immunisation

[MsMree]

Thank you!

Sorry again for the tight lipped tone.

Looking forward to discussing whether vaccinations suppress the immune system and whether there are benefits to vaccinations.

Sleep well.

 

[amanda123]

O no no no

This is so confusing

It has turned into an argumentative debate and is not helping me attall.

thank you for the responses but this is not what i expected.

 

[MsMree]

Amanda it's important to understand that people tend to have strong feeling about this. Very often you have pro vaccination supporters talking about the person they know who suffered badly cause they were not vaccinated and the anti vaccination supporters talking about the people they know who suffered badly cause they were vaccinated.

As with all topics there are extreme views and there are well reasoned well educated views. I am not suggesting my view is not extreme, I am not suggesting my view is the only well reasoned well educated one. Peace Seeker tells me he has spent years looking into this matter also.

I do suggest you look into this matter of your children's health for yourself to become convinced, rather than taking anyone here's word for it.

All the best to you, I sympathise with your plight.

 

[Fraction]

Billions????? Surely you are joking.

No I am not joking. Surely you can understand the amount of people that have existed on this planet since the invention of medicines and vaccines. Lol

 

[Peace Seeker]

No I am not joking. Surely you can understand the amount of people that have existed on this planet since the invention of medicines and vaccines. Lol

It's good to see that you like to laugh, I know I'm a funny guy. But laughing at someone isn't humility is it? - it usually masks insecurity (or arrogance).

Proverbs 18:13
He that answereth a matter before he heareth it, it is folly and shame unto him.

So please try to keep that in mind before you feel the urge to call someone else a conspiracy theorist right from the get-go, like you did to me. :wink:

“All truth passes through three stages. First it is ridiculed, then it is violently attacked, then it is held to be self-evident.” – Arthur Schopenhauer

Also, they laughed at Noah too............

Now, as to your comment, are we talking about 20th century vaccinations and modern medicine? I ask this because you referred to the invention of medicines and all the people that have existed on this planet. I don't see the connection between vaccinations and the invention of medicine, which started in Mesopotamia 4,000-5,000 years ago.

Lastly, to clarify, when I said you must be joking, I was questioning the veracity of your statement that billions of people have been saved by vaccines, not how many people may or may not have received them. And I have not stated anywhere that vaccines have not helped people in the past.

 

[Peace Seeker]

O no no no

This is so confusing

It has turned into an argumentative debate and is not helping me attall.

thank you for the responses but this is not what i expected.

Amanda, it was not my intention to confuse or upset you in any way. I am very sorry that this has happened. You asked for advice and I gave it, because I believe I have valid info. I could have just replied to your post and said "listen to your husband", but I thought I should do more than just that.

If nothing else, I hope you and your husband don't take your decision lightly, and that you try to do a little bit of research for your children's sake. I wish you the best in this trying situation!

 

[Peace Seeker]

Thank you!

Sorry again for the tight lipped tone.

Looking forward to discussing whether vaccinations suppress the immune system and whether there are benefits to vaccinations.

Sleep well.

No worries, and yes I slept well.

To try to continue where we left off, I will just say it is not vaccinations, per se, that I am against. What I am wary of is the outright fraud, disinformation and conflict of interest that is rampant in the drug industry. As I stated before, I do not trust these people. They do not care about me or you. I take personal responsibility for my health, which means I do not blindly accept any of their (often bogus) claims without looking into them first. And yes, I am aware of your positions and that you understand the position I just reiterated.

Since I have to start somewhere, I will respond to your remark that I have only been focusing on the "fear factor". To which my reply is, I am not in fear at all, I just make educated choices for myself. And not trusting someone (because of what you know about him) is not fear.Fear sells when it comes to drug companies, but I am not buying.
:wink: And to further that point, more often than not it is the fearful who buy. The people that get whipped up in the contrived mass hysteria.

Anyway, I will try to address your query about how vaccines suppress immune system function. I say try, because it would take a long explanation to cover the way the immune system works, it's functions, etc. So hopefully this relatively short version of an answer will suffice.

I'm sure everyone understands that the purpose behind injecting somone with a live virus is so that the body will produce antibodies. That's pretty straight forward. But what's not straight forward is how they add certain substances to the vaccines called adjuvants.

The most common adjuvants for human use are aluminium hydroxide, aluminium phosphate and calcium phosphate. However, there are a number of other adjuvants based on oil emulsions, products from bacteria (their synthetic derivatives as well as liposomes) or gram-negative bacteria, endotoxins, cholesterol, fatty acids, aliphatic amines, paraffinic and vegetable oils. Recently, monophosphoryl lipid A, ISCOMs with Quil-A, and Syntex adjuvant formulations (SAFs) containing the threonyl derivative or muramyl dipeptide have been under consideration for use in human vaccines.

Many professionals believe that it is a combination of these aduvants mixed together that are affecting children so adversely. This is known as synergistic toxicity and can worsen when a child receives multiple vaccines.

So it is not the polio virus (or whatever the vaccine is for) that is the problem, it is the added chemicals that are. Like in a high-school chemistry lab experiment, it is when combinations of chemicals are added that things bubble over, explode, etc. from the chemical reaction.

This same premise holds true with what can happen to a child when he receives multiple vaccines. When a child receives a vaccination he receives a mixture of micro-organisms, adjuvants and chemical substances acting as preservatives. If he receives a multi-vaccination he receives these substances en mass, which brings us back to the synergistic toxicity (a volatile chemical reaction).

So, how does the vaccine's combination of adjuvants, chemicals, etc. affect the immune function? Well, each of these chemicals in their own right have a toxic effect on the body, never mind the combination of them. But more importantly, the route of entry for a vaccine is different to a naturally occurring disease. Most natural diseases would enter through the mouth or the nasal cavity, not the skin.

Vaccination breaks the skin with a needle and injects foreign matter into the blood supply. This bypasses the skin’s role in immune function, as well as the tonsils, the mucous membranes, etc.

Normally, the body produces extra antibodies after being alerted by it's built-in defense mechanisms that there is an impending infection. Therefore, if the infection takes hold, there will be an army of white blood cells, ready to neutralize the infection.

But in the case of vaccinations, this infection goes straight to the blood, with no prior build-up of defenses for the body, and as such there are no extra immune cells to deal with it.
Also - and this is EXTREMELY IMPORTANT - with vaccination there is more than one disease present (e.g. the MMR), whereas a child would never contract 3 diseases at the same time. This puts alot of additional strain on the immune system, especially on that of a young child whose immune system is still forming.

What problems can this cause? In the normal transmission of a virus to the body, only a small percentage of the body's immune system’s resources are used; whereas, in the case of vaccination, a much larger percentage is used, up to 70% in some cases. And because the body has no extra antibodies waiting to counter the vaccine, it can go into overdrive in an attempt to deal with the situation, taking much needed vitamins away from bones and other organs, to use for the production of more antibodies.

Basically, vaccinations are an unnatural means of introducing disease into the body. A healthy body doesn't need help to fight infection and disease, only an UNHEALTHY one does. And although this may be a whole other subject, it nonetheless bears mentioning that the toxic effect of the pollutants - pesticides, GMOs, carcinogens, etc. - in our food, soil, air we breathe, have damaged and weakened our immune systems.

