How is a man saved??

[Charlie24]

I see your starting to change your tune a bit? The faith that God gives to believe is exactly what I have been saying the whole time.
Nobody said that Faith won't come but whats the point if the reason for the faith to be given(believing) is unable to achieve it's intended purpose?

For faith must be given to actually believe the truth of your salvation, you must hear what was done to procure your salvation, so both at similar times.
His blood shed on the cross procured your salvation, you can only believe that from the heart if God gives you that faith necessary to believe the truth
of your salvation.
This is how His order of resurrection takes place. Not up to you, and I do not blame you for wanting it to be you now but until He elects you, NO SPIRIT thus
none of His? You have already admitted to this so why are we having this conversation? Your turn will come in His good timing.

And you also did not understand post #30? It doesn't get any easier than that to see the whole picture. But if blinded, you won't see or understand a thing.

I am aware of the sites many errors and this is one of them for most are of the prescient view which if followed out can be proven wrong. As it puts
man in control of his own destiny, but that is not the will of God, for that would allow man to be telling God what he does and doesn't want.
But since His thoughts are much greater to/for us than we can imagine He won't allow us to make those forever choices. They are already made by Him
We love Him for He first loved us. When you truly experience the new birth in the spirit you will understand.

It can be likened to a trip from LA to NYC. You begin and make a stop in Vegas, then Denver, then down to Amarillo, maybe New Orleans, possibly on to Atlanta,
then back to Louisville, then finally arrive at NYC. Didn't really matter that you made all those stops for you have arrived at the destination He intended for you
to arrive at in the end.
You started in disobedience according to His will and you will be made alive in Christ for Christs sake according to His will.

In light of you believing Jesus is God (Trinity issues) why then do you not believe it when He says:
John 15:16 YOU DID NOT CHOOSE ME, BUT I CHOSE YOU.........................
John 15:19 .............Yet because you are not of the world, BUT I CHOSE YOU OUT OF THE WORLD, therefore the world hates you.
I don't think your gonna be able to stand in front of the throne and tell Him you chose Him so that He would choose you in light of the above scripture?

By extension every disciple is chosen out of the world by God. The pardon has come, and so has the kingdom unto you.

Sam, If you will try to understand what I'm about to show you, then you will at least understand why we disagree with you.

Christ said that "many are called, but few are chosen." So how are they called in order for them to be chosen?

Romans 1:16
"For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek."

The "Gospel of Christ" is the power of God unto salvation. This Gospel must be heard in order for God to save anyone. As I told you before, "faith comes by hearing." It is the Gospel of Christ that we must hear in order to be saved.

The hearing of the Gospel of Christ is the "call." Remember, "many are called" this is the calling.

The "few that are chosen" are the ones who responded in a positive manner to the call, they are given the faith needed to believe that Gospel call.

The ones who reject that call, responding in a negative manner, cannot receive the faith needed to believe that Gospel call.

When Christ said "You have not chosen me, but I have chosen you," He was referring to them not being able to choose Him (total depravity) until they heard the Gospel and made the correct response, which allowed them to be given the faith they needed for Christ to choose/accept them for salvation.

All of this took place by the power of God through the hearing of the Gospel of Christ.

 

[Curtis]

What glory is there in sending anyone to a fire that is never put out?

God sends no one to hell fire, people by their own choice choose to not believe.

Besides that Jesus called those who choose not to believe children of the devil.

Joh 8:42 Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.
Joh 8:43 Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word.
Joh 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.
Joh 8:45 And because I tell you the truth, ye believe me not.

There will be no children of God in the lake of fire only the children of the devil.


Joh 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
Joh 3:19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
Joh 3:20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.
Joh 3:21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.

Rev 20:14 Then death and the grave were thrown into the lake of fire. This lake of fire is the second death.
Rev 20:15 And anyone whose name was not found recorded in the Book of Life was thrown into the lake of fire.

 

[Samson2020]

Christ said that "many are called, but few are chosen." So how are they called in order for them to be chosen?

Ok lets look at the two instances that Jesus used the phrase many be called but few are chosen.

In the first parable He used that phrase to describe the workers in the vineyard, which if looked at carefully would be those able to work in that capacity.

