Is purgatory a myth and where did it come from?

[Garee]

The word trinity is not in the bible and yet its borderline heresy to reject it.

I gave you four powerful arguments that support mortal and venial sins.

You have still not addressed them......

Just say '''I have ignored your post proving mortal and venial sins exist. I cannot debunk anything you have said, please let me remain in my cocoon''.

You don't discuss or debate, you just keep spouting your cherry picked idealogy.

Because someone offers another presons opinion as a private interprtation or person comenetaary it does not mean that all oral traditons rings true when comparing it to the world God . . . .God's traditon as a perfect law .

The false doctrine of Purgatory which teaches the non-venerable pew sitters whose faith is lorded over by venerable ones (a hierarchy of men or law of the fathers). They teach the non-venerable pew sitters they receive a unknown remnant of grace with the exception of what they call a “queen of heaven” She alone is said of receiving “The fullness of Grace”. This is in their attempt to extend mercy even after they take their last breath of life. . they must continue to suffer for another unknown remnant of time with no end of faith. . the salvation of soul, in sight.

The doctrine of seeking after mystical wonderments and not faith as it is written (sola scriptura)

The Bible informs us there must by heresies or private interpretations among us as personal commentaries. And we cannot judge one another unless the oral tradition of the fathers do despite to the fullness of grace denying the Lord according to His fullness of grace that bought them.

1 Corinthians 11:19For there must be also heresies among you, that they which are approved may be made manifest among you.

2 Peter 2:1 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.

No such thing as dividing the wage of death. All will make that appointment. Appointed once to die then comes the death of death (the letter of the law) .

Then comes the second death. . the death of death and its suffering itself. It will not rise up and condemn (you shall surely die) ever again

Hebrews 10:29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?


Those who look to queen of what they call the Queen of Mercy They show they have no use for all things written in the law and the prophets but rather they do whatsoever their own mouth declares as a law of the fathers, kings and princes.

Venerable men lording it over the no venerable pew sitters .In the end they are shown as seeing no evil in doing despite to the grace of God as faithless mankind. They will not rise and receive the new incorruptible born again body


Jeremiah 44: 16-17 As for the word that thou hast spoken unto us in the name of the Lord, we will not hearken unto thee.But we will certainly do whatsoever thing goeth forth out of our own mouth, to burn incense unto the queen of heaven, and to pour out drink offerings unto her, as we have done, we, and our fathers, our kings, and our princes, in the cities of Judah, and in the streets of Jerusalem: for then had we plenty of victuals, and were well, and saw no evil.

Same Queen diferent name . . same law of the fathers different names of fathers .

 

[Shutterbug]

After reading through the thread, I'll add my two cents worth as I understand it. Indulgences were introduced to pay for the renovation of St. Peter's Basilica, and later to raise funds for the Crusades with the paraphrased, "every time the coffer rings, a soul from purgatory springs".

While Mary played a unique role, the RCC could not conceive her being just another pretty face in the angelic host. They elevated her status even further.
Adam and Eve did not die the day of their transgression, thereby giving the serpent sufficient misinformation to mislead them. The Devil knew what they did not fully comprehend.

Martin Luther was a faithful Roman Catholic monk until a trip to Rome changed his mind. Despite requesting at his trial which of his books defiled Scripture, not one of was proven to be false as the accusing bishop was defending an institution, not Scripture. A thesis was an invitation for debate, and Luther participated in several debates.

The original printing of the King James Bible contained the Apocrypha. At some point, a decision was made that its inclusion did not contribute to the message of the Gospel and was subsequently dropped.

When Queen Mary of England came to power, she persecuted the Protestants. When her sister, Queen Elizabeth came to power, she persecuted the Roman Catholics. Neither side is innocent. Their father, King Henry 8th, had no issue with the Roman Catholic Church until it refused to grant his divorce from Catherine thus opening the door for a new and different church to form. Cheers

 

[KingJ]

Because someone offers another presons opinion as a private interprtation or person comenetaary it does not mean that all oral traditons rings true when comparing it to the world God . . . .God's traditon as a perfect law .

The false doctrine of Purgatory which teaches the non-venerable pew sitters whose faith is lorded over by venerable ones (a hierarchy of men or law of the fathers). They teach the non-venerable pew sitters they receive a unknown remnant of grace with the exception of what they call a “queen of heaven” She alone is said of receiving “The fullness of Grace”. This is in their attempt to extend mercy even after they take their last breath of life. . they must continue to suffer for another unknown remnant of time with no end of faith. . the salvation of soul, in sight.

