Is suicide a sin? Do you go to hell for it?

[s.i.e.]

can you love without showing it? Can you know that i love you unless I show this love to you??

I hear you, Bright...and I think I agree with much of what you say here. As for love...perhaps it's a question of how it is, or can be, shown. Shown seems to imply something more tangible than how I think love can be. Shown could imply a presentation, or a demonstration, etc. Love just IS or IS NOT, right? Yes, it may manifest itself in signs. I don't think love requires signs...but it may show them.

The one objection or caution I have is that you daily come into repentance because it is requirement for continued salvation, which is false and can lead to bondage. In this case, the bondage would be, if you don't repent daily you loose your salvation. Another untruth are those who hear you say this and say you beleive that you can sin all you want , which could not be farther from the truth; no "Born Again" Christian wants to sin indescriminately!

I'm not sure I understand what your position is on these subject RJ...but I don't believe our salvation is performance based, or that daily repentence is a "requirement" for us to be "continually saved". Maybe you're agreeing with me on that. Can't quite tell. That's ok. I agree with you that if we're saved, our hearts would be positioned as such that we would be prone to come to repentence, often!

I feel it would fall more in line with the "few stripes/many stripes category.It's difficult to think of a sinister reason someone might kill themselves.But they would still have to face things done in the flesh before death.The fact that a murderer can repent and a suicide can't being a factor assumes God has no sense of fairness and will burn you on a technicality.Besides in Jesus's story of the rich man and Lazarus there is no indication that the rich man could not repent.He wanted Lazarus to come and serve him.He could speak just fine to Abraham.

Thanks Thiscross...that makes sense, and that helps. Thanks

You only have to repent once to be saved. You only have to agree one single time with God that through Jesus Christ you are saved. All sin has been forgiven, accept it and go about your life happier than before.

I agree.

By the way, great question, I have been wondering this for a while, since a friend of mine did this a while ago. :/

well then, danni...what say you?

 

[RJ]

I hear you, Bright...and I think I agree with much of what you say here. As for love...perhaps it's a question of how it is, or can be, shown. Shown seems to imply something more tangible than how I think love can be. Shown could imply a presentation, or a demonstration, etc. Love just IS or IS NOT, right? Yes, it may manifest itself in signs. I don't think love requires signs...but it may show them.



I'm not sure I understand what your position is on these subject RJ...but I don't believe our salvation is performance based, or that daily repentence is a "requirement" for us to be "continually saved". Maybe you're agreeing with me on that. Can't quite tell. That's ok. I agree with you that if we're saved, our hearts would be positioned as such that we would be prone to come to repentence, often!



Thanks Thiscross...that makes sense, and that helps. Thanks



I agree.



well then, danni...what say you?

You would have to have followed a previous thread.That was a rhetorical comment for those who believe that repentance is the same as asking for forgiveness and must be done daily. Repentance, when you think of doing it, is a state of remorse or regret and should not be mistaken with for asking Christ for what he has already given you, which is forgiveness.

 

[dannibear]

well then, danni...what say you?

I want to say that it's a sin, but is forgiven, and then
I want to say it's not a sin...I am honestly afraid of
giving a wrong answer. I need to do more research into
the Word on this.

 

[judgement]

suicide=murder=hell

My dear children, I write this to you so that you will not sin. But if anybody does sin, we have one who speaks to the Father in our defense--Jesus Christ, the Righteous One. 2 He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.3 We know that we have come to know him if we obey his commands.4 The man who says, "I know him," but does not do what he commands is a liar, and the truth is not in him.5 But if anyone obeys his word, God's love is truly made complete in him. This is how we know we are in him: 6 Whoever claims to live in him must walk as Jesus did 7. 1 john 2:1-7} Children of God
28 And now, dear children, continue in him, so that when he appears we may be confident and unashamed before him at his coming.29 If you know that he is righteous, you know that everyone who does what is right has been born of him.1 john 2:28-29} Love One Another
11 This is the message you heard from the beginning: We should love one another.12 Do not be like Cain, who belonged to the evil one and murdered his brother. And why did he murder him? Because his own actions were evil and his brother's were righteous.13 Do not be surprised, my brothers, if the world hates you.14 We know that we have passed from death to life, because we love our brothers. Anyone who does not love remains in death.15 Anyone who hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life in him.16.1 john 3:11-16} the only christians that i talk to who believe that you can take your life as a christian and still enter heaven are once saved and always saved no matter what they do.

