How is a man saved??

[Samson2020]

Heb 11:13 These all died in faith, NOT having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them,
and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.

When would you say that the promises that they were promised should be received. We as they will have to be matured into the full measure of the stature of
Christ. When does that happen?

You seem to think this is an endless cycle like reincarnation or something similar, where you get chances over and over again until you get it right. But the Bible says it will all end one day.

And I agree one day will be the last day we just disagree on what day that is.

In your world the door is shut at the beginning of the kingdom reign as is my understanding as well. The problem here is that human beings will be born during the
kingdom yrs and nobody will be graced with salvation during that time. So when do they get their chance as you put it?

All things being reconciled to God through Christ is impossible in that scenario as Christ is the anointing that Jesus is the head of.
We can't have the majority of Christ in the lake of fire and another portion in the kingdom, don't fit.

If you are resurrected to a second death sounds like a reincarnation to me but back to who you were when you passed as you are judged according to your works
which then would leave you to pick up again where you left off, just as those that died prior to Jesus and the opening of the prison, who died in faith having not
received the promises yet.

It doesn't matter when you were born, before, during or after the millennial reign. If you're fighting against Christ you end up in the same place. There are no different rules. You spend forever and ever there.

And how does that fit Col 1:20 Rom 5:18 Eph 1:10 1 Ti 4:9-11 1 Co 15:22-23

"Just as everyone dies because we all belong to Adam, everyone who belongs to Christ will be given new life." NLT
"Ye were bought with a price" And if bought by Him with His own blood, who do you belong to? He died for ALL to be testified in due time. He paid the price for ALL.

 

[Bob Carabbio]

Good then we agree almost entirely.
Immediately destroyed the first time you sinned is a bit much considering He imprisoned everyone to disobedience don't you think?

Nope. that's when we "Fell short", and came under sentence of DEATH. Adam and Eve WERE NEVER CURSED - only the Serpent, and the "ground". I don't ascribe to the "Original SIN" theology, or that I inherited ANYTHING from Adam other than the SAME HUMAN NATURE that Adam was created with. Adam's "nature" NEVER CHANGED. What DID change was that after his SIN, he became "Spiritually DEAD" - just like we all do when we sin for the first time..

He could have done that to Adam and Eve and avoided all the rest of us but He didn't because He always had a higher objective.

Yup - the "plan of salvation" so called was in place before creation. Adam and Eve's actions didn't surprise Him at all. He knew what He had created.

 

[Bob Carabbio]

Heb 11:13 These all died in faith, NOT having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them,
and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.

When would you say that the promises that they were promised should be received.

They WERE received following Calvary when Jesus led "Captivity Captive" into Heaven with Him.

We as they will have to be matured into the full measure of the stature of
Christ. When does that happen?

Since we're all HUMAN - never.

And I agree one day will be the last day we just disagree on what day that is.

Because ONLY God knows. No problem there - just "occupy till He comes".

The remainder of the post being nothing but theological assumptions, is ignored.

 

[Samson2020]

They WERE received following Calvary when Jesus led "Captivity Captive" into Heaven with Him.

That would allow them entry into the kingdom not having done anything but believe. That doesn't line up with first having to be born of the spirit
receiving the power to become a son of God.
Then working out their salvation.
In that scenario nothing would be required of them other than what they already did. Where is the doing of the kingdom principles, suffering for His names sake
the maturing into the full measure?

Since we're all HUMAN - never.

Eph 4:13 "Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ."

You sure about that? You are a new spiritual creature living in a human body not just a human any more.

You don't really think He's gonna allow those that have not come to this point to sit in the throne with Him do you?

I don't ascribe to the "Original SIN" theology, or that I inherited ANYTHING from Adam other than the SAME HUMAN NATURE that Adam was created with. Adam's "nature" NEVER CHANGED. What DID change was that after his SIN, he became "Spiritually DEAD" - just like we all do when we sin for the first time..

