How is a man saved??

[Samson2020]

How is a man saved?

There seems to be some misunderstanding amongst some of us as this issue keeps coming up in various threads so lets hash it out.

Is it not an election according to grace? Rom 11:5
Eph 2:8-9
For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God. Not of works lest any man should boast.

Ok so whether you want to say that the gift is grace or the faith is the gift or both or that salvation itself, being the end result, is the gift.
This is how a man is saved. Grace bestowed to believe by faith which is also given. So all the above grace, faith, and salvation gifts.
So salvation is as the verse says a gift.
Now is the gift according to anything that a man does or doesn't do?
No for a man is not allowed to boast as verse 9 states it is entirely Gods gift as 8 states.
And as it is a gift from God can it be taken away?
No because the gifts and the calling of God are without repentance. Rom 11:29

How does God decide which human He is going to gift salvation to?
The Bible tells us plainly that it is for those, in this dispensation, for whom He predestined to be saved in it. Rom 8:29-30 Eph 1:5 Eph 1:11
So as the election is according to grace and for those predestinated and has nothing to do with a mans desires or works what could it be called other than a gift?

Can we earn it? NO
Can we ask for it? Sure but unless you were predestinated as the scripture states you'll have to wait until it is your time.
Can we beg for it? Sure, but same answer as above.
What can we do to speed up the election of ourselves? Nothing because it is all in Gods good timing, since it is His gift to you, you will receive it when He gives it
to you.
Can you refuse it, sure but its still yours as He will never repent of giving it to you. You may end up as one of the least of His sons but its still yours.

Are many at this time deceived into thinking they have been born again but are still spiritually dead? Absolutely, this is one of the biggest deceptions I see.
And they are very busy at creating more of the same. Spiritually dead and in name only Christians.

If you see salvation as anything other than a gift that cannot be earned tell us here what your concept of "how a man is saved" is.

 

[Curtis]

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Eph 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Any person or all who are or have been saved are saved strictly by "grace" alone.

Grace is God doing or giving something to a person who does not deserve it.
No one is saved strictly by "faith" alone because faith has "works" associated with it.

Eph 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Grace is useless unless a person can gain "access" to Grace by which they can be saved.

Faith is the key to gaining "access" to grace so a person can be saved.

Rom 5:1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:
Rom 5:2 By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.

Deciding not to use faith when given makes faith dead (useless) to the person who has it. Faith without works is dead.

 

[Charlie24]

How is a man saved?

There seems to be some misunderstanding amongst some of us as this issue keeps coming up in various threads so lets hash it out.

Is it not an election according to grace? Rom 11:5
Eph 2:8-9
For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God. Not of works lest any man should boast.

Ok so whether you want to say that the gift is grace or the faith is the gift or both or that salvation itself, being the end result, is the gift.
This is how a man is saved. Grace bestowed to believe by faith which is also given. So all the above grace, faith, and salvation gifts.
So salvation is as the verse says a gift.
Now is the gift according to anything that a man does or doesn't do?
No for a man is not allowed to boast as verse 9 states it is entirely Gods gift as 8 states.
And as it is a gift from God can it be taken away?
No because the gifts and the calling of God are without repentance. Rom 11:29

How does God decide which human He is going to gift salvation to?
The Bible tells us plainly that it is for those, in this dispensation, for whom He predestined to be saved in it. Rom 8:29-30 Eph 1:5 Eph 1:11
So as the election is according to grace and for those predestinated and has nothing to do with a mans desires or works what could it be called other than a gift?

Can we earn it? NO
Can we ask for it? Sure but unless you were predestinated as the scripture states you'll have to wait until it is your time.
Can we beg for it? Sure, but same answer as above.
What can we do to speed up the election of ourselves? Nothing because it is all in Gods good timing, since it is His gift to you, you will receive it when He gives it
to you.
Can you refuse it, sure but its still yours as He will never repent of giving it to you. You may end up as one of the least of His sons but its still yours.

Are many at this time deceived into thinking they have been born again but are still spiritually dead? Absolutely, this is one of the biggest deceptions I see.
And they are very busy at creating more of the same. Spiritually dead and in name only Christians.