And when we add a vaccine of chemicals, via an unnatural entry route, it further can complicate things. Also, we only see the outside of our body, not the inside. And just because we don't come down with Polio (or whatever other disease we are vaccinated against) , it doesn't mean there aren't any hidden health problems - that may take many years to surface - that have been caused by the vaccinations.

The massive surge of antibodies created by the vaccine can also cause the body to become hypersensitive and this is responsible for the increase in allergies and auto-immune diseases. Allergies are an over-exposure to toxic elements which the body is unable to cleanse itself of. It is unable, because it is overloaded beyond it's ability to deal with the situation.

If the pancreas, adrenals, pituitary gland and the spleen become over-stimulated by vaccination, this can cause the body to become toxic and unable to regulate itself. Which can result in heart disease, diabetes, asthma and bronchitis, to name a few. Over-stimulating the adrenals also causes a decrease in circulation of blood around the body, and atrophying of vascular vessels.
It is in this state of dysfunction and chemical overload, from vaccines, pollution, junk food, pharmaceutical drugs, etc., that our bodies become less able to stay healthy.

Now, of course, people will counter this by relating how much vaccines have helped so-and-so, or populations in general. And once again, I am not disputing that they help, at least as far as we can tell anyway. Somewhere down the road we will really know how much help or damage they have caused, as it usually takes many years for problems to surface. Relapses and illnesses related to the vaccine are not reported, only the here and now successes.

To continue the discussion, in the time immediately following vaccination, when extra vitamins are being used up to fight the vaccine, this may actually make the person more susceptible to the disease and what may occur is what is termed, "provocation disease", which means disease caused by vaccines.

Live vaccines are more likely to pass on the disease to the recipient's close contacts, as the viruses are excreted from the body for up to 3 weeks after each shot. The only cases of polio in western countries were caused by the vaccine.

Vaccine-caused diseases are often more severe than the naturally occurring disease. For instance, ATYPICAL measles, only acquired by vaccinated children, is much more serious because the vaccine suppresses the child’s rash, which is his means of excreting the toxins, and this leads to the toxins being pushed deeper into the body and affecting the major organs and sometimes the brain, as atypical measles encephalitis.

Vaccine viruses can also attach themselves to cells, organs and brain tissue and cause cancers, disabilities and brain injury, as in the case of a boy who became autistic and had a seizure disorder after his MMR jab at 15 months. Great Ormand Street Children’s Hospital tested him at 13 years of age and found remains of vaccine viruses in the injured parts of his brain. (The Sunday Express, 6 October 2002).
Antibodies to brain tissue have also been found in blood tests of autistic children.

There is so much more info available on the damage vaccines do, but it is way too technical to even bother trying to extrapolate upon here. Stuff about T-cells, blood leukocytes, etc.

I'll just end this with a brief comment about Tamiflu. Until recently, there were no drugs to treat colds and flu, other than acetaminophen for pain, with rest and plenty of fluids.

So the drug companies began to make anti-viral medications aimed at actually stopping flu. Roche made Tamiflu and when it was released, the public eagerly bought it up, thinking their days of feverish misery were over. However, they quickly found out that instead of stopping the flu, Tamiflu was simply supposed to reduce the number of days you suffered from it. So it turned out to be a flop.

The public weren't interested. They wanted a quick fix, to take a pill and be magically well - the same senario they expect with vaccination. Just take some shots and never get diseases even if you eat junk food, fill yourself with pills, never exercise and don't drink water. It's okay because you've had your shots.

Because of this quick fix mentality, the drug didn't sell as well as Roche were hoping. BUT :

Then in 2005, the D.O.H. predicted an avian flu pandemic in which they said millions could die ( eek! the sky is falling!! save me!!) and the British government bought up 20 MILLION doses of Tamiflu,in October of that year, at a cost of 2 BILLION pounds to 'be prepared' for this disastrous avian flu pandemic that was all but a given to come.

Well, the avian flu pandemic never happened and the DOH were left with 20 million doses of Tamiflu that they didn't know what to do with.

Then they forecasted a swine flu pandemic and guess what? Tamiflu just happens to be the magic treatment for swine flu. It's a really good game they've got going, but one that plays with not only our money but our lives.

And guess what else? The Roche company walked away the winners, laughing all the way to the bank! And I will not name the numerous government officials that have personal stock investments in, and made a fortune in these companies, as I am loathe to have to respond to the ubiquitous cackles of "conspiracy theory!" :wink:

One good thing to do in your research is look up the U.S. Congressional Records, non-mainstream news articles, etc. For instance, the 108th U.S. Congress House of Representatives Subcommittee on Human Rights and Wellness hearing of September 10, 2003, is quite eye-opening.

 

[Brother Mike]

AlterNet / By Daniela Perdomo
100,000 Americans Die Each Year from Prescription Drugs, While Pharma Companies Get Rich


Prescription drugs taken as directed kill 100,000 Americans a year. That's one person every five minutes. How did we get here?
June 25, 2010 |


How many people do you know who regularly use a prescription medication? If your social group is like most Americans', the answer is most. Sixty-five percent of the country takes a prescription drug these days. In 2005 alone, we spent $250 billion on them.
I recently caught up with Melody Petersen, author of >Link Edit an in-depth look at the pharmaceutical companies that have taken the reins of our faltering health care system by cleverly hawking every kind of drug imaginable. We discussed how this powerful industry has our health in its hands.
Daniela Perdomo: Your book includes some staggering stats. For example, 100,000 Americans die each year from prescription drugs — that’s 270 per day, or, as you put it, more than twice as many who are killed in car accidents each day. Could you elaborate on this? Are these people abusing their prescription drugs or is this a sign of prescription meds gone bad?
Melody Petersen: The study estimating that 100,000 Americans die each year from their prescriptions looked only at deaths from known side effects. That is, those deaths didn’t happen because the doctor made a mistake and prescribed the wrong drug, or the pharmacist made a mistake in filling the prescription, or the patient accidentally took too much. Unfortunately, thousands of patients die from such mistakes too, but this study looked only at deaths where our present medical system wouldn’t fault anyone. Tens of thousands of people are dying every year from drugs they took just as the doctor directed. This shows you how dangerous medications are.
DP: You write about a growing market for drugs for children. You say we know little about the long-term effects of prescription meds on kids. Let’s talk particularly about depression medications and ADHD meds, which seem to be what kids are mostly prescribed.
MP: In recent years, sales of drugs for children have been the industry’s fastest growing business. Doctors now prescribe pills to children for all kinds of conditions — from high cholesterol to anxiety. The market for ADHD drugs has long been a big opportunity for the industry. More recently, the companies have had their sales reps urge doctors to prescribe antidepressants, antipsychotics and other psychiatric meds to children. The result: our kids take more of those medicines than children in other countries. For example, a study last year found that American children take three times more attention deficit medications and antidepressants than children in Europe.

DP: Could you tell me how the prescription med industry is in bed with doctors?
MP: The industry spends hundreds of millions of dollars on physicians every year. In one survey, 9 out of 10 doctors said they had recently taken something of value from the drug industry. And some of those doctors take hundreds of thousands of dollars each year from the industry. The drug companies pay doctors to be their so-called consultants. They also pay them to sit on corporate advisory boards and to give lectures to other doctors. They pay for up to 80 percent of the continuing medical education that doctors need to maintain their licenses. If you ask a doctor if this is a problem, they will more than likely tell you no. But the studies show that even a small gift will sway doctors to write a prescription for a certain drug. The truth is that doctors are no longer independent gatekeepers who keep us safe from drugs we don’t need. Far too many of them are financially tied to the industry. They are writing the prescriptions that their financial backers want them to write.
-------------------------------------------------------------


Always seek God before putting anything in your temples.