The doctrine of seeking after mystical wonderments and not faith as it is written (sola scriptura)

The Bible informs us there must by heresies or private interpretations among us as personal commentaries. And we cannot judge one another unless the oral tradition of the fathers do despite to the fullness of grace denying the Lord according to His fullness of grace that bought them.

1 Corinthians 11:19For there must be also heresies among you, that they which are approved may be made manifest among you.

2 Peter 2:1 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.

No such thing as dividing the wage of death. All will make that appointment. Appointed once to die then comes the death of death (the letter of the law) .

Then comes the second death. . the death of death and its suffering itself. It will not rise up and condemn (you shall surely die) ever again

Hebrews 10:29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?


Those who look to queen of what they call the Queen of Mercy They show they have no use for all things written in the law and the prophets but rather they do whatsoever their own mouth declares as a law of the fathers, kings and princes.

Venerable men lording it over the no venerable pew sitters .In the end they are shown as seeing no evil in doing despite to the grace of God as faithless mankind. They will not rise and receive the new incorruptible born again body


Jeremiah 44: 16-17 As for the word that thou hast spoken unto us in the name of the Lord, we will not hearken unto thee.But we will certainly do whatsoever thing goeth forth out of our own mouth, to burn incense unto the queen of heaven, and to pour out drink offerings unto her, as we have done, we, and our fathers, our kings, and our princes, in the cities of Judah, and in the streets of Jerusalem: for then had we plenty of victuals, and were well, and saw no evil.

Same Queen diferent name . . same law of the fathers different names of fathers .

Your post is all over the show. Pick a topic you want to discuss and try focus discussion on that topic. You like others are just using this thread to express all your disagreements with the RCC.

We discussed Purgatory in detail. We discussed mortal and venial sins, still awaiting your reply on my post. What is it you want to discuss now? Perhaps open a new thread?

 

[KingJ]

bishop was defending an institution, not Scripture.

I love reading about the reformation wars. There were so many battles. The pendulum definitely swung both ways. More for the RCC as they were in power. 1/3 of Germans were killed I think in the 16th century.

Agree fully with your few words here. It was a war against an institution. Many good Christians dragged into war, both sides.

I have very mixed views on the topic. I want a Christian institution in power. Martin Luther should have been ''slower / less confrontational'' I believe.

Catholics have meant well from day 1.

 

[Garee]

Your post is all over the show. Pick a topic you want to discuss and try focus discussion on that topic. You like others are just using this thread to express all your disagreements with the RCC.

We discussed Purgatory in detail. We discussed mortal and venial sins, still awaiting your reply on my post. What is it you want to discuss now? Perhaps open a new thread?

Yes using your details .Details that are not found in the Bible .

The wage of sin is death we are carrying out the results in dying. dead never to rise to new spirt life the outcome

It’s not about Catholics but is in regard to what the bible call a “law of the fathers” The I heard it through the grape vine oral traditions of men called heresies (matters of opinion) In that way like fingerprints we all have one . oral traditon another teaching authority other than all things written in the law and the prophets (sola scriptural) .The mutual source of Christian faith.

Before we can to discuss purgatory that some call "extra mercy" an oral tradition . I am still waiting for you to explain why I would trust that Christ’s atonement provide a “unknown remnant” of grace and I should start wondering. When will it be enough .Can’t call that faith


All born again believers receive the fullness of Christ’s grace, the end of their faith from the beginning in the twinkling of the eye. . when they first heard the voice and believed him who has no form. He enabled them working in them to both will and empower them.the treasure we do have .Not will have maybe?

1 Peter1:9-10 Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls. Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you

The law of the fathers teaches the non venerable pew sitters that only a queen of heaven received the fullness of Christ’s grace .All others an unknown remnant and they must continue to suffer after they take their last breath and must continue to suffer for another unknown time or severity of pain. . never coming to the end of faith.The salvation of one’s soul.

It would seem to be the one heresy that is approachable. How beautiful are the feet of those sent to bring the gospel light .the law of the fathers kings and princes is a dark place.

1 Corinthians 11:19 For there must be also heresies among you, that they which are approved may be made manifest among you.

2 Peter 2:1 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even “denying the Lord” that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.

All of the mercy needed is found in the fullness of His grace .Don’t leave earth without it.