If you see salvation as anything other than a gift that cannot be earned tell us here what your concept of "how a man is saved" is.

Salvation is a choice for each individual person to make, God does not make that choice, Sam, though through His foreknowledge he knows who will accept and reject.

Deut. 30:19
"I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:"

The Israelites in the wilderness had a choice to follow God, "life or death." Nothing has changed, it is the same for all of us today.

You have misunderstood predestination. I can explain it in detail from Scripture if you would like for me to do so.

Don't continue to misunderstand this, Sam. The choice man has to make that results in "life or death" is the most important decision we will make in our lives.

 

[Hekuran]

@Samson2020 your post is very close to saying that human choices are morally and spiritually insignificant. The Bible never says that, and very frequently shows how human choices are meaningful.

 

[Samson2020]

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Eph 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Any person or all who are or have been saved are saved strictly by "grace" alone.

Grace is God doing or giving something to a person who does not deserve it.
No one is saved strictly by "faith" alone because faith has "works" associated with it.

Eph 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Grace is useless unless a person can gain "access" to Grace by which they can be saved.

Faith is the key to gaining "access" to grace so a person can be saved.

Rom 5:1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:
Rom 5:2 By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.

Deciding not to use faith when given makes faith dead (useless) to the person who has it. Faith without works is dead.

So then you also believe that faith is given in order to believe?
And that salvation itself is a gift?

 

[Samson2020]

Salvation is a choice for each individual person to make, God does not make that choice, Sam, though through His foreknowledge he knows who will accept and reject.

Deut. 30:19
"I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:"

The Israelites in the wilderness had a choice to follow God, "life or death." Nothing has changed, it is the same for all of us today.

You have misunderstood predestination. I can explain it in detail from Scripture if you would like for me to do so.

Don't continue to misunderstand this, Sam. The choice man has to make that results in "life or death" is the most important decision we will make in our lives.

You can’t use OT quotes to try to support your argument for there is a new living way that was instituted since the law.
God hath imprisoned everyone to disobedience
So that He could have mercy on everyone.
Does this sound like either his imprisonment or his mercy is driven by your choice?
In Isaiah Jesus says that He was sent and anointed by God to proclaim liberty and open the prison for those who are bound(Imprisoned).
How does that occur?
Through the gift of God according to election to release each person He imprisoned to be disobedient.
Why did He imprison everyone?
Not just so that He could have mercy on everyone but to allow them a experience in good and evil and suffer the consequences of participation in evil deeds so that when it was time for you to become what He has predetermined you will be (a son) you would understand the difference and reject inflicting evil on another. Thus doing unto others as you would have them do unto you.
Your salvation day is the day you are released from the prison sentence He sentenced you to.
That said a slave just like the Hebrews who were freed would not could not comprehend how slaves could become kings the same spiritually exists today. You have been freed from the prison if you are born of the spirit, but don’t want to leave for it is all you know.
Without believing God you will never come to your inheritance in Him which is the fullness of God in you which is His goal for you.
Only questions are when is the day of your prison release and how quickly will Jesus build your faith to leave the prison to start becoming what you were predestinated to become.

 

[Samson2020]

@Samson2020 your post is very close to saying that human choices are morally and spiritually insignificant. The Bible never says that, and very frequently shows how human choices are meaningful.

See post #6

 

[Samson2020]

Grace is useless unless a person can gain "access" to Grace by which they can be saved.

Faith is the key to gaining "access" to grace so a person can be saved.

Your gonna have to explain the "gain access to grace" bit as that isn't grace if you have to work for the access, or use something that is within you that was not given.
For the verse plainly states that this is not of yourselves. Whatever that may be to you grace, faith etc...

You say faith is the key to gaining access but if the heart faith necessary to believe God isn't given to you then where do you get that faith?
For not all men have faith. 2 Th 3:2 Why not? God didn't give it to them yet? Their pardon has not yet come.