Jesus Is Lord.

 

[Peace Seeker]

AlterNet / By Daniela Perdomo
100,000 Americans Die Each Year from Prescription Drugs, While Pharma Companies Get Rich


Prescription drugs taken as directed kill 100,000 Americans a year. That's one person every five minutes. How did we get here?
June 25, 2010 |


How many people do you know who regularly use a prescription medication? If your social group is like most Americans', the answer is most. Sixty-five percent of the country takes a prescription drug these days. In 2005 alone, we spent $250 billion on them.
I recently caught up with Melody Petersen, author of >Link Edit an in-depth look at the pharmaceutical companies that have taken the reins of our faltering health care system by cleverly hawking every kind of drug imaginable. We discussed how this powerful industry has our health in its hands.
Daniela Perdomo: Your book includes some staggering stats. For example, 100,000 Americans die each year from prescription drugs — that’s 270 per day, or, as you put it, more than twice as many who are killed in car accidents each day. Could you elaborate on this? Are these people abusing their prescription drugs or is this a sign of prescription meds gone bad?
Melody Petersen: The study estimating that 100,000 Americans die each year from their prescriptions looked only at deaths from known side effects. That is, those deaths didn’t happen because the doctor made a mistake and prescribed the wrong drug, or the pharmacist made a mistake in filling the prescription, or the patient accidentally took too much. Unfortunately, thousands of patients die from such mistakes too, but this study looked only at deaths where our present medical system wouldn’t fault anyone. Tens of thousands of people are dying every year from drugs they took just as the doctor directed. This shows you how dangerous medications are.
DP: You write about a growing market for drugs for children. You say we know little about the long-term effects of prescription meds on kids. Let’s talk particularly about depression medications and ADHD meds, which seem to be what kids are mostly prescribed.
MP: In recent years, sales of drugs for children have been the industry’s fastest growing business. Doctors now prescribe pills to children for all kinds of conditions — from high cholesterol to anxiety. The market for ADHD drugs has long been a big opportunity for the industry. More recently, the companies have had their sales reps urge doctors to prescribe antidepressants, antipsychotics and other psychiatric meds to children. The result: our kids take more of those medicines than children in other countries. For example, a study last year found that American children take three times more attention deficit medications and antidepressants than children in Europe.

DP: Could you tell me how the prescription med industry is in bed with doctors?
MP: The industry spends hundreds of millions of dollars on physicians every year. In one survey, 9 out of 10 doctors said they had recently taken something of value from the drug industry. And some of those doctors take hundreds of thousands of dollars each year from the industry. The drug companies pay doctors to be their so-called consultants. They also pay them to sit on corporate advisory boards and to give lectures to other doctors. They pay for up to 80 percent of the continuing medical education that doctors need to maintain their licenses. If you ask a doctor if this is a problem, they will more than likely tell you no. But the studies show that even a small gift will sway doctors to write a prescription for a certain drug. The truth is that doctors are no longer independent gatekeepers who keep us safe from drugs we don’t need. Far too many of them are financially tied to the industry. They are writing the prescriptions that their financial backers want them to write.
-------------------------------------------------------------


Always seek God before putting anything in your temples.


Jesus Is Lord.

Thanks for this contribution! It is just one example of an astounding amount of similar information that could be provided. I was going to post a list of people who died from vaccines - their names, ages, what vaccine they took, how they died, etc., but I though it over and decided it would upset the more sensitive readers. It is a huge list, and quite sobering to the say the least.

It kind of reminds me of the premise in the horror movie "Saw". In that movie there were 2 people locked in a room, that basically had to decide who should live among them (only one of them was allowed to live). And the 2 people were told by their abductor that they would have to kill the other guy in the room with him, or their family would be killed.

So, to me, the vaccines have a similar dark side to them, in that - like in the case of the movie - someone gets to live, yet someone will die. Aren't we glad it is always someone else that dies??? And if it was OUR child that died, what side of the vaccine debate would we be on?

 

[MsMree]

Okay, now this is something good to work with, thank you Peace Seeker for the time you took in both reading and replying. Let's look at this stuff:

Since I have to start somewhere, I will respond to your remark that I have only been focusing on the "fear factor". To which my reply is, I am not in fear at all, I just make educated choices for myself. And not trusting someone (because of what you know about him) is not fear.Fear sells when it comes to drug companies, but I am not buying.
:wink: And to further that point, more often than not it is the fearful who buy. The people that get whipped up in the contrived mass hysteria.

If I trust you and take you at your word that you are not fearful then I guess you will trust me and take me at my word when I say I am not fearful. I guess that there are people who choose to vaccinate out of fear and those who choose not to vaccinate out of fear and neither of us are in either of those categories. Good. Fear is useless.

Many professionals believe that it is a combination of these aduvants mixed together that are affecting children so adversely. This is known as synergistic toxicity and can worsen when a child receives multiple vaccines.

I guess the main thing I take issue with in regards to this concept is that firstly: if there was a formula of toxins that combined to pose serious and significant danger to vaccine receivers then I think it's reasonable to expect that it would be able to be subjected to scientific testing. Yes, I understand the body is in many ways complex and mysterious, but I don't think that it's unrealistic to say: "if chemicals x, y and z are combining to pose risk, then I want to see the cause and effect". I want to see it having a reliable, measurable outcome on a statistically significant number of vaccine receivers before I am inclined to feel concerned about it. Cause before that happens I am reading the information as "this could possibly happen, doesn't it sound plausible and terrible" to which my answer is "yes it sounds plausible and terrible, if you can prove that it is occurring that way I am interested in that proof". I hope you can see how this is reasonable and don't feel I am being willfully ignorant, it's not a matter of ignoring the theories, I just would not act based on them without proof.

So it is not the polio virus (or whatever the vaccine is for) that is the problem, it is the added chemicals that are. Like in a high-school chemistry lab experiment, it is when combinations of chemicals are added that things bubble over, explode, etc. from the chemical reaction.

Secondly I take minor issue with the bubble over and explode analogy, only because these are inert materials which when combined do not bubble over and explode and that is something that has been tested and proven. There may be chemical reactions which result from their combination, but as before, I want to know what is going on, not just a vague "these things are combining and harming your child". "X is combining with y and when this happens we can see that z happens in a statistically significant portion of the vaccine receivers."

This same premise holds true with what can happen to a child when he receives multiple vaccines. When a child receives a vaccination he receives a mixture of micro-organisms, adjuvants and chemical substances acting as preservatives. If he receives a multi-vaccination he receives these substances en mass, which brings us back to the synergistic toxicity (a volatile chemical reaction).

It's not like somehow everyone is unaware that the vaccines are given multiple ones at a time. Researchers are aware of that. Are you trying to tell me that you know for a fact that no research has ever been done in this field of interactions between vaccines?

