If the church is “Raptured” in this generation, what are the people left still, in the “Institutionalized church”, called?

[Brother-Paul]

Amen It is coming soon, very soon.

 

[Dave M]

You are the ones chosen to reach out to Mankind. From amoung you will come the 144 k

hey Bill I thought the 144 were all jewish?? and I thought they were all virgins?

anyways not worth arguing about thats for sure,

but do you have any biblical scripture for your stance on the second coming and the rapture being the same??

 

[Samson2020]

Samson -- what did you mean earlier in this thread about the New Testament being ratified?

Ratified means make the contract IN EFFECT. That happened when Jesus died. A testament or will is not in effect until the death of the testator.
Hebrews 9:16

 

[Sue D.]

How about the New Testament fulfills the Old Testament.

 

[Samson2020]

How about the New Testament fulfills the Old Testament.

The New Testament opened up the understanding of the Old, but without the death of Jesus the New would have never taken effect. Again Hebrews 9:16 explains a bit.

 

[PloughBoy]

What is normal . Lol the Two Witnesses will be normal

The word I use was “nominal” not “normal” they are not the same words, neither are they close to the same meaning. “Nominal Christians” has not the same meaning as “ Christians”
Why are you addressing the word “normal”?

 

[Sue D.]

The New Testament opened up the understanding of the Old, but without the death of Jesus the New would have never taken effect. Again Hebrews 9:16 explains a bit.

As do verses 11- 14.

 

[Dave M]

. So when the Tribulation comes

Revelation 3:10
Because you have kept my word about patient endurance, I will keep you from the hour of trial that is coming on the whole world, to try those who dwell on the earth.

 

[Brother-Paul]

How about the New Testament fulfills the Old Testament.

The OT points to the coming Messiah, all the prophets said was referring to this, to Jesus, The Christ.

The New Testament opened up the understanding of the Old, but without the death of Jesus the New would have never taken effect. Again Hebrews 9:16 explains a bit.

The NT is the fulfilment of prophesy, it opens up the understanding of the Old, it also fulfils the prophesies of the old, both views I believe are correct.

God used the prophets to proclaim His Truths of things that would happen in the future so that when they do happen we will know God said they would happen, He planned them, He was in them.

Isaiah 42:8,9 --- God declares new things before they spring forth.

Jeremiah 28:9 (NKJV)
As for the prophet who prophesies of peace, when the word of the prophet comes to pass, the prophet will be known as one whom the LORD has truly sent.

Luke 24:25-27 and 44-46 --- Jesus said that Old Testament prophets spoke about Him and He fulfilled their predictions.

John 5:46 --- Jesus claimed that Moses wrote about Him, therefore we should believe in Him.

2 Peter 1:20-21 (NKJV)
knowing this first, that no prophecy of Scripture is of any private interpretation,
for prophecy never came by the will of man, but holy men of God spoke as they were moved by the Holy Spirit.

John 13:19 (NKJV)
Now I tell you before it comes, that when it does come to pass, you may believe that I am He.

Jesus Himself was a prophet who predicted the future.

John 13:19 - Jesus predicted future events (here His betrayal by Judas) so that, when the predictions were fulfilled, people would believe in Him.

John 14:29 - He said things before they happened so that, when they came to pass, people would believe.

John 16:4 (NKJV)
But these things I have told you, that when the time comes, you may remember that I told you of them.
And these things I did not say to you at the beginning, because I was with you.

Your verse quote Hebrews 9:16 covers the subject well brother, I will include the addition verses also here, hope you don't mind

Hebrews 9:11-28 (NKJV)
11 But Christ came as High Priest of the good things to come, with the greater and more perfect tabernacle not made with hands, that is, not of this creation.
12 Not with the blood of goats and calves, but with His own blood He entered the Most Holy Place once for all, having obtained eternal redemption.
13 For if the blood of bulls and goats and the ashes of a heifer, sprinkling the unclean, sanctifies for the purifying of the flesh,
14 how much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered Himself without spot to God, cleanse your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

15 And for this reason He is the Mediator of the new covenant, by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions under the first covenant, that those who are called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance.
16 For where there is a testament, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.
17 For a testament is in force after men are dead, since it has no power at all while the testator lives.