As Post #6 explains you have been sentenced by God to disobedience and when the day of your salvation comes it can be thought of as a pardon.
God has decided to stop your enslavement to sin, thus the prison is opened for you to leave. However if you refuse to accept that and stay in prison
thats ok to, but God will not allow that forever for His plan for you to become a king is a much grander plan than remaining a pardoned prisoner in prison.
Salvation as a pardon from the prison of sin does need to be believed that it was given and mixed with the measure of faith you were given so that you will
get up and leave the prison, not get stranded in the wilderness of modern Christianity, and become what you were empowered to become
a son of the living God. And all that is faith mixed with works!
How is this done? Through sanctification by the word of God, reading it, understanding it, believing it, and becoming what you were made to be. A king!
Being changed from glory to glory by the word of God.

And this is the mercy side of the verse. "For God hath imprisoned everyone to disobedience so that He may have mercy on everyone." Rom 11:32 NLT

 

[B-A-C]

John 1:12; But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name,

I could put 500 gifts in a part of large room, and invite 500 people. There are enough gifts for everyone. But that doesn't mean everyone will take gift just because it's available.
In fact it's possible that the majority will think the gift isn't worth anything, when in reality it's the most valuable gift they would've ever received.

Matt 7:13; "Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and there are many who enter through it.
Matt 7:14; "For the gate is small and the way is narrow that leads to life, and there are few who find it.

Are there just a few being saved? Someone asked Jesus that very question, this was His answer.

Luke 13:23; And someone said to Him, "Lord, are there just a few who are being saved?" And He said to them,
Luke 13:24; "Strive to enter through the narrow door; for many, I tell you, will seek to enter and will not be able.
Luke 13:25; "Once the head of the house gets up and shuts the door, and you begin to stand outside and knock on the door, saying, 'Lord, open up to us!' then He will answer and say to you, 'I do not know where you are from.'
Luke 13:26; "Then you will begin to say, 'We ate and drank in Your presence, and You taught in our streets';
Luke 13:27; and He will say, 'I tell you, I do not know where you are from; DEPART FROM ME, ALL YOU EVILDOERS.'

Once the door is shut... once you die a physical death... it's game over. It's too late to change your mind.

Heb 9:27; And inasmuch as it is appointed for men to die once and after this comes judgment,

There are no second chances once you die.

Rev 20:15; And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

 

[B-A-C]

Eph 2:8-9; says we are saved by faith and grace alone. It says this is a gift from God. I have no problem with that, and I agree 100%.
So Ok, now I am saved... now what? I didn't have to do anything to get saved. But there are things I have to do to "stay" saved.

Matt 25:8; "The foolish said to the prudent, 'Give us some of your oil, for our lamps are going out.'
Matt 25:9; "But the prudent answered, 'No, there will not be enough for us and you too; go instead to the dealers and buy some for yourselves.'
Matt 25:10; "And while they were going away to make the purchase, the bridegroom came, and those who were ready went in with him to the wedding feast; and the door was shut.

You need to keep oil in your lamp. Jesus doesn't do it for you. All ten virgins started out with oil.

Matt 25:26; "But his master answered and said to him, 'You wicked, lazy slave, you knew that I reap where I did not sow and gather where I scattered no seed.
Matt 25:27; 'Then you ought to have put my money in the bank, and on my arrival I would have received my money back with interest.
Matt 25:28; 'Therefore take away the talent from him, and give it to the one who has the ten talents.'
Matt 25:29; "For to everyone who has, more shall be given, and he will have an abundance; but from the one who does not have, even what he does have shall be taken away.
Matt 25:30; "Throw out the worthless slave into the outer darkness; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

You need to invest the talents and gifts God gave you. If you have nothing to show, you will be thrown out. Jesus already gave you everything you need.
All three of the men in the story started with nothing. They were given gifts to start out with, they didn't have anything to give themselves, it had to come from Jesus.

Matt 25:41; "Then He will also say to those on His left, 'Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels;
Matt 25:42; for I was hungry, and you gave Me nothing to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me nothing to drink;
Matt 25:43; I was a stranger, and you did not invite Me in; naked, and you did not clothe Me; sick, and in prison, and you did not visit Me.'
Matt 25:44; "Then they themselves also will answer, 'Lord, when did we see You hungry, or thirsty, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not take care of You?'
Matt 25:45; "Then He will answer them, 'Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.'
Matt 25:46; "These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."