As a carnally minded human in the womb you were a sinner from the moment you were conceived and born spiritually dead.
Psa 51:5 "For I was born a sinner, yes from the moment my mother conceived me." In light of this verse how is it that not even being born yet one is a sinner
from the moment of conception? Sounds like an Inheritance issue to me.
Rom 5:18 plainly states that because of Adams disobedience judgment came upon all men to condemnation. I see no way around it not being inherited
in the form of carnality seeing it occurs at conception.

 

[Bob Carabbio]

That would allow them entry into the kingdom not having done anything but believe. That doesn't line up with first having to be born of the spirit

Since Jesus "Preached to them" after He died, you have NO IDEA what all transpired in "Abraham's Bosom", so you have no point at all.

The rest of you post is ignored, since it's all nothing but "Paradigmatic Theology".

 

[B-A-C]

Rom 10:17; So faith comes from hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ.
Gal 3:2; This is the only thing I want to find out from you: did you receive the Spirit by the works of the Law, or by hearing with faith?

Heb 11:6; And without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is and that He is a rewarder of those who seek Him.

 

[Samson2020]

Rom 10:17; So faith comes from hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ.
Gal 3:2; This is the only thing I want to find out from you: did you receive the Spirit by the works of the Law, or by hearing with faith?

Heb 11:6; And without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is and that He is a rewarder of those who seek Him.

Romans 10:18 But I say, have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world.
Rom 10:20 But Esaais is very bold, and saith, I was found by those that sought me not; I was made manifest to them that asked not after me.

And that brings us right back to the Father making the choice. I would concede that your verse quotes are made directly to elect, who were obviously
having issues with works of any kind but particularly the Mosaic law. As Paul states did you receive the Spirit by..........already have it.

Who other than an elect is actually going to seek God for without Jesus revealing the Father there is no seeking, without given faith from the Father
your not seeking anything.
For not all men have faith. 2 Th 3:2 Hasn't been given to them yet.

God seeketh such that will worship Him in spirit and truth. Who other than a spiritually born again can worship God in spirit? Until they are born again they
are dead spiritually so no true spiritual worship taking place.

Try this:
Jesus loved the Father in a way that no one could understand and He wanted us to love God the same way He loves Him. So He agreed to lay down His life
to buy us from death as all were born into condemnation and resulting death. And in that purchase was guaranteed that those whom the Father gave Him would
be born of the same Spirit so that they also would know the love of God and love God back the same way He does. We love Him for He first loved us.

That said, why would a God who seeketh such to worship Him in spirit and truth not seek to bring all to the same understanding of love that Jesus
has for our Father?
At the present we can't fully comprehend that love but day by day we see it growing more and more in us if we truly are His chosen.

And again the last 2 verses quoted by you are verses that applied to only the elect already. The first is the beginning of the election for the heart faith
must come from without a man, from God, for the man to truly believe from the heart. Thus it is a gift, not from yourselves.

 

[Charlie24]

Romans 10:18 But I say, have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world.
Rom 10:20 But Esaais is very bold, and saith, I was found by those that sought me not; I was made manifest to them that asked not after me.

And that brings us right back to the Father making the choice. I would concede that your verse quotes are made directly to elect, who were obviously
having issues with works of any kind but particularly the Mosaic law. As Paul states did you receive the Spirit by..........already have it.

Who other than an elect is actually going to seek God for without Jesus revealing the Father there is no seeking, without given faith from the Father
your not seeking anything.
For not all men have faith. 2 Th 3:2 Hasn't been given to them yet.

God seeketh such that will worship Him in spirit and truth. Who other than a spiritually born again can worship God in spirit? Until they are born again they
are dead spiritually so no true spiritual worship taking place.

Try this:
Jesus loved the Father in a way that no one could understand and He wanted us to love God the same way He loves Him. So He agreed to lay down His life
to buy us from death as all were born into condemnation and resulting death. And in that purchase was guaranteed that those whom the Father gave Him would
be born of the same Spirit so that they also would know the love of God and love God back the same way He does. We love Him for He first loved us.

