he paid was not mere gold or silver. He paid for you with the precious lifeblood of Christ, the sinless, spotless Lamb of God.
Peter called the blood of Christ two things: a ransom and precious, meaning it's like rare jewels and metals; very pricey. Nobody else's life is nearly as valuable as Christ's life. Peter would never call regular human life rare and pricey. Ordinary human lives are wholesale: they're cheap as the grass (Isa 40:6-7, 1Pet 1:24) just a dime a dozen and quite useless for redemption purposes.
Christ's life is the only life God will accept for multiple sins: and the alternative is infinite punishment because no amount of limited punishment can ever equal the value of Christ's blood because not only is a life like Christ's rare, but his is the only one like it in existence. (cf. Rom 3:9-20, Heb 4:15, 1Pet 2:22, 1John 3:9)
Serial sinners are up a creek with no paddle because they have but two lives to forfeit for sin-- the life they have now, and the one they'll have later at their resurrection; but unfortunately, one of those lives is ear-marked for Adam's sin so they can't use it to atone for any of their own sins. And when they're resurrected to stand trial at the Great White Throne event depicted at Rev 20:11-15; that'll be their last life because according to Dan 12:2 and John 5:28-29 there's only one resurrection allotted per person. And since the Bible's ratio is one life per one sin, then serial sinners will come up short and never have sufficient lives to atone for a lifetime's accumulation of sins.
The dungeons of hell can be compared to a debtor's prison.
● Matt 5:25-26 . .Come to terms quickly with your adversary before it is too late and you are dragged into court, handed over to an officer, and thrown in jail. I assure you that you won't be free again until you have paid the last penny.
The reason that hell is a debtor's prison is because the only payment for one's sins that God will accept is death. Well; it's death for each sin. So if somebody has say, 200 sins to answer for, they'll only be able to pay for one because according to Dan 12:2 & John 5:28-29 there is but one resurrection allotted per person; not 200.
If absolute justice could be satisfied with torture, then hell's inmates could look forward to a release date. But alas; such isn't to happen because the only "coinage" the Bible's God is in a position to accept in lieu of their own lives is His son's life.
Bottom line: Christ's crucifixion is the final option. Those who refuse to take advantage of it, will cross over to the other side in poverty; with literally no way in hell to pay their debts to God; thus they'll be permanently stuck in the wrong place.
POP CLOCK UPDATE: 28 days have elapsed since beginning the thread. If the figures in post #1 are in the ball park, then something like 1,638,784 new arrivals have checked into the fiery sector of hades since Aug 11, 2018.
_
The ordeal that Christ endured on the cross was so brief that it looks like child's play in comparison to the misery of souls in hell. His suffering barely lasted six hours (Mark 15:25, Matt 27:46-50) not even one whole day. People in hell go day, after day, after day, after day, after day, infinitum.
Q: But if Christ suffered only six hours, how can he possibly atone for people facing an eternity in hell?
A: It wasn't his torture that atoned for humanity's sins; it was the loss of his life that did the trick. Christ didn't have to go to the flames himself in order to rescue people from that terrible fate; no, he only had to die in accordance with the law of sin and death.
● Rom 6:23 . .The wages of sin is death
Individual human lives are of such low value that the most that anybody could hope to die for is just one sin. In most cases; that leaves a pretty large balance to atone for. In contrast; the value of the life of God's son is such that his death can atone for an infinite number of everybody's sins.
● 1Pet 1:18-20 . . For you know that God paid a ransom to save you from the empty life you inherited from your ancestors. And the ransom he paid was not mere gold or silver. He paid for you with the precious lifeblood of Christ, the sinless, spotless Lamb of God.
Peter called the blood of Christ two things: a ransom and precious, meaning it's like rare jewels and metals; very pricey. Nobody else's life is nearly as valuable as Christ's life. Peter would never call regular human life rare and pricey. Ordinary human lives are wholesale: they're cheap as the grass (Isa 40:6-7, 1Pet 1:24) just a dime a dozen and quite useless for redemption purposes.