 

[KingJ]

Yes using your details .Details that are not found in the Bible .

''My details''

Please do tell me which line here is my personal opinion with regards to mortal and venial sins:

1. God does not change Heb 23:19. In the OT He ordained in His wisdom differing punishments for differing sins. Why?

2. Paul singles out a brother in incest, a sin not even mentioned among heathens, in 1 Cor 5. Why?

3. Jesus says that thoughts of adultery is a sin Matt 5:28 but then merely four verses later says to not divorce unless there is actual adultery Matt 5:32.

4. Sodom was destroyed because their sins were grievous Gen 18:10.

 

[KingJ]

Yes using your details .Details that are not found in the Bible .

The wage of sin is death we are carrying out the results in dying. dead never to rise to new spirt life the outcome

It’s not about Catholics but is in regard to what the bible call a “law of the fathers” The I heard it through the grape vine oral traditions of men called heresies (matters of opinion) In that way like fingerprints we all have one . oral traditon another teaching authority other than all things written in the law and the prophets (sola scriptural) .The mutual source of Christian faith.

Before we can to discuss purgatory that some call "extra mercy" an oral tradition . I am still waiting for you to explain why I would trust that Christ’s atonement provide a “unknown remnant” of grace and I should start wondering. When will it be enough .Can’t call that faith


All born again believers receive the fullness of Christ’s grace, the end of their faith from the beginning in the twinkling of the eye. . when they first heard the voice and believed him who has no form. He enabled them working in them to both will and empower them.the treasure we do have .Not will have maybe?

1 Peter1:9-10 Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls. Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you

The law of the fathers teaches the non venerable pew sitters that only a queen of heaven received the fullness of Christ’s grace .All others an unknown remnant and they must continue to suffer after they take their last breath and must continue to suffer for another unknown time or severity of pain. . never coming to the end of faith.The salvation of one’s soul.

It would seem to be the one heresy that is approachable. How beautiful are the feet of those sent to bring the gospel light .the law of the fathers kings and princes is a dark place.

1 Corinthians 11:19 For there must be also heresies among you, that they which are approved may be made manifest among you.

2 Peter 2:1 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even “denying the Lord” that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.

All of the mercy needed is found in the fullness of His grace .Don’t leave earth without it.

Not sure why you posting all this. What particular point are you addressing?

 

[Garee]

Not sure why you posting all this. What particular point are you addressing?

All of the ones you are avoiding. the principle of the matter.

The wage of sin acording to the letter of the law (the Bible) is "death" never torise to new spirit life. Not extra mercy. No such thing venial and mortal sin .That is clearly a invovation of mankind trying to extend mercy after one take the last breath .

It is no different than the orginal deception (thou waill suely not die) calling God a lair .

Ecclesiastes 12:7Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

The point that purgatory is an oral traditon of man that makes the word of God without effect.

Do you undestnd how purgatory does do dispite to the grace of God teaching others only what they a call a queen of heaven has received the fullness and the rest of the human race a unkown amount ...never coming to the end of faith the salvation of ones soul

Don't leave earth without the fullnes of grace. There is no such thing called extra mercy purgatory .

when a person takes their last breath if they have not receive the fulnes of Christ grace and are given a new spirt they will not rise on the last day

 

[Garee]

''My details''

Please do tell me which line here is my personal opinion with regards to mortal and venial sins:

1. God does not change Heb 23:19. In the OT He ordained in His wisdom differing punishments for differing sins. Why?

2. Paul singles out a brother in incest, a sin not even mentioned among heathens, in 1 Cor 5. Why?

3. Jesus says that thoughts of adultery is a sin Matt 5:28 but then merely four verses later says to not divorce unless there is actual adultery Matt 5:32.

4. Sodom was destroyed because their sins were grievous Gen 18:10.

1. Because he desired to inform us the letter of the law kills it is not subject to change. . It does not change and one day it is called extra mecy .

2. Because it was the first time is was mentioned .It falls under the letter of the law also (.the wage death )

3. That is the regulation for divorce it is not extending mercy after one breaths thier last breath .

4.Sodom was destroyed as a example of those who have not been born again from above .Salt like fire reprsents the spirit of jugdment. There temporal spirits return to the father of all spirit life and the clay to the dust it was formed of.

 

[Garee]

I love reading about the reformation wars. There were so many battles. The pendulum definitely swung both ways. More for the RCC as they were in power. 1/3 of Germans were killed I think in the 16th century.