18 Therefore not even the first covenant was dedicated without blood.
19 For when Moses had spoken every precept to all the people according to the law, he took the blood of calves and goats, with water, scarlet wool, and hyssop, and sprinkled both the book itself and all the people,
20 saying, "This is the blood of the covenant which God has commanded you."

21 Then likewise he sprinkled with blood both the tabernacle and all the vessels of the ministry.
22 And according to the law almost all things are purified with blood, and without shedding of blood there is no remission.

23 Therefore it was necessary that the copies of the things in the heavens should be purified with these, but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these.
24 For Christ has not entered the holy places made with hands, which are copies of the true, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us;
25 not that He should offer Himself often, as the high priest enters the Most Holy Place every year with blood of another--
26 He then would have had to suffer often since the foundation of the world; but now, once at the end of the ages, He has appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself.

27 And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment,
28 so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation.

Peace and Love

 

[Bill]

hey Bill I thought the 144 were all jewish?? and I thought they were all virgins?

anyways not worth arguing about thats for sure,

but do you have any biblical scripture for your stance on the second coming and the rapture being the same??

Yes I do it says the right in the Bible.

As far as the hundred and forty four thousand you do not understand what it means to be a Jew being a Jew is not being only born a Jew to be a Jew is one whose heart is circumsized and if your heart is circumcised you are also a Jew that also is in the scripture.

Let me ask you this the passage that reads where two are walking in the field and in one is Left Behind how do you know that the one left behind isn't the Christian it's always assumed that the one that leaves is the Christian. Why do Christians jump to the conclusion that they're the ones that are jumping off the planet has it never occurred to anyone that both people that are walking in the field are both Christians that one is taken and one is Left Behind has it never occurred to anyone about that.

I explained in another post or maybe it was this one earlier before that in every example of God removing the favored from the situation they weren't taken completely out of the problem they were somewhat protected but they still had to live their lives they were uprooted from their houses from where they had live from where they had worked and in every scenario taking out of that and actually went into a little bit more hardship. In every scenario the Israelites leaving Egypt Lot leaves Sodom Gomorrah Noah in the ark every one of them had to start over again from scratch basically and you can't tell me that that's not hardship especially in that day and age so where is the hardship that you are experiencing that you get the escape the planet from now if you were in China or you were in Africa or the Middle East there was all sorts of hardship where people are trying to kill you but you Dave and Sue and all the other ones on this chat line from Australia from America from Europe where is the hardship there is none what you're experiencing is not hardship you're struggling maybe but it's not hardship like you're not fearing for your lives

 

[B-A-C]

There is a such of a thing as a "spiritual Jew".

Rom 2:28; For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh.
Rom 2:29; But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that which is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter; and his praise is not from men, but from God.

But this isn't the same thing as biological Jew. If you aren't a member of the one of the tribes of Israel, you're not a biological Jew.

Rev 7:4 And I heard the number of those who were sealed, one hundred and forty-four thousand sealed from every tribe of the sons of Israel:
Rev 7:5 from the tribe of Judah, twelve thousand were sealed, from the tribe of Reuben twelve thousand, from the tribe of Gad twelve thousand,
Rev 7:6 from the tribe of Asher twelve thousand, from the tribe of Naphtali twelve thousand, from the tribe of Manasseh twelve thousand,
Rev 7:7 from the tribe of Simeon twelve thousand, from the tribe of Levi twelve thousand, from the tribe of Issachar twelve thousand,
Rev 7:8 from the tribe of Zebulun twelve thousand, from the tribe of Joseph twelve thousand, from the tribe of Benjamin, twelve thousand were sealed.

But many more than 144,000 are going to heaven. The very next verse says...

