Is purgatory a myth and where did it come from?

[PloughBoy]

To start with, I have no issue at all with the RCC...I dealt with that more than a half century ago...The only reason I am talking about it is because there was a question asked. Actually too, Hebrews 9:27 is probably the best verse, it cancels out completely the doctrine of purgatory....If you choose to believe that verse.

Deuteronomy 30:19-20 Complete Jewish Bible (CJB)

19 “I call on heaven and earth to witness against you today that I have presented you with life and death, the blessing and the curse. Therefore, choose life, so that you will live, you and your descendants, 20 loving Adonai your God, paying attention to what he says and clinging to him — for that is the purpose of your life!

Every single solitary choice in our life is one of these two….No matter what you choose, it comes from either the Life cycle (I’ll call it that) or the Death cycle. Every choice you make leads to good or bad…

I said that to say this…Even what you choose to believe falls into one of the two cycles…What you believe can lead you to life or it can lead you to death. You believe in the salvation Jesus offers you, so you reach out and take it…You get life..Or if you choose not to believe, you do not reach out and take it…You get death/ hell/ the lake of fire

You choose to read good books…you grow/stretch you mind, stretch your thinking, see new possibilities Life

You choose bad books…you shrivel inside/ poison your mind and live in a dark hole all of your life (death) and then you die and again the lake of fire..

If what you choose to believe sets you free to fly, leads to heath, happiness and all the good stuff, then you chose life.

If what you choose to believe will either bring you into bondage, or leads to ruin, death, illness etc then you chose from the death side of your choice.

To simplify….Anything that puts you into bondage of any sort, anything that steals life from you is from the enemy…Satanic…Anything!

Anything that brings you life, health, wealth, freedom, happiness is from God…

There is no one sin worse than another, and unbelief is unbelief....There is only one level of unbelief.... One deception is the same as another....If you take it and go into unbelief you have chosen from the Death Cycle.....Satanic teaching

Goat herder theology. "That someone can even think they can place a title or label on GOD." The creator of all things that exists, that exists. Whether one calls it bad or Good! The Glory of God is express in all things, that exists. Whether "life or death", darkness or life", Good or what those call bad or evil, everything glorifies the will of GOD Almighty.

How can one Call GOD evil for sending an "Angel of Death" and command it to kill alll 1st born and the time children under the age of 2. And " Rachel weeping for her children she refuses to be comforted for her children, because they are no
more. Yet instead God was glorified even in their deaths.

 

[PloughBoy]

To start with, I have no issue at all with the RCC...I dealt with that more than a half century ago...The only reason I am talking about it is because there was a question asked. Actually too, Hebrews 9:27 is probably the best verse, it cancels out completely the doctrine of purgatory....If you choose to believe that verse.

Deuteronomy 30:19-20 Complete Jewish Bible (CJB)

19 “I call on heaven and earth to witness against you today that I have presented you with life and death, the blessing and the curse. Therefore, choose life, so that you will live, you and your descendants, 20 loving Adonai your God, paying attention to what he says and clinging to him — for that is the purpose of your life!

Every single solitary choice in our life is one of these two….No matter what you choose, it comes from either the Life cycle (I’ll call it that) or the Death cycle. Every choice you make leads to good or bad…

I said that to say this…Even what you choose to believe falls into one of the two cycles…What you believe can lead you to life or it can lead you to death. You believe in the salvation Jesus offers you, so you reach out and take it…You get life..Or if you choose not to believe, you do not reach out and take it…You get death/ hell/ the lake of fire

You choose to read good books…you grow/stretch you mind, stretch your thinking, see new possibilities Life

You choose bad books…you shrivel inside/ poison your mind and live in a dark hole all of your life (death) and then you die and again the lake of fire..

If what you choose to believe sets you free to fly, leads to heath, happiness and all the good stuff, then you chose life.

If what you choose to believe will either bring you into bondage, or leads to ruin, death, illness etc then you chose from the death side of your choice.

To simplify….Anything that puts you into bondage of any sort, anything that steals life from you is from the enemy…Satanic…Anything!

Anything that brings you life, health, wealth, freedom, happiness is from God…

There is no one sin worse than another, and unbelief is unbelief....There is only one level of unbelief.... One deception is the same as another....If you take it and go into unbelief you have chosen from the Death Cycle.....Satanic teaching

Goat herder theology. "That someone can even think they can place a title or label on GOD." The creator of all things that exists, that exists. Whether one calls it bad or Good! The Glory of God is express in all things, that exists. Whether "life or death", darkness or ligth", Good or what those call bad or evil, everything glorifies the will of GOD Almighty.

How can one Call GOD evil for sending an "Angel of Death" and command it to kill alll 1st born and the time children under the age of 2. And " Rachel weeping for her children she refuses to be comforted for her children, because they are no
more. Yet instead God was glorified even in their deaths.

