many or few?

[Sue D.]

• 1Kings 22:19 . . I saw the LORD sitting on his throne, and all the host of heaven
standing by him on his right hand and on his left.

The Hebrew word translated "heaven" is shamayim (shaw-mah'-yim) which first
appears in Gen 1:1, which states:

"In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth."

The plural form is useful when speaking of both aspects of the sky-- the atmosphere
where clouds abide, and the celestial void where astronomical objects abide.

The "host of heaven" mostly refers to celestial objects, e.g. the Sun, the Moon,
and all that shines at night, i.e. stars, planets, nebula, galaxies, meteors, etc. but
not always.

The host of heaven in 1Kings 22:19 is commonly assumed to be angels; but the
thing is; they're not all holy angels because one of them can't be trusted.

"A spirit came forward, stood before the LORD and said: I will entice him.. . . I will
go out and be a lying spirit in the mouths of all his prophets." (1Kings 22:21-22)

Here lately I've begun to suspect that something very strange and unusual has
been influencing American politics; and I can't help but wonder if that same lying
spirit hasn't been active of late in the mouths of our government's brain trust,
subtly steering this country down a road to ruin. And if so, is God behind it like
when He was behind Ahab's ruin?
_

1 Kings 22:19 "Then Micaiai said, Therefore hear the word of the Lord; I saw the Lord sitting on His throne, and all the host of heaven standing by, on His right hand and on His left."

That and the other passage. Yes, they are there.

And, yes, this administration is corrupt and is trying to tear this country down.

We Also need to realize that God sees the big picture in all of this mess that we live in. His Will is for our own good. God also allowed Egyptian slavery for 400 yr And He had Moses lead them out.

We're talking about God's Sovereignty. He's allowed Biden and Harris to be in office. And He's allowed COVID to exist.

How much freedom are 'we' willing to give up -- for the sake Of.

And we're talking about how We are treating God and His Word in this country. "We" have allowed God to be taken out of our school / no more prayer , Bible, The Ten Commandments.

And, what's more important -- this life that is temporary or that which is Eternal.

And it's Also very true that Now is when we are living.

Do 'we' really believe that God is really in control? Or do we only 'hope' He is. Our real 'hope' is in God through Jesus Christ. I'm using the word 'hope' in two ways -- the first is 'I sure Hope it's true , but don't know for sure' the Other being my 'hope/ trust' is in God.

'we' have a chance to find out what is really important to us. And who we're going to really listen to. And we Also need to be praying for Biden and Harris. They obviously need God / Jesus Christ.

 

[Reba1]

@Reba1 -- I'm not really sure what the question is that I'm supposed to be trying to answer. I"ve never gotten into Dispensational Theology / The Gospel Coalition area.

But you Did look up the term 'dispensation' -- good. I suspect that That is different from what you were brought up with?

No Sue, dispensationalism is what it is . Few modifications over the years but still the same dividing the people of God. In a short answer most dispensationalist treat the Body of Christ/His Church as plan "B" . Placing God's plan of Salvation in man's hands. ie: if the Jew had not rejected Jesus.....Yet we know from Genesis, Blood was shed for a sin covering. Isa 53:7 Tells us this ... He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth. Last but not least Rev_13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. I fully understand not every dispensationalist fits the exact same box.

Did you read how the Scriptures treat the word " Dispensation "

With out quoting the questions i will post them here is short form
Is todays Israel the same land mass as the the lard promised to Abram
You posted the covenant, implying the land, with Abraham was everlasting . Then why do they not have the same land . God keeps His word,

 

[Sue D.]

Eventually they will.

 

[Beetow]

• 1Tim 2:1-2a . . I urge, then, first of all, that requests, prayers, intercession and
thanksgiving be made for everyone-- for kings and all those in authority,

Before everybody goes running off to save the world we need to look at something
in the Bible that preceded Paul's writings.

• John 14:12-14 . .You can ask for anything in my name, and I will do it, because
the work of the Son brings glory to the Father. Yes, ask anything in my name, and I
will do it.