Agree fully with your few words here. It was a war against an institution. Many good Christians dragged into war, both sides.

I have very mixed views on the topic. I want a Christian institution in power. Martin Luther should have been ''slower / less confrontational'' I believe.

Catholics have meant well from day 1.

Neither the first century reformation nor the fifteenth century reformation (carbon copy) was a war of institutions.

First thing first born again believers do not war against the things seen, the temporal.

That’s the hope of Catholicism and corrupted Judaism under a “law of the fathers” Murder the mis perceived competition and indoing so kill the gospel . I heard it through the grape vine theology .

They hate sola scriptura (all things written in the law and prophets .Gods witness to mankind. . one who was there working with the believers. His witness is light. . it as it is written reveals their lies while at the same time it reveals the gospel to those who get under it as it is written . .

We do not wrestle against flesh and blood in lieu of letter of approval sent from the high priest or Pope authorizing the death of men and woman in both reformations. The pagan foundation out of sight out of mind (no faith needed) gives them the illusion that kingdom of God comes by observation walking by sight.

Acts22: 3-5 I am verily a man which am a Jew, born in Tarsus, a city in Cilicia, yet brought up in this city at the feet of Gamaliel, and taught according to the perfect manner of the law of the fathers, and was zealous toward God, as ye all are this day. And I persecuted this way unto the death, binding and delivering into prisons both men and women. As also the high priest doth bear me witness, and all the estate of the elders: from whom also I received letters unto the brethren, and went to Damascus, to bring them which were there bound unto Jerusalem, for to be punished.

Becoming a leader of the Nazarene sect . . .Men who do not lord it over the faith of the non-venerable pew sitters, commanding them as commandments of men (oral tradition) walk by sight .Murder all who disagree with the High priest or Pope (same thing). Out of sight out of mind .Like Cain plowed Abel under to show he was wrestling against flesh and blood (the things seen .

They sought to murder Paul again having the letter of approval from the Pope or High priest, They called all things written in the law and the prophets "heresy" .

The reformation is still doing its work of restoring the King do our unseen Holy father . they walked away faithless.

Acts 24: 13-14 Neither can they prove the things whereof they now accuse me. But this I confess unto thee, that after the way which they call heresy, so worship I the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the law and in the prophets:

The weapons of our warfare are not carnal . No glorying in the corrupted flesh. . the things seen .

 

[KingJ]

1. Because he desired to inform us the letter of the law kills it is not subject to change. . It does not change and one day it is called extra mecy .

2. Because it was the first time is was mentioned .It falls under the letter of the law also (.the wage death )

3. That is the regulation for divorce it is not extending mercy after one breaths thier last breath .

4.Sodom was destroyed as a example of those who have not been born again from above .Salt like fire reprsents the spirit of jugdment. There temporal spirits return to the father of all spirit life and the clay to the dust it was formed of.

Finally Garee, it is so good to see a post where you address arguments raised.

1. For those that died by way of being stoned to death, none of them would agree with your statement ''he desired to inform us''.

Extra mercy? God is partial? This reply holds no water, can you better explain please, you just raise more questions.

2. Garee, seriously, this is not an answer. Paul addresses ''sexual sinners'' in other scriptures, never does he single out a sinner until here and he says it is a sin that not even pagans commit. Your response is just terrible.

3. Again, you seem to miss the fact that sin is not ''sin''. Thoughts is a sin, but actual adultery is a greater sin. That is the point / clarification Jesus made. You come with '''extending mercy after last breath''? why would you say that?

4. I think you did not read the verse I gave. The verse says ''their sins were grievous''. You go off at a crazy tangent.

Garee, whilst you put your reply in point form, you yet again do not deal with the facts raised. You merely dance around them and change the topic.

 

[Shutterbug]

Neither the first century reformation nor the fifteenth century reformation (carbon copy) was a war of institutions.

First thing first born again believers do not war against the things seen, the temporal.

That’s the hope of Catholicism and corrupted Judaism under a “law of the fathers” Murder the mis perceived competition and indoing so kill the gospel . I heard it through the grape vine theology .

They hate sola scriptura (all things written in the law and prophets .Gods witness to mankind. . one who was there working with the believers. His witness is light. . it as it is written reveals their lies while at the same time it reveals the gospel to those who get under it as it is written . .