Rev 7:9; After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could count, from every nation and all tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed in white robes, and palm branches were in their hands;

Rev 14:3; And they *sang a new song before the throne and before the four living creatures and the elders; and no one could learn the song except the one hundred and forty-four thousand who had been purchased from the earth.
Rev 14:4; These are the ones who have not been defiled with women, for they have kept themselves chaste. These are the ones who follow the Lamb wherever He goes. These have been purchased from among men as first fruits to God and to the Lamb.
Rev 14:5; And no lie was found in their mouth; they are blameless.

 

[Bill]

The word I use was “nominal” not “normal” they are not the same words, neither are they close to the same meaning. “Nominal Christians” has not the same meaning as “ Christians”
Why are you addressing the word “normal”?

You said in responce to ' what are the Christians called who are left behind . ' i think sue said lost , and you replied normal . I was just wondering what is normal . As the witnesses will be here with many other unsung heroes of faith. I guess we are the ones you will call normal . ... i like that, thank you

 

[Bill]

There is a such of a thing as a "spiritual Jew".

Rom 2:28; For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh.
Rom 2:29; But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that which is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter; and his praise is not from men, but from God.

But this isn't the same thing as biological Jew. If you aren't a member of the one of the tribes of Israel, you're not a biological Jew.

Rev 7:4 And I heard the number of those who were sealed, one hundred and forty-four thousand sealed from every tribe of the sons of Israel:
Rev 7:5 from the tribe of Judah, twelve thousand were sealed, from the tribe of Reuben twelve thousand, from the tribe of Gad twelve thousand,
Rev 7:6 from the tribe of Asher twelve thousand, from the tribe of Naphtali twelve thousand, from the tribe of Manasseh twelve thousand,
Rev 7:7 from the tribe of Simeon twelve thousand, from the tribe of Levi twelve thousand, from the tribe of Issachar twelve thousand,
Rev 7:8 from the tribe of Zebulun twelve thousand, from the tribe of Joseph twelve thousand, from the tribe of Benjamin, twelve thousand were sealed.

But many more than 144,000 are going to heaven. The very next verse says...

Rev 7:9; After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could count, from every nation and all tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed in white robes, and palm branches were in their hands;

Rev 14:3; And they *sang a new song before the throne and before the four living creatures and the elders; and no one could learn the song except the one hundred and forty-four thousand who had been purchased from the earth.
Rev 14:4; These are the ones who have not been defiled with women, for they have kept themselves chaste. These are the ones who follow the Lamb wherever He goes. These have been purchased from among men as first fruits to God and to the Lamb.
Rev 14:5; And no lie was found in their mouth; they are blameless.

You were so close , and then blew it . Lol .

My friend a true Jew is one whose Heart is Circumcised . All of these come from the line of Abraham .

Stop thinking with your head , start seeing as God sees. God your Heart . And His Children love Him

 

[Dave M]

Left Behind how do you know that the one left behind isn't the Christian

freind scripture tells us, I am concerned you do not spend enough time in the word,

1 Thessalonians 4:17
Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord.

 

[Sue D.]

The dead in Christ go up 1st and then .... vs 15 - 17

 

[Sue D.]

@Bill -- B.A.C. -- is right on track. ( it even rhyms)

 

[Bill]

freind scripture tells us, I am concerned you do not spend enough time in the word,

1 Thessalonians 4:17
Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord.

 

[Bill]

You are confused this scripture passage that you're quoting is not a pre-tribulation Rapture this is the one where Jesus returns to earth and we are caught up to him this is the passage that I was telling you about that's in the scripture.

It says it right in front of you that we will meet Jesus in the air he's coming back down and we're going up to meet him there this is post tribulation read the first line of that Passage, it reads we who are alive who are left it's talking about the ones that have passed through the tribulation they have survived the time of the Antichrist that's what that is talking about

 

[Bill]

The dead in Christ go up 1st and then .... vs 15 - 17

Yes those who have died during the tribulation and that the hand of the Antichrist those who have passed on before us that's why it says that those who are Left Alive.