If and when Christians are obtaining poor results from praying according to that
passage in John, then I think it goes without saying that they will also obtain poor
results from praying according to the passage in 1Timothy.

NOTE: Jesus doesn't practice the average Christian's understanding of 1Tim 2:1-2a.
His prayers are quite a bit more discriminating; i.e. Christ prays only for his own
rather than for just any and all souls who happen to be human.

• John 17:8-10 . . I gave them the words you gave me and they accepted them.
They knew with certainty that I came from you, and they believed that you sent
me. I pray for them. I am not praying for the world, but for those you have given
me, for they are yours.

I seriously doubt that 1Tim 2:1-2a intends for Christians to pray indiscriminately,
i.e. for every Tom, Freddy, and Harriet on earth regardless of their character and/or
their spiritual condition. I believe 1Tim 2:1-2a should be applied intelligently rather
than mindlessly because intercession for the wrong kinds of folk is like cuddling up
to jackals and warthogs.

"Do not give what is holy to dogs, and do not throw your pearls before swine, lest
they trample them under their feet, and turn and tear you to pieces." (Matt 7:6)

An excellent application of 1Tim 2:1-4 is to pray that God thwart the ambitions of
any and all evil people in positions to do things that make it difficult, if not
impossible, for Christians to teach the Bible and practice its principles.

• 1Tim 2:2b-4 . . that we may live peaceful and quiet lives in all godliness and
holiness. This is good, and pleases God our Savior, who wants all men to be saved
and to come to a knowledge of the truth.

So; when it comes to people like Kim Jong-Un, Robert Mugabee, Xi Jinping, Saddam
Hussein, Muammar Gadaffi, Ali Khamenei, Bashar al-Assad, and certain elements of
American government, etc, it's best to express your fear of those kinds of people
rather than intercede for them-- following a certain passage in Ecclesiastes which says:
There's a time for seeking and a time for losing. In other words: A time to search
and a time to give it up for lost.

UPDATE: 224 days have elapsed since my first comment. If the figures in post No.5
are in the ball park, then something like 13,915,776 new arrivals have checked into
the fiery sector of Hades since Oct 08, 2020.
_

 

[Sue D.]

@Beetow -- prayer is our talking to God about Everything / Anything. And we Are to be praying for those in leadership. God works in mysterious ways. And we're Not meant To understand God and His ways.

Your passage in John 14: 12-14 NKJ " Most assuredly I saw to you, he who believes in Me, the works that I do he will do also; and greater works than these he will do; because I go to My Father."

ANd now you go to 1 Timothy 2: 1-2 " Therefore, I exhort first of all that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks be made for all men, vs 2 for kings and all who are in authority, that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and reverence."

Your interpretation / application of those verses leaves a bunch to be desired.

Praying for all -- God's Will being done.

And How would You know What the 'average Christian's understanding' Is?! Why not go on what Your understanding is.

Now you're going to John 17 -- Jesus Christ is praying to God, His Father.

"Intercession for the Wrong types of folks?" Oh, my. The 'right' types vs the 'wrong' types. How about the Fact that we're All born sinners. Or maybe I could ask -- what type of 'folk' are You? Would my praying for You be a 'waste' of my time or be a 'profitable' use of my time?

Okay -- how about the people who God knows Need some tribulation in their lives to help them become more Christ-like. Maybe they need what we would see as 'problems' to bring them to their needed salvation?

All those people you mentioned -- all those bad guys. Why be afraid of them? They, More than, Or as much as, other people Need our praying for them. We find it hard to believe that They are really people -- they too had parents -- they were once little, tiny babies. They all have a soul that will be or already Is in eternity.

It's definitely Not up to Us to determine who should or should Not end up in heaven or hell. That is strictly God's business. How we 'we' feel if we found out in eternity that one of those really nasty leaders actually accepted Jesus Christ as their personal Savior while in prison or where ever. Someone shared the Gospel with them and they accepted. And then they died. They'd be in heaven just we Like are.