They sought to murder Paul again having the letter of approval from the Pope or High priest, They called all things written in the law and the prophets "heresy" .

Hi Garee. Sorry mate, I find you a bit difficult to follow. Overall, I agree with your statements although I reduced your draft to a more manageable level.

King J was quoting the word "institution" from me. I should clarify that a bit as I meant it to be used. The 16th century reformation was not a carbon copy of the 1st century establishment of Christianity. Christianity was a fulfillment to Judaism and not a replacement. While the Jews were still God's people, Christianity offered the gentile peoples the chance to become God's chosen through Christ. On that point, we can both agree. Through the years, several churches evolved in the form of Orthodox, Coptic, and Catholic, and the churches in major cities. While they had common beliefs and practices, they also had differences. The Council at Nicea had several objectives - discuss several heresies, better define just what they believed, and get to know each other a bit. They accomplished a lot, but the church at Rome as in Paul's day, had much influence.

I used the word institution to signify how the religious rulers practiced and promoted their teachings. Everything is done a certain way, and that way remains constant, thus becoming institutionalized in their thinking. Saul was taught by a very good teacher who ingrained the old ways into his pupil. When Christianity appeared, the Pharisees saw it as a threat to their system of doing things. Likewise, the RCC saw the rise of Protestantism as a very real threat to their way of doing things. When you're at the top, the only direction is down.

Both Catholics and Protestants share common beliefs as contained within Scripture. Both agree on the Bible as Sola Scriptura. While both agreed on it being used to educate the laity, the Protestant laity feels it should also be used to correct deficiencies within the leadership.


Regarding purgatory, I feel it is a bit like our penal system: if a dangerous offender is arrested for a crime, that person is kept in jail until sentencing, at which point they remain in jail. There is no posted bond which can be paid; you had your chance listening to the preachers and ignored them. I agree there are some who perish without making a final decision, but what undeniable proof are they seeking while still on this side of the grass? Cheers

 

[Garee]

Finally Garee, it is so good to see a post where you address arguments raised.

1. For those that died by way of being stoned to death, none of them would agree with your statement ''he desired to inform us''.

Extra mercy? God is partial? This reply holds no water, can you better explain please, you just raise more questions.

2. Garee, seriously, this is not an answer. Paul addresses ''sexual sinners'' in other scriptures, never does he single out a sinner until here and he says it is a sin that not even pagans commit. Your response is just terrible.

3. Again, you seem to miss the fact that sin is not ''sin''. Thoughts is a sin, but actual adultery is a greater sin. That is the point / clarification Jesus made. You come with '''extending mercy after last breath''? why would you say that?

4. I think you did not read the verse I gave. The verse says ''their sins were grievous''. You go off at a crazy tangent.

Garee, whilst you put your reply in point form, you yet again do not deal with the facts raised. You merely dance around them and change the topic.

Extra mercy (purgatory) is what some claim .. . exttends the sufering of those who say only a queen of heaven reeceived the fullness of Christ's grace .(Blasphemy) And every other creature a unknown amount. Somehow or other even after their temporal corrupted dead body returns to the dust and their temporal spirit returns to the father who gave under the leter of the law (death)

Ecclesiastic 12: 7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

Extra mercy come in the form of below.

Geneisis 3: 4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:

What you have to prove is that mankind that does not receive a new born again spirit of Christ's grace does not actually die as described in Ecclesiastic 12. It’s the hope of those who look for extra mercy

Why remove the sting of death ..without the born gospel of grace ? Where do you find that kind of instruction? (Ye shall not surely die: ?)

Peter in John 21 started one of those I heard it through the grape vine oral traditions of mankind (law of the fathers) Peter went to town and started a lie saying John would not die.

Jesus informs us that if every time he had to work to dispel the lies of the evil one in that way of those who look to extend mercy after they take their last breath. Jesus said. . We would need a bigger planet to hold the volumes that could have been written as needed to defend the integrity of His word. One demonstration (John 21 ) should be enough to assure us that man does die as it is written below. You shall die. (Not maybe )

Genesis 3 3 But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die.

 

[Sue D.]

If one takes a glimpse at the idea of Purgatory it does seem like that. ''Jesus is not sufficient'' you must still prove yourself (works) and rely on the living / Catholic church to pray for you (Catholic favoritism).