So, how does the vaccine's combination of adjuvants, chemicals, etc. affect the immune function? Well, each of these chemicals in their own right have a toxic effect on the body, never mind the combination of them. But more importantly, the route of entry for a vaccine is different to a naturally occurring disease. Most natural diseases would enter through the mouth or the nasal cavity, not the skin.

Vaccination breaks the skin with a needle and injects foreign matter into the blood supply. This bypasses the skin’s role in immune function, as well as the tonsils, the mucous membranes, etc.

Fair enough. Of course this is true. But is there anything to show that it actually poses a higher risk? Rather than simply being an unnatural way of contracting disease? For the most part nature is superior, but that is no reason to avoid something because it does not happen in nature if there are other benefits.

Normally, the body produces extra antibodies after being alerted by it's built-in defense mechanisms that there is an impending infection. Therefore, if the infection takes hold, there will be an army of white blood cells, ready to neutralize the infection.

But in the case of vaccinations, this infection goes straight to the blood, with no prior build-up of defenses for the body, and as such there are no extra immune cells to deal with it.
Also - and this is EXTREMELY IMPORTANT - with vaccination there is more than one disease present (e.g. the MMR), whereas a child would never contract 3 diseases at the same time. This puts alot of additional strain on the immune system, especially on that of a young child whose immune system is still forming.

I REALLY don't want to sound like a broken record! All these points are indeed concerning of course. But to make the step from concerning to something I need to act upon there needs to be more than a concern that this is what is happening. Yes, in nature people wouldn't get all three at once, yes, often people are vaccinated with more than three at a time. It DOES sound concerning. Can we prove there is reason for concern?

What problems can this cause? In the normal transmission of a virus to the body, only a small percentage of the body's immune system’s resources are used; whereas, in the case of vaccination, a much larger percentage is used, up to 70% in some cases. And because the body has no extra antibodies waiting to counter the vaccine, it can go into overdrive in an attempt to deal with the situation, taking much needed vitamins away from bones and other organs, to use for the production of more antibodies.

Sounds concerning. Can we be sure that the risk of this happening outweighs the benefit of not contracting the disease?

A healthy body doesn't need help to fight infection and disease, only an UNHEALTHY one does.

You will find that healthy and unhealthy people used to frequently be injured or die from diseases that vaccinations are now available for.

And just because we don't come down with Polio (or whatever other disease we are vaccinated against) , it doesn't mean there aren't any hidden health problems - that may take many years to surface - that have been caused by the vaccinations.

It might. But until it does...

Look I get how you must be feeling. There is so much complex stuff that interacts with our bodies that wouldn't have done so 2000, 4000 years ago. But there is literally no way to know or guess what is going to effect you how. You could avoid it all as much as possible; the stuff in the water, air, food, medicine, clothing, products we use... But I think it would not lead to a profitable outcome for yourself.

Just as an aside; what is the goal here? Our bodies are tents. Whether we vaccinate or don't vaccinate we are going to get sickness, die eventually. Surely the goal is just good stewardship til we give up the tent for the house. I accept that good stewardship could come from either vaccinating or not vaccinating. I just want to keep it in perspective. We won't get a medal for the purest tents... I'm pretty sure. I have seen the effects of the serious diseases that most of the major vaccines were developed to immunise us from. Based on a risk and benefit assessment I choose not catching or passing on disease to body being possibly contaminated in an as yet unmeasurable way.

And once again, I am not disputing that they help, at least as far as we can tell anyway.

I think this is an extremely important thing worth not losing sight of. We have a proven positive outcome, and a lot of meaningful concerns. The reason I choose to conscientiously vaccinate is that I am okay with going with the proof until we have better proof. I think this is the way we approach most other things in life. Innocent until proven guilty. You might not condemn a guilty man soon enough with this method, but you sure won't condemn an innocent man. They MIGHT be proven later on to be dangerous. It has happened before in medicine. It will happen again in medicine. But without the proof I don't think it's wise to act.

Vaccine viruses can also attach themselves to cells, organs and brain tissue and cause cancers, disabilities and brain injury, as in the case of a boy who became autistic and had a seizure disorder after his MMR jab at 15 months. Great Ormand Street Children’s Hospital tested him at 13 years of age and found remains of vaccine viruses in the injured parts of his brain. (The Sunday Express, 6 October 2002).
Antibodies to brain tissue have also been found in blood tests of autistic children.

I am concerned that when I read up on this instance it was associated with the discredited Andrew Wakefield. But that aside what I will say is this:

I'm not saying that no one has ever experienced an adverse effect of a vaccination. But the method for determining that this is happening is well established.

We need to be so very sure that vaccines are the culprit before we prematurely list them as such.

Correlation does not, never has, and never will, equal causation. If my child died after a vaccination and it could not be shown with acceptable testing that the vaccination was to blame I hope I would have the courage to say "I don't know why my child died, but I am not going to blame something that is known to do good without any proof." That seems biblical to me. Testimony of two or more witnesses.

All the flu vaccines and what you related with regards to this is very probably true. But as I have no interest in the flu vaccine and no intention to give it to my children I have never looked into it.

In light of that, this gives me cause for particular concern:

I will just say it is not vaccinations, per se, that I am against. What I am wary of is the outright fraud, disinformation and conflict of interest that is rampant in the drug industry. As I stated before, I do not trust these people. They do not care about me or you. I take personal responsibility for my health, which means I do not blindly accept any of their (often bogus) claims without looking into them first.

The companies and governments are without doubt piloted by sinful people with sinful intentions and desires. I don't debate that and I never will. But I am very concerned that here it seems that what I am reading is that you accept that they have done good (though we cannot know all the implications) and your primary wariness is towards the promoters of the vaccinations.

There are a lot of awful Christians out there. But that doesn't mean a thing about what God is like... and now I better stop cause I have just compared vaccines to God in an analogy

Thanks for this contribution! It is just one example of an astounding amount of similar information that could be provided. I was going to post a list of people who died from vaccines - their names, ages, what vaccine they took, how they died, etc., but I though it over and decided it would upset the more sensitive readers. It is a huge list, and quite sobering to the say the least.

It kind of reminds me of the premise in the horror movie "Saw". In that movie there were 2 people locked in a room, that basically had to decide who should live among them (only one of them was allowed to live). And the 2 people were told by their abductor that they would have to kill the other guy in the room with him, or their family would be killed.

So, to me, the vaccines have a similar dark side to them, in that - like in the case of the movie - someone gets to live, yet someone will die. Aren't we glad it is always someone else that dies??? And if it was OUR child that died, what side of the vaccine debate would we be on?

Sad to end on this note but I am almost speechless you would post this. I thought the rest of the discussion was very productive.