They represent people like Paul, John, Peter, Timothy etc....as these were CHOSEN to be the ministers of the Gospel of mans salvation, they all did the same
work as those chosen to do it today and all will receive the same reward at the end.
In this parable the many called are already amongst the elect, but few of them are chosen to be workers in the field of spreading the Gospel of God.
Example is Acts 1:22-24 the choosing of which of the two for the ministry. Or the choosing of Paul Acts 9:15-16
1 Co 3:9 "For we are Gods fellow workers; you are Gods field, you are Gods building"

The next parable is of those that were invited (called) to the wedding. Lets look at Matt 22:10 "So those servants went out into the highways and gathered
all and as many as they found, both bad and good: and the wedding WAS FURNISHED WITH GUESTS."

It is the wedding of the Kings Son unto His BRIDE that the guests were bidden to attend, it wasn't the BRIDE herself, of which those who are in Christ
are, thus the many that were called and the few who were chosen were simply guests at the wedding.

That was a very good question if I may say so. I do appreciate that for I learned from it as I suffered to read through everything written about the many and the few
online, what a wast of effort on their part.
I did not know what to say until late in the night and the revelation of the fact they were just the guests hit me, then looking at the workers I already knew
they were those chosen to be the ministers of God.
Needless to say it was a good night to learn. Again, thank you.

All the stuff you will read is these who were called were Israel that refused to come, then the Gentiles who eventually came etc... but the guests included
the BAD and the GOOD. It should be obvious that the guests were indeed not the Bride. The Bride is the elect lady as John puts it.
In Pauls writing in Rom 8:29-30 there is no aspect of chosen after the calling. It is simply predestinated, called, justified, and glorified, as they were to be
conformed to the Image of His Son by predestination. The time of their calling would come at Gods whim as well as the rest as they are perfected.

 

[Samson2020]

There will be no children of God in the lake of fire only the children of the devil.

Psa 82:6 I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the Most High.

This is a prophecy of when the plan of salvation is complete. If you go look at what I have written anywhere it all points to this as the conclusion that God
had preplanned before the world was formed.


The devil is the deceiver of the human race who was put in charge of maintaining the prison due to one act of disobedience by Adam, of the ones who are
imprisoned by God to disobedience. All of us Rom 11:32
Jesus came to set us all free. He bought us all from death with His own undeserved death and bought salvation with His own blood for all.
"For He died for ALL to be testified in due time". "Ye are bought with a price"
Are those who cannot hear Him still the children of the devil in their minds? Yes
So what causes the change from being a child of the devil, or prisoner of sin, to becoming a born again believer. The Bible is very clear that what causes
that does not come from within a man, Eph 2:8 and it is a gift, the gift you receive was bought and paid for By Jesus' own blood to make the transition
from child of the devil to child of God, that however doesn't happen until God decides your part living under condemnation is over and sends His plan
of salvation(gospel) to your ears and un-hardens your heart and un-blinds your eyes. That is what a man is incapable of doing for Himself for it was done
by the Father and you cannot undo what He has done.

Some would say that a damnable heresy is a heresy of damnation simply because it denies the Lords right to bring all that He died for into being one
with Him in Christ.
I have shown several places in the scripture where it says that all are to be made alive in Christ, or all have been justified unto life by what He did, not what
they/you do.
I know it's hard for anyone that truly believes they had a hand in their own salvation, but as the srcipture states it is a gift and therefore no man can boast as
boasting of your work of believing is just a work. So whether a work of the law or your acceptance for the reason you are an elect are both incorrect.

Gods elect are just that, HIS elect, not elected because man made a choice, it may seem that way, but do you have the Holy Spirit? Do you speak
in tongues just when praying privately, have you ever cast out an unclean Spirit, Do you know His voice? All these are signs of a true believer, His sheep.

I would love to hear your testimony.

 

[Curtis]

done.

Some would say that a damnable heresy is a heresy of damnation simply because it denies the Lords right to bring all that He died for into being one

In the end will be the “the great white throne judgement”

Rev 20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.v
Rev 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Who are these people that will be cast into the lake of fire?

 

[Charlie24]

In the end will be the “the great white throne judgement”

Rev 20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.v
Rev 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

The Scripture places all who are not saved and facing the second death in the Lake of Fire, as you have shown.

But the UR cannot show us where any of these eventually get out of the Lake of Fire.

It's wishful thinking on the part of the UR, it's not Biblical. But they ignore this on the thinking that God will in the end save everyone.