But deeper thought reveals some rational logic. If you consider how one is saved. It takes a person to realize the error of their ways. To properly grasp that sin is wicked and hurts people. This all leads to a desire of true repentance. The once we have repented we need to watch ourselves. Ensure we do not fall back into a '''love''' of sin. We can think we are ''saved'' but not be saved. Or as with your belief we are ''being saved'''. Either way, time and space are needed for us to prove to both ourselves and God as to where our heart lies with regards to our love or hatred of what is evil. Paul urges us to love what is good and hate what is wicked Rom 12:9, Rom 7:15. We may not be perfect, but hearts intention to hate wicked is real. God sees this in us Jer 17:9 and saves us.

Considering this. A belief in Purgatory is not completely illogical. Many ''seem'' to not have equal and fair opportunity, time and space. Catholics believe that those not fully sold out to sin and a love for it go there. Those utterly sold out to sin, those they would say continue unrepentant in mortal sins, do not go to Purgatory. They have had fair and equal opportunity and chosen to trample Jesus and the gospel underfoot. They have outright shown their hearts intention to God.

The only reason I don't believe in Purgatory is because I believe God does ensure time on earth is sufficient for all except for children under twenty and mentally handicapped. These I believe will get their chance to resist the tempter / sin in the millennium.

So, in a nutshell, it does really not seem like a satanic doctrine / belief someone who hates Jesus would believe.

This is your post #96 which is not Biblical in nature -- your stance on Purgatory.

 

[Sue D.]

@KingJ -- I'm trying to respond back to your post #120. It would appear that you're using the 1,000 reign of Christ here on earth as a replacement for purgatory.

God has Always known our hearts -- no need to prove Anything to Him. And what's that about 'except for children under twenty"? I'm thinking you're referring to the age of accountability which is around 4 or 5 or so. A person is considered an adult at 18 or in the Jewish religion it's 13 for boys.

It would appear that 'your stance' differs from Biblical teaching.

 

[Garee]

King J was quoting the word "institution" from me. I should clarify that a bit as I meant it to be used. The 16th century reformation was not a carbon copy of the 1st century establishment of Christianity. Christianity was a fulfillment to Judaism and not a replacement.



I would offer there is one bride of Christ made up of all the nations of the world .All flesh matters. Abel the first recorded member awaits the promise of the new .Hebrew 11 informs us as sons of God all die not receiving it .. Its not flesh and blood we do wrestle against .Believers as new creatures can seek the Highest power not seen enabled by His Holy Spirit The first love we return to when he does turn us to comfort and discipline

We simply do not know Christ after any man. God is not a man as us. Never was never could be .He has no beginning of days or end of Spirit life.

Corrupted Judaism is founded after the Pagan foundation of this world .”Out of sight out of mind” .No faith of Christ as it is written

The atheistic Jewish elders in 1 Samuel 8 gathered themselves together because of their jealousy of the surrounding pagan nation. They of no faith are also a called the evil generation un converted mankind.

No God.. . as it is written(sola scriptura) in their heart. God calls them fools. God told Samuel to give them what their evil heart desires . It was taken away at the 1st century reformation.

A time like never before or ever again the gospel going out to the whole world 3000 from all nations heard the voice the promise of Joel .

The veil is rent .There was no Jewish King sitting in the holy of hollies .(government of the world) Satan fell not having the ability to deceive all the nations in that way ever again .We are the temple not made with human hands as a kingdom of priests. Our citizenship as His bride is not of here but the heavenly Jerusalem.

1 Samauel 8: 4-7 Then all the elders of Israel gathered themselves together, and came to Samuel unto Ramah, And said unto him, Behold, thou art old, and thy sons walk not in thy ways: now make us a king to judge us like all the nations. But the thing displeased Samuel, when they said, Give us a king to judge us. And Samuel prayed unto the Lord. And the Lord said unto Samuel, Hearken unto the voice of the people in all that they say unto thee: for they have not rejected thee, but they have rejected me, that I should not reign over them.

Rejecting God in order to set up their own worldly government or kingdom having become jealous of the surrounding Pagan nation that walked by sight .Venerable men lording it over the faith of the non-venerable. When the time of reformation came that form of govern was made desolate when Jesus walked out .He declared it desolate. Putting the abomination of desolation to rest (kings in Israel

In Acts 22 we are shown that kind of work. Having all the appeal to the eye, the correct teachers, speaking the venerable language . Men are sent out with letter of approval from the high Priest or what some called Pope (the infallible figure head or idol) to remove there existence (out of sight out of mind) the punishment for not bowing down to the High Priest or Pope. Again as a government of this world.