 

[Fraction]

AlterNet / By Daniela Perdomo
100,000 Americans Die Each Year from Prescription Drugs, While Pharma Companies Get Rich


Prescription drugs taken as directed kill 100,000 Americans a year. That's one person every five minutes. How did we get here?
June 25, 2010 |


How many people do you know who regularly use a prescription medication? If your social group is like most Americans', the answer is most. Sixty-five percent of the country takes a prescription drug these days. In 2005 alone, we spent $250 billion on them.
I recently caught up with Melody Petersen, author of >Link Edit an in-depth look at the pharmaceutical companies that have taken the reins of our faltering health care system by cleverly hawking every kind of drug imaginable. We discussed how this powerful industry has our health in its hands.
Daniela Perdomo: Your book includes some staggering stats. For example, 100,000 Americans die each year from prescription drugs — that’s 270 per day, or, as you put it, more than twice as many who are killed in car accidents each day. Could you elaborate on this? Are these people abusing their prescription drugs or is this a sign of prescription meds gone bad?
Melody Petersen: The study estimating that 100,000 Americans die each year from their prescriptions looked only at deaths from known side effects. That is, those deaths didn’t happen because the doctor made a mistake and prescribed the wrong drug, or the pharmacist made a mistake in filling the prescription, or the patient accidentally took too much. Unfortunately, thousands of patients die from such mistakes too, but this study looked only at deaths where our present medical system wouldn’t fault anyone. Tens of thousands of people are dying every year from drugs they took just as the doctor directed. This shows you how dangerous medications are.
DP: You write about a growing market for drugs for children. You say we know little about the long-term effects of prescription meds on kids. Let’s talk particularly about depression medications and ADHD meds, which seem to be what kids are mostly prescribed.
MP: In recent years, sales of drugs for children have been the industry’s fastest growing business. Doctors now prescribe pills to children for all kinds of conditions — from high cholesterol to anxiety. The market for ADHD drugs has long been a big opportunity for the industry. More recently, the companies have had their sales reps urge doctors to prescribe antidepressants, antipsychotics and other psychiatric meds to children. The result: our kids take more of those medicines than children in other countries. For example, a study last year found that American children take three times more attention deficit medications and antidepressants than children in Europe.

DP: Could you tell me how the prescription med industry is in bed with doctors?
MP: The industry spends hundreds of millions of dollars on physicians every year. In one survey, 9 out of 10 doctors said they had recently taken something of value from the drug industry. And some of those doctors take hundreds of thousands of dollars each year from the industry. The drug companies pay doctors to be their so-called consultants. They also pay them to sit on corporate advisory boards and to give lectures to other doctors. They pay for up to 80 percent of the continuing medical education that doctors need to maintain their licenses. If you ask a doctor if this is a problem, they will more than likely tell you no. But the studies show that even a small gift will sway doctors to write a prescription for a certain drug. The truth is that doctors are no longer independent gatekeepers who keep us safe from drugs we don’t need. Far too many of them are financially tied to the industry. They are writing the prescriptions that their financial backers want them to write.
-------------------------------------------------------------


Always seek God before putting anything in your temples.


Jesus Is Lord.

Every single person responds to drugs and/or vaccines differently. What might cause you to have a tummy ache, might cause me to have a head ache. What could kill this person, would be close to and if not harmless to me or you.

Doctors have been prescribing drugs more often, but more and more people request them as well. So both sides are to blame. I assume that Melody blamed it all on the doctors and not the patients that plead for drugs or help. All drugs have a risk, and this is usually made known very clearly when it comes to side effects. Anti-depressants being some of the most vivid.

100,000 people died in a year due to prescription drugs being taken correctly. 65% of America take prescription drugs. 100,000 people is a very small fraction of that 65%. The success rate greatly out weighs the failure rate.

How did we know that these patients didn't contact their doctors or seek medical help while taking the medicine? How many ignored the signs of serious side effects? The labels help, but they do not provide common sense.

I have a feeling that if more common sense is factored in, the number would be lower than 100,000 in 2010.

However, your point of this post (at least to me) would be to consult God about what we take into our body. We would do this for spiritual support, and because drugs can obvious be dangerous to some. Which would never be something that I am against. So I thank you for your advice and your post Brother Mike. It was very educational sir.

It's good to see that you like to laugh, I know I'm a funny guy. But laughing at someone isn't humility is it? - it usually masks insecurity (or arrogance).

Proverbs 18:13
He that answereth a matter before he heareth it, it is folly and shame unto him.

So please try to keep that in mind before you feel the urge to call someone else a conspiracy theorist right from the get-go, like you did to me. :wink:

“All truth passes through three stages. First it is ridiculed, then it is violently attacked, then it is held to be self-evident.” – Arthur Schopenhauer

Also, they laughed at Noah too............

Now, as to your comment, are we talking about 20th century vaccinations and modern medicine? I ask this because you referred to the invention of medicines and all the people that have existed on this planet. I don't see the connection between vaccinations and the invention of medicine, which started in Mesopotamia 4,000-5,000 years ago.

Lastly, to clarify, when I said you must be joking, I was questioning the veracity of your statement that billions of people have been saved by vaccines, not how many people may or may not have received them. And I have not stated anywhere that vaccines have not helped people in the past.

I'm actually not going to bother with how angry you are about three letters strung together on the internet. To me, that's nonsense. Neither of us have anything to profit from it anyway.

I have gathered enough information from your response to reply to you. No need to throw scripture at me, but I appreciate it anyway. I don't disagree with you that there are possible negative side effects. I call it a conspiracy theory because of:

"Big Pharma is big business, multi-billions of dollars of big profits. And if they made us all healthy they would be OUT of business. Fear breeds profit, BIG PROFIT, so they try to scare us into believing we need their tainted and side-effect-laced drugs. "

Check out the second sentence. It seems like you're saying that it is their intention to not make us healthy, but to force us to stay sick, makes it worse, or do nothing at all. THAT is the conspiracy theory, not the dangers of drugs or vaccines. I would also like to add that even though drugs and vaccines do have a risk, they also have a very good chance at saving lives. The number of deaths prevented, sicknesses preventing, epidemics prevented, etc etc greatly out weigh the negative results. It is actually on a dramatic scale that they out weigh the negative results. This also includes your oh so evil flu shot. In other words, the logic provided fails when you compare true numbers of positive VS the negative.

Who knows the actual number of lives it has actually prevent from death? It could very well be over two billion. It could even only be hundreds of millions of lives. However, some of these vaccines are saving your life every single say. Even if you have never even had them before.

To end this post I just want to make it clear that I am not trying to offend or attack you. I hope you can accept that with maturity.

O no no no

This is so confusing

It has turned into an argumentative debate and is not helping me attall.

thank you for the responses but this is not what i expected.

Take the logical information from everyone and slam it together Amanda123.

Brother Mike says: Attempt to consult God about the decision if you are unsure. Actually, even if you are sure, run it by God still

Peace Keeper says: It's a risk, and could possibly be dangerous or have negative side effects. It's wise to proceed with caution.

Fraction says: Even though there are risks, the benefits out weigh them. This doesn't remove the risk though.

The arguing and debating is useless, even though I participate in it. In my person opinion:

Get educated about the vaccines.
Get educated about the safest way to get them.
Get educated on statistics concerning the risks.
Consult God about your final decision.

However this wasn't really even your question.

It is NOT unchristian like to obtain vaccines. There is no biblical scripture that supports a theory like that.

 

[SpiritLedEd]

Everyone has a right to his opinion, and no one can force you to have an educated opinion. But I don't know why I bother posting these things when most people have already made their minds up

Peaceseeker, in these two sentences you quite arrogantly show that you see anyone who disagrees with you as stupid, which is an outright violation of the forum rule against insulting other members. Let this be a friendly warning to you; if you continue in this way an official warning will be issued and, if that doesn't work, you're subject to being banned.