Christ's life is the only life God will accept for multiple sins: and the alternative is infinite punishment because no amount of limited punishment can ever equal the value of Christ's blood because not only is a life like Christ's rare, but his is the only one like it in existence. (cf. Rom 3:9-20, Heb 4:15, 1Pet 2:22, 1John 3:9)
Serial sinners are up a creek with no paddle because they have but two lives to forfeit for sin-- the life they have now, and the one they'll have later at their resurrection; but unfortunately, one of those lives is ear-marked for Adam's sin so they can't use it to atone for any of their own sins. And when they're resurrected to stand trial at the Great White Throne event depicted at Rev 20:11-15; that'll be their last life because according to Dan 12:2 and John 5:28-29 there's only one resurrection allotted per person. And since the Bible's ratio is one life per one sin, then serial sinners will come up short and never have sufficient lives to atone for a lifetime's accumulation of sins.
The dungeons of hell can be compared to a debtor's prison.
● Matt 5:25-26 . .Come to terms quickly with your adversary before it is too late and you are dragged into court, handed over to an officer, and thrown in jail. I assure you that you won't be free again until you have paid the last penny.
The reason that hell is a debtor's prison is because the only payment for one's sins that God will accept is death. Well; it's death for each sin. So if somebody has say, 200 sins to answer for, they'll only be able to pay for one because according to Dan 12:2 & John 5:28-29 there is but one resurrection allotted per person; not 200.
If absolute justice could be satisfied with torture, then hell's inmates could look forward to a release date. But alas; such isn't to happen because the only "coinage" the Bible's God is in a position to accept in lieu of their own lives is His son's life.
Bottom line: Christ's crucifixion is the final option. Those who refuse to take advantage of it, will cross over to the other side in poverty; with literally no way in hell to pay their debts to God; thus they'll be permanently stuck in the wrong place.
POP CLOCK UPDATE: 28 days have elapsed since beginning the thread. If the figures in post #1 are in the ball park, then something like 1,638,784 new arrivals have checked into the fiery sector of hades since Aug 11, 2018.
_
Adziilii
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● Matt 10:28 . . Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul; but rather fear Him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
Q: If somebody is already dead, then how can hell kill their body?
A: The current hell doesn't kill the human body because for now when people die, their bodies stay here rather than going there. But out ahead in the future; people in the current hell will be resurrected to face justice at the Great White Throne event depicted at Rev 20:11-15. It is then when people's bodies will be terminated by yet another hell; and since there is but one resurrection allotted per person (Dan 12:2, John 5:28-29) then nobody is ever coming back from that hell.
OBJECTION: The final hell is depicted as a lake of fire (Rev 20:11-15). Sorry; but it's impossible to liquefy flame
RESPONSE: It's also impossible to inundate the entire planet with a global flood. However, according to Rev 20:10 and Rev 21:8, the lake consists of not only fire; but also a substance called brimstone; which Webster's defines as sulfur.
Sulfur melts at 232.36º F and boils at 832.28º F. If sulfur's temperature is maintained in that range; it could easily suffice for an impoundment consisting of both flame and liquid.
Q: What's to prevent the lake's fire from consuming the sulfur?
A: The presence of fire doesn't always indicate combustion; for example the flames in Moses' bush were non consuming. (Ex 3:1-3). I think it's safe to assume that the fire related to the lake of fire is for heating rather than incinerating.
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● Matt 10:28 . . Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul; but rather fear Him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
Q: If somebody is already dead, then how can hell kill their body?
A: The current hell doesn't kill the human body because for now when people die, their bodies stay here rather than going there. But out ahead in the future; people in the current hell will be resurrected to face justice at the Great White Throne event depicted at Rev 20:11-15. It is then when people's bodies will be terminated by yet another hell; and since there is but one resurrection allotted per person (Dan 12:2, John 5:28-29) then nobody is ever coming back from that hell.
OBJECTION: The final hell is depicted as a lake of fire (Rev 20:11-15). Sorry; but it's impossible to liquefy flame
RESPONSE: It's also impossible to inundate the entire planet with a global flood. However, according to Rev 20:10 and Rev 21:8, the lake consists of not only fire; but also a substance called brimstone; which Webster's defines as sulfur.
Sulfur melts at 232.36º F and boils at 832.28º F. If sulfur's temperature is maintained in that range; it could easily suffice for an impoundment consisting of both flame and liquid.
Q: What's to prevent the lake's fire from consuming the sulfur?
A: The presence of fire doesn't always indicate combustion; for example the flames in Moses' bush were non consuming. (Ex 3:1-3). I think it's safe to assume that the fire related to the lake of fire is for heating rather than incinerating.