That said, why would a God who seeketh such to worship Him in spirit and truth not seek to bring all to the same understanding of love that Jesus
has for our Father?
At the present we can't fully comprehend that love but day by day we see it growing more and more in us if we truly are His chosen.

And again the last 2 verses quoted by you are verses that applied to only the elect already. The first is the beginning of the election for the heart faith
must come from without a man, from God, for the man to truly believe from the heart. Thus it is a gift, not from yourselves.

Move on to the next verse, Sam.

Romans 10:21
"But to Israel he saith, All day long I have stretched forth my hands unto a disobedient and gainsaying people."

Israel could not search for God because they were totally depraved, just as all are. So God sent Isaiah to preach to them. That is how God "stretched out His had to them." But Israel was "disobedient" and rejected the preaching of Isaiah. They made that choice to reject Him.

The hearing of the Word of God is how He calls us, but there must be someone to preach it, some will accept that call, but most will reject it.

The Great Commission is a charge from Christ to take His Word/Gospel to all the world. Man will accept or reject that Word.

Romans 1013-17
"For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?

And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!

But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?

So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God."

 

[complete]

'And many other signs truly did Jesus
in the presence of His disciples,
which are not written in this book:
But these are written, that ye might believe
that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God;
and that believing ye might have life
through His name.'
(John 20:30)

Praise God!

 

[Samson2020]

Move on to the next verse, Sam.

Romans 10:21
"But to Israel he saith, All day long I have stretched forth my hands unto a disobedient and gainsaying people."

Israel could not search for God because they were totally depraved, just as all are. So God sent Isaiah to preach to them. That is how God "stretched out His had to them." But Israel was "disobedient" and rejected the preaching of Isaiah. They made that choice to reject Him.

The hearing of the Word of God is how He calls us, but there must be someone to preach it, some will accept that call, but most will reject it.

The Great Commission is a charge from Christ to take His Word/Gospel to all the world. Man will accept or reject that Word.

Romans 1013-17
"For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?

And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!

But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?

So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God."

Faith does COME by hearing, but notice the faith had to COME. It wasn't something from within the man that caused him to believe.

That issue is the whole discussion of this thread. Did you choose God or did God choose you? Where is your evidence of election?
Did Jesus give examples of the true believers and what they would do? That is your evidence of who you are in Him. If you do not have that evidence it don't
matter if you accepted Him for the Father hath not called you yet.

It would seem that the biggest percentage here believe they chose God. The thing I would ask of you especially is, since you haven't received the Holy Spirit,
as testified by you, then how are you so sure you are elect at this time?

For without the Spirit ye are none of His. The crowd that says I chose God and He predestinated me because He knew I would choose Him only deceives themselves.

But as Jesus would have it your turn comes later, maybe tomorrow, next yr, according to Gods timing and not the individuals, and for all as He bought and
paid for all.
The statement He makes that as many as the Father hath Given me implies again that it is up to God to pick at this present and future time.

He also tell us that who will sit on His right and His left is not His to give, that too is also the Fathers choice.

We know that the Fathers will is that everyone should be saved and come into the knowledge of the truth. We also know that if we pray according to the Fathers
will we will get what we ask for.
Jesus at the last seconds of His life prayed the Father to "FORGIVE THEM FOR THEY KNOW NOT WHAT THEY DO"
Do we suppose that His prayer was just for those that had crucified Him or for all of us as He died for all of us. If it was for all of us it was in alignment
with the Fathers will, and as such He will receive what He asked for. Forgiveness for all of us.
Eph 4:32........." EVEN AS GOD FOR CHRISTS SAKE HATH FORGIVEN YOU." We weren't at the crucifixion of Jesus so it had to be for us all.
You were bought with a price and that was His blood, the reality of that only the Father can make you aware of, from the heart.
As 1 Co 15:23 states there is an order to this resurrection and that order is not dictated to God by man, but rather dictated to man by God according to His own will.
So we get back to Eph 1:4-5 that states it was HIS WILL to predestinate you, not your own.