Acts22:3-5 I am verily a man which am a Jew, born in Tarsus, a city in Cilicia, yet brought up in this city at the feet of Gamaliel, and taught according to the perfect manner of the law of the fathers, and was zealous toward God, as ye all are this day. And I persecuted this way unto the death, binding and delivering into prisons both men and women. As also the high priest doth bear me witness, and all the estate of the elders: from whom also I received letters unto the brethren, and went to Damascus, to bring them which were there bound unto Jerusalem, for to be punished.

The law of the fathers as those who desire a “queen of heaven” as in “I heard it through the grape vine” an oral tradition of men it was made to no effect in Acts . A hierarchy of men called law of the fathers, kings, princes could not prove that all things written in the law and prophets was a heresy . Paul who had become a member of the first listed New Testament denomination had become one the leaders of the Nazarene sect, or also called the Way. Paul having received his new born again spirit and heart as a spiritual gift put his words in Paul’s mouth declared the word of God as a prophet.

God giving Paul his words to give in order us the understanding of God. (Not Paul) The law of the fathers says it is what the eyes as the Divine authority .

Acts 24:13-14 Neither can they prove the things whereof they now accuse me.But this I confess unto thee, that after the way which they call heresy, so worship I the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the law and in the prophets:



Regarding purgatory, I feel it is a bit like our penal system: if a dangerous offender is arrested for a crime, that person is kept in jail until sentencing, at which point they remain in jail. There is no posted bond which can be paid; you had your chance listening to the preachers and ignored them. I agree there are some who perish without making a final decision, but what undeniable proof are they seeking while still on this side of the grass? Cheers

I would offer we are condemned from birth . Objects of corruption the whole creation suffers it. .You will surly die .The mark of God’s word where does the idea of hidem mercy come from life beyon the last breath?

I would offer . Looking at the example found in Genesis 4 where Abel was murdered by the father of lies. An murderer or serial killer from that beginning. God having increased the load to take away any rest mankind might hope for like that of faithless Cain. . it would prove to be a false hope.

Cain replied the burden is greater that he could bear (no rest yoked with Christ as was Abel) . It was as if Cain desired to die. Saying those who find me will kill me. But God who declared by the mark of His word in so much what he says will come to pass. If any man takes the life of suffering with no rest .He will carry it out His will until the last day. Proving they also have no rest as did Abel The mark of the beast the mark of Cain . Mankind dead in their trespasses and sin without hope and God in this temporal earthy life under the sun .

Genesis 4:8-16 And Cain talked with Abel his brother: and it came to pass, when they were in the field, that Cain rose up against Abel his brother, and slew him. And the Lord said unto Cain, Where is Abel thy brother? And he said, I know not: Am I my brother's keeper? And he said, What hast thou done? the voice of thy brother's blood crieth unto me from the ground. And now art thou cursed from the earth, which hath opened her mouth to receive thy brother's blood from thy hand; When thou tillest the ground, it shall not henceforth yield unto thee her strength; a fugitive and a vagabond shalt thou be in the earth. And Cain said unto the Lord, My punishment is greater than I can bear Behold, thou hast driven me out this day from the face of the earth; and from thy face shall I be hid; and I shall be a fugitive and a vagabond in the earth; and it shall come to pass, that every one that findeth me shall slay me. And the Lord said unto him, Therefore whosoever slayeth Cain, vengeance shall be taken on him sevenfold. And the Lord set a mark upon Cain, lest any finding him should kill him.

There was no after life of a contnue punishment offered to a body that had returned dust or temporal spirit that had already retured to the father of all spirit life .

Some having a new born again spirit rise, others do not . . cannot .

If it is etenal suffering as some say then even Christ could not bear it .Its our eternal sufering according to his labor of love as a free gift of the fulness of His grace .He does not give one (a queen in heaven) the fullness and other demand them to continue suffering wondering id there will ever come a end .

 

[Garee]

Extra mercy? God is partial? This reply holds no water, can you better explain please, you just raise more questions.

Extra mercy implies that mankind does not die when they take their last breath and are buried . That would be in agreement with the father of lies Can't serve two teaching masters. Which one?

Genesis 3: 4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:

The letter of the law death (below) does not provide the extra mercy of purgatory . Purgatory like Limbo . . no such thing. No need.

Genesis 3: 3 But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die.