Brother-Paul
Loyal
- Joined
- Jul 14, 2015
- Messages
- 4,002
Hi Sue
Hope you don't mind me adding this, except for moderators, all other users only have 30 minutes to edit a post
Bless you
If the church is “Raptured” in this generation, what are the people left still, in the “Institutionalized church”, called?
- Thread starter PloughBoy
- Start date
Hi Sue
Hope you don't mind me adding this, except for moderators, all other users only have 30 minutes to edit a post
Bless you
Dave M
Loyal
- Joined
- Oct 2, 2015
- Messages
- 4,714
people who say the rapture can happen at any time, how do you justify the fact that scripture says the dead in Christ have to rise first?
1 Thessalonians 4:16-17
For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord.
It also seems a lot of pre trib people say nothing has to happen before the rapture, it can take place at any time. I am not sure I agree with that, because scripture states that the rapture takes place at the last trumpet, and the dead have rise first, so thats 2 things that have to take place, unless I am missing something ????
1 Corinthians 15:52
51 Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed— 52 in an instant, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.
1 Thessalonians 4:15
For this we declare to you by a word from the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep.
so the people who have died will get there glorified bodies first, then return with the Lord at his second comming, then all who are left will be caught up in the air and receive there glorified bodies, and then Christ will return to earth conquer and the 1000 rule will begin, jus think out loud, this is not rock solid for me
1 Thessalonians 4:16-17
For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord.
It also seems a lot of pre trib people say nothing has to happen before the rapture, it can take place at any time. I am not sure I agree with that, because scripture states that the rapture takes place at the last trumpet, and the dead have rise first, so thats 2 things that have to take place, unless I am missing something ????
1 Corinthians 15:52
51 Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed— 52 in an instant, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.
1 Thessalonians 4:15
For this we declare to you by a word from the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep.
so the people who have died will get there glorified bodies first, then return with the Lord at his second comming, then all who are left will be caught up in the air and receive there glorified bodies, and then Christ will return to earth conquer and the 1000 rule will begin, jus think out loud, this is not rock solid for me
Samson2020
Active
- Joined
- Dec 4, 2016
- Messages
- 1,984
It's because they never read Matthew 24:29 "IMMEDIATELY AFTER THE TRIBULATION of those days................ 31- ...........they shall gather together his ELECT from
the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
It's all right there, with timing, but for some reason they can't see it.
Most do not want to suffer through the tribulation so they as the Bible says have heaped to themselves teachers having itching ears, and will turn away
from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables. 2 Ti 4:3-4
This pre, mid trib rapture is just one example of the fables spoken of. The word Rapture it would seem is only found in the DBY translation one time and is translated in
most other translations as "GREAT DELIGHT." Sng 2:3 and has nothing to do with being whisked away into heaven.
PloughBoy
Loyal
- Joined
- Dec 2, 2019
- Messages
- 9,782
When you are reading the English language of the Bible, you must pay attention to "English syntax" grammar. It is very important. Concerning biblical interpretation. And sometimes in translations, there is a bias leading, just a hint. Punctuation marks are very important. When not place or read correctly, it could change the whole meaning the intent or give a complete different story.
@Dave M. -- the rapture IS having the dead in Christ rising 1st and being followed immediately by those who are alive at that time. It's going to be a split-second event. 'in the twinkling of an eye' it will be happening. It's simply the Timing of that event that can be 'confusing'.
And the fact is Also -- that there have been many times of tribulation in this world. Trials and tribulation are part of life for both believers and non-believers. So Presently 'we' are in the midst of another time of trial and tribulation.
And the fact is Also -- that there have been many times of tribulation in this world. Trials and tribulation are part of life for both believers and non-believers. So Presently 'we' are in the midst of another time of trial and tribulation.
Dave M
Loyal
- Joined
- Oct 2, 2015
- Messages
- 4,714
right so when we know when that happens we can know when the rapture happens correct??