Then to top it off, as Sam has shown us in his last post, The UR places shame on us for not believing God will do it even though it is found nowhere in Scripture.

 

[Curtis]

boasting of your work of believing is just a work.

Nobody can claim it was their faith that they were saved all true faith is the faith of the Lord Jesus Christ.

Gal 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

Nobody can have faith in the Son of God until they first have the "faith OF the Son of God"

 

[Curtis]

The Scripture places all who are not saved and facing the second death in the Lake of Fire, as you have shown.

But the UR cannot show us where any of these eventually get out of the Lake of Fire.

It's wishful thinking on the part of the UR, it's not Biblical. But they ignore this on the thinking that God will in the end save everyone.

Then to top it off, as Sam has shown us in his last post, The UR places shame on us for not believing God will do it even though it is found nowhere in Scripture.

I think you have mistaken me for someone else.

 

[Samson2020]

Nobody can claim it was their faith that they were saved all true faith is the faith of the Lord Jesus Christ.

Gal 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

Nobody can have faith in the Son of God until they first have the "faith OF the Son of God"

Yes, which is sent in seed form "for the Father hath sent forth the Spirit of His Son into your hearts crying Abba Father."
This is why we are considered the SEED of Christ in Isaiah 59:21 assuming you can see who God is talking about/to, and it wasn't Isaiah.

 

[Curtis]

I know it's hard for anyone that truly believes they had a hand in their own salvation,

Sometimes a simple analogy helps in understanding God's choices.

Let's say God wants a family, which can also be likened to a "baseball team" with its team leader.

God tells everyone I am starting my own baseball team, (If God never tells anyone about his desire, and never gives anyone a choice no one could ever be saved)

The Lord God says, "Everyone who wants to be on my team raise your hand"

Then the Lord says, " Everyone with your hand up I choose you to be on my team"

Everyone else is on the other team.

All men must choose whom they will serve. ( whos team they want to be on)

God chooses his elect to be those who desire (make the decision) to become a son of God by the power God gives them which is his own faith. This information was known by God before the world began.

 

[complete]

How is a man saved?​

Hello @Samson2020,

'But God commendeth His love toward us,
in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
Much more then, being now justified by His blood,
we shall be saved from wrath through Him.
For if, when we were enemies,
we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son,
much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by His life.'
(Rom 5:8-10)

There seems to be some misunderstanding amongst some of us as this issue keeps coming up in various threads so lets hash it out.

Is it not an election according to grace? Rom 11:5

'Even so then at this present time also
there is a remnant according to the election of grace.'
(Rom 11:5)

This is written by Paul in relation to the elect remnant which had been called out by God from the nation of Israel at that time, he assures all such, that one day all Israel shall be saved.

​

Eph 2:8-9​

For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God. Not of works lest any man should boast.​

​

Ok so whether you want to say that the gift is grace or the faith is the gift or both or that salvation itself, being the end result, is the gift.​

This is how a man is saved. Grace bestowed to believe by faith which is also given. So all the above grace, faith, and salvation gifts.​

So salvation is as the verse says a gift.​

Now is the gift according to anything that a man does or doesn't do?​

No for a man is not allowed to boast as verse 9 states it is entirely Gods gift as 8 states.​

And as it is a gift from God can it be taken away?​

No because the gifts and the calling of God are without repentance. Rom 11:29​

The grace by faith salvation is a gift of God, it is available to all men, but not all will receive it, because not all will believe on the Lord Jesus Christ as their Saviour and Lord.

How does God decide which human He is going to gift salvation to?​

The Bible tells us plainly that it is for those, in this dispensation, for whom He predestined to be saved in it. Rom 8:29-30 Eph 1:5 Eph 1:11​

So as the election is according to grace and for those predestinated and has nothing to do with a mans desires or works what could it be called other than a gift?​

* Salvation is a gift, which is offered to all men, for it is not God's will that any should perish, but that all should come to a knowledge of His saving grace. Yet we know that unbelief will prevent many from receiving the gift of God, for it's reception is dependent on man believing what God has said in His word regarding His only begotten Son, the Lord Jesus Christ.