In fact -- I'd heard some time ago -- some how that one of the notorious cartel people ended up in prison and was reached out to by another inmate who had come to Christ -- He accepted Christ and started sharing with another inmate -- gradually a prison Bible study got started. So ya never know who is going to have a positive influence on another 'unworthy' soul. But, then, again, who of us Are 'worthy'. No one.

And how many have checked into Heaven to be with Jesus Christ for all eternity.

 

[JerryfromMass]

• 1Tim 2:1-2a . . I urge, then, first of all, that requests, prayers, intercession and
thanksgiving be made for everyone-- for kings and all those in authority,

Before everybody goes running off to save the world we need to look at something
in the Bible that preceded Paul's writings.

• John 14:12-14 . .You can ask for anything in my name, and I will do it, because
the work of the Son brings glory to the Father. Yes, ask anything in my name, and I
will do it.

If and when Christians are obtaining poor results from praying according to that
passage in John, then I think it goes without saying that they will also obtain poor
results from praying according to the passage in 1Timothy.

NOTE: Jesus doesn't practice the average Christian's understanding of 1Tim 2:1-2a.
His prayers are quite a bit more discriminating; i.e. Christ prays only for his own
rather than for just any and all souls who happen to be human.

• John 17:8-10 . . I gave them the words you gave me and they accepted them.
They knew with certainty that I came from you, and they believed that you sent
me. I pray for them. I am not praying for the world, but for those you have given
me, for they are yours.

I seriously doubt that 1Tim 2:1-2a intends for Christians to pray indiscriminately,
i.e. for every Tom, Freddy, and Harriet on earth regardless of their character and/or
their spiritual condition. I believe 1Tim 2:1-2a should be applied intelligently rather
than mindlessly because intercession for the wrong kinds of folk is like cuddling up
to jackals and warthogs.

"Do not give what is holy to dogs, and do not throw your pearls before swine, lest
they trample them under their feet, and turn and tear you to pieces." (Matt 7:6)

An excellent application of 1Tim 2:1-4 is to pray that God thwart the ambitions of
any and all evil people in positions to do things that make it difficult, if not
impossible, for Christians to teach the Bible and practice its principles.

• 1Tim 2:2b-4 . . that we may live peaceful and quiet lives in all godliness and
holiness. This is good, and pleases God our Savior, who wants all men to be saved
and to come to a knowledge of the truth.

So; when it comes to people like Kim Jong-Un, Robert Mugabee, Xi Jinping, Saddam
Hussein, Muammar Gadaffi, Ali Khamenei, Bashar al-Assad, and certain elements of
American government, etc, it's best to express your fear of those kinds of people
rather than intercede for them-- following a certain passage in Ecclesiastes which says:
There's a time for seeking and a time for losing. In other words: A time to search
and a time to give it up for lost.

UPDATE: 224 days have elapsed since my first comment. If the figures in post No.5
are in the ball park, then something like 13,915,776 new arrivals have checked into
the fiery sector of Hades since Oct 08, 2020.
_

I'm sure there are well meaning Christians that pray Impreccatory prayers to God for God to deal with our enemies, both foreign and domestic, even though Jesus commanded "I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;" Matthew 5:44.

 

[Sue D.]

Sometimes it's hard to know how to pray. That's God's Will will be done. As we know it will be. His is really the only 'will' that matters. Maybe it's that 'we' will be able to accept what His Will is. Maybe we really enjoy the company of a certain person -- but God is the one who knows if that particular relationship is good for you. So -- something happens -- a choice is made -- maybe by the other person to leave the relationship. So - the relationship that had been wonderful ends. Are we willing to accept God's Will or be upset with Him. So -- being willing to accept God's Will. That the really nasty, bad guy will come to Christ.