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Adziilii
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Q: Do you not know it is the kindness of God that leads men to repentance rather than threats of justice? (Rom 2:4)
A: If the Bible's God weren't so kind, then He wouldn't bother with giving His creatures advance notice of the horror in store for them in the afterlife.
● Luke 12:4-5 . . And I say unto you my friends; Be not afraid of them that kill the body, and after that have no more that they can do. But I will forewarn you whom ye shall fear: Fear Him, which after He hath killed hath power to cast into Hell; yea, I say unto you fear Him.
Was Christ wrong to instill a fear of God within people's hearts? No; I think he was 110% justified. For example: when I was working as a professional welder for the US Army Corps of Engineers, we had weekly and monthly safety meetings wherein we were shown some grisly photographs of real life industrial accidents involving burns, chain saws, punctured eyes, explosions, falls, crane collapses, suffocation, crushing, and the like. Let me tell you something: those safety meetings got our attention, and really made a sharp distinction between the fool and the wise.
● Prv 22:3 . . A prudent person foresees the danger ahead and takes precautions; the simpleton goes blindly on and suffers the consequences.
The kindness of God has given the world fair and adequate notice of what to expect in the afterlife. Those who don't care about it one way or the other would be well advised to use what time they have remaining to begin preparing themselves for the worst when they cross over to the other side.
POP CLOCK UPDATE: 30 days have elapsed since beginning the thread. If the figures in post #1 are in the ball park, then something like 1,755,840 new arrivals have checked into the fiery sector of hades since Aug 11, 2018.
_
Q: Do you not know it is the kindness of God that leads men to repentance rather than threats of justice? (Rom 2:4)
A: If the Bible's God weren't so kind, then He wouldn't bother with giving His creatures advance notice of the horror in store for them in the afterlife.
● Luke 12:4-5 . . And I say unto you my friends; Be not afraid of them that kill the body, and after that have no more that they can do. But I will forewarn you whom ye shall fear: Fear Him, which after He hath killed hath power to cast into Hell; yea, I say unto you fear Him.
Was Christ wrong to instill a fear of God within people's hearts? No; I think he was 110% justified. For example: when I was working as a professional welder for the US Army Corps of Engineers, we had weekly and monthly safety meetings wherein we were shown some grisly photographs of real life industrial accidents involving burns, chain saws, punctured eyes, explosions, falls, crane collapses, suffocation, crushing, and the like. Let me tell you something: those safety meetings got our attention, and really made a sharp distinction between the fool and the wise.
● Prv 22:3 . . A prudent person foresees the danger ahead and takes precautions; the simpleton goes blindly on and suffers the consequences.
The kindness of God has given the world fair and adequate notice of what to expect in the afterlife. Those who don't care about it one way or the other would be well advised to use what time they have remaining to begin preparing themselves for the worst when they cross over to the other side.
POP CLOCK UPDATE: 30 days have elapsed since beginning the thread. If the figures in post #1 are in the ball park, then something like 1,755,840 new arrivals have checked into the fiery sector of hades since Aug 11, 2018.
_
Adziilii
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Q: According to the Bible thumpers; it is a "must" to believe in Christ's gospel in order to be spared the wrath of God. How is that fair for peoples of the world who were never afforded an opportunity to hear it?
A: In April of 2018, I watched a movie on NetFlix called "Come Sunday" based upon the spiritual career of a Christian minister named Carlton D'metrius Pearson, DD.
Mr. Pearson underwent a crisis of faith due to pondering the fate of the millions of people in the world perishing in genocides, civil wars, and whatnot who never heard, nor ever would hear, Christ's gospel. It seemed thoroughly unreasonable to him that a reputedly merciful, loving God would condemn so many uninformed people to hell just because they didn't believe in a Jesus about whom many of them likely knew nothing about.
Mr. Pearson's solution to the problem was to simply do away with hell by insisting that classical Christianity's interpretation of the New Testament is incorrect; which is remarkable seeing as how he attended Oral Roberts University and was mentored by Oral Roberts himself.
The fate of the uninformed is a mystery that has been the subject of many years of unresolved debating. People on both sides of the aisle entertain strong personal feelings about it, and both sides field very convincing arguments; but the fact of the matter is: nobody really knows for certain.
On the other hand, the fate of people in the know is as clear and simple as 2 plus 2 equals 4.
● John 3:18 . .Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son.