Dave M
Loyal
- Joined
- Oct 2, 2015
- Messages
- 4,714
if this is the case and I believe it is, then when we search scripture for when the dead are raised, we find it to be when Jesus returns. ( For full discloser I copied and pasted this scripture from another forum from a guy who did the leg work) so the rapture does not happen until the last day when Jesus returns from heaven with all the saints that have been dead and he now gives them glorified bodies
this make sense to me for now as I continue to dig, would love your thoughts on it @Sue D. thanks
John 11:24
Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.
John 6:54
Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.
John 6:44
No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
John 6:40
And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on
him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
John 6:39
And this is the Fathers will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose
nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
Bill
Loyal
- Joined
- Feb 24, 2018
- Messages
- 4,555
You are doing fine Sue , on your Soap Box .@Dave M.-- One thing I've understood is that the marriage supper of the Lamb is taking place in heaven during the time of the 7 yrs. happening down Here. That would indicate that the Church would have to be in heaven / raptured up and out of Here/ prior To those events. Right?!
@Br.Bear -- I've sort of wondered about that, too. Seems that there are those who see it as a 'badge of honor' to Live through all the mess that will be taking place down here during those 7 yrs. They Want to suffer as much as possible in the Name of Christ in order to be counted as 'worthy' -- maybe they equate it to bearing our cross as Christ bore His cross for 'us'. It would be the 'ultimate' of good works.
There are those who view a potential rapture as escapism. That it's really 'us' just wanting to avoid any real suffering.
If you're referring to the book itself -- there's a lot of symbolism-- things that don't make sense Now. If 'we' can't understand some of it, then it won't be happening. "We" tend to want to be able To understand what's going on around us. We feel more secure that way.
This present virus thing is showing that we Aren't in control. "We" are researching like crazy to find the source Of and can now blame it on China -- so 'we' are back in control with all the drastic measures being taken. And, well, that's another conversation that's already in another thread. But that's why there are those who don't want to believe in God. That puts 'someone' else as 'boss'. And we tend to want to be our Own boss.
Life, human nature, God's Word , being 'in charge' -- quite a combination. It's obvious that Someone Needs to be in charge. And Is in charge. God is the Only One with His Big Picture.
Need to get off my 'soap box'.
What this current event should be teaching us . How do we celebrate Gods Day ( sunday ) in the future , when the next crisis happens . I believe the devil is already making use of this , services around the world are band. Only a few pastors have stood up to the " Laws " . Many are getting arrested
Bill
Loyal
- Joined
- Feb 24, 2018
- Messages
- 4,555
Agreed .
All scripture agrees with itself .
Our problem . We keep thinking we understand Rev . As an example the Beast that comes from the Sea . I have to say , i was stumped by that for a long time , till Pres. Bush Sr. Used a phrase ' Sea Change ' .
Sea change occurs when the Whole world thinks differently almost overnight . Jesus created a sea change . Newton , and The Theory of Evolution were also Sea Changes . This pandemic is a Sea Change .
The Beast that comes from the Sea , is also a Sea Change
That first passage is about Jesus being the resurrection and the life " vs 25 "he who believes in Me, though he may die, he shall live. vs 26 "And whoever lives and believes in Me shall never die. Do you believe this?" vs 27 She said to Him, "yes, Lord, I believe that you are the Christ, the Son of God, who is to come into the world. "
That next passage "John 6:54 -- I've Never Ever understood that passage. It almost makes people sound like cannabals. I Think that that's the passage the RCC uses to do their communion. Transubstantiation. That , somehow, when the priest give the cup and wafer to a person -- it becomes the blood and body of Jesus Christ as they are crucifying Him every time they take communion,
I'll get back to the other passages later.
I'm thinking that they are referring to the 'hope' / security / we have that there Is life after our physical death. That our trust needs to be in Jesus Christ.
There are a couple of those passages that deal with eternal security. And with the Holy Spirit drawing the unsaved to the Father. A bit of irresistable grace included.