 

[Fraction]

My dear children, I write this to you so that you will not sin. But if anybody does sin, we have one who speaks to the Father in our defense--Jesus Christ, the Righteous One. 2 He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.3 We know that we have come to know him if we obey his commands.4 The man who says, "I know him," but does not do what he commands is a liar, and the truth is not in him.5 But if anyone obeys his word, God's love is truly made complete in him. This is how we know we are in him: 6 Whoever claims to live in him must walk as Jesus did 7. 1 john 2:1-7} Children of God
28 And now, dear children, continue in him, so that when he appears we may be confident and unashamed before him at his coming.29 If you know that he is righteous, you know that everyone who does what is right has been born of him.1 john 2:28-29} Love One Another
11 This is the message you heard from the beginning: We should love one another.12 Do not be like Cain, who belonged to the evil one and murdered his brother. And why did he murder him? Because his own actions were evil and his brother's were righteous.13 Do not be surprised, my brothers, if the world hates you.14 We know that we have passed from death to life, because we love our brothers. Anyone who does not love remains in death.15 Anyone who hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life in him.16.1 john 3:11-16} the only christians that i talk to who believe that you can take your life as a christian and still enter heaven are once saved and always saved no matter what they do.

What must we do to obtain eternal life?

Have faith.

Just saying.

 

[RJ]

I want to say that it's a sin, but is forgiven, and then
I want to say it's not a sin...I am honestly afraid of
giving a wrong answer. I need to do more research into
the Word on this.

I would add this to my other comments. Of course it is a sin. Anything that is outside of God's perfect will and being separates us from him, anything. Imperfection (us) can not coexist in eternity with perfection (God). We couldn't do the Ten Commandments perfectly and we can't do the love (God's love) found in 1 Corinthians 13 perfectly either.

The day we die, he perfects us and we look at him Face to Face and know him as perfectly as he knows us (1 COR 13:12). Until then, Jesus lives in us and bridges the gap between us and God.

When it comes to perfection, all sin has the same effect on our imperfection and suicide, in that regard, is no difference than things like lying,doubt, negativity and countless others. Also, only God's truly knows who is saved and, I believe, depending on a person's mental state at the time of suicide, it is totally plausible that they could die saved.

 

[Fraction]

I would add this to my other comments. Of course it is a sin. Anything that is outside of God's perfect will and being separates us from him, anything. Imperfection (us) can not coexist in eternity with perfection (God). We couldn't do the Ten Commandments perfectly and we can't do the love (God's love) found in 1 Corinthians 13 perfectly either.

The day we die, he perfects us and we look at him Face to Face and know him as perfectly as he knows us (1 COR 13:12). Until then, Jesus lives in us and bridges the gap between us and God.

When it comes to perfection, all sin has the same effect on our imperfection and suicide, in that regard, is no difference than things like lying,doubt, negativity and countless others. Also, only God's truly knows who is saved and, I believe, depending on a person's mental state at the time of suicide, it is totally plausible that they could die saved.

In response to your other recent post, repentance is a change of mind and heart. It isn't feeling sorry or guilty. It's in a word, an agreement. You go from not agreeing, to agreeing. Not believing, to believing. Has nothing to do with feeling remorse.

Our hearts are perfected when we accept Jesus Christ. They grow into our hearts as soon as we have faith. They cannot be in the presence of sin. Our bodies are expendable and not important, right from the start. Our bodies are doomed. Our hearts are what matters to God. Our hearts are perfect while they are imbued with the Holy Spirit. This can be assumed because like I said just now, God cannot be in the presence of sin.