The focus in that passage is belief and unbelief. In other words: real unbelievers aren't people who've never heard Christ's gospel. The real unbelievers are people who've heard and failed to take him seriously. Those people's fate isn't debatable; in point of fact, it's already sealed-- no delay and no waiting period.
I've heard more than one preacher say that they'd rather be a primitive man living in the deepest, darkest, unexplored regions of the Amazon than a modern sophisticate who has heard Christ's gospel and failed to take it seriously.
● Luke 12:47-48 . .That servant who knew his master's will and did not get ready, or act in accord with his will, shall receive many lashes, but the one who did not know it, and committed deeds worthy of a flogging, will receive but few. And from everyone who has been given much shall much be required; and to whom they entrusted much, of him they will ask all the more.
NOTE: In the movie; Mr. Pearson asks the question: Are we more merciful than God? Well; yes, of course we are. Humanity grants itself the liberty to circumvent justice; but God can't do that. In point of fact, were God at liberty to circumvent justice, then Christ' crucifixion was needless.
PS: I won't hazard to guess what's to eventually become of Mr. Pearson, but Paul commanded his friends in Galatia to regard people that preach a revised version of Christ's gospel as accursed. (Gal 1:6-9)
_
Q: According to the Bible thumpers; it is a "must" to believe in Christ's gospel in order to be spared the wrath of God. How is that fair for peoples of the world who were never afforded an opportunity to hear it?
A: In April of 2018, I watched a movie on NetFlix called "Come Sunday" based upon the spiritual career of a Christian minister named Carlton D'metrius Pearson, DD.
Mr. Pearson underwent a crisis of faith due to pondering the fate of the millions of people in the world perishing in genocides, civil wars, and whatnot who never heard, nor ever would hear, Christ's gospel. It seemed thoroughly unreasonable to him that a reputedly merciful, loving God would condemn so many uninformed people to hell just because they didn't believe in a Jesus about whom many of them likely knew nothing about.
Mr. Pearson's solution to the problem was to simply do away with hell by insisting that classical Christianity's interpretation of the New Testament is incorrect; which is remarkable seeing as how he attended Oral Roberts University and was mentored by Oral Roberts himself.
The fate of the uninformed is a mystery that has been the subject of many years of unresolved debating. People on both sides of the aisle entertain strong personal feelings about it, and both sides field very convincing arguments; but the fact of the matter is: nobody really knows for certain.
On the other hand, the fate of people in the know is as clear and simple as 2 plus 2 equals 4.
● John 3:18 . .Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son.
The focus in that passage is belief and unbelief. In other words: real unbelievers aren't people who've never heard Christ's gospel. The real unbelievers are people who've heard and failed to take him seriously. Those people's fate isn't debatable; in point of fact, it's already sealed-- no delay and no waiting period.
I've heard more than one preacher say that they'd rather be a primitive man living in the deepest, darkest, unexplored regions of the Amazon than a modern sophisticate who has heard Christ's gospel and failed to take it seriously.
● Luke 12:47-48 . .That servant who knew his master's will and did not get ready, or act in accord with his will, shall receive many lashes, but the one who did not know it, and committed deeds worthy of a flogging, will receive but few. And from everyone who has been given much shall much be required; and to whom they entrusted much, of him they will ask all the more.
NOTE: In the movie; Mr. Pearson asks the question: Are we more merciful than God? Well; yes, of course we are. Humanity grants itself the liberty to circumvent justice; but God can't do that. In point of fact, were God at liberty to circumvent justice, then Christ' crucifixion was needless.
PS: I won't hazard to guess what's to eventually become of Mr. Pearson, but Paul commanded his friends in Galatia to regard people that preach a revised version of Christ's gospel as accursed. (Gal 1:6-9)
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Adziilii
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Heaven is sometimes depicted as a mountain with any number of roads around the base heading towards the top. Well; classical Christianity accepts only one of those roads reaches the top; viz: the rest are dead-ends, loops, terraces, circles, and cul-de-sacs, i.e. no outlets and nowhere to go except round and around or back down the mountain.
Hell is depicted as a colossal pit, deep and wide, with many roads around the rim heading towards the bottom. Well; classical Christianity accepts that every one of those roads eventually merge into one big super expressway to the bottom.
● Matt 7:13-14 . . Wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.