Dave M
Loyal
- Joined
- Oct 2, 2015
- Messages
- 4,714
my thought is the Resurrection is the key to understanding the timing of the rapture..
It seems from all the scripture I listed the Resurrection (when people get glorified bodies) is on the last day,
the last day to me is when Jesus returns 2nd coming,
then those who are left will be called up in the air to receive there glorified bodies.
I am really not 100% sure as it is not spelled out with certainty in scripture, and any final conclusion is only speculation on anyone's part IMO
One thing I find interesting is that Jesus always tells every one of the 7 churches to ENDURE to the end. but he does tell one church he is going to spare them from the tribulation that is coming on the whole world to text them.
Well -- not especially -- because the second coming of Jesus Christ is His 1,000 yrs reign on earth.
Well -- the 'end' Could be referring to the end of a person's Physical life. The life the born again believer will definitely be Different with Him in Heaven. And life here on earth will get worse and worse -- Lots and lots of activity taking place.
I was just looking back at the passages to the7 churches -- they conclude each with "To him who overcomes "... and then what He will give them. There is only one church , Thyatira -- "And he who overcomes, and keeps My works until the end, to him I will give power over the nations and lots more is said to them. that church group is an exception
Well -- the 'end' Could be referring to the end of a person's Physical life. The life the born again believer will definitely be Different with Him in Heaven. And life here on earth will get worse and worse -- Lots and lots of activity taking place.
I was just looking back at the passages to the7 churches -- they conclude each with "To him who overcomes "... and then what He will give them. There is only one church , Thyatira -- "And he who overcomes, and keeps My works until the end, to him I will give power over the nations and lots more is said to them. that church group is an exception
Brother-Paul
Loyal
- Joined
- Jul 14, 2015
- Messages
- 4,002
Greetings Sue,
Regarding John 6:54, you are right this is what the RCC fix on, it is what they call 'Mass', come to Mass and eat the flesh of Christ and drink His blood.
But to understand this we have to read the whole section. Or better still the whole chapter John 6:1-71 Jesus IS the Bread of Life.
I have not added in red all Jesus said, just the parts relating to those we are discussing.
John 6:25-59 (NIV2011)
25 When they found him on the other side of the lake, they asked him, “Rabbi, when did you get here?”
26 Jesus answered, “Very truly I tell you, you are looking for me, not because you saw the signs I performed but because you ate the loaves and had your fill.
27 Do not work for food that spoils, but for food that endures to eternal life, which the Son of Man will give you. For on him God the Father has placed his seal of approval.”
28 Then they asked him, “What must we do to do the works God requires?”
29 Jesus answered, “The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent.”
30 So they asked him, “What sign then will you give that we may see it and believe you? What will you do?
31 Our ancestors ate the manna in the wilderness; as it is written: ‘He gave them bread from heaven to eat.’”
32 Jesus said to them, “Very truly I tell you, it is not Moses who has given you the bread from heaven, but it is my Father who gives you the true bread from heaven.
33 For the bread of God is the bread that comes down from heaven and gives life to the world.”
34 “Sir,” they said, “always give us this bread.”
35 Then Jesus declared, “I am the bread of life. Whoever comes to me will never go hungry, and whoever believes in me will never be thirsty.
36 But as I told you, you have seen me and still you do not believe.
37 All those the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away.
38 For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me.
39 And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all those he has given me, but raise them up at the last day.
40 For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.”
41 At this the Jews there began to grumble about him because he said, “I am the bread that came down from heaven.”
42 They said, “Is this not Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? How can he now say, ‘I came down from heaven’?”
43 “Stop grumbling among yourselves,” Jesus answered.
44 “No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them, and I will raise them up at the last day.
45 It is written in the Prophets: ‘They will all be taught by God.’ Everyone who has heard the Father and learned from him comes to me.