The ones who are not compassionate and helping those if need, will go to eternal punishment, whether they believe in Jesus or not.

Luke 9:23; And He was saying to them all, "If anyone wishes to come after Me, he must deny himself, and take up his cross daily and follow Me.

You have to carry your own cross, Jesus doesn't do it for you. It's not a one time thing. It's every day, daily for the rest of your life.

Luke 13:6; And He began telling this parable: "A man had a fig tree which had been planted in his vineyard; and he came looking for fruit on it and did not find any.
Luke 13:7; "And he said to the vineyard-keeper, 'Behold, for three years I have come looking for fruit on this fig tree without finding any. Cut it down! Why does it even use up the ground?'
Luke 13:8; "And he answered and said to him, 'Let it alone, sir, for this year too, until I dig around it and put in fertilizer;
Luke 13:9; and if it bears fruit next year, fine; but if not, cut it down.'"

You have to bear fruit. It isn't an option, it's a requirement. Even with Jesus watering them and fertilizing them, they just refuse to bear any fruit.

Luke 8:13; "Those on the rocky soil are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no firm root; they believe for a while, and in time of temptation fall away.
Luke 8:14; "The seed which fell among the thorns, these are the ones who have heard, and as they go on their way they are choked with worries and riches and pleasures of this life, and bring no fruit to maturity.

Some even start to bear fruit, at least for a little while. They wouldn't be able to bear any fruit at all unless they were connected to Jesus, He is the vine, they are the branches.
But even though they start to bear fruit, they never bring it to maturity. Ever try to eat fruit that wasn't ripe yet?

There are dozens more verses similar to these. But it all comes down to...

John 5:28; "Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs will hear His voice,
John 5:29; and will come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment.

 

[Samson2020]

Luke 13:24; "Strive to enter through the narrow door; for many, I tell you, will seek to enter and will not be able.

I'm glad you used this verse as it shows us there is a narrow door for entry.
What is the door-Jesus
Who is responsible for showing you the door-God. for He must draw you to Jesus. So who makes the initial move regarding your salvation? God

Why will many seek to enter and will not be able? For they have not received the grace through faith(which God gives) necessary to believe
nor been called to believe yet.

As explained earlier the gifts of God are without repentance. That said when you are gifted salvation (for it is the GIFT of God) it is like a pardon
from this enslavement to disobedience. Your time has come to leave the prison. But if you cannot accept that pardon and remain in prison, God
never takes back the pardon even though you decide to remain a pardoned prisoner in prison. The pardon will remain yours forever but until you mix it with
what faith you have been given you will never leave (mature). Do kingdom principles to others.

And if you have not received the pardon (salvation) you remain a prisoner. Jesus said He came to open the prison to those who were bound and God bound
them as Rom 11:32 NLT plainly states and unless God grants you the pardon you cannot leave even though the doors are opened.

Luke 13:25; "Once the head of the house gets up and shuts the door, and you begin to stand outside and knock on the door, saying, 'Lord, open up to us!' then He will answer and say to you, 'I do not know where you are from.'

When does the door shut? At the end of the first dispensation. For the 1000yr rest period (sabbath) begins.

Once the door is shut... once you die a physical death... it's game over. It's too late to change your mind.

Well if salvation is a gift like the Bible plainly states, and as I have put it in terms most can understand, how exactly can you change your mind if God has
predetermined that you should not be in the first fruits group, nor have a part in the first dominion, as He never elected you to that position?

Heb 9:27; And inasmuch as it is appointed for men to die once and after this comes judgment,

There are no second chances once you die.

If this is what you truly believe then reconcile Rom 11:32 with that stance.
"For God hath imprisoned everyone to disobedience so that He could have mercy on everyone."

Why would God imprison everyone only to torture them once He decided they had lived long enough in the flesh? Sounds pretty odd of a God that describes
Himself as Love wouldn't you say? And totally against what is said in Rom 11:32

I have stated that the second death is the second dispensation of time in which others will come to the time of their salvation (pardon) and grow up to become
the sons they were predetermined to become. And that is a fact. Possibly the dispensation in which all Israel shall be saved, but I believe there are 6 more.