At what point now are you struggling so much that you have to leave the planet there is no struggle for you nothing your life is not a danger your life isn't being threatened your living high off the hog so to speak. Your life isn't being threatened your house hasn't been taken away and yet in the lives of lot in the lives of Moses in the lives of all those who were removed protected if you will their lives their experiences were much more dramatic for traumatic then anything that you're experiencing at this point so why would God take you out of this what you have now he has a great escape anyways because in every scenario God doesn't create a great escape for any of them he goes from basically the people that left Egypt like in the time of Moses they want from the frying pan Into the Fire they look 40 years in the desert totally dependent on God to feed them to give them water completely dependent they had to hit the rock for water they had to wait for the crows or whatever to bring the food to them. If you're thinking that the people from Moses had a great escape I don't quite see it that way God did protect them God was with them but they also had to live their lives and go through it there was no running away to heaven there was no running away. It was right in front of them and they lived it and this is the same thing that has to get through your head you're not going to run away and go to heaven you might as well become a Jehovah Witness cuz they believe that stuff too and sodas are the ones that follow up Louis Farrakhan they also believe that they're going to have a great escape and leave the planet. But God doesn't work that way we live through it

 

[Samson2020]

Matthew 24:29-31 "Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and
the powers of the heavens shall be shaken. And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the
Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory: And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet and they shall gather together his ELECT from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other."

For comparison:

Rev 6:9-11 "And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them THAT WERE SLAIN FOR THE WORD OF GOD, and for the testimony they held:
And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long O Lord, holy and true , dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? And white robes were given to every one of them; and it was said unto them that they should rest yet for a little season, UNTIL THEIR FELLOW SERVANTS ALSO AND THEIR BRETHREN, THAT SHOULD BE KILLED AS THEY WERE SHOULD BE FULFILLED.

Rev 6:12-13 " And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal , and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair and the moon became
as blood, And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth..........."

I don't see the stars of heaven falling to the earth more than once. These two accounts are descriptions of the same event. That event brings the gathering of the elect
and it is IMMEDIATELY AFTER THE TRIBULATION. And it is apparent from the 5th seal opening as to why this will not occur until AFTER.
THE FELLOW SERVANTS AND BRETHREN THAT HAVE THE WORD OF GOD AND A TESTIMONY SHOULD BE KILLED AS THOSE SOULS UNDER THE ALTAR WERE.

Now if you add Daniel 11:32-36 "And such as do wickedly to the covenant shall he corrupt by flatteries: but the PEOPLE THAT DO KNOW THEIR GOD SHALL BE STRONG
AND DO EXPLOITS. And they that understand among the people shall instruct many: YET THEY SHALL FALL BY THE SWORD, AND BY FLAME , BY CAPTIVITY, AND BY
SPOIL, MANY DAYS. Now when they shall fall, they shall be holpen with a little help: but many shall cleave to them with flatteries. AND SOME OF THEM OF UNDERSTANDING SHALL FALL, TO TRY THEM, AND TO PURGE, AND TO MAKE THEM WHITE, EVEN TO THE TIME OF THE END; because it is yet for a time appointed."
"And the king shall do according to his will: and he shall exalt himself, and magnify himself above every God, and shall speak marvelous things against
the God of gods........
added to show that it is during the second half of the anti Christ's seven yr period that this takes place.

ROMANS 12:1 " I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that you PRESENT YOUR BODIES A LIVING SACRIFICE, HOLY, ACCEPTABLE UNTO GOD,
WHICH IS YOUR REASONABLE SERVICE.

Hope this helps settle the question in your mind as to when and why. Laid out almost entirely by scripture not opinion.

Now for opinions sake I would say that the pre-tribbers ,who have it wrong, will be the great falling away when they see the tribulation taking place and will lose what faith if any they had. These will also betray the true Christians, as they will now believe the whole thing was a lie. Example is Santa Clause or the Tooth Fairy that your parents told you about but when you grew up you found out that both were a lie so can you believe anything they said that requires faith as you have not experienced it yet?

On the other hand those that do know God by experience don't care as to when they leave or how, they are just here to do their Fathers will whatever that may be.
"I come to do thy will O God" The MIND OF CHRIST.

I laid this all out already in the post above #85. There is no THIRD coming. He comes to begin the Kingdom reign and we are changed into his likeness at that time.