46 No one has seen the Father except the one who is from God; only he has seen the Father.
47 Very truly I tell you, the one who believes has eternal life.
48 I am the bread of life.
49 Your ancestors ate the manna in the wilderness, yet they died.
50 But here is the bread that comes down from heaven, which anyone may eat and not die.
51 I am the living bread that came down from heaven. Whoever eats this bread will live forever. This bread is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.”
52 Then the Jews began to argue sharply among themselves, “How can this man give us his flesh to eat?”
53 Jesus said to them, “Very truly I tell you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you.
54 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.
55 For my flesh is real food and my blood is real drink.
56 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me, and I in them.
57 Just as the living Father sent me and I live because of the Father, so the one who feeds on me will live because of me.
58 This is the bread that came down from heaven. Your ancestors ate manna and died, but whoever feeds on this bread will live forever.”
59 He said this while teaching in the synagogue in Capernaum.
What Jesus said to the Jews was hard to swallow, especially as they were taking his words literally, they were understandably therefore disgusted and appalled. It is not hard to image why, drinking of any blood was forbidden (Lev. 17:10-14). Jesus told them that unless they did this repulsive thing they would have no life in them, they would not experience eternal life that comes from a relationship with the Father.
Having stated things negatively, Jesus then stated them positively...
Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day.
What Jesus was saying in highly metaphorical language,
Looking back a little to John 6:40 (NIV2011)
For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.
John 6:54
Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.
Comparing these two verses side by side, it becomes clear that eating Jesus’ flesh and drinking his blood is a metaphor for believing in him. Continuing the metaphor, Jesus said, For my flesh is real food and my blood is real drink. This tells us, Jesus is the source of true satisfaction; belief in him who gave his life for the world is the only way to satisfy human hunger and thirst for God.
The RCC has again got this out of context... as the Jews did. As we know elsewhere in the Bible Jesus used bread and wine as symbols of His Body and Blood
Luke 22:14-19 (NIV2011)
14 When the hour came, Jesus and his apostles reclined at the table.
15 And he said to them, “I have eagerly desired to eat this Passover with you before I suffer.
16 For I tell you, I will not eat it again until it finds fulfillment in the kingdom of God.”
17 After taking the cup, he gave thanks and said, “Take this and divide it among you.
18 For I tell you I will not drink again from the fruit of the vine until the kingdom of God comes.”
19 And he took bread, gave thanks and broke it, and gave it to them, saying, “This is my body given for you; do this in remembrance of me.”
Bless you.
Dave M
Loyal
- Joined
- Oct 2, 2015
- Messages
- 4,714
when all the saints come with Jesus at his second coming I would have to imagine that they are the ones that are raised from the dead first, I am seeing the meaning of raised from the dead as they get there glorified bodies
then those who are left on the earth will be caught up in the air to receive there glorified bodies,
then Jesus and all his saints will return to earth for the second coming.
It seems the rapture can not happen until those that are dead receive there glorified bodies first, and that does not happen until Jesus returns for his second comming.
1 Thessalonians 4:15
For this we declare to you by a word from the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep.
1 Corinthians 15:52
51 Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed— 52 in an instant, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet.(1 For the trumpet will sound,) the (2.dead will be raised imperishable) (3, and we will be changed.)
So here we see the trumpet will sound first
then those who have already died will receive the glorified bodies, when returning with Jesus (is my thought)
then the rapture
then those who are left on the earth will be caught up in the air to receive there glorified bodies,
then Jesus and all his saints will return to earth for the second coming.
It seems the rapture can not happen until those that are dead receive there glorified bodies first, and that does not happen until Jesus returns for his second comming.
1 Thessalonians 4:15
For this we declare to you by a word from the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep.
1 Corinthians 15:52
51 Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed— 52 in an instant, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet.(1 For the trumpet will sound,) the (2.dead will be raised imperishable) (3, and we will be changed.)