Your inability to understand the plan of God is the perfect example of the ground in which the word was received but never understood thus no fruit was produced.
If however you are just a carnal man that is good at quoting scripture, as I suspect, you can not receive the understanding imparted in the words of Jesus. They
are seen as literal and the spiritual implication of what was said in a PARABLE remains hidden from you.

He never opened His mouth to speak without a parable and even said that if everyone understood what He was saying that He would have to
heal them all, even though He was sent to heal the broken hearted and proclaim liberty to the captives. Why could they not understand?
Not born again of the spirit for His words were Spirit. Why did that take place if the only destiny for them was an eternal torture? And that doesn't line up with
Rom 11:32 and many many other verses.

Rev 20:15; And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

Again a literal interpretation of a spiritual thing.

Why were they not found in the book of life? Because of their own doing or was the gift never given as the gifting is by predetermined election?
And if given then never taken away for God does not repent of giving it to you.
And why are they judged according to their works instead of just tossing them in the fire? Afterall without the spirit ye are none of His.
What then is the point of bothering to judge according to works?

Eph 2:8-9; says we are saved by faith and grace alone. It says this is a gift from God. I have no problem with that, and I agree 100%.
So Ok, now I am saved... now what? I didn't have to do anything to get saved. But there are things I have to do to "stay" saved.

It's not about staying saved for salvation is a gift that God will not repent of ever giving to you. Rom 11:29
It's about entering into the kingdom and becoming what you have been empowered to become. If the foolish virgins are those whom the Lord decides
are not worthy of the kingdom at that time once the door of the first dispensation is closed they will have to wait until the next, And were the foolish
virgins appointed to that? Just as those that stumble at the word (plan). We gotta keep in mind that it always stars with "the Kingdom can be likened"

Matt 25:41; "Then He will also say to those on His left, 'Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels;
Matt 25:42; for I was hungry, and you gave Me nothing to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me nothing to drink;
Matt 25:43; I was a stranger, and you did not invite Me in; naked, and you did not clothe Me; sick, and in prison, and you did not visit Me.'
Matt 25:44; "Then they themselves also will answer, 'Lord, when did we see You hungry, or thirsty, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not take care of You?'
Matt 25:45; "Then He will answer them, 'Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.'
Matt 25:46; "These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."

And all of this is examples of those who did not practice the kingdom principles. And all of them were born again or they wouldn't even take His words seriously.
Who are the least of these? It could be anyone, but yet He says since you didn't do it to them you didn't do it to me. Could that be because we all are the
children of God and part of one another? Yes. Psa 82:6

John 5:29; and will come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment

And what is the judgement? Is it simply fire and eternal roasting or is it the second death where according to their works they are judged and placed back in
to this world of good and evil to continue to mature?
What is judgement? Is it not a crisis as a way of knowing? Or do we take the English version of a verdict followed by a sentencing? Seems they were already
sentenced to disobedience by the Father so now were gonna fry em up for being what He sentenced them to be?
Considering that Jesus was given all things and it is the Fathers will that He lose nothing but raise it up again at the last day, there would have to be
other dispensations of time for that to occur, as told by Paul in Eph 1:10

The judgement then is to be placed back in until you have been perfected and even that is by the design of God, for those that stumbled at the word
were appointed to stumble. 1Pe 2:8 Notice the disobedient part of that verse? Who imprisoned them to disobedience? You think it was so He could torture them?
Can't be for His will is that all things are to be raised up at the last day and as we see that does not occur at the close of this dispensation, there must be others.

Account for those born during the kingdom age where Jesus and the first fruits sons are seen of them for 1000 yrs and then Satan who was locked up for
that time is released only to deceive the nations to come against the kingdom and God sends fire from heaven to consume them all. They then are raised up
at the general resurrection and judged according to their works for the door was shut when the end of the first dispensation closed, at he beginning of
the kingdom reign. Where are these people placed? Did they commit sin even in the kingdom age, born with carnal minds i'd say so, but probably minimal
as the tempter is locked up. Where do they end up? And why were they even born if your answer is to eternally torment them as well?