Your will has nothing to do with you being born on earth as a human, much less male or female, your free will has nothing to do with you having been
conceived a sinner, Psa 51:5 So why would we actually think it was our own free will that saved us? That is ridiculous. Claiming free will saved you
because you chose to believe God is placing man in charge instead of the Father, and thats not how this works.

That all said it is God that will bring all men to salvation, and the status of a son, when He is done working out His own plan and nothing a man can do will stop it
from happening.
You will come when you are called and if need be you will be turned back by Him for further education, but you will eventually be what you were predestinated to be.

That is freedom, by knowing the will of God and that the price was paid in full, for all, by just one man, Jesus Christ our Lord.

Eph 2:13-15 But now in Christ Jesus ye, who were sometimes far off, are made near BY THE BLOOD OF CHRIST. For HE is our peace, who hath made both
(the gentile and the Jew) one , and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us; Having abolished in His flesh, the enmity, even the law of
commandments contained in ordinances for to make in Himself of two, one new man, so making peace; and that HE MIGHT RECONCILE BOTH UNTO GOD in one body (Christ) by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby

How does this not line up with 1 Co 15:22-23 "As in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive." But every man in his own order...............

He slew the enmity, He made of the Jew and Gentile one new man (although we do not see the fullness of that yet), He was the peace maker, He is to reconcile
all in the one body (Christ) to God.
Who is the ONE NEW MAN. That is the body of Christ when all shall have come into life in the Spirit of Christ.

Col 1:20 says the same thing. And having made peace BY THE BLOOD OF HIS CROSS, by Him, to RECONCILE ALL THINGS UNTO HIMSELF.

And none of that had anything to do with a mans will.

 

[B-A-C]

Col 1:20 says the same thing. And having made peace BY THE BLOOD OF HIS CROSS, by Him, to RECONCILE ALL THINGS UNTO HIMSELF.

He reconciled things by throwing some people into the Lake of Fire.

Faith does COME by hearing, but notice the faith had to COME. It wasn't something from within the man that caused him to believe.

Matt 17:16; "I brought him to Your disciples, and they could not cure him."
Matt 17:17; And Jesus answered and said, "You unbelieving and perverted generation, how long shall I be with you? How long shall I put up with you? Bring him here to Me."
Matt 17:18; And Jesus rebuked him, and the demon came out of him, and the boy was cured at once.
Matt 17:19; Then the disciples came to Jesus privately and said, "Why could we not drive it out?"
Matt 17:20; And He *said to them, "Because of the littleness of your faith; for truly I say to you, if you have faith the size of a mustard seed, you will say to this mountain, 'Move from here to there,' and it will move; and nothing will be impossible to you.

Why was Jesus rebuking the disciples here? Was it their fault or God's fault that they had too little faith?

 

[Charlie24]

Faith does COME by hearing, but notice the faith had to COME. It wasn't something from within the man that caused him to believe.

That issue is the whole discussion of this thread. Did you choose God or did God choose you? Where is your evidence of election?
Did Jesus give examples of the true believers and what they would do? That is your evidence of who you are in Him. If you do not have that evidence it don't
matter if you accepted Him for the Father hath not called you yet.

It would seem that the biggest percentage here believe they chose God. The thing I would ask of you especially is, since you haven't received the Holy Spirit,
as testified by you, then how are you so sure you are elect at this time?

For without the Spirit ye are none of His. The crowd that says I chose God and He predestinated me because He knew I would choose Him only deceives themselves.

But as Jesus would have it your turn comes later, maybe tomorrow, next yr, according to Gods timing and not the individuals, and for all as He bought and
paid for all.
The statement He makes that as many as the Father hath Given me implies again that it is up to God to pick at this present and future time.

He also tell us that who will sit on His right and His left is not His to give, that too is also the Fathers choice.