 

[JerryfromMass]

Sometimes it's hard to know how to pray. That's God's Will will be done. As we know it will be. His is really the only 'will' that matters. Maybe it's that 'we' will be able to accept what His Will is. Maybe we really enjoy the company of a certain person -- but God is the one who knows if that particular relationship is good for you. So -- something happens -- a choice is made -- maybe by the other person to leave the relationship. So - the relationship that had been wonderful ends. Are we willing to accept God's Will or be upset with Him. So -- being willing to accept God's Will. That the really nasty, bad guy will come to Christ.

Hi Sue,

Pray not just for the really nasty bad guy, but also the seemingly goodie two-shoes (and everyone else) who may seem like the nicest person on earth but has not accepted Jesus Christ as Savior and Lord.

Blessings.

 

[Beetow]

One thing about prayer, intercession, and thanksgiving that should be emphasized
is the element of integrity. In other words: one's mouth really ought to match their
heart.

For example: supposing there's this Christian who despises Kim Jong-Un and
secretly wishes for him to die and go straight to Hell. Should they be offering
prayers, making intercession, and giving thanks for him? Absolutely not.

• 1Tim 2:8-9 . . I desire therefore that the men pray everywhere, lifting up holy
hands, without wrath and evil thoughts.
_

 

[Sue D.]

@Beetow -- I kind of suspect that there are Many people who do Not like Kim Jong-Un -- maybe not wishing for his death and then again , maybe they Do. But praying for him, Yes, absolutely. Our attitudes Toward him are hurting Us far more than him. The giving thanks for him? well -- we Do have the passage that says "In everything give thanks for that is the will of God in Christ Jesus for you." 1 Thessalonians 5:18 -- I guess that would apply to things happening to the individual.

God Is allowing him to do what he does for His purpose. So -- being thankful that God's purpose is being accomplished. Sounds a bit odd, but it Is there.

The passage you shared 1 Timothy 2:8-9 "I desire therefore that the men pray everywhere, lifting up holy hands, without wrath and doubting; in like manner, also, that the women adorn themselves in modest apparel, with propriety and moderation, not with braided hair or gold or earls or costly clothing."

And you Do sound like you're contradicting yourself a bit -- first you say Absolutely Not. and Then "without wrath and evil thoughts" So -- clean up Our attitudes and Then pray for him.

He's living in his own crazy world -- we can pray that That will be changed.

Prayer has a way of changing Us.

 

[Beetow]

• Rom 16:17-18 . . I urge you, brothers, beware of those who cause divisions and
put obstacles in your way that are contrary to the teaching you have learned. Keep
away from them. For such people are not serving our Lord Christ, but their own
appetites. By smooth talk and flattery they deceive the minds of naïve people.

Naïve folk can be characterized as credulous, i.e. easily convinced by slight or
uncertain evidence, viz: non critical thinkers.

"smooth talk" is the practice of sophistry; defined as a reason or an argument that
sounds correct but at its core is actually false; viz: subtly deceptive reasoning or
argumentation. Sophistry is typically rational, reasonable, and sensible; but the
thing to keep in mind is that faith believes what's revealed to it rather than only
what makes sense to it.

According to Eph 4:11-14 the very reason that Christ endows some of his followers
to speak for him is so that the rest of his followers may have access to true
premises upon which to build their faith and thus achieve the unity for which he
prayed at John 17:20-21.

NOTE: Rom 16:17-18 contains somewhat universal instructions because, with a
little adjustment here and there, they can be incorporated as counseling for just
about every ideology known to man, e.g. Buddhism, Hinduism, Islam, Baha'i,
Protestant, Catholic, Democracy, Communism, Socialism, etc. It's kind of
humorous, in an ironic sort of way, that everybody's ideology warns its adherents
about the dangers of everybody else's ideology.

It ain't what you know that gets you into trouble.
It's what you know for sure that just ain't so.
-- Mark Twain --

UPDATE: 225 days have elapsed since my first comment. If the figures in post No.5
are in the ball park, then something like 13,977,900 new arrivals have checked into
the fiery sector of Hades since Oct 08, 2020.
_

 

[Sue D.]