How many people of all ages, races, and genders does the quantity "many" represent? Well, according to my sources there are approximately:
50 thousand Scientologists
15 million Mormons
8.2 million Jehovah's Witnesses
7.8 million Baha'i
515.9 million Buddhists
451.3 million Chinese Folk Religionists
8.4 million Confucianists
258.5 million Ethnic Religionists
974.6 million Hindus
5.6 million Jains
1.7 billion Muslims
14.1 million Jews
64.2 million New Religionists
2.8 million Shintoists
24.9 million Sikhs
14.2 million Spiritists
8.7 million Taoists
1.1 billion Atheists/Agnostics
The grand total of just those categories is 5,174,700,000
If those figures are in the ball park, and if classical Christianity is the truth; then at least 69% of the earth's current population of 7.498 billion people are on a road to hell; and no doubt some of those are people we know: our friends, our relatives, and our associates.
NOTE: Jehovah's Witnesses and Mormons are Christians in accordance with Webster's definition; but not in the classical sense.
Joseph Smith's movement is a variation; in other words: there's some classical Christianity in Mormonism, but classical Christianity comprises only a portion of Mormonism. The rest of it is extreme, to say the least.
Neither do Jehovah's Witnesses qualify as Christians in the classical sense. Charles Taze Russell's movement is a variation too. There's some classical Christianity in the Watchtower Society's doctrines, but classical Christianity comprises only a portion of Russell's doctrines; and his slant on it is very peculiar.
POP CLOCK UPDATE: 32 days have elapsed since beginning the thread. If the figures in post #1 are in the ball park, then something like 1,872,896 new arrivals have checked into the fiery sector of hades since Aug 11, 2018.
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Heaven is sometimes depicted as a mountain with any number of roads around the base heading towards the top. Well; classical Christianity accepts only one of those roads reaches the top; viz: the rest are dead-ends, loops, terraces, circles, and cul-de-sacs, i.e. no outlets and nowhere to go except round and around or back down the mountain.
Hell is depicted as a colossal pit, deep and wide, with many roads around the rim heading towards the bottom. Well; classical Christianity accepts that every one of those roads eventually merge into one big super expressway to the bottom.
● Matt 7:13-14 . . Wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.
How many people of all ages, races, and genders does the quantity "many" represent? Well, according to my sources there are approximately:
50 thousand Scientologists
15 million Mormons
8.2 million Jehovah's Witnesses
7.8 million Baha'i
515.9 million Buddhists
451.3 million Chinese Folk Religionists
8.4 million Confucianists
258.5 million Ethnic Religionists
974.6 million Hindus
5.6 million Jains
1.7 billion Muslims
14.1 million Jews
64.2 million New Religionists
2.8 million Shintoists
24.9 million Sikhs
14.2 million Spiritists
8.7 million Taoists
1.1 billion Atheists/Agnostics
The grand total of just those categories is 5,174,700,000
If those figures are in the ball park, and if classical Christianity is the truth; then at least 69% of the earth's current population of 7.498 billion people are on a road to hell; and no doubt some of those are people we know: our friends, our relatives, and our associates.
NOTE: Jehovah's Witnesses and Mormons are Christians in accordance with Webster's definition; but not in the classical sense.
Joseph Smith's movement is a variation; in other words: there's some classical Christianity in Mormonism, but classical Christianity comprises only a portion of Mormonism. The rest of it is extreme, to say the least.
Neither do Jehovah's Witnesses qualify as Christians in the classical sense. Charles Taze Russell's movement is a variation too. There's some classical Christianity in the Watchtower Society's doctrines, but classical Christianity comprises only a portion of Russell's doctrines; and his slant on it is very peculiar.
POP CLOCK UPDATE: 32 days have elapsed since beginning the thread. If the figures in post #1 are in the ball park, then something like 1,872,896 new arrivals have checked into the fiery sector of hades since Aug 11, 2018.
_
Adziilii
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● Matt 5:9 . . Blessed are the peacemakers, for they shall be called sons of God.