We know that the Fathers will is that everyone should be saved and come into the knowledge of the truth. We also know that if we pray according to the Fathers
will we will get what we ask for.
Jesus at the last seconds of His life prayed the Father to "FORGIVE THEM FOR THEY KNOW NOT WHAT THEY DO"
Do we suppose that His prayer was just for those that had crucified Him or for all of us as He died for all of us. If it was for all of us it was in alignment
with the Fathers will, and as such He will receive what He asked for. Forgiveness for all of us.
Eph 4:32........." EVEN AS GOD FOR CHRISTS SAKE HATH FORGIVEN YOU." We weren't at the crucifixion of Jesus so it had to be for us all.
You were bought with a price and that was His blood, the reality of that only the Father can make you aware of, from the heart.
As 1 Co 15:23 states there is an order to this resurrection and that order is not dictated to God by man, but rather dictated to man by God according to His own will.
So we get back to Eph 1:4-5 that states it was HIS WILL to predestinate you, not your own.

Your will has nothing to do with you being born on earth as a human, much less male or female, your free will has nothing to do with you having been
conceived a sinner, Psa 51:5 So why would we actually think it was our own free will that saved us? That is ridiculous. Claiming free will saved you
because you chose to believe God is placing man in charge instead of the Father, and thats not how this works.

That all said it is God that will bring all men to salvation, and the status of a son, when He is done working out His own plan and nothing a man can do will stop it
from happening.
You will come when you are called and if need be you will be turned back by Him for further education, but you will eventually be what you were predestinated to be.

That is freedom, by knowing the will of God and that the price was paid in full, for all, by just one man, Jesus Christ our Lord.

Eph 2:13-15 But now in Christ Jesus ye, who were sometimes far off, are made near BY THE BLOOD OF CHRIST. For HE is our peace, who hath made both
(the gentile and the Jew) one , and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us; Having abolished in His flesh, the enmity, even the law of
commandments contained in ordinances for to make in Himself of two, one new man, so making peace; and that HE MIGHT RECONCILE BOTH UNTO GOD in one body (Christ) by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby

How does this not line up with 1 Co 15:22-23 "As in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive." But every man in his own order...............

He slew the enmity, He made of the Jew and Gentile one new man (although we do not see the fullness of that yet), He was the peace maker, He is to reconcile
all in the one body (Christ) to God.
Who is the ONE NEW MAN. That is the body of Christ when all shall have come into life in the Spirit of Christ.

Col 1:20 says the same thing. And having made peace BY THE BLOOD OF HIS CROSS, by Him, to RECONCILE ALL THINGS UNTO HIMSELF.

And none of that had anything to do with a mans will.

Ok, if you're going to deny that the faith God gives to believe comes through the hearing of Gospel as Paul said, then we can't have a conversation based on Scripture. We will have a conversation on your opinion of what predestination means. That's the mistake that Calvin made.

 

[Samson2020]

Why was Jesus rebuking the disciples here? Was it their fault or God's fault that they had too little faith?

Guess that depends on your position as to where true faith comes from. He did say IF you had faith...................What is He to perfect in us? Our faith? Yes
the faith given in seed form from the Father that grows into a tree that accomodates all the fowl of the air. And He added that prayer and fasting was necessary
to remove that particular kind.
Luke 13:18-19 And that is what the kingdom of heaven can be likened to the mustard seed of faith grown into a mustard tree. One must have the seed first.

You didn't understand the previous post I made did you?

 

[Samson2020]

Ok, if you're going to deny that the faith God gives to believe comes through the hearing of Gospel as Paul said, then we can't have a conversation based on Scripture. We will have a conversation on your opinion of what predestination means. That's the mistake that Calvin made.

I see your starting to change your tune a bit? The faith that God gives to believe is exactly what I have been saying the whole time.
Nobody said that Faith won't come but whats the point if the reason for the faith to be given(believing) is unable to achieve it's intended purpose?

For faith must be given to actually believe the truth of your salvation, you must hear what was done to procure your salvation, so both at similar times.
His blood shed on the cross procured your salvation, you can only believe that from the heart if God gives you that faith necessary to believe the truth
of your salvation.
This is how His order of resurrection takes place. Not up to you, and I do not blame you for wanting it to be you now but until He elects you, NO SPIRIT thus
none of His? You have already admitted to this so why are we having this conversation? Your turn will come in His good timing.

