is OSAS lethal poison?

[eddieb]

I've never heard a testimony from someone who lost his/her salvation. I have heard testimony of repenters praising Jesus for not leaving them in their back slid condition.

you probably never will. falling away is terribly shameful. this is where the devil wants people. in darkness. I too, have much praise to God for not leaving me in sin. and even now i am unwilling to speak about it unless i see what i have experienced will help someone come back into Gods light. falling away is the ultimate failure.

everything in life has a happy medium. or a balance. you can over dose on water. its difficult but possible. OSAS says no matter what you can not loose salvation. however scripture, not the teaching of man, paints a different picture:
Eze 33:13 When I shall say to the righteous that he shall surely live; if he trusts in his own righteousness and commits iniquity, all his righteousnesses shall not be remembered; but for his iniquity that he has committed, he shall die for it.
the word of God says a righteous man sins and shall die for it. many will try to refute this by saying this is the old testament and its a different covenant. really? the bible says Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today, and forever. no variance. no shadow.
earlier i spoke of balance. almost everytime someone badmouths OSAS the arguement is works. however obedience isnt works. its a command from The Holy One Of Isreal. BE HOLY AS I AM HOLY!!! well now i guess it could be works if one thinks by his obedience he/she earns their salvation. so you see both sides can go to an unhealthy extreme thats poison for the soul.
personally for me i think OSAS is a lie from the pit of hell. allow me to say why. when i was a new believer i was amoung people telling me about tulips and OSAS stuff. it registered in my mind its ok to sin. God understands i am a sinner. I have a license to sin. man i am so blessed. however after some time went by and my walk progressed i realized something. God will not allow sin to stand in his precense. thats why lucy got cast out of heaven like a bolt of lightning.
bottom line is this: if the body of christ would stop argueing about whos doctorine is correct, and start doing what God said, which is to stop sinning (be holy as I AM holy) start paying more attention to whats inside their own hearts then maybe there wouldnt be so many divisions. maybe the church would gain more ground on earth. but most importantly we could have a closer walk with Him. either way, your doctorine dont save you. Jesus Christ does. (selah.)

 

[Thiscrosshurts]

Lets use the apostle Paul's conversion as a template.
Did he accept Jesus in his heart or say a prayer or even believe on Jesus?
I don't think it's once saved always saved unless the once was at the foundation of the world when the Lamb was slain.
How can I blame someone for not believing when it took such an experience for Saul to convert.

It was by Holy intervention that Saul was saved or it was revealed that Jesus had already saved him apart from his actions.
He did not say a prayer or do anything except freak out and of course he listened then.
What did Paul do to get saved,he murdered Christians,now let's not make that a doctrine please.
Then we have to explain the conversion of Cornelius and his household.Peter was told to go and speak to them and as he began to speak the Holy Spirit fell on them causing Peter to proclaim that God was not a respecter of persons.

Why would I bother even praying for the lost if I thought they had some sovereignty in their miserable little lives.
Here is a past event that seated us in Christ so when did we believe before this gift was given?
Ephesians 2:6 And has raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:

Did I have a choice seeing that the Lamb was slain from the foundation of the world?

Do we see any choice or free will here?
Romans 11:32 For God has bound all men over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.

Before wasting time arguing OSAS maybe we should come up with something that actually fits ALL scripture.

I guess I'm the only one who chose that I need to research this.

 

[David777]

Hello to both sides of the fence.

What a fascinating topic for discussion, such strongly held
positions on both sides of the fence.

Ephesians 2:8
For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;

There is no doubt about the source of salvation, it is a gift of God.
That line above is one of my favorite declarations of God.
It is the dividing wall between true Christianity and every cult and religion on earth.
God does it all perfectly from start to finish.

Faith is a gift from God, so is sanctification, all are components of
the tremendous act of reconciliation of Jesus and mankind.

So, is there any human interplay in the process?

 

[Rockerduck]

There is not one Born Again/Saved Christian that has not broken at least one of the ten commandments, some daily, some weekly. Our sin nature keeps us from being perfect. Christians aren't sinless, they just sin less. So which sin is worse? Only Jesus saves us from this sinful life. Try as hard as you can not to sin, you won't succeed. Gluttony is a sin. Anybody overweight?

 

[Thiscrosshurts]

The license to sin argument is not logical or scientific and certainly not scriptural in my opinion.
The wages of sin is death,not eternal torture.
If you can see that then we see that without holiness one will not see God or the kingdom of God.
The kingdom of God is love,joy,peace,righteousness and fellowship in the Holy Spirit.
If we are walking in sin we will suffer here and now and not in eternity.
Being saved is for the living and not the dead.

Eternal means always was and will be,no beginning and no end,so at what point does eternal life begin,you either have it now or you never will because they can't make a beginning to let anyone in.
Will God inject us into eternity like a jelly doughnut?
I'm not talking predestination either there are plenty of other options that make more sense.

Neither position seems to satisfy scripture so I doubt either side can prevail.

 

[David777]

How do you tackle this.

I do not see security theology as a poison.

I think both theologies, security and non-security
have strengths and weaknesses.

In my opinion the following parable seems relevant
to the discussion.

Matthew 25

1“Then the kingdom of heaven will be comparable to ten virgins,
who took their lamps and went out to meet the bridegroom.

2 Five of them were foolish, and five were prudent.

3 For when the foolish took their lamps, they took no oil with them,

4 but the prudent took oil in flasks along with their lamps.

5 Now while the bridegroom was delaying, they all got drowsy and began to sleep.

6 But at midnight there was a shout, ‘Behold, the bridegroom!
Come out to meet him.’

7 Then all those virgins rose and trimmed their lamps.

8 The foolish said to the prudent, ‘Give us some of your oil, for our lamps are going out.’

9 But the prudent answered, ‘No, there will not be enough for us and you too;
go instead to the dealers and buy some for yourselves.’

10 And while they were going away to make the purchase,
the bridegroom came, and those who were ready went in
with him to the wedding feast; and the door was shut.

11 Later the other virgins also came, saying, ‘ Lord, lord, open up for us.’

12 But he answered, ‘Truly I say to you, I do not know you.’

13 Be on the alert then, for you do not know the day nor the hour.

This is a very powerful parable which I think directly addresses
the issue of security theology. Here's why;

All ten were waiting for the arrival of the bridegroom, so
all ten were Christian.

The bridegroom was delayed and they all fell asleep.

All ten trimmed their lamps at His arrival, but only
the wise five virgins had extra oil.

Jesus took the five wise ones with Him.

Oil is the Holy Spirit, the wise ones had more than
was apparently necessary. They wisely had
invested in the appropriate steps to allow there
lamps to be ready should there be a delay.

Those foolish virgins obviously allowed their faith
to diminish to the point that they were not ready
for the grooms arrival.

Hence, the gift of faith must be nurtured until
it reaches full maturity.

For me this parable represents a particular
problem for security theology.

Faith is a gift that does need attention.
With out correct care a persons faith
can over time diminish and extinguish.

 

[DutchChristian]

Hello dear readers,

How contrary isn't it that OSAS would even make it possible for some to believe that a "saved" person who makes up his mind after he is "once saved" to go out to murder several people on the streets outside and to steal and destroy further, commit adultery and even murder a brother by hating him that he would still be able to enter into heaven because he was saved....

People do not be deceived!

Galatians 6:7-8
Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.
For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.

1 John 3:15
Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him.

And again i say:

1 John 3:15
Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him.

 

[Thiscrosshurts]

How contrary isn't it that OSAS would even make it possible for some to believe that a "saved" person who makes up his mind after he is "once saved" to go out to murder several people on the streets outside and to steal and destroy further, commit adultery and even murder a brother by hating him that he would still be able to enter into heaven because he was saved....

The kingdom of heaven is love ,joy ,peace,righteousness and fellowship in the Holy Spirit.These things empower us to be Holy.
Murder,hatred,adultery and strife,can't empower you to lead a victorious life.

The apostle Paul seemed to get saved by murdering Christians.
Is God a respecter of persons?Why does Paul get a visitation from salvation and not us?
Paul did not call on Jesus,no Jesus called on Paul.

If we can't answer these simple things then what hope do we have to understand what the word is actually talking of.

Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.

What is going to happen if we sow error because we are not diligently seeking and knocking.

 

[farout]

I am not to sure that Most people do not believe in OSAS, or that most people do. Where would one find such evidence?

 

[DutchChristian]

Murder,hatred,adultery and strife,can't empower you to lead a victorious life.

Right, and that is exactly why OSAS fails.

I am not to sure that Most people do not believe in OSAS, or that most people do. Where would one find such evidence?

The word of God, The Holy Bible has got all the evidence we need.

 

[jari]

This is a very powerful parable which I think directly addresses
the issue of security theology. Here's why;

All ten were waiting for the arrival of the bridegroom, so
all ten were Christian.

The bridegroom was delayed and they all fell asleep.

All ten trimmed their lamps at His arrival, but only
the wise five virgins had extra oil.

Jesus took the five wise ones with Him.

Oil is the Holy Spirit, the wise ones had more than
was apparently necessary. They wisely had
invested in the appropriate steps to allow there
lamps to be ready should there be a delay.

Those foolish virgins obviously allowed their faith
to diminish to the point that they were not ready
for the grooms arrival.

Hence, the gift of faith must be nurtured until
it reaches full maturity.

in the parable five were wise. but it doesn't say if it was possible for the wise to become fools?
they being wise seems to point to the fact that they could do what the foolish never could. that is have enough supply of oil.
we must realize one thing though, the oil containers probably represent infinite supply of oil. or lamb that does not go out.

no man has ever invented infinite source of energy or oil containers so it could very well mean the always sufficient supply. though you might think that too could run out, but I doupt the point is that the wise had just more of oil. the point seems to be they never do run out of it.

also they were all sleeping. yet none of the wise never run out of oil. nor none became foolish.
(it doesn't say how long they all slept but during sleep their status remained the same.)
therefore the parable seems to point in validity of OSAS doctrine.
and in this case i think the foolish could represent the not born again. who do not have Holy spirit. probably because they do not have saving faith in Jesus.

that's how i have thought it over.

 

[David777]

Hello Jari.

Good to hear from you Jari.

I read what you wrote and underlined the important info
in your reply.

"in the parable five were wise. but it doesn't say if it was possible for the wise to become fools?
they being wise seems to point to the fact that they could do what the foolish never could.
that is have enough supply of oil.

we must realize one thing though, the oil containers probably represent infinite supply of oil.
or lamb that does not go out.

no man has ever invented infinite source of energy or oil containers so it could very well mean
the always sufficient supply. though you might think that too could run out, but I doupt the point
is that the wise had just more of oil. the point seems to be they never do run out of it.
also they were all sleeping. yet none of the wise never run out of oil. nor none became foolish.
(it doesn't say how long they all slept but during sleep their status remained the same.)
therefore the parable seems to point in validity of OSAS doctrine.
and in this case i think the foolish could represent the not born again.
who do not have Holy spirit. probably because they do not have saving faith in Jesus.
that's how i have thought it over."

The parable starts with the "The kingdom of Heaven is comparable to ten virgins".
Wisdom and foolishness are the result of the responses of each of the ten virgins.

They all went to meet the groom, all Christian, non Christians are not waiting for the groom Jari.
Wisdom is seen in the preparation, in other words they followed the advice to be ready.
Which is the point of the parable, Jesus does not want us to be foolish.

How long was the slumber is a mute point.
Was the oil supply infinite is also a mute point.

There is zero probability that the foolish virgins were not Christian.
Jesus is not conversing with non Christians but with those who believe.
They were all waiting for the grooms arrival!
They all had their lamps Jari.

BE READY, that is the warning we have been given.

Whether this was predestined is beyond the scope of the parable
and is irrevelant. That amounts to a preconceived belief being forced onto the text.

A simple parable with a simple message to all Christians "be ready".

 

[philosopher]

All good points David. By reading this, another example from scripture suddenly came to my remembrance.

Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing.

Of a truth I say unto you, that he will make him ruler over all that he hath.

But and if that servant say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming; and shall begin to beat the menservants and maidens, and to eat and drink, and to be drunken;

The lord of that servant will come in a day when he looketh not for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in sunder, and will appoint him his portion with the unbelievers.

And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes.

But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.- Luke 12:43-48

 

[jari]

They all went to meet the groom, all Christian, non Christians are not waiting for the groom Jari.

i didn't say they weren't christians.

but wise should not become foolish.

and oil container in this parable represented sufficient supply for undetermined time.

Also Lord knew the wise virgins. but how come he didnt know the foolish then?
because they were never God's children. thats what the foolish virgins represent i think

God bless you

 

[David777]

Oh, yes you did my friend.

and in this case i think the foolish could represent the not born again.
who do not have Holy spirit.

 

[David777]

Hello jari.

Jesus spoke this parable for a very important reason which you and I are aware of.

To apply the concept of OSAS to this parable illustrates an area of weakness in the concept of OSAS.

"Also, the Lord knew the wise virgins. but how come he didnt know the foolish then?"

God knows them all, those who listen and obey are His chidren, they have the relationship with God.
The others were NOT READY although they were told to be ready, they become unknown to Him.
I must stress that all ten were in fact waiting for His arrival, all ten Jari.
Think of the talents, one fellow buried his talents and what was God's response, same deal.

Those who do not listen and pay attention to what Jesus tells them run the risk of failing the task.
Which is not being ready, not watching the signs, being absorbed in other matters.
Believing but never growing, not counting the cost, not dying to self, etc, etc.

Missing out on the wedding itself.

 

[David777]

Thanks Philosopher.

That is an even more powerful version that undermines the concept of OSAS.
Perhaps you should take over philosopher, that was a better choice.
Mine may have been too simple.

 

[jari]

hi David

"Also, the Lord knew the wise virgins. but how come he didnt know the foolish then?"

God knows them all, those who listen and obey are His chidren, they have the relationship with God.
The others were NOT READY although they were told to be ready, they become unknown to Him.

became unknown to Lord?

(Mat 25:12) But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not.

God forgot His children?

(2Ti 2:13) If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself.

God bless you

 

[David777]

Thanks Jari.

hi David


became unknown to Lord?

(Mat 25:12) But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not.

God forgot His children?

(2Ti 2:13) If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself.

God bless you

I agree with your reply, very good answer.

A poor choice of words on my behalf.

They obviously cannot become unknown.

They were not ready thus they could not
attend the wedding. I read the non attendance
at the wedding as exclusion from heaven.
Is this correct, what do you think Jari?

I believe that your proposition that they
were never known by the Lord as
stretching the meaning of the parable.

If they were in fact unknown, why were
they waiting for the groom?

 

[DutchChristian]

Consider this also:

Luke 13:23-28
Then said one unto him, Lord, are there few that be saved? And he said unto them, Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able.
When once the master of the house is risen up, and hath shut to the door, and ye begin to stand without, and to knock at the door, saying, Lord, Lord, open unto us; and he shall answer and say unto you, I know you not whence ye are: Then shall ye begin to say, We have eaten and drunk in thy presence, and thou hast taught in our streets.
But he shall say, I tell you, I know you not whence ye are; depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity.
There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and you yourselves thrust out.

This says it all: bye bye OSAS.

Matthew 25:11-12
Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us.
But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not.

Luke 13 verse 25* in part so as to make a point:
and to knock at the door, saying, Lord, Lord, open unto us;
and he shall answer and say unto you,I know you not whence ye are:

See the similarity?

Matthew 7:21 and 23
Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

OSAS causes people to sleep just like the foolish virgins did, they fell short, not enough oil that can only be bought through doing the Will of the Father (by doing it) and certainly not by working iniquity! The foolish underestimated, they thought everything was ok even while in sin it was not! See the danger of OSAS!

Don't be a foolish virgin, Take Heed to this warning!