SLE

 

[Peace Seeker]

Okay, now this is something good to work with, thank you Peace Seeker for the time you took in both reading and replying. Let's look at this stuff:

If I trust you and take you at your word that you are not fearful then I guess you will trust me and take me at my word when I say I am not fearful. I guess that there are people who choose to vaccinate out of fear and those who choose not to vaccinate out of fear and neither of us are in either of those categories. Good. Fear is useless.

Agreed, fear is not the factor in either of our cases.

I guess the main thing I take issue with in regards to this concept is that firstly: if there was a formula of toxins that combined to pose serious and significant danger to vaccine receivers then I think it's reasonable to expect that it would be able to be subjected to scientific testing.

The problem is, what's reasonable to you is not reasonable to unreasonable people in corporations that put profits over people. They operate on the basis of dollars and cents, not people and health. Do you really believe people come before profits when it comes to mega billion $ companies? They rape the third world and destroy human lives wherever they go! They bribe top officials in government, they have congress in their back pocket, etc. In a good world we would be able to talk about being reasonable, but this world is corrupt to the core.

As for scientific testing, it would take me too long to expound upon that subject, so I will just say most of what passes for scientific study is nothing more than the pharmaceutical industry's propaganda, handed to their accomplices in the FDA, the media, etc. Consider the billions of $ these corporations pump into television advertising. Then contemplate whether a tv station would bite that hand that feeds them. Conflicts of interest are not rare among the FDA and the drug-pushing corporations. That's all I'll say on that.

Yes, I understand the body is in many ways complex and mysterious, but I don't think that it's unrealistic to say: "if chemicals x, y and z are combining to pose risk, then I want to see the cause and effect". I want to see it having a reliable, measurable outcome on a statistically significant number of vaccine receivers before I am inclined to feel concerned about it. Cause before that happens I am reading the information as "this could possibly happen, doesn't it sound plausible and terrible" to which my answer is "yes it sounds plausible and terrible, if you can prove that it is occurring that way I am interested in that proof". I hope you can see how this is reasonable and don't feel I am being willfully ignorant, it's not a matter of ignoring the theories, I just would not act based on them without proof.

I don't know what you would accept as proof. I can't post website links here and I type far too slowly to be able to say even close to as much as I could or would want to say. I can't even post the title of books or sources, as that is against the rules.

Secondly I take minor issue with the bubble over and explode analogy, only because these are inert materials which when combined do not bubble over and explode and that is something that has been tested and proven. There may be chemical reactions which result from their combination, but as before, I want to know what is going on, not just a vague "these things are combining and harming your child". "X is combining with y and when this happens we can see that z happens in a statistically significant portion of the vaccine receivers."
It's not like somehow everyone is unaware that the vaccines are given multiple ones at a time. Researchers are aware of that. Are you trying to tell me that you know for a fact that no research has ever been done in this field of interactions between vaccines?

Again, I don't know what else I can say, as I have said quite a bit already in previous posts. And of course not, I didn't say that research has never been done into the interactions between vaccines. Research is done, but what results are trumpeted on the airwaves and in the news media? For example, when 51 out of 60 research labs discover that a certain vaccine is tainted with simian virus (SV40), we only hear about the 9 studies that show no problems. And who do those 9 work for? That's the way the big bad world works. Studies and research are routinely manipulated.

Respectfully, you need to consider the big picture - the power politics, the level of greed and corruption that is involved at the top hierarchies. Pharmaceutical conglomerates are major sponsors of many science laboratories. And they aren't paying them big bucks to get back unsatisfactory results.

Fair enough. Of course this is true. But is there anything to show that it actually poses a higher risk? Rather than simply being an unnatural way of contracting disease? For the most part nature is superior, but that is no reason to avoid something because it does not happen in nature if there are other benefits.

Well, if I answered this it might just be taken as an opinion, and I am not meaning to disrespect you when I say that. Let me give you an example though, that maybe will help : Breast implants. Silicone - bad. Saline - good. One synthetic and unnatural, one natural. This is another subject, but think about plastic. There are a lot of people that are aware of the harmful things in plastic and how they affect not only the environment but our health as well. Point being that unnatural should not be so relied upon when it comes to such an important matter as our health and lives.

I REALLY don't want to sound like a broken record!

I know the feeling !!

All these points are indeed concerning of course. But to make the step from concerning to something I need to act upon there needs to be more than a concern that this is what is happening. Yes, in nature people wouldn't get all three at once, yes, often people are vaccinated with more than three at a time. It DOES sound concerning. Can we prove there is reason for concern?

Re the broken record , I don't know how or even if I can convince you of anything. Ultimately it is not up to me to do that, but for you to settle things in your own mind. There is so much info out there for all to see if they want to see it. I am not the Charles Spurgeon of immunology and vaccination, and I obviously make no claim as such. IE: I cannot convert the masses with just a few choice words that leave jaws hanging open, nor would I even want to be that guy even if I could. So if it were up to me to change peoples' stance on this subject, I would hope there are better writers, talkers and teachers out there than me that would step up to the plate.

My life isn't wrapped around this issue, it is just one subject among many that I have looked in to over the years. And I am fully aware that having knowledge does not automatically imply the ability to convey that knowledge. That's why I say it is up to the inquirer to search things out. I can give you some tidbits to chew on, as hopefully I have, but the rest is up to you. You obviously have an inquiring mind, which is a good thing.
Like I said in one of my other posts, Amanda asked a question, so I thought, 'okay, I'll jump in, for whatever my 2 cents is worth'.

Sounds concerning. Can we be sure that the risk of this happening outweighs the benefit of not contracting the disease?

I don't mean to be flippant here, honestly I don't, but I have to once again liken that choice to the game of Russian Roulette. Someone is going to be affected. And when we are dealing with huge populations, someone means a lot. And oftentimes these victims are needlessly harmed, because there were many other options available that were dismissed, downplayed pushed to the side, and outright suppressed, all in the name of the almighty dollar.

And specifically, on the question of can we be sure, yes, I am sure of it, and I choose to err on the side of caution, based on what I know.

And here's the rub, in the not too far off future all treatments, except those prescribed by the establishment, will be banned by law. By law under penalty. And we will become criminals for looking after our own health and desiring to have choice in the matter. Does that sound like a system that cares about us?
That's a goal they are quietly working on and moving forward with. Which means such questions of natural vs. artificial remedies will go down the memory hole and become moot. No more echinachea and Chinese medicine, no more self-help remedies that have been used for 100s of years. Just surgery, needles and pills.

Look I get how you must be feeling. There is so much complex stuff that interacts with our bodies that wouldn't have done so 2000, 4000 years ago. But there is literally no way to know or guess what is going to effect you how. You could avoid it all as much as possible; the stuff in the water, air, food, medicine, clothing, products we use... But I think it would not lead to a profitable outcome for yourself.

I do think we should endeavor to avoid those things you mentioned as much as possible. Not to the point of paranoia or panic, but just doing what you can and trusting God while you are at it. Of course, I could simply have the attitude that none of this matters, that all I have to do is trust God that He will never let anything harm me. And as I said in a reply to Brother Mike, that's great if you have such a powerful walk with God that you are able to do that. But then again, are we not required to have works that show our faith? I can pray for a job, but if I don't actually apply for a job, will my faith be enough? If I smoke cigarettes, would it be reasonable to ask God to not let them harm me?
And if, as you say, there is no way to guess what may or may not occur, then I repeat, it is up to each of to decide for ourselves if we choose to err on the side of caution or not. And I disagree that we can't know either way, since there is such a plethora of info out there.