 

[Garee]

Garee, those in the RCC that do teach on Purgatory teach it can be avoided by all. It is seen as extra time for those that still may have attachments and a desire for venial type sins. Extra time speaks to God's mercy.

There is no debate among any RCC member that ONLY Jesus can take one from death to life. From Purgatory to heaven.

As such it only denies the grace of God if you have absolutely no clue what they actually teach. Which is evident in you post.

I would offer the first error is dividing the wage of sin into compartments. This is where mankind would think the consequences of any sin was not eternal (venial and mortal). Any thing not of faith is sin. that sets the foundation for doing despite to the grace of God coming exclusively from the Father and Son labor of love.


It’s like venerable and non-venerable another of the traditions of man called a law of the fathers in the Bible. It makes sola scriptura (all things written in the law and the prophets) desolate without effect. The wage of sin is death. We are living in bodies of death as proof. There is no suffering after a person breaths their last breath

No such things as extra mercy for venerable ones. Mercy triumphs over judgment completly leaving no remnant .

Because we follow the perfect law in the book of the law the Bible we know God’s judgment is either yes or no. No limbo leading to suffering after one take their last breath. It’s Lucifer the father of lies that tries to assure mankind they will not die. Ssssss You will not surely die look at me a live who needs to believe in a God not seen??? the fall..

Those born again receive the fullness of Christ’s grace, the end of their new faith from the very beginning . . We look back to that fullness of grace they looked ahead by the faith of Christ that di work in them. They as natural unconverted mankind simply teach a graceless gospel

1 Peter 1:9-11 Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls. Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you: Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.

That would sem to make them that follow a law of the fathers as oral traditions of men that say only a "queen of heaven received" the fullness of Christ grace (the work of the father and Son) all other they receive a unknown remnant calling it extra mercy . Leaving them to continue to wonder how much longer and wonder how severe of punishment for not receiving the fullness of grace like the queen they worship .

The idea of mortal and venial opens the way for man to wonder, wonder , wornder rather than coming to an end and believe sola scriptura (all things written in the law and prophets.).

 

[Garee]

Goat herder theology. "That someone can even think they can place a title or label on GOD." The creator of all things that exists, that exists. Whether one calls it bad or Good! The Glory of God is express in all things, that exists. Whether "life or death", darkness or life", Good or what those call bad or evil, everything glorifies the will of GOD Almighty.

How can one Call GOD evil for sending an "Angel of Death" and command it to kill alll 1st born and the time children under the age of 2. And " Rachel weeping for her children she refuses to be comforted for her children, because they are no
more. Yet instead God was glorified even in their deaths.

He declared it good as he created it. His seal of approval .Only God is good. That was ...before he corrupted the entire creation rendering it dead, useless .

Darknes or night is not attributed to good .There will be no night in the new heavens and earth .

God was glorified when he did corupt it .His glory departed we can recieve it by faith. A man must be born again.

 

[PloughBoy]

He declared it good as he created it. His seal of approval .Only God is good. That was ...before he corrupted the entire creation rendering it dead, useless .

Darknes or night is not attributed to good .There will be no night in the new heavens and earth .

God was glorified when he did corupt it .His glory departed we can recieve it by faith. A man must be born again.

Oh it is so nice for you to explain what GOD could not explain, to own His children.

 

[Garee]

Oh it is so nice for you to explain what GOD could not explain, to own His children.

Why would that be? What prevented Him?

Did he declare darkness as good? Or did he declare light good because it works to seperate it from darkness ?The light of the gospel.

On the forrth day his glory deprted and he swtiched on the temporal time keepers under the Sun .The Sun and the Moon . they which are runing out of time will disapear on the last day when he tosses death in the jugdement fire (the letter of the law.) the death of death. . It will not rise up and condemn another entire creation to death .

 

[PloughBoy]

He declared it good as he created it. His seal of approval .Only God is good. That was ...before he corrupted the entire creation rendering it dead, useless .

Darknes or night is not attributed to good .There will be no night in the new heavens and earth .

God was glorified when he did corupt it .His glory departed we can recieve it by faith. A man must be born again.

Really!

 

[PloughBoy]

Why would that be? What prevented Him?

Did he declare darkness as good? Or did he declare light good because it works to seperate it from darkness ?The light of the gospel.

On the forrth day his glory deprted and he swtiched on the temporal time keepers under the Sun .The Sun and the Moon . they which are runing out of time will disapear on the last day when he tosses death in the jugdement fire (the letter of the law.) the death of death. . It will not rise up and condemn another entire creation to death .

 

[KingJ]

I would offer the first error is dividing the wage of sin into compartments. This is where mankind would think the consequences of any sin was not eternal (venial and mortal). Any thing not of faith is sin. that sets the foundation for doing despite to the grace of God coming exclusively from the Father and Son labor of love.