@Beetow -- in other words, it's very important to get into God's Word on your own -- know doctrine -- then a person will recognize False teaching. Salvation is very simple -- People make it more complicated.

I'll type out the passage vs 17 Now I urge you, brethren, note those who cause divisions and offenses, contrary to the doctrine which you learned, and avoid them, vs 18 For those who are such do not serve our Lord Jesus Christ, but their own belly, and by smooth words and flattering speech deceive the hearts of the simple."

It's not idealogy -- it's Theology that a person needs to learn -- what God's Word teaches. When Scripture says in John 14:6 that "I am the Way, the truth and the life and that no man comes to the Father, but by Me." It's Jesus Christ talking.

It's not the ideas of other people that matters. It's knowing / believing God's Word that matters. No matter What church you're in -- listen to what the pastor is teaching --does it agree with God's Word? If not, After church -- ask him about it. He's responsible to God for what he's teaching. And, in turn, answerable to you -- the person he's supposed to be teaching God's Word to.

Actually -- with all those belief systems you brought up -- there are Major differences between them and God's Word --not just a few adjustments here and there.

And, actually, there's nothing humorous about it. It's eternity being talked about. Once we're in eternity, there's no turning back. No, "oops - I Should have listened -- let me out".

The Ephesians 4 passage -- talking about the various spiritual gifts the Holy spirit gives to people. Those particular people listed have the responsibility to lead us in ministry / edification of the body of Christ. We need doctrine -- to know Scripture so as to not be easily led away by other beliefs. We Are to be growing in the grace and knowledge of the Lord Jesus Christ.

The Holy Spirit gives those gifts to help the Church grow. The individual local church people to grow spiritually.

 

[Beetow]

And, actually, there's nothing humorous about it.

Too many Christians on the internet go about their business of enlightening
the world with a personality that was weaned on a dill pickle.
_

 

[Sue D.]

@Beetow -- Not quite sure How to respond to that comment. Let's see -- dill pickles are bitter as I recall. So --how would You go about enlightening the world about their need for salvation. And how to stay Out of the 'fiery sector of Hades'.

I sincerely hope that you don't end up being one of 'that' unfortunate number.

 

[Beetow]

Canadian folk singer Gordon Lightfoot released a sentimental song back in 1975
that speaks volumes about sympathy. Its lyrics are very touching. Here's a few that
I feel especially appropriate when talking about things like sickness, death, and the
hereafter.

Rainy day people always seem to know when it's time to call.
Rainy day people don't talk, they just listen till they've heard it all.
Rainy day lovers don't lie when they tell 'ya they've been down like you.
Rainy day people don't mind if you're cryin' a tear or two.

I sometimes wonder how much sympathy one can expect in the fiery netherworld. I
mean; sure they'll understand how we might feel about the unfortunate
circumstances in life that led us down there, but once you're there, everyone's
pretty much in the same boat and they're all longing for sympathy too.

In point of fact, I'd not be surprised if the competition for sympathy down there is
on the level of dog eat dog; and likely a fair number of sympathy hoarders
demanding total market share of it. I can just hear their feigned indignity; like this:

"Oh, stop whining already! Don't be such a baby. I deserve more sympathy than
you. I've been down here for two millennia and you've only been down here for a
decade. What've you got to cry about? You should be grateful that your time down
here will end up shorter than mine."

I'd imagine that after a few years in that place the only sympathy that people can
feel after a while is sympathy for themselves.

UPDATE: 226 days have elapsed since my first comment. If the figures in post No.5
are in the ball park, then something like 14,040,024 new arrivals have checked into
the fiery sector of Hades since Oct 08, 2020.
_

 

[JerryfromMass]

Canadian folk singer Gordon Lightfoot released a sentimental song back in 1975
that speaks volumes about sympathy. Its lyrics are very touching. Here's a few that
I feel especially appropriate when talking about things like sickness, death, and the
hereafter.