Here's another example, to bring up smoking again. Trying to convince someone that vaccines are bad is like trying to convince smokers not to smoke. How many lives were and continue to be harmed since the tobacco industry's inception? Which is, again, reason enough to take the mainstream reports about vaccines with a grain of salt. Remember, smoking was at one time a very desirable thing. They had ads with smiling doctors in nice white coats praising the virtues of smoking. So I should not be skeptical at a drug industry that spends 2.5 times as much $ on marketing and administration as they do on research, and that dwarfs the tobacco industry? And should I not consider the ethics (or lack thereof) of an industry that takes in approximately $600 billion?

Just as an aside; what is the goal here? Our bodies are tents. Whether we vaccinate or don't vaccinate we are going to get sickness, die eventually. Surely the goal is just good stewardship til we give up the tent for the house. I accept that good stewardship could come from either vaccinating or not vaccinating. I just want to keep it in perspective. We won't get a medal for the purest tents... I'm pretty sure. I have seen the effects of the serious diseases that most of the major vaccines were developed to immunise us from. Based on a risk and benefit assessment I choose not catching or passing on disease to body being possibly contaminated in an as yet unmeasurable way.

I have thought about that point before this discussion ever came up (about the tent thing), and it crossed my mind again before I started typing this reply. And the answer I came up with was, shall we live a life of defeatism and act like nothing we do down here matters? Regarding keeping it in perspective, our bodies are the temple of God, so should we really not care how we treat it?

I think this is an extremely important thing worth not losing sight of. We have a proven positive outcome, and a lot of meaningful concerns. The reason I choose to conscientiously vaccinate is that I am okay with going with the proof until we have better proof. I think this is the way we approach most other things in life. Innocent until proven guilty. You might not condemn a guilty man soon enough with this method, but you sure won't condemn an innocent man. They MIGHT be proven later on to be dangerous. It has happened before in medicine. It will happen again in medicine. But without the proof I don't think it's wise to act.

I have no problem with your decision. I am not judging you or anyone who disagrees with me. If you trust the mainstream news you read and hear, so be it. I don't, and I believe I have good reason not to. And I have taken more pills (for a medical condition) in the last 3 years than most will in a lifetime. And as such I know firsthand what drugs do to the body.

I am concerned that when I read up on this instance it was associated with the discredited Andrew Wakefield.

Okay, tell me who discredited him. Wi**pedia? Some writer for a daily newspaper? I had never even come across his name before you mentioned it, as he is by far not the only opponent of the drug conglomerates.
It is not hard for the 'big dog' to discredit the 'little dog', when it is the 'big dog' that holds all the bones in his hand. But like you, I won't belabor this point. Other than to say a good multimillion dollar PR firm and some sweeping publicity can make a sinner into a saint in the eyes of the public, or vice versa.

All the flu vaccines and what you related with regards to this is very probably true. But as I have no interest in the flu vaccine and no intention to give it to my children I have never looked into it.

In light of that, this gives me cause for particular concern:

The companies and governments are without doubt piloted by sinful people with sinful intentions and desires. I don't debate that and I never will. But I am very concerned that here it seems that what I am reading is that you accept that they have done good (though we cannot know all the implications) and your primary wariness is towards the promoters of the vaccinations.

There are a lot of awful Christians out there. But that doesn't mean a thing about what God is like... and now I better stop cause I have just compared vaccines to God in an analogy

I'm sure someone, somewhere, has used a worse analogy.

 

[MsMree]

Faction: I just wanted to venture to say I think Peace Seeker had fair reason to feel hurt that your response to his post was to laugh and call him a conspiracy theorist. It seemed very demeaning from my perspective also.

 

[Peace Seeker]

Originally Posted by Peace SeekerEveryone has a right to his opinion, and no one can force you to have an educated opinion. But I don't know why I bother posting these
things when most people have already made their minds up

Peaceseeker, in these two sentences you quite arrogantly show that you see anyone who disagrees with you as stupid, which is an outright violation of the forum rule against insulting other members. Let this be a friendly warning to you; if you continue in this way an official warning will be issued and, if that doesn't work, you're subject to being banned.

SLE

With all due respect, I don't agree that being uneducated means or implies stupidity. I am uneducated as to the nature of how to build an automobile (to use an example), but that doesn't mean I am stupid. And that is the sentiment I was using. Have I ever called anyone stupid in any of my posts???? But I have been called things! As for the second sentence, is frustration not allowed?
Anyway, your warning is taken and I apologize if I caused offense to anyone.

 

[eddieb]

personally i dont trust the medical industry/FDA. some medicines today carry the side effects of may cause blindness, or suicidal thoughts and heres my favorite, death. i have people in my family taking meds perscribed by doctors that have ill side effects that is messing up their ligaments, tendons, joints, and the medicine isnt even for that. my question is where can one obtain info on immunization shots? are they in a PDA? (physicians desk reference) if so what are they called?
now here is some conspiracy-ish-ness for you. kids now a days have a lot more "disorders" than 20-30 even 40 years ago. surely it cant all be genetic then. something in the water then. no no that cant be it, the adults drink the same water, right? so why/how are these kids getting all these meds perscribed now? and not only that ritalin/dexadrine (and now a days its called something else) its for that ADD or ADHD. one of the side effects there is later in life it causes psycopathic thought patterns.
but hey, if i was fixing some fence and got cut up bad with some old rusty barbed wire, i might get one of them lock jaw shots. might. had an uncle die from lock jaw. stepped on a rusty nail.

 

[Brother Mike]

Vaccines. Meds, Holy Spirit.

Modern Medicine certainly has helped many. If one thinks about it, the knowledge for modern medicine could only come from the Wisdom of God.

In Danial we are told Knowledge shall increase. Since the 1900 we suddenly have break through from Horse to steam powered cars. We fly, then just a few years later we have Jets. Medical break through has also grown in leaps in bounds. Even when my Son contracted cancer, I was told from 1980 to 2000 the survival rate for B-cell lymphoma in children have More than doubled up to 89% survival rate. My son had T-cell though, but still the B-cell numbers were encouraging.

Depending on your condition, faith in God (According to your faith, so it be done unto you) Vaccines, and medicine can sustain you, or prevent something. They can also do you great harm.

In every situation, we have to be led by the Holy Spirit, if the Lord says go to the doctor, you better Go, if you get a check to not go, or you don't have peace about taking a certain med, then you best heed the direction of the Holy Spirit.

God knows what is best, and what you need to sustain yourself as your faith grows in what God said, concerning healing of your body.

2Ch 16:12 And Asa in the thirty and ninth year of his reign was diseased in his feet, until his disease was exceeding great: yet in his disease he sought not to the LORD, but to the physicians.

The Lord is not against Vaccines, or Meds. What God is not happy about is What he mentioned in his word........ Asa did not seek the Lord concerning his condition.

The OP came here looking for Advice, instead she got to see everyone fight and make a "Donkey" of themselves. She was upset, and we failed to minister to her, but more important, we failed the Lord.

How great a gift, though we all believe different, coming together in love to help with the gifts we are given.