So here we see the trumpet will sound first
then those who have already died will receive the glorified bodies, when returning with Jesus (is my thought)
then the rapture
Bill
Loyal
- Joined
- Feb 24, 2018
- Messages
- 4,555
But isnt it also important to do this in rememberance of Jesus . As the very last line of your statement said . Jesus states , " do this in rememberance of me " so i cant fully blame the RCC because they think differently than we do . As they are doing as Jesus asked. I have to edit this as i forgot to add something i feel is important here .
After Jesus Resurrection. The Road to Amaus . Jesus walked with His Apostles, they did not recognize Him. He spoke the Scriptures ( it was like a fire burning in them they said later ) but they still did not recognize Him. It was not till He gave the Blessing and Broke the Bread , it was only then , that they recognized Him .
Something must be said for the Breaking of the Bread
Bill
Loyal
- Joined
- Feb 24, 2018
- Messages
- 4,555
Excellent Dave
Brother-Paul
Loyal
- Joined
- Jul 14, 2015
- Messages
- 4,002
Greetings Bill
It sure is Bill, Jesus tells us to do it in remembrance of Him, we are to take bread and wine in remembrance of Jesus, as He did at the Last Supper, they are symbols of His body and Blood, not literally eating and drinking His body.
Luke 22:14-20 (NKJV)
14 When the hour had come, He sat down, and the twelve apostles with Him.
15 Then He said to them, "With fervent desire I have desired to eat this Passover with you before I suffer;
16 for I say to you, I will no longer eat of it until it is fulfilled in the kingdom of God."
17 Then He took the cup, and gave thanks, and said, "Take this and divide it among yourselves;
18 for I say to you, I will not drink of the fruit of the vine until the kingdom of God comes."
19 And He took bread, gave thanks and broke it, and gave it to them, saying, "This is My body which is given for you; do this in remembrance of Me."
20 Likewise He also took the cup after supper, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in My blood, which is shed for you.
He took bread - He said this is my body (bread) which is given for you
He took the cup - He said This Cup (wine) is the New Covenent IN My Blood which is shed for you.
Bread and wine are symbols not actual flesh and blood as the RCC practice at mass.
Scripture is clear, the RCC choose to emphasise by cherry picking scripture.
From Post 354 above...
Looking back a little to John 6:40 (NIV2011)
For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.
John 6:54
Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.
Comparing these two verses side by side, it becomes clear that eating Jesus’ flesh and drinking his blood is a metaphor for believing in him. Continuing the metaphor, Jesus said, For my flesh is real food and my blood is real drink. This tells us, Jesus is the source of true satisfaction; belief in him who gave his life for the world is the only way to satisfy human hunger and thirst for God.
The RCC has again got this out of context... as the Jews did. As we know elsewhere in the Bible Jesus used bread and wine as symbols of His Body and Blood
Luke 22:14-19 (NIV2011)
14 When the hour came, Jesus and his apostles reclined at the table.
15 And he said to them, “I have eagerly desired to eat this Passover with you before I suffer.
16 For I tell you, I will not eat it again until it finds fulfillment in the kingdom of God.”
17 After taking the cup, he gave thanks and said, “Take this and divide it among you.
18 For I tell you I will not drink again from the fruit of the vine until the kingdom of God comes.”
19 And he took bread, gave thanks and broke it, and gave it to them, saying, “This is my body given for you; do this in remembrance of me.”
Upon the 2nd coming of Jesus Christ -- it will be His 1,000 reign and 'we' will be reigning with Him.
But no one can come Back with Him if they haven't been raptured up 1st. A trumpet-like sound Will happen and the dead in Christ Will rise 1st and then those people Alive will come after that and those will receive their glorified bodies. Those events will happen in an instant.
The gathering-up of the saints Will happen 1st -- they receive their glorified body at that time. And then --up in heaven -- there will be the marriage super of the Lamb. The Church / Bride of Christ/ will be united with Jesus Christ. And then Jesus Christ and all the born again people will return with Him to help rule.
I don't think that the trumpet-like sound at the rapture is the same as the trumpets that sound in Revelation.