And you also did not understand post #30? It doesn't get any easier than that to see the whole picture. But if blinded, you won't see or understand a thing.

I am aware of the sites many errors and this is one of them for most are of the prescient view which if followed out can be proven wrong. As it puts
man in control of his own destiny, but that is not the will of God, for that would allow man to be telling God what he does and doesn't want.
But since His thoughts are much greater to/for us than we can imagine He won't allow us to make those forever choices. They are already made by Him
We love Him for He first loved us. When you truly experience the new birth in the spirit you will understand.

It can be likened to a trip from LA to NYC. You begin and make a stop in Vegas, then Denver, then down to Amarillo, maybe New Orleans, possibly on to Atlanta,
then back to Louisville, then finally arrive at NYC. Didn't really matter that you made all those stops for you have arrived at the destination He intended for you
to arrive at in the end.
You started in disobedience according to His will and you will be made alive in Christ for Christs sake according to His will.

 

[Curtis]

That issue is the whole discussion of this thread. Did you choose God or did God choose you? Where is your evidence of election?

Both, God chooses those who chose him.

 

[Curtis]

The faith that God gives to believe is exactly what I have been saying the whole time.

Faith comes by hearing the Word of God or in other words faith comes by hearing the voice of Jesus who is the Word.

Rev 3:20 Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.

Faith only works if you are first willing to open the door when you hear his voice.

Jhn 7:17 If anyone wills to do His will, he shall know concerning the doctrine, whether it is from God or whether I speak on My own authority.

there first needs to be a willingness to do God’s will before that person can know what he hears is God’s voice.

 

[Samson2020]

Both, God chooses those who chose him.

?????? Not hardly, And actually backwards, as "We love Him for He first loved us" "For God so loved the world" it wasn't because we loved God.


Gal 3:23 Before the coming of this faith, we were held in custody under the law, locked up until the faith that was to come would be revealed.
When was that faith revealed? After the resurrection of Jesus, some 50 days after. The day of Pentecost. Who revealed it? Where was the faith before it was revealed? With God as it was His gift to those who received it. Unto whom was it revealed? Only those He called.

John 12:38 That the saying of Esaias the prophet might be fulfilled, which he spoke, Lord, who hath believed our report? And to whom hath the arm
of the Lord been revealed?
John 12:39 Therefore THEY COULD NOT BELIEVE, because that Esaias saith again,
John 1:40 He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart: that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.

Was Jesus sent and anointed by the Father to heal the broken hearted, proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound?
Why then did it not happen for all? Because the Father blinded their eyes and hardened their hearts so that they would not be converted. Is that a mans free will?

Until this heart faith comes to you, you only believe with the head (ye of little faith) and God must gift it to you as your time of living under the dominion of
death(condemnation) has come to an end. By His choice. For there is an order to the resurrection, and He controls the order.

 

[Samson2020]

Both, God chooses those who chose him.

In light of you believing Jesus is God (Trinity issues) why then do you not believe it when He says:
John 15:16 YOU DID NOT CHOOSE ME, BUT I CHOSE YOU.........................
John 15:19 .............Yet because you are not of the world, BUT I CHOSE YOU OUT OF THE WORLD, therefore the world hates you.
I don't think your gonna be able to stand in front of the throne and tell Him you chose Him so that He would choose you in light of the above scripture?

By extension every disciple is chosen out of the world by God. The pardon has come, and so has the kingdom unto you.

 

[Curtis]

In light of you believing Jesus is God (Trinity issues) why then do you not believe it when He says:
John 15:16 YOU DID NOT CHOOSE ME, BUT I CHOSE YOU.........................
John 15:19 .............Yet because you are not of the world, BUT I CHOSE YOU OUT OF THE WORLD, therefore the world hates you.
I don't think your gonna be able to stand in front of the throne and tell Him you chose Him so that He would choose you in light of the above scripture?