So, there will be no more debating each other in the "Fellowship" section or the "Prayer and Praise" section. Just give what your led to share, Let the Lord show the one needing help what is right, being a witness to their hearts. If something is way off...... report it. A moderator will look into it.

Jesus Is Lord.

 

[lawrenceb]

the bizarre truth of immunisations

I don't have much time in this internet cafe, so I'll summarize what the Lord has revealed to me about this issue of vaccinations. I do have documentation for every assertion put forth here.

I know that the majority will not receive what I have to say here about this. If you have children, you thought you were doing the right thing in getting them vaccinated; after all, your mama got vaccinated, your grandma got vaccinated, etc. etc. and they're "ok." However, NO ONE took the time to perform due diligence by checking it out for himself. God's Holy Word continually warns us about the traditions of men and the destruction they bring.

But I also know that there may be a truth seeker or two who will receive it. It is to them that I offer this info about immunisations.

Immunisation is a term used to describe the cutting of the flesh and the introduction of foreign matter, usually diseased, into the body to give the patient immunity from disease.

The first record of smallpox seems to be in India, where also is the first record of inoculation, where the practice was in vogue over three thousand years ago. Dhanwantari, the Vedic father of medicine, and the earliest known Hindu physician, supposed to have lived 1500 B. C., is said to have been the first to practice inoculation and it is also stated that the Hindus employed a vaccine. For over a thousand years inoculation has been practiced in China.

The practice is so mixed up with the religious superstitions of various peoples that its origin may not be difficult for students of religious history to guess. In India, in Malaba and in other sections of the world, inoculation was mixed up with the worship of the smallpox goddess. Inoculation seems to have been nothing more than a superstitious rite designed to placate and appease the wrath of an irascible deity. People who imagined all their sufferings were sent upon them because they had offended some of their gods or goddesses originated the filthy rite to get the goddess into a good humor again.

According to a Mr. Porter, who was English Ambassador at Constantinople in 1755 (Gentleman’s Magazine, Oct. 1755): "It is the tradition and opinion of the country that a certain angel [satan's?] presides over this disease. That it is to bespeak his favor and evidence their confidence that the Georgians take a small portion of variolous matter, and, by means of scarification, introduce it between the thumb and fore finger of a sound person. The operation is supposed to never miss its effect. To secure beyond all uncertainty, the good will of the angel, they hang up scarlet clothes about the bed, that being the favorite color of the celestial inhabitant they wish to propitiate.’

I cannot imagine St. Paul, who refused to eat meat that had been offered up to idols, baring his arm for pus that is being offered up to the goddess of smallpox. I cannot imagine Moses, whose Kosher laws, in most of their essential particulars, are excellent, commanding the Jews to have this tref stuff inoculated into their bodies.

The book of Revelation tells us that the merchants, the "rich men of the earth" who love money more than they love you and me and who traffic in the souls of men, will not repent of their "sorceries" (i.e. drug-making). Why do you think vaccine ingredients include aborted fetal tissue? (Hint: it's the same reason why abortion is now legal in most states, i.e. it is all blood sacrifice to satan). And today, man's technology also allows the stealth inclusion of nanobots (nanotechnology) into the wicked brew...

What better way to gain control over the minds and souls of a generation of children than through their food/water and injections? And no one forced them to take it. You see, satan gains nothing if he holds a gun to your head and says "Worship me!" (or) "Take this injection!" A pledge made under threat or coercion is no pledge at all. The actual transference of power takes place when we voluntarily align ourselves with that authority.

When we agree to be vaccinated, we are submitting to a process which is "scientifically" designed to appease the pagan gods of antiquity aka the ancient star goddess religion. It is pure pagan witchcraft ritual, implemented by the merchants, the "rich men of the earth" (today's dynastic bloodlined banking families).

Now, for the good news: it is never too late to do the right thing. Tell the Lord that you repent of giving satan legal ground over you (or your children) re: the injections; that you plead the blood of Jesus Christ; and that you want the Lord to take back that ground that you had previously given to the enemy.


P.S. Nothing that PeaceSeeker has posted in this thread has been off the mark.

 

[Brother Mike]

Once again.

lawrenceb

P.S. Nothing that PeaceSeeker has posted in this thread has been off the mark.

Let me make things clear one more time. From now on, in the helps section we will not comment on each others post. I guess I was not clear enough above.

If I say one person is right, then that must be opposed to the others that are wrong. We are not judging each others post in any way, shape or form. We are here to post help, not critique each others post.

If something is way off, then report it, the Mod's will look into it.

Mike.

 

[Kit Carson]

Matthew 9:12 The whole need not a doctor , only the sick need a doctor.

Actually in this part it speaks of spiritual medicine. But it reveals Jesus is aware of Doctors and that you will only find a doctor with the sick as you will find Jesus with the sinner healing them and teaching.

I listen to Jesus and his common sense. In the case of men we do what we can, and only God is the ultimate Doctor both in physical and spiritual health.

But are we not to do what we can, are we not to use the intelligence we are given. Do not all things come from God?? Can man abuse drugs and make bad decisions, yes, and does all the time, but are we to let the bad influence us to reject the good.

Let the bad in a church push us away from the good is the same way of thinking. I say this again, are we to let the bad sour us on the good?

Smallpox has been declared extinct due to vaccine. Does God create disease and suffering, or does Satan cause it? Is not the defeat of smallpox Glory to God? What about Leprosy, a terrible disease of old , now a vaccine cures it, is this not another disease wiped out and does this not bring Glory to God??

When I was 9 years old my life was saved by medicine. I had a busted appendix and the infection of peritonitis had ravaged my body, surgery and medicine saved my life.

When I was about 12 a young girl playing at the river was bitten by a snake and her parents refused medical aid......the girl died. Was it Gods will that this young life not experience a full life, that her laugh and smile and dancing eyes be forever silenced.

Off I went to war, in Vietnam and they lined us up down the assembly line and gave us vaccines for things from yellow fever to cholera to flue to things I do not even know what for. We waded in mud and filth and death and we also helped many , many who were sick we passed out food to and built shelters for and gave compassion too. If we had fallen to the disease could we have helped?
Today Doctors volunteer time and money and skill to provide for many small children who are sick........does God wish these children with those dark eyes to die?? Or does he wish us to help. Are we to say No? Other doctors leave and give their time to correct cleft lip and palate and give children a chance for a normal life......have you ever seen faith cure a cleft lip, does not God move these doctors out of compassion to help?

My wife had her life saved with heart surgery some years ago, she is a nurse and provides help to many, and now also with continued life comforts others and provides help.......is this wrong?? I prayed to God to spare her life and then gave him a big Thank YOU when it was all done.

I now enter another possible sickness in my life. I have a very high PSA level which indicates that I may or may not have prostate cancer. I at first was not going to go to a Doctor, I told God , Ok you give to me what I need before I even ask, so I simply trust you to make it right. Yet I am curious and do have common sense....I will cling to life as long as I can as God put into me the will to survive. If the cancer test comes back positive I will follow the doctors orders and still love God, if it comes back negative you will not be able to shut me up in Praise to God.

Yes some drugs are misused by people. Yes some drug companies have but one purpose, money.

But there is good in with evil......are we to reject the good, because of bad??

Respectfully

Kit