You are quoting Rom 14:23 and using it as your A-Z understanding on sin?

The point Paul is making is that nobody outside of Christianity / faith in Jesus can please God.

1. God does not change Heb 23:19. In the OT He ordained in His wisdom differing punishments for differing sins. Why?

2. Paul singles out a brother in incest, a sin not even mentioned among heathens, in 1 Cor 5. Why?

3. Jesus says that thoughts of adultery is a sin Matt 5:28 but then merely four verses later says to not divorce unless there is actual adultery Matt 5:32.

4. Sodom was destroyed because their sins were grievous Gen 18:10.

Sin is sin and sin has degrees. Unrepentant in venial sin and giving in to mortal sins points to a rotten heart condition. Our heart intent is everything. Paul says he does what he hates in Rom 7:15 and God makes it crystal clear that He searches our hearts in Jer 17:9-11.

 

[Garee]

You are quoting Rom 14:23 and using it as your A-Z understanding on sin?

The point Paul is making is that nobody outside of Christianity / faith in Jesus can please God.

1. God does not change Heb 23:19. In the OT He ordained in His wisdom differing punishments for differing sins. Why?

2. Paul singles out a brother in incest, a sin not even mentioned among heathens, in 1 Cor 5. Why?

3. Jesus says that thoughts of adultery is a sin Matt 5:28 but then merely four verses later says to not divorce unless there is actual adultery Matt 5:32.

4. Sodom was destroyed because their sins were grievous Gen 18:10.

Sin is sin and sin has degrees. Unrepentant in venial sin and giving in to mortal sins points to a rotten heart condition. Our heart intent is everything. Paul says he does what he hates in Rom 7:15 and God makes it crystal clear that He searches our hearts in Jer 17:9-11.

The wage of sin according to the letter of the law is death never to rise to new spiritual life.

God does not divide sin into compartments (venial and moral) as a way of widening the lack of grace or what they say extend mercy past the ones last breath .This is seeing they do not receive the fullness of grace as the end of the faith the salvation of our soul. They teach they have received a unknown amount of grace with the exception of a queen in heaven she alone received the fullness of grace. And they must continue to suffer for an unknown period. No end to that faith (the salvation of one’s soul.. . Limbo/ Purgatory. The false doctrine of wondering and more wondering again with no end in sight.

Christians do receive the end of their new faith the fullness of Christ’ grace through the labor of love which comes by the work of the Son and the unseen Father .

It is appointed for all men to die once. Some are given a new born again spirit that will rise on the last day . Then comes the judgment of the letter of the law "death" and its suffering called hell. The letter of the law; “ thou shall not eat or you will die”. It will not rise up and condemn an entire creation through corruption ever again for ever more. The old things (thou shall surely die). . Will not be remembered or come to mind forever more.

Isaiah 65:17 For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind

Revelation 21:4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

 

[KingJ]

God does not divide sin into compartments (venial and moral)

You are so evasive.

I gave you four facts proving He does. Your reply does not address any of them, just more of your tiresome, mindless application of cherry picked scripture.

 

[Gregoryp]

Let me share a parable that should explain the foolishness of purgatory. Once upon a time, a certain God seperates the unholy, Godless, unrepentant people from his beloved children. These bad people are sent to an active volcano in the middle of the ocean, no vegetation, no animals, nothing but rock and sulphur fumes. The rest are settled on a tropical island, with said God as there beloved elder. We are in paradise in other words. One day as we are laying on the beach suntanning with our beloved God , someone cries out " I SEE A CRUISESHIP HEADING THIS WAY" on board this cruise ship are of course people from volcano island! Do you see the craziness of that?? After God asking these people to join him time and time again, they reject him.Now that same God gathers them up and has them live amongst us saints?? Do you now see the utter foolishness of purgatory?

 

[KingJ]

Let me share a parable that should explain the foolishness of purgatory. Once upon a time, a certain God seperates the unholy, Godless, unrepentant people from his beloved children. These bad people are sent to an active volcano in the middle of the ocean, no vegetation, no animals, nothing but rock and sulphur fumes. The rest are settled on a tropical island, with said God as there beloved elder. We are in paradise in other words. One day as we are laying on the beach suntanning with our beloved God , someone cries out " I SEE A CRUISESHIP HEADING THIS WAY" on board this cruise ship are of course people from volcano island! Do you see the craziness of that?? After God asking these people to join him time and time again, they reject him.Now that same God gathers them up and has them live amongst us saints?? Do you now see the utter foolishness of purgatory?

This is a terribly silly analogy. Shows you have absolutely no clue.

A better example would be....

Some go to the tropical island and some to the volcano, to live next to it, not in it. Many are on the fence in a field between the two. Still undecided as to where they want to be. That is purgatory.