Peace is actually one of the negative aspects of heaven because peace is not ideal for people who thrive in a society where behaviors like the ones listed below are the norm,
Discord, hatred, factions, cliques, mistrust, prejudice, bias, caste systems, double standards, partiality, favoritism, deceit, surmising, dishonesty, gossip, slander, sarcasm, cynicism, ridicule, envy, rivalry, resentment, avarice, greed, gossip, character assassination, kangaroo courts, complaining, tattling, meddling, confrontations, activism, quarrels, assertiveness, heated debates, chafing, trickery, grudging, stonewalling, bitterness, silent treatments,
. . . revenge, stubbornness, cold shouldering, snobbery, egotism, dominance, demeaning comments, pecking orders, rebellion, arrogance, attitudes, subterfuge, treachery, betrayal, suspicion, conceit, vanity, superiority complexes, depression, melancholy, panic attacks, bi-polar disorders, antisocial behaviors, sociopaths, crime, war, despotism, oppression, injustice, human rights abuses, character assassination, toxic rejoinders, smart-Alek retorts, snide remarks, etc, etc, et al, and ad nausea.
In addition; there are stand-up fighters for whom every disagreement is either an insult or an act of war. And when they're angry, they just have to give you a piece of their mind. Those people would really be a fish out of water in heaven.
I've heard it said that heaven is a place prepared for a prepared people; i.e. people conditioned for heaven; viz: undergone changes and/or modifications so as to make them suitable for heaven. People whose personalities are by nature detrimental to peace are going to miss the boat if they cross over to the next life in that condition.
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● Matt 5:9 . . Blessed are the peacemakers, for they shall be called sons of God.
Peace is actually one of the negative aspects of heaven because peace is not ideal for people who thrive in a society where behaviors like the ones listed below are the norm,
Discord, hatred, factions, cliques, mistrust, prejudice, bias, caste systems, double standards, partiality, favoritism, deceit, surmising, dishonesty, gossip, slander, sarcasm, cynicism, ridicule, envy, rivalry, resentment, avarice, greed, gossip, character assassination, kangaroo courts, complaining, tattling, meddling, confrontations, activism, quarrels, assertiveness, heated debates, chafing, trickery, grudging, stonewalling, bitterness, silent treatments,
. . . revenge, stubbornness, cold shouldering, snobbery, egotism, dominance, demeaning comments, pecking orders, rebellion, arrogance, attitudes, subterfuge, treachery, betrayal, suspicion, conceit, vanity, superiority complexes, depression, melancholy, panic attacks, bi-polar disorders, antisocial behaviors, sociopaths, crime, war, despotism, oppression, injustice, human rights abuses, character assassination, toxic rejoinders, smart-Alek retorts, snide remarks, etc, etc, et al, and ad nausea.
In addition; there are stand-up fighters for whom every disagreement is either an insult or an act of war. And when they're angry, they just have to give you a piece of their mind. Those people would really be a fish out of water in heaven.
I've heard it said that heaven is a place prepared for a prepared people; i.e. people conditioned for heaven; viz: undergone changes and/or modifications so as to make them suitable for heaven. People whose personalities are by nature detrimental to peace are going to miss the boat if they cross over to the next life in that condition.
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Adziilii
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It's easy to assume that only really bad people are in hell. But according to Matt 7:23-27, John 3:3-8, John 3:14-20, John 3:36, and Rev 20:11-15, anybody can be there; both the good, the bad, and the not so bad-- bikers, bakers, lawyers, welders, actors and actresses, housewives, bankers, heavy equipment operators, loggers, convicts, celebrities, homeless bums, clergy, prostitutes, drug lords, postmen, Presidents, Kings,
. . . statesmen, astronauts, school teachers, scientists, nurses, doctors, chemists, machinists, carpenters, waiters, hotel managers, cops, judges, nuns, priests, Popes, deacons, salesmen, Miss Americas, news anchors, weathermen, and birdwatchers, et al --people from every walk, every career, every religion, every culture, every language, every ethnic, every craft, and every status: they're all in danger of the sum of all fears.
● Rev 20:12 . . I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened.
Because when you strip away their gender, their titles, their distinctions, their privileges, and their entitlements; and stand them before God naked; people are only flesh and blood creatures-- naked apes, just human beings; and human beings are intrinsically sinful beings whether inbred or bred to perfection.
● Gen 8:21 . . Man's thoughts and actions are bent toward evil from childhood.
● Ps 58:3 . . Even from birth the wicked go astray; from the womb they are wayward and speak lies.
● Eph 2:3 . .We were by nature objects of wrath.
POP CLOCK UPDATE: 34 days have elapsed since beginning the thread. If the figures in post #1 are in the ball park, then something like 1,989,952 new arrivals have checked into the fiery sector of hades since Aug 11, 2018.