By extension every disciple is chosen out of the world by God. The pardon has come, and so has the kingdom unto you.

You have to look at all scripture to get the right understanding. Does God choose us? Yes, but we also must choose him.

Deu 30:19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:

You will not find a person in Heaven who did not choose to want to be there, neither will you find anyone there that God did not choose to be there.

Can a person's name be blotted out of the Book of Life? If it can then that person has a choice in their salvation.

What if God did not want to save anyone, can a person's choice of wanting to be saved save them?

It all starts with God "first" and then comes our choice to accept.

What if a person does not want to be saved will God go against their own will to save them anyway?

 

[Samson2020]

You will not find a person in Heaven who did not choose to want to be there, neither will you find anyone there that God did not choose to be there.

I can concede that as after the Father has shown all men what He and His Son have done for all men they will all be very grateful to be there. This is shown
in Phl 2:11 And that every tongue shall confess that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of the Father.
What glory is there in sending anyone to a fire that is never put out? But there is glory in all confessing Jesus as Lord and actually meaning it, not out of fear
but out of love for Him and what He did for them.

What if a person does not want to be saved will God go against their own will to save them anyway?

YES.

It's already been done. When Jesus said IT IS FINISHED and then died it was the price paid for ALL mankinds sins.

If you will look carefully at post #30 it is explained by the fact that He made of the Jew and the Gentile ONE NEW MAN and
is reconciling the world unto God through that new man which we are part of if we are in Christ now. The new man is THE BODY OF CHRIST with Jesus at the head,
and it includes all mankind when finished.

Eph 2:13-15 But now in Christ Jesus ye, who were sometimes far off, are made near BY THE BLOOD OF CHRIST. For HE is our peace, who hath made both
(the gentile and the Jew) one , and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us; Having abolished in His flesh, the enmity, even the law of
commandments contained in ordinances for to make in Himself of two, one new man, so making peace; and that HE MIGHT RECONCILE BOTH UNTO GOD in one body (Christ) by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby

When Jesus said I am the resurrection He really meant it and it is for everyone. As God had imprisoned us all to disobedience it is through being baptized into
Christ that each person comes into resurrected life due to His sacrifice not your acceptance.
Consider this, God is love and to whom much is forgiven the same loveth more as opposed to whom little is forgiven the same loveth little. Now who is gonna be
the one who loves God the most? The one whom the most sin was forgiven. Now who that is forgiven is not gonna love? Nobody, because all are forgiven for
Christs sake. Eph 4:32 and 1 Jo 2:12 All were forgiven so all will love.
But until He makes it clear what happened and why then each will wait and continue His life in condemnation as that is the Fathers will for them at this
present time. The Mystery of Iniquity goes here for understanding. The world hates the true disciple because thats one of His being perfected now as opposed
to later by the use of those who are blinded and hardened. Not their fault so Jesus, Stephen, and others said either forgive them for they know not what
they do, or lay not this sin to their charge. They understood why the others had not yet been called and it was for their own perfecting. And they understood
that eventually God would call all men because the Son purchased all men from death when He died.
God has never abdicated His throne to man, and never will. He is either sovereign or not. If He is then He is in control, if not then He is wringing His hands
hoping men will choose Him?
And if they don't somehow He still has control to burn em forever? So is He in control or not?

We see not yet all things under His feet, but when all things are under His feet ALL will be in Christ as the new man, the full stature, and reconciled to God.
Til we all come................
For to make in Himself (Christ as head of the body) one new man( Christ as complete, the full stature, Jews and Gentiles) by them being baptized into Christ as they are made to understand and given heart faith to believe, thus reconciling each person to the Father through being born of the Spirit.
And as such God will have what He wants many, many sons that truly worship Him in spirit for they will all be alive in spirit to do so. And in truth for
they will all understand the truth of what Gods plan was.
He desires that all men be saved and come into the knowledge of the truth. Right?

If you see it it's grand, if not then I can't help you, God has to make it plain to you. Eph 2:13-15 it's all right there including the end of the matter.