Also 1 Cor 13:12 is talking about the change from not being saved to being saved. Look at the verse before that. We come face to face with ourselves, rather than a reflection. We can truly recognize ourselves. It is not talking about going face to face with God. At least....this is what I see. o.o

 

[RJ]

In response to your other recent post, repentance is a change of mind and heart. It isn't feeling sorry or guilty. It's in a word, an agreement. You go from not agreeing, to agreeing. Not believing, to believing. Has nothing to do with feeling remorse.

Our hearts are perfected when we accept Jesus Christ. They grow into our hearts as soon as we have faith. They cannot be in the presence of sin. Our bodies are expendable and not important, right from the start. Our bodies are doomed. Our hearts are what matters to God. Our hearts are perfect while they are imbued with the Holy Spirit. This can be assumed because like I said just now, God cannot be in the presence of sin.

Also 1 Cor 13:12 is talking about the change from not being saved to being saved. Look at the verse before that. We come face to face with ourselves, rather than a reflection. We can truly recognize ourselves. It is not talking about going face to face with God. At least....this is what I see. o.o

In response to your other recent post, repentance is a change of mind and heart. It isn't feeling sorry or guilty. It's in a word, an agreement. You go from not agreeing, to agreeing. Not believing, to believing. Has nothing to do with feeling remorse. Remorse is the same as regret and yes it is a change of heart. I don't know about you but when God reveals my sin to me, I sure do regret it and thank him for what he did on the Cross for me! He calls me repentance often!

Also 1 Cor 13:12 is talking about the change from not being saved to being saved. Look at the verse before that. We come face to face with ourselves, rather than a reflection. We can truly recognize ourselves. It is not talking about going face to face with God. At least....this is what I see. o.o[/QUOTE] I have to respectfully disagree! Paul is talking to the saved here and salvation happens the very second that you are indwelt with the Holy Spirit.
The "Face to Face" is talking about God. It goes all the way back to Exodus when God said to Moses: " For no man can see my face and live", no human that is. Jews of that day where horrified of seeing God face to face; this can only happen when you are fully sanctified, that is why Paul says: " when the imperfection leaves and the perfection comes. Paul says for now, we see dimly as in a poor reflection (mirror). In those days a mirror was a shinny piece of Brass and not a true reflection of ourselves in heaven. Paul also says that when we are perfected, we will know God as well as he knows us. This is all a picture of heaven; when we will love perfectly.

 

[Fraction]

In response to your other recent post, repentance is a change of mind and heart. It isn't feeling sorry or guilty. It's in a word, an agreement. You go from not agreeing, to agreeing. Not believing, to believing. Has nothing to do with feeling remorse. Remorse is the same as regret and yes it is a change of heart. I don't know about you but when God reveals my sin to me, I sure do regret it and thank him for what he did on the Cross for me! He calls me repentance often!

Also 1 Cor 13:12 is talking about the change from not being saved to being saved. Look at the verse before that. We come face to face with ourselves, rather than a reflection. We can truly recognize ourselves. It is not talking about going face to face with God. At least....this is what I see. o.o

I have to respectfully disagree! Paul is talking to the saved here and salvation happens the very second that you are indwelt with the Holy Spirit.
The "Face to Face" is talking about God. It goes all the way back to Exodus when God said to Moses: " For no man can see my face and live", no human that is. Jews of that day where horrified of seeing God face to face; this can only happen when you are fully sanctified, that is why Paul says: " when the imperfection leaves and the perfection comes. Paul says for now, we see dimly as in a poor reflection (mirror). In those days a mirror was a shinny piece of Brass and not a true reflection of ourselves in heaven. Paul also says that when we are perfected, we will know God as well as he knows us. This is all a picture of heaven; when we will love perfectly.
[/QUOTE]


I think that once saved, we lay our sinful nature in front of God. Not just sins individual, but sinful nature as a whole. So simply by agreeing with God on his words, we live in repentance. I believe that is a constant mode that remains active as long as there is faith. One cannot have one without the other. This is only my opinion and what I get from scripture. Just trying to explain myself so I don't look a little loopy lol. ^.^

Thank you for RESPECTIVELY disagreeing with me lol. I appreciate your honesty and your straight forward respect and niceness. We both share different opinions and views on this certain text. It is wonderful to see that you respect this. I thank you very much.