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It's easy to assume that only really bad people are in hell. But according to Matt 7:23-27, John 3:3-8, John 3:14-20, John 3:36, and Rev 20:11-15, anybody can be there; both the good, the bad, and the not so bad-- bikers, bakers, lawyers, welders, actors and actresses, housewives, bankers, heavy equipment operators, loggers, convicts, celebrities, homeless bums, clergy, prostitutes, drug lords, postmen, Presidents, Kings,
. . . statesmen, astronauts, school teachers, scientists, nurses, doctors, chemists, machinists, carpenters, waiters, hotel managers, cops, judges, nuns, priests, Popes, deacons, salesmen, Miss Americas, news anchors, weathermen, and birdwatchers, et al --people from every walk, every career, every religion, every culture, every language, every ethnic, every craft, and every status: they're all in danger of the sum of all fears.
● Rev 20:12 . . I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened.
Because when you strip away their gender, their titles, their distinctions, their privileges, and their entitlements; and stand them before God naked; people are only flesh and blood creatures-- naked apes, just human beings; and human beings are intrinsically sinful beings whether inbred or bred to perfection.
● Gen 8:21 . . Man's thoughts and actions are bent toward evil from childhood.
● Ps 58:3 . . Even from birth the wicked go astray; from the womb they are wayward and speak lies.
● Eph 2:3 . .We were by nature objects of wrath.
POP CLOCK UPDATE: 34 days have elapsed since beginning the thread. If the figures in post #1 are in the ball park, then something like 1,989,952 new arrivals have checked into the fiery sector of hades since Aug 11, 2018.
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KingJ
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I completely disagree with the line ''anybody can be there; both the good, the bad, and the not so bad'' . Only the wicked go to hell. Not sure if you read your post properly before you posted it as I have agreed with everything you have been writing.
John 3:19 This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but people loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil. Those who love the darkness, reject the light and will be in hell. Loving the darkness speaks to being sold out to sin. A wicked person.
Regarding your verses used as support.
1. Matt 7:23-27 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock: And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock. And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand: And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.
The context to ''I never knew you'' is in verse 22. It is men who do great works to be seen of others. They cast out demons, heal the sick and prophecy all for their own glory. Jesus would never say this of people following James 1:27 Religion undefiled is to help orphans and widows in need.
''And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not''. Only the wicked would not ''turn the left cheek, love their enemy, pray to God, repent''.
2. John 3:3-8 ''Very truly I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of water and the Spirit. Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit. ''.
A wicked person will not repent and accept being baptized publicly for Jesus. If he does, God sees it as a swim and words with no meaning. There will be no Holy Spirit baptism for any wicked. Only those who truly let Jesus in. Truly repent. Will be baptized into the Holy Spirit.
3. John 3:14-20 &3 36 summed up into ''That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life''. Nobody can just believe Jesus is God. Peter was a disciple, chosen to be an apostle. He walked on water. But yet He needed God to give him a revelation of who Jesus was. This happens in Matt 16:16-17. Without this revelation from God, nobody can truly believe in Jesus as Lord unto salvation. They can probably believe there was a man who impacted the world called Jesus and ponder if He was more then a man based on His followers. But, 'knowing' this man was God of the universe? This man being able to save us from death? This man being able to unite us with God for eternity? This man risen from the dead? Impossible for Peter. Impossible for any other. 1 Cor 12:3 ''nobody can call Jesus Lord, except by the Holy Spirit''.
4. Rev 20:11-15 Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. The earth and the heavens fled from his presence, and there was no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. 13 The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what they had done. 14 Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. 15 Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire.
'' Judged according to what they have done''. Punishment for wickedness.
''Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire''. Only those sold out to wickedness have their name removed.
Adziilii
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After reading my post as per your suggestion; I realized it could be improved with an additional category so it looks like this:
"the good, the not so good, the bad, and the not so bad"
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After reading my post as per your suggestion; I realized it could be improved with an additional category so it looks like this:
"the good, the not so good, the bad, and the not so bad"
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Adziilii
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People tend to avoid thinking about the hereafter. Thus they become like a frog boiled to death by starting it out in cold water.
● Ecc 11:9 . . Rejoice, young man, during your childhood, and let your heart be pleasant during the days of young manhood. And follow the impulses of your heart and the desires of your eyes. Yet know that God will bring you to judgment for all these things.