Rainy day people always seem to know when it's time to call.
Rainy day people don't talk, they just listen till they've heard it all.
Rainy day lovers don't lie when they tell 'ya they've been down like you.
Rainy day people don't mind if you're cryin' a tear or two.

I sometimes wonder how much sympathy one can expect in the fiery netherworld. I
mean; sure they'll understand how we might feel about the unfortunate
circumstances in life that led us down there, but once you're there, everyone's
pretty much in the same boat and they're all longing for sympathy too.

In point of fact, I'd not be surprised if the competition for sympathy down there is
on the level of dog eat dog; and likely a fair number of sympathy hoarders
demanding total market share of it. I can just hear their feigned indignity; like this:

"Oh, stop whining already! Don't be such a baby. I deserve more sympathy than
you. I've been down here for two millennia and you've only been down here for a
decade. What've you got to cry about? You should be grateful that your time down
here will end up shorter than mine."

I'd imagine that after a few years in that place the only sympathy that people can
feel after a while is sympathy for themselves.

UPDATE: 226 days have elapsed since my first comment. If the figures in post No.5
are in the ball park, then something like 14,040,024 new arrivals have checked into
the fiery sector of Hades since Oct 08, 2020.
_

Utter darkness. No touch. No sight. No love. Burning hot. Weeping and gnashing of teeth all the time.

 

[Sue D.]

@JerryfromMass --- my thoughts exactly.

 

[Brother-Paul]

The duration of a twinkle is roughly 1/10th second, i.e. ten twinkles per
second. Some twinkles are faster, but for now I'll work with the tenth.

At that rate, God would complete judging the 13,791,528 souls per post No.566 in
about 1,379,153 seconds, which is roughly equal to 22,986 minutes, or
383 hours, i.e. 16 calendar days.

Of course that's only for starters because the update in post No.566 doesn't take
into account the number of lost souls prior to Oct 08, 2020 and going all the way
back to Adam.

@Beetow

I totally agree with Sue,

Does the real number really matter?

It is beyond our comprehension, but not beyond the ability of God, to judge all lost souls in one twinkling of an eye.

In fact those who have not accepted the Lord before they die are condemned already John 3:18-21

It is the lost soul that will feel it is eternity at the White Throne Judgement, for God it will be over in a split second.

Surely the preaching of the lost souls judgement, is for the lost souls, not the saved souls. I do however appreciate there are lost souls in the forum.

In His love

Shalom

 

[Sue D.]

@Beetow -- your view / concept of hell / lake of fire and brimstone are not Biblical based. And, in fact, no one is in the lake of fire and brimstone, yet. Those who die with out Christ Now and in the past are in Hades/ hell / sheol -- whatever name a person chooses to give it. The part of Abraham's bosom that still has people in it -- suffering. Definitely suffering. The passage in Luke -- the rich man and Lazarus -- they both die -- the rich man being in torment -- pleads for even just a drop of water to quench his lips and begging 'someone' to warn his brothers who are living the same life-style that he Had been. He doesn't want Them to end up 'there' where he is. But he's being told that both he and they have the same warning that everyone else does.

The description we are given of the Future lake of fire and brimstone sounds far worse. As per what 'JerryfromMass' was describing.

And we Do need to realize that That horrible condition is only meant For the beast, false prophet and satan. Everyone Else has a way to stay out of there. And that it will last Forever. So Everyone needs to make their personal decision Now. Do we Really want to spend eternity in the total misery that is waiting for those three? And 'we' Can know Now that we won't. It's not a 'I hope so'.

 

[Beetow]

I totally agree with Sue

Well; there you have it; democracy in action. However, in the Bible, the majority is
usually always wrong; for example:

• Luke 13:22-24 . . And he went through the cities and villages, teaching, and
journeying toward Jerusalem. Then said one unto him, master, are there few that be
saved? And he said unto them: Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto
you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able.

• Matt 7:13-14 . . Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the
road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. But small is the gate and
narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.

• Matt 22:14 . . For many are called, but few are chosen.
_