.- The tropical island analogy is correct. Abrahams bosom and heaven are beautiful.
- The volcano analogy is incorrect. The fires of hell are not on par with someone being thrown into a volcano.

Those that go to the tropical island will be true Christians. Those that truly accepted Jesus as they truly hated what was evil and repented sincerely of their sins. Those that go straight to the island with a volcano on it, outright hated what is good, chose to love sin and therefore completely reject the light / Jesus John 3:19. Those in the field between the two are battling with a love of venial sins, ''some'' are guilty of once off mortal sins they can't properly repent of.

Not sure about you, but I currently battle daily with venial sins. So too did Paul Rom 7:15. Paul never battled with mortal sins, he stopped murdering people when he accepted Jesus. This truth should make us grasp the fact that those who believe in and teach Purgatory are not trying to mock the cross. In fact it speaks to them teaching that God is sensible and graceful.

 

[Gregoryp]

This is a terribly silly analogy. Shows you have absolutely no clue.

A better example would be....

Some go to the tropical island and some to the volcano, to live next to it, not in it. Many are on the fence in a field between the two. Still undecided as to where they want to be. That is purgatory.

.- The tropical island analogy is correct. Abrahams bosom and heaven are beautiful.
- The volcano analogy is incorrect. The fires of hell are not on par with someone being thrown into a volcano.

Those that go to the tropical island will be true Christians. Those that truly accepted Jesus as they truly hated what was evil and repented sincerely of their sins. Those that go straight to the island with a volcano on it, outright hated what is good, chose to love sin and therefore completely reject the light / Jesus John 3:19. Those in the field between the two are battling with a love of venial sins, ''some'' are guilty of once off mortal sins they can't properly repent of.

Not sure about you, but I currently battle daily with venial sins. So too did Paul Rom 7:15. Paul never battled with mortal sins, he stopped murdering people when he accepted Jesus. This truth should make us grasp the fact that those who believe in and teach Purgatory are not trying to mock the cross. In fact it speaks to them teaching that God is sensible and graceful.

this means that what Jesus did on the cross is null and void. As Jesus died for all our sins. You have a choice, the world or Jesus and his way, there is no compromise and therefore it has to be one or the other. Any sins you are still doing shows the holy spirit may not be within you.

 

[Garee]

You are so evasive.

I gave you four facts proving He does. Your reply does not address any of them, just more of your tiresome, mindless application of cherry picked scripture.

Venial and mortal That idea is not to found in the Bible

You canot give something that is not there to begin with . All sin is rejection of truth. You can twist and turn it but at the end of the day the letter of the law "death" brinings "death" not extra mercy

Its not even what some call cherry picking .There is no cherry to pick. Its is a false doctrine of those who serve a heirachy of men that sell time shares of mercy to lessen and unknow amount .No end to that suffering in sight. The gospel of wondering

Rom 14:23 is the A-Z understanding on the one wage of sin "death" . A person needs eternal life to be born again before thier last breath .. If they have eternal life the idea of getting a unknown remnant of grace is made to no effect.

The wage is death never to rise to new spirit life . No such thing as "exta mercy" after one takes their last breath . Again no purgatory cheries to pick.

 

[B-A-C]

The wage is death never to rise to new spirit life .

I agree with you on the purgatory part. No second chances. But even the wicked will rise again.

John 5:28; "Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs will hear His voice,
John 5:29; and will come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment.

Acts 24:15; having a hope in God, which these men cherish themselves, that there shall certainly be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked.

 

[KingJ]

Venial and mortal That idea is not to found in the Bible

You canot give something that is not there to begin with . All sin is rejection of truth.

The word trinity is not in the bible and yet its borderline heresy to reject it.

I gave you four powerful arguments that support mortal and venial sins.

You have still not addressed them......

Just say '''I have ignored your post proving mortal and venial sins exist. I cannot debunk anything you have said, please let me remain in my cocoon''.

You don't discuss or debate, you just keep spouting your cherry picked idealogy.

 

[KingJ]

this means that what Jesus did on the cross is null and void.

No, it does not. Please read my post # 96.

It is quite rude to jump in at the end of thread and raise arguments already discussed as though they have not been.

As Jesus died for all our sins. You have a choice, the world or Jesus and his way, there is no compromise and therefore it has to be one or the other. Any sins you are still doing shows the holy spirit may not be within you.

So, you don't sin?

 

[Gregoryp]

No, it does not. Please read my post # 96.

It is quite rude to jump in at the end of thread and raise arguments already discussed as though they have not been.



So, you don't sin?

not willfully , no

 

[KingJ]

not willfully , no

Gregory, I agree with this and this statement by you ''You have a choice, the world or Jesus and his way'',.

You just need to read some of my posts here to understand my view on Purgatory. Like post # 96 for example.