 

[Crossbearer]

Yes, whether saved or not. Yes.

I believe that it is a sin for anyone to commit suicide because to God, all life is sacred, His creation. And I also believe that you will go to Hell for it because it's like you are telling God, "You are not in control here, I am and there is nothing You could ever do to help me, so I am turning my back on You." I have been in places in my life and sunk so deeply that I know without a shadow of a doubt that while I was in the place I was in, If I had died, or killed myself, I would most surely have went to Hell. I felt damned. But, after I became reconciled to Him, I knew that He had forgiven me and no lie or anything that the accuser of the brethren might try to tell me will make me doubt this. You see, I have God's assurance that I've been redeemed. I have been a Christian for almost 30 years and until you have been in this place, you don't know just how wide and deep is the love of God.

 

[RJ]

I believe that it is a sin for anyone to commit suicide because to God, all life is sacred, His creation. And I also believe that you will go to Hell for it because it's like you are telling God, "You are not in control here, I am and there is nothing You could ever do to help me, so I am turning my back on You." I have been in places in my life and sunk so deeply that I know without a shadow of a doubt that while I was in the place I was in, If I had died, or killed myself, I would most surely have went to Hell. I felt damned. But, after I became reconciled to Him, I knew that He had forgiven me and no lie or anything that the accuser of the brethren might try to tell me will make me doubt this. You see, I have God's assurance that I've been redeemed. I have been a Christian for almost 30 years and until you have been in this place, you don't know just how wide and deep is the love of God.

I understand your thought pattern and in some circumstances it may very well be true what you say. But saying that, I have one question for you:
Unless you do not believe in mental illness, my question would what if there is no doubt that you are saved and for what ever reason , you completely loose your mind, go insane and commit suicide, what then?

 

[Thiscrosshurts]

The insane man in the tombs was hurting himself and others and if he had died in that state would God condemn him for it,when his son who represented his will had mercy on him?

This is an account of what Jesus referred to often as sleep.
The word Hades is actually describing the Jewish belief of Sheol(the grave).
It is interesting to note that he can converse freely with the other side called "Abraham’s bosom".
He could talk to Abraham but never asked for forgiveness.
It claims he was in torment and the only remedy he wanted was to cool his tongue.Because the tongue is set on fire of Gehenna.

I feel that someone who is tormented but has a good heart and no judgement or unforgiveness who has only experienced bad things in life would probably be comforted not tortured for eternity.


Luke 16:
22“Now the poor man died and was carried away by the angels to Abraham’s bosom; and the rich man also died and was buried.
23“In Hades he lifted up his eyes, being in torment, and saw Abraham far away and Lazarus in his bosom.
24“And he cried out and said, ‘Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus so that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool off my tongue, for I am in agony in this flame.’
25“But Abraham said, ‘Child, remember that during your life you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus bad things; but now he is being comforted here, and you are in agony.
26‘And besides all this, between us and you there is a great chasm fixed, so that those who wish to come over from here to you will not be able, and that none may cross over from there to us.’
27“And he said, ‘Then I beg you, father, that you send him to my father’s house—
28for I have five brothers—in order that he may warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.’
29“But Abraham said, ‘They have Moses and the Prophets; let them hear them.’
30“But he said, ‘No, father Abraham, but if someone goes to them from the dead, they will repent!’
31“But he said to him, ‘If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be persuaded even if someone rises from the dead.’”