'For whom He did foreknow,
He also did predestinate
to be conformed to the image of his Son,
that He might be the firstborn among many brethren.
Moreover whom He did predestinate, them he also called:
and whom He called, them He also justified:
and whom He justified, them He also glorified.'
(Rom 8:29)

* God has foreknowledge, He knew beforehand those who would believe the gospel concerning His Son, and so He pre-destined such to be conformed to the image of His Son, He called, justified and glorified them in Christ Jesus on the basis of the all-sufficient sacrifice of His own Beloved Son.

'Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ,
Who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
According as He hath chosen us in Him before the foundation of the world,
that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love:
Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to Himself,
according to the good pleasure of His will,
To the praise of the glory of His grace, wherein He hath made us accepted in the beloved.
In Whom we have redemption through His blood,
the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of His grace;
Wherein He hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence;'
(Eph 1:3-8)

'In whom also we have obtained an inheritance,
being predestinated according to the purpose of Him
Who worketh all things after the counsel of His Own will:'
(Eph 1:11)

* This is spoken to the members of the Church which is His Body, 'the fulness of Him that filleth all in all'. Who have been blessed with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ. These were chosen 'before the foundation of the world', That they should be 'holy and without blame before Him in love' . He having pre-destined them unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to Himself. He having made them accepted in the beloved, they having received redemption and forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of His grace.

* The Church which is His Body is a new creation, created in Christ Jesus, they have died with Christ in God's estimation, been quickened, raised and ascended with Him and are sat at God's right hand in Christ Jesus in spirit.

* Following the final departure into unbelief of the nation of Israel at Acts 28, salvation was sent to the Gentiles (v.28) for they would receive it. Christ was now, 'in' or 'among' them, their hope of glory.

* These were already 'saved' and 'sealed'.

Can we earn it? NO
Can we ask for it? Sure but unless you were predestinated as the scripture states you'll have to wait until it is your time.
Can we beg for it? Sure, but same answer as above.
What can we do to speed up the election of ourselves? Nothing because it is all in Gods good timing, since it is His gift to you, you will receive it when He gives it
to you.
Can you refuse it, sure but its still yours as He will never repent of giving it to you. You may end up as one of the least of His sons but its still yours.

Are many at this time deceived into thinking they have been born again but are still spiritually dead? Absolutely, this is one of the biggest deceptions I see.
And they are very busy at creating more of the same. Spiritually dead and in name only Christians.

If you see salvation as anything other than a gift that cannot be earned tell us here what your concept of "how a man is saved" is.

'As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes:
but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.
For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.'
(Rom 11:28-29)

* Israel as a nation are the subjects of this verse, who are the elect nation, and are beloved of God for their 'Fathers' sakes. For Israel, though then, as now, in a Lo-ammi condition because of their unbelief, were by no means set aside permanently from God's plan and purpose: For His calling of them is 'without repentance', as are all of His gifts and callings. Those who are saved by God's grace are therefore 'sealed' and secure until the redemption of their bodies at the resurrection, unto life eternal.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[Samson2020]

Who are these people that will be cast into the lake of fire?

Those not yet written in the book of life as the first dominion of the kingdom comes only to those who are the elect of God in this dispensation. Mic 4:8 KJV or DBY
The second death as I have said many times needs to be looked at very carefully and not through the eyes of a carnal mind.
It is spiritual language, not literal.
Everything cast into that lake of fire is here with us today, governments, false religions, Satan, the grave, death etc... its the second death because its the beginning
of the second dispensation in which the second fruits will come to perfection as God has predetermined in it.

If you ever get past self righteousness and see what the role of the first fruits is during that time then WOW. It is impressive. Hidden Manna!

Hint Oba 1:21 Then saviors shall come up on Mt Zion to judge the mountains of Esau; and the kingdom shall be the Lords.

Who are the saviors? And why are they called saviors?
What is the purpose of their judging the mountains of Esau?
Remember it was by Gods choice that Esau was hated by God, not due to anything Esau had done for it was determined before the children were born,
just as those that are the vessels fitted to dishonor and destruction today by His choice. Rom 9:22

 

[Curtis]

Those not yet written in the book of life as the first dominion of the kingdom comes only to those who are the elect of God in this dispensation. Mic 4:8 KJV or DBY

So, these are people who are cast into the lake of fire in the end?

 

[Curtis]

Jesus said......

Mat 7:13 “You can enter God’s Kingdom only through the narrow gate. The highway to hell is broad, and its gate is wide for the many who choose that way.