 

[Samson2020]

I can try this another way. If God has gifted you salvation but you refuse to use what He has given you to get increase of faith(talents) or you will not use what
faith you have been allocated to continue knocking, asking, seeking you will not come to be what your full potential was predetermined to be.
That said you will be like one of the foolish virgins in that they, born again, did not keep the oil burning, did not keep asking, seeking, knocking and the flame went
out. Were they then fit for the kingdom? No.
But they were born again as they were of the virgins, so even though they were not fit to enter at that time, when would they eventually be able to enter?

As stated previously multiple times, salvation a gift that God does not repent of giving you, thus cannot be taken from you, they must enter in when they have
matured and come to their full potential in another dispensation.

This example is the act of works (knocking, seeking, asking, applying kingdom principles) according to the faith given you to attain to a son worthy of the title.
Faith with works! Works according to faith!

 

[Bob Carabbio]

How is a man saved?

There seems to be some misunderstanding amongst some of us as this issue keeps coming up in various threads so lets hash it out.

Is it not an election according to grace? Rom 11:5
Eph 2:8-9
For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God. Not of works lest any man should boast.

"Grace" (unmerited favor) is why you weren't IMMEDIATELY DESTROYED the first time you SINNED and fell short of HIS glory.
And "Grace" is THE ONLY REASON why God would bother to send CONVICTION OF SIN by the Holy Spirit to you, so that you could REPENT and call on HIM in FAITH, that He gifts, for salvation.

Simple as that.

 

[B-A-C]

This quickly turning into an OSAS discussion, ( doesn't everything? )

But whether the people were ever saved or not doesn't matter for the purpose of this thread. The point is, they weren't saved when they died.

salvation is a gift that God will not repent of ever giving to you.

God doesn't take His gifts back. But people return gifts all the time. Go to the Wal*Mart customer service desk the day after Christmas, and see if anyone is returning any of the gifts they received.

Deut 32:15; "But Jeshurun grew fat and kicked—You are grown fat, thick, and sleek—Then he forsook God who made him, And scorned the Rock of his salvation.
Jdgs 2:12; and they forsook the LORD, the God of their fathers, who had brought them out of the land of Egypt, and followed other gods from among the gods of the peoples who were around them, and bowed themselves down to them; thus they provoked the LORD to anger.
Jdgs 2:13; So they forsook the LORD and served Baal and the Ashtaroth.
Jdgs 10:6; Then the sons of Israel again did evil in the sight of the LORD, served the Baals and the Ashtaroth, the gods of Aram, the gods of Sidon, the gods of Moab, the gods of the sons of Ammon, and the gods of the Philistines; thus they forsook the LORD and did not serve Him.

There are many more verses like this, God didn't forsake them, they forsook Him.

I won't take the gift I gave to you back from you. But that doesn't keep you from giving it away.

 

[Hekuran]

@Samson2020 Why is the doctrine of election so important to you? It appears in almost all of your posts.

 

[Samson2020]

"Grace" (unmerited favor) is why you weren't IMMEDIATELY DESTROYED the first time you SINNED and fell short of HIS glory.
And "Grace" is THE ONLY REASON why God would bother to send CONVICTION OF SIN by the Holy Spirit to you, so that you could REPENT and call on HIM in FAITH, that He gifts, for salvation.

Simple as that.

Good then we agree almost entirely.
Immediately destroyed the first time you sinned is a bit much considering He imprisoned everyone to disobedience don't you think?
He could have done that to Adam and Eve and avoided all the rest of us but He didn't because He always had a higher objective.

 

[Samson2020]

@Samson2020 Why is the doctrine of election so important to you? It appears in almost all of your posts.

I think it is simple. Without being elected in whatever dispensation that occurs for you, you will not be freed from your imprisonment to disobedience. Rom 11:32
i.e. born again of the Spirit. And until that happens for each person they have no chance at being anything other than a vessel to dishonor.
Most want to put salvation on the back of the individual to attain but as it is by grace through faith according to election it seems that the election has a very
important role. For without it you can never begin the process of becoming a son which is what we were all intended to become.