Could the rich man repent? We are not told but he can converse with the other side and that is VERY important to note.His concern for his brothers does show that repentance is easier on this side of the grave.But does not negate the possibility of working out something in the afterlife is possible.

To me the rich man still seems unrepentant and even pompous when he requests Lazarus to serve him in the afterlife.

James 3:6 And the tongue is a fire, the very world of iniquity; the tongue is set among our members as that which defiles the entire body, and sets on fire the course of our life, and is set on fire by Gehenna.

 

[s.i.e.]

I feel that someone who is tormented but has a good heart and no judgement or unforgiveness who has only experienced bad things in life would probably be comforted not tortured for eternity.

I tend to agree with you, thiscross.

 

[Crossbearer]

Mental Illness

That is a very good question, RJ. As a matter of fact, that is what I do, I work in a residential care home with mentally ill people. I'm not saying that they are all like this, but I think that the meds that they are on play a big role in their actions and reactions. It's really sad and I wish that I had a say so to the clinician who prescribes them some of these meds. I'm not sure, but after dealing with and talking with all 18 of ours, I would say that onle 1, maybe two of them are saved. The rest of them love to watch Jerry Springer every weekday and get upset if they miss it. Talk about torture for me! I am cooking in the kitchen at the time it comes on, so I don't have to hear much, thank the Lord.

 

[Fraction]

That is a very good question, RJ. As a matter of fact, that is what I do, I work in a residential care home with mentally ill people. I'm not saying that they are all like this, but I think that the meds that they are on play a big role in their actions and reactions. It's really sad and I wish that I had a say so to the clinician who prescribes them some of these meds. I'm not sure, but after dealing with and talking with all 18 of ours, I would say that onle 1, maybe two of them are saved. The rest of them love to watch Jerry Springer every weekday and get upset if they miss it. Talk about torture for me! I am cooking in the kitchen at the time it comes on, so I don't have to hear much, thank the Lord.

How do you know that they are not saved? Did they tell you they do not believe in Jesus Christ?

 

[RJ]

That is a very good question, RJ. As a matter of fact, that is what I do, I work in a residential care home with mentally ill people. I'm not saying that they are all like this, but I think that the meds that they are on play a big role in their actions and reactions. It's really sad and I wish that I had a say so to the clinician who prescribes them some of these meds. I'm not sure, but after dealing with and talking with all 18 of ours, I would say that onle 1, maybe two of them are saved. The rest of them love to watch Jerry Springer every weekday and get upset if they miss it. Talk about torture for me! I am cooking in the kitchen at the time it comes on, so I don't have to hear much, thank the Lord.

Looks like you have a great opportunity to spread the love and be a witness!

 

[jus1ofHis]

i watched a very interesting video on youtube called NDE suicide..wow

 

[Ramy Hanna]

if killing a human is a sin, then killing myself must be a sin too since I'm a human, yet if someone suffers a serious mental troubles, I believe he or she won't be judged as a murderer even if murdering others not just oneself.
but if someone is in a good brain condition then the killer will be judged for murdering even if it was oneself murdering.

 

[palms25]

If you are contmeplating suicide chances are you are already in hell! Killing youself as an escape from issues you are currently facing may not work for you may still have to deal with these issues in another context. SO questions of going to hell are irrelevent to someone who feels they are already there

 

[s.i.e.]

If you are contmeplating suicide chances are you are already in hell! Killing youself as an escape from issues you are currently facing may not work for you may still have to deal with these issues in another context. SO questions of going to hell are irrelevent to someone who feels they are already there

that's a good point, palms25. Of course, when I presented the poll, I was assuming that everyone would consider "hell" to be a place that people may go to in the afterlife, not just a state of mind, etc.

So, from a state-of-mind perspective, I can only agree with you...but in terms of where someone may then go to in the afterlife, not sure if or how that relates.

...of course, a discussion on "what is hell, really?" could make for another fairly extensive thread