Solomon may not have been 100% right about everything, but he was sure right about that.
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People tend to avoid thinking about the hereafter. Thus they become like a frog boiled to death by starting it out in cold water.
● Ecc 11:9 . . Rejoice, young man, during your childhood, and let your heart be pleasant during the days of young manhood. And follow the impulses of your heart and the desires of your eyes. Yet know that God will bring you to judgment for all these things.
Solomon may not have been 100% right about everything, but he was sure right about that.
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Adziilii
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OBJECTION: Christ is compassionate and would never run an eternal torture mill for his lost sheep.
RESPONSE: Christ doesn't have any lost sheep. All the sheep that God entrusted to His son's care are safe and sound.
● John 10:9 . . I am the gate; whoever enters through me shall be saved.
Were Christ a so-so shepherd; then he wouldn't dare say "shall be" saved; no, he'd have to tone it down a bit and say "can be" saved. That would leave him some room for error. But when Christ says "shall be" he's claiming a 0.0% failure rate.
● John 10:27-28 . . My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: and I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
OBJECTION: Christ's sheep are not all "safe and sound", no; not when they have the free will to pluck themselves out of his hand.
RESPONSE: The Father's free will trumps the sheep's free will.
● John 6:39 . .This is the will of the one who sent me; that I should not lose anything of what He gave me.
Christ's sheep are among the things that God has given him (John 10:27-30).
So then, were Christ to lose even one of those sheep, he would disappoint the one who sent him. But Christ never fails to satisfy his Father's will.
● John 8:29 . .The one who sent me is with me. He has not left me alone, because I always do what is pleasing to Him.
Were Christ to lose even one of the sheep in his care, he wouldn't be able to say that he "always" does what is pleasing to Him.
FYI: Not all sheep are Christ's sheep; only his believing followers qualify.
● Eph 1:13 . . And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit
Disbelievers are not sealed; no, their neck is in a noose.
● John 3:18 . . He who believes in him is not condemned; but he who disbelieves is condemned already.
When people say that it's possible for Jesus to lose sheep; they are actually casting a vote of no-confidence in his claim to be the good shepherd. In their mind's eye, he's not an exceptional shepherd; he's just another run-of-the-mill cowpoke.
POP CLOCK UPDATE: 36 days have elapsed since beginning the thread. If the figures in post #1 are in the ball park, then something like 2,107,008 new arrivals have checked into the fiery sector of hades since Aug 11, 2018.
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OBJECTION: Christ is compassionate and would never run an eternal torture mill for his lost sheep.
RESPONSE: Christ doesn't have any lost sheep. All the sheep that God entrusted to His son's care are safe and sound.
● John 10:9 . . I am the gate; whoever enters through me shall be saved.
Were Christ a so-so shepherd; then he wouldn't dare say "shall be" saved; no, he'd have to tone it down a bit and say "can be" saved. That would leave him some room for error. But when Christ says "shall be" he's claiming a 0.0% failure rate.
● John 10:27-28 . . My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: and I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
OBJECTION: Christ's sheep are not all "safe and sound", no; not when they have the free will to pluck themselves out of his hand.
RESPONSE: The Father's free will trumps the sheep's free will.
● John 6:39 . .This is the will of the one who sent me; that I should not lose anything of what He gave me.
Christ's sheep are among the things that God has given him (John 10:27-30).
So then, were Christ to lose even one of those sheep, he would disappoint the one who sent him. But Christ never fails to satisfy his Father's will.
● John 8:29 . .The one who sent me is with me. He has not left me alone, because I always do what is pleasing to Him.
Were Christ to lose even one of the sheep in his care, he wouldn't be able to say that he "always" does what is pleasing to Him.
FYI: Not all sheep are Christ's sheep; only his believing followers qualify.
● Eph 1:13 . . And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit
Disbelievers are not sealed; no, their neck is in a noose.
● John 3:18 . . He who believes in him is not condemned; but he who disbelieves is condemned already.
When people say that it's possible for Jesus to lose sheep; they are actually casting a vote of no-confidence in his claim to be the good shepherd. In their mind's eye, he's not an exceptional shepherd; he's just another run-of-the-mill cowpoke.
POP CLOCK UPDATE: 36 days have elapsed since beginning the thread. If the figures in post #1 are in the ball park, then something like 2,107,008 new arrivals have checked into the fiery sector of hades since Aug 11, 2018.
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