That election comes with signs such as speaking in tongues(private prayer ability), and the casting out of unclean spirits, the laying on of hands and the
sick recovering etc....
Those that teach otherwise are just not elected at this time and as such are not born again and you can find them in charge of most church services every Sunday.

They love to teach what they have been taught in seminary, and enjoy all the events and asking neighbors to come visit their organization, but for
the present time are only deceived into thinking they are the true elect, when in fact they are not, for the most part.

We are told that there shall be such great signs and wonders that even the very ELECT would be deceived IF it were possible. Do you not think the modern
church of today and its parishioners fit the description to a large degree for they seem to have taken the place of the true chosen of God and have set
themselves as the entry doors of heaven. The elect know better and have come out of her my people. For she is only a thing that must be overcome
and set up for your opportunity to overcome.

So maybe these posts are for self examination to those who claim to be what they really may or may not be?
We are to make our calling and ELECTION sure right?

 

[Samson2020]

I won't take the gift I gave to you back from you. But that doesn't keep you from giving it away.

All I can say to that is wow. Gods gift of salvation given away like a return at wal-mart. How is that even possible? As the gift has to come from God I cannot
re-gift it. It's mine like a birth mark!

I am surprised, not really, that you didn't take a shot at resolving the problems with one dispensation and all those born after the doors closed at the start of
the first kingdom reign at the end of the first dispensation of times.
Doesn't fit your eternal torment theory does it?

 

[B-A-C]

It's mine like a birth mark!

Heb 12:16; that there be no immoral or godless person like Esau, who sold his own birthright for a single meal.

am surprised, not really, that you didn't take a shot at resolving the problems with one dispensation and all those born after the doors closed at the start of
the first kingdom reign at the end of the first dispensation of times.

It doesn't matter how many dispensations there are. This is a very vague question, but I assume you mean the millennial reign here. ( Which really isn't the first )

Rev 20:2; And he laid hold of the dragon, the serpent of old, who is the devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years;
Rev 20:3; and he threw him into the abyss, and shut it and sealed it over him, so that he would not deceive the nations any longer, until the thousand years were completed; after these things he must be released for a short time.

Rev 20:7; When the thousand years are completed, Satan will be released from his prison,
Rev 20:8; and will come out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together for the war; the number of them is like the sand of the seashore.
Rev 20:9; And they came up on the broad plain of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city, and fire came down from heaven and devoured them.
Rev 20:10; And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

It doesn't matter when you were born, before, during or after the millennial reign. If you're fighting against Christ you end up in the same place. There are no different rules. You spend forever and ever there.

You seem to think this is an endless cycle like reincarnation or something similar, where you get chances over and over again until you get it right. But the Bible says it will all end one day.

1Cor 15:24; then comes the end, when He hands over the kingdom to the God and Father, when He has abolished all rule and all authority and power.
1Cor 15:25; For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet.
1Cor 15:26; The last enemy that will be abolished is death.
1Cor 15:27; For HE HAS PUT ALL THINGS IN SUBJECTION UNDER HIS FEET. But when He says, "All things are put in subjection," it is evident that He is excepted who put all things in subjection to Him.
1Cor 15:28; When all things are subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also will be subjected to the One who subjected all things to Him, so that God may be all in all.

For everyone who's left, they become subject to God. ( those who haven't been cast into the lake of fire ) Jesus gives the keys of the kingdom back to the Father. But that doesn't happen until all the nonsense has been removed.
No one will be able to oppose Jesus/God/the Father any longer. There will be no more enemies to fight. No more false religions, no more Satan. None of that.
There won't be another dispensation, because there will no longer be people who sin and oppose God. There will no longer be a requirement for physical death, because people will no longer oppose God.

 

[Curtis]

Good then we agree almost entirely.
Immediately destroyed the first time you sinned is a bit much considering He imprisoned everyone to disobedience don't you think?
He could have done that to Adam and Eve and avoided all the rest of us but He didn't because He always had a higher objective.

Grace is God giving someone something that he does not deserve, and mercy is God not giving what man does deserves.

Time is another form of God’s mercy on the human race as he is not willing that any man perish but come unto repentance.