Mat 7:14 But the gateway to life is very narrow and the road is difficult, and only a few ever find it. (NLT)

 

[Samson2020]

The grace by faith salvation is a gift of God, it is available to all men, but not all will receive it, because not all will believe on the Lord Jesus Christ as their Saviour and Lord.

They cannot believe for He hath blinded their eyes and hardened their heart. Jo 12:40 Hello Esau, they were ordained to be vessels to dishonor and destruction
before they were even born.

'But God commendeth His love toward us,
in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
Much more then, being now justified by His blood,
we shall be saved from wrath through Him.
For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son,

What does the verse say? You were reconciled to God by the death of His Son, not because you believed God, but because Jesus took your sentence to His cross.
Salvation of man occurred at the cross of Christ, when each person comes to that reality, individually, is controlled by the Father, as there is an order to this resurrection.
1 Co 15:23
He died for all to be testified in due time.
Do the verses you quote say anything about your acceptance of this? If youtruly believe from the heart then the Holy Spirit is given to you and you can't do that
unless the faith which justifies you is given to you by the Father. Therefore you are made righteous by God imputing it to you through the faith He gave you.
The righteousness of God. Rom 3:22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ UNTO ALL, and UPON ALL them that believe: for there is no difference.

Notice that the faith of Jesus Christ is UNTO ALL and it is also UPON all them that believe: for there IS NO DIFFERENCE. WHY? Because it was a gift from God that eventually goes to everyone. That is the promise made to Abraham fulfilled, which He swore by Himself for there was no greater thing to swear by.

What did Curtis say

Nobody can have faith in the Son of God until they first have the "faith OF the Son of God"

Bingo which is the fulfilling of the promise to each in his own order!


Jesus told us to seek ye first the kingdom of God and His righteousness. The kingdom is within as it is the new spiritual creature, and the righteousness of God is
the gifting of the faith to believe when He decides it should happen.

This is written by Paul in relation to the elect remnant which had been called out by God from the nation of Israel at that time, he assures all such, that one day all Israel shall be saved.

Account for the saving of ALL Israel. How is that possible? When? If you consider that Israel is the chosen of God, and we are all predestined to become gods children,
then who is left out?
Did not God send His Son to the cross because He loved the world. (mankind) not just a few, but all of them.

Go back to the original promise God gave to Abraham Gal 3:18 Heb 6:13 What was the promise? Gen 22:16-18
Is a remnant according to election the fulfillment of the promise God made to him? Not even close.
For the blessing that would come to the seed of Abraham was not according to his seed in the flesh under the law, but through the righteousness of faith. Rom 4:13
Which was withheld until Gal 3:23 After the law. And is shed to each person as God calls them unto the salvation purchased by Jesus enduring His cross.

 

[Samson2020]

Mat 7:14 But the gateway to life is very narrow and the road is difficult, and only a few ever find it. (NLT)

Jesus is the gate and only those who are led to Him by the Father can find it. Eventually all are led to Him to receive what He paid for, for them.
See post #55 Rom 3:22 section and your faith of the Son comment in it.

 

[Samson2020]

So, these are people who are cast into the lake of fire in the end?

It isn't the end, its the beginning of the second dispensation. And it isn't literal fire, it is what you see and hear every day around you, good and evil in full
operational mode, for without it there can be no perfecting of who God has called to be an overcomer.

 

[Curtis]

It isn't the end, its the beginning of the second dispensation. And it isn't literal fire, it is what you see and hear every day around you, good and evil in full
operational mode, for without it there can be no perfecting of who God has called to be an overcomer.

So, do you think there will be another judgment after the final Great white throne where all men will be rewarded for their wicked deeds, and cast into the lake of fire?

 

[Curtis]

Jesus is the gate and only those who are led to Him by the Father can find it. Eventually all are led to Him to receive what He paid for, for them.
See post #55 Rom 3:22 section and your faith of the Son comment in it.

Only a few ever find it. As Jesus tells us.

 

[Samson2020]

So, do you think there will be another judgment after the final Great white throne where all men will be rewarded for their wicked deeds, and cast into the lake of fire?

You'll have to provide a scripture for the word FINAL as it is the great Judgement where the books are opened and those not written in the book of life are
judged according to their works. But the word FINAL is not there.