many or few?

[JerryfromMass]

A woman was made from a man's body; but is it possible to reverse the process,
i.e. make a man from a woman's body?

From whence would come the necessary Y chromosome? I'm told that only biological
fathers can supply it.
_

You seem to have a very small view of the omnipotence of God. Mary conceived in her womb miraculously by the power of God. Do you doubt this?

 

[Garee]

With what denomination are you affiliated?

I would think the reformed no hierarchy of men .

 

[Beetow]

According to Gen 2:21-23, Eve was made from Adam's body. Thus she became
Adam's biological progeny.

The same process was done in reverse to make Jesus. His body, along with all the
necessary chromosomes and whatever else, was made from Mary's body, Thus Jesus
became Mary's biological progeny. I'm confident this process is possible because God
has done it once before with Adam and Eve.

But in order to satisfy the requirements of 2Sam 7:12, Ps 132:11, Acts 2;30, and
Rom 1:1-3, Jesus had to be not only Mary's biological progeny, but David's too.

This detail may seem trivial to Gentiles; but I assure you, based upon much
personal experience with Jews on other internet forums, David's role in Jesus'
human existence is extremely important to them.

Christ's genealogy, as given in the gospel of Luke, is sometimes appropriated to
establish Mary's biological kinship with David, but I don't recommend that route
because the language and grammar of Luke 3:23 are much too controversial.

Along with the language and grammar issue; there's a serious question about the
listings of Shealtiel and Zerubbabel. In Matthew's genealogy, the two men are
linked to David via Solomon. In Luke's genealogy, they're linked to David via
Solomon's brother Nathan.

Their respective descendants are different too. Zerubbabel's son is listed as Abihud
in Matthew's genealogy, whereas his son is listed as Rhesa in Luke's.

Thus far there exists no consensus among the experts how best to resolve the
difficulty caused by the presence of Shealtiel and Zerubbabel in both genealogies.
So then, I think we should consider Luke's data compromised, and avoid using it to
demonstrate that Jesus' mother was David's biological progeny.
_

 

[JerryfromMass]

I would think the reformed no hierarchy of men .

You're uncertain?

 

[JerryfromMass]

According to Gen 2:21-23, Eve was made from Adam's body. Thus she became
Adam's biological progeny.

The same process was done in reverse to make Jesus. His body, along with all the
necessary chromosomes and whatever else, was made from Mary's body, Thus Jesus
became Mary's biological progeny. I'm confident this process is possible because God
has done it once before with Adam and Eve.

But in order to satisfy the requirements of 2Sam 7:12, Ps 132:11, Acts 2;30, and
Rom 1:1-3, Jesus had to be not only Mary's biological progeny, but David's too.

This detail may seem trivial to Gentiles; but I assure you, based upon much
personal experience with Jews on other internet forums, David's role in Jesus'
human existence is extremely important to them.

Christ's genealogy, as given in the gospel of Luke, is sometimes appropriated to
establish Mary's biological kinship with David, but I don't recommend that route
because the language and grammar of Luke 3:23 are much too controversial.

Along with the language and grammar issue; there's a serious question about the
listings of Shealtiel and Zerubbabel. In Matthew's genealogy, the two men are
linked to David via Solomon. In Luke's genealogy, they're linked to David via
Solomon's brother Nathan.

Their respective descendants are different too. Zerubbabel's son is listed as Abihud
in Matthew's genealogy, whereas his son is listed as Rhesa in Luke's.

Thus far there exists no consensus among the experts how best to resolve the
difficulty caused by the presence of Shealtiel and Zerubbabel in both genealogies.
So then, I think we should consider Luke's data compromised, and avoid using it to
demonstrate that Jesus' mother was David's biological progeny.
_

It is error to rely on blinded Jews who reject Jesus as Messiah. Luke is totally theopneustos as much are all other scriptures. The one compromised is the one who tries to rewrite that which God has preserved. Go with God each and every time. God is Father, God is Son, God is Spirit. Mary was God's chosen vessel to carry the incarnate God into the world. Why do you strugle with this?

 

[Garee]

Jesus is a descendant of Adam and Abraham and David through Mary.
Jesus was conceived by the Holy Spirit, Mary was a virgin even after Jesus was born.

Luke 1:27; to a virgin engaged to a man whose name was Joseph, of the descendants of David; and the virgin's name was Mary.
Luke 1:34; Mary said to the angel, "How can this be, since I am a virgin?"
Luke 1:35; The angel answered and said to her, "The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you; and for that reason the holy Child shall be called the Son of God.

Matt 1:18; Now the birth of Jesus Christ was as follows: when His mother Mary had been betrothed to Joseph, before they came together she was found to be with child by the Holy Spirit.

Matt 1:23; "BEHOLD, THE VIRGIN SHALL BE WITH CHILD AND SHALL BEAR A SON, AND THEY SHALL CALL HIS NAME IMMANUEL," which translated means, "GOD WITH US."
Matt 1:24; And Joseph awoke from his sleep and did as the angel of the Lord commanded him, and took Mary as his wife,
Matt 1:25; but kept her a virgin until she gave birth to a Son; and he called His name Jesus.



This is false. The heirship can be passed on the mother side. In fact it was in a couple of cases.

Num 27:1 Then the daughters of Zelophehad, the son of Hepher, the son of Gilead, the son of Machir, the son of Manasseh, of the families of Manasseh the son of Joseph, came near; and these are the names of his daughters: Mahlah, Noah and Hoglah and Milcah and Tirzah.
Num 27:2 They stood before Moses and before Eleazar the priest and before the leaders and all the congregation, at the doorway of the tent of meeting, saying,
Num 27:3 "Our father died in the wilderness, yet he was not among the company of those who gathered themselves together against the LORD in the company of Korah; but he died in his own sin, and he had no sons.
Num 27:4 "Why should the name of our father be withdrawn from among his family because he had no son? Give us a possession among our father's brothers."
Num 27:5 So Moses brought their case before the LORD.
Num 27:6 Then the LORD spoke to Moses, saying,
Num 27:7 "The daughters of Zelophehad are right in their statements. You shall surely give them a hereditary possession among their father's brothers, and you shall transfer the inheritance of their father to them.
Num 27:8 "Further, you shall speak to the sons of Israel, saying, 'If a man dies and has no son, then you shall transfer his inheritance to his daughter.
Num 27:9 'If he has no daughter, then you shall give his inheritance to his brothers.
Num 27:10 'If he has no brothers, then you shall give his inheritance to his father's brothers.
Num 27:11 'If his father has no brothers, then you shall give his inheritance to his nearest relative in his own family, and he shall possess it; and it shall be a statutory ordinance to the sons of Israel, just as the LORD commanded Moses.'"

Heirship, a person is legally entitled to the property or rank of another on that person's death. It is not applied to Christ the eternal seed or spiritual seed .The genealogy of the fleshly seed ended at the birth of the Son of man, Jesus . It was not seeds as many pertaining to the flesh of Abraham but the born again seed of Christ who remains without descent.

Hebrews 7: 3 Without father, without mother, without descent, having neither beginning of days, nor end of life; but made like unto the Son of God; abideth a priest continually.

In that way sons of God. or called sons of Israel which we are, and as 1 John. . we are not what we will be when recieve the new body as His eternal bride.

We are not to be unevenly yoked with daughters of men (the unredeemed) .Flesh gives birth to flesh but the Holy Spirit gives birth to new incorruptible flesh, the Spirt of all living..that promise will be received on the last day under the sun.

The word virgin in most cases refers to widows as not married. . to Christ .Also called the fatherless (no heavenly father) which all believers were before they were born again of the incorruptible seed . . Christ

It would seem to represent the kind of religion or faith God approves . His salavtion working in us with us preaching His good news. It would seem he sends them out two by two.


James 1:27 Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world.


Mary is one of the many lively stones that make up the mother of us all

Galatians 4 26 But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all. For it is written, Rejoice, thou barren that bearest not; break forth and cry, thou that travailest not: for the desolate hath many more children than she which hath an husband.


The bride of Christ as the mother of us all is pictured in Revelation 12

Revelation 12 King James Version (KJV) And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars: And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered.


Paul is used as a example of a surrogate womb (Christianity) .it is show he is suffering travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered when Christ does the work of forming a new spirit in Timothy . Having completeled his work of briniging the gospel with Timothy .Paul as a suragte mother espouses Timoty as a chaste virgin bride a new creation


Galatians 4:19 My little children, of whom I travail in birth again until Christ be formed in you,


2 Corinthians 11:2 For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ.

 

[Sue D.]

@B-A-C -- regarding Mary , the mother of Jesus. She and Joseph came together after the birth of Jesus and had many other children. James is mentioned as one of Jesus' brothers.

Look at Mark 6:3

 

[B-A-C]

@B-A-C -- regarding Mary , the mother of Jesus. She and Joseph came together after the birth of Jesus and had many other children. James is mentioned as one of Jesus' brothers.

Yes, I'm not saying she stayed a perpetual virgin. I'm saying she was a virgin "until' Jesus was born. Not after.

 

[Sue D.]

@B-A-C -- thank you for clarifying that.

 

[Beetow]

Continued from posts No. 713, 715, 719, and 723,


The genealogy in Matthew positions Jesus as Joseph's son. However, it's very easy
to demonstrate that Mary's husband took no part in Jesus' conception. So then,
how did Jesus get into Joseph's genealogy? He got in via adoption; for example:

• Gen 48:5-6 . . Now, your two sons, who were born to you in the land of Egypt
before I came to you in Egypt, shall be mine; Ephraim and Manasseh shall be mine
no less than Reuben and Simeon. Progeny born to you after them shall be yours;
but they shall be recorded under the names of their brothers in their inheritance.

Jacob set a rather odd precedent by adopting his own two grandsons Manasseh and
Ephraim; thus installing them in tribal positions equal in rank, responsibility, and
privilege to his original sons; and increasing the total number of his legit sons from
twelve to fourteen.

Jacob's motive for adopting Manasseh and Ephraim was in sympathy for his beloved
Rachel being cut off during her child bearing years, which subsequently prevented
her from having any more children of her own.

• Gen 48:7 . . As I was returning from Paddan, to my sorrow Rachel died in the
land of Canaan while we were still on the way, a little distance from Ephrath. So I
buried her there beside the road to Ephrath (that is, Bethlehem).

Manasseh and Ephraim brought Rachel's grand total up to six, two boys of her own,
two by her maid Bilhah, and two by Joseph's wife Asenath.

Now, how do I know Joseph adopted Mary's infant son?

Not only Mary, but also Joseph, was instructed to name her baby.

• Matt 1:21 . . She will give birth to a son, and you are to give him the name Jesus

• Luke 1:31 . .You will be with child and give birth to a son, and you are to give
him the name Jesus.

Which they did.

• Luke 2:21 . .On the eighth day, when it was time to circumcise him, he was
named Jesus, the name the angel had given him before he had been conceived.

Back in their day, when a man stood with a woman to name her baby, he was
legally claiming the child to be his. So Jesus wasn't sneaked into Joseph's
genealogy, rather, he was positioned on the list fair and square; and from that day
onward, Joseph was known as Jesus' father/parent not only by the people, but by
Jesus' mom too

• Matt 13:55 . . Is not this the carpenter's son?

• Luke 2:27-28 . . When the parents brought in the child Jesus to do for him what
the custom of the Law required, Simeon took him in his arms and praised God,
saying . . .

• Luke 2:41 . . Every year his parents went to Jerusalem for the Feast of the
Passover.

• Luke 2:48 . . His mother said to him: Son, why have you treated us this way?
Behold, your father and I have been anxiously looking for you."

• Luke 4:22 . . And all were speaking well of him, and wondering at the gracious
words which were falling from his lips; and they were saying: Is this not Joseph's
son?
_

 

[Sue D.]

And both Mary and Joseph knew who their son, Jesus actually was. In other words, they knew their son was not simply another Jewish baby boy being born to raise.

 

[Garee]

You're uncertain?

Reformable . Hopefully ready to learn new truths as the mysteries unfold .

 

[JerryfromMass]

Reformable . Hopefully ready to learn new truths as the mysteries unfold .

New truths? God's word is all the truth you need. What new rruths are you hoping to learn?

 

[Beetow]

Continued from posts No. 713, 715, 719, 723, and 730.


• Luke 1:32 . . The Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David.

In order for Jesus to fully qualify for David's throne, he has to be David's
biological progeny, and God's oath per Ps 132:11 will not permit this requirement
to be waived.

"The Lord has sworn to David, a truth from which He will not turn back: Of the
fruit of your body I will set upon your throne."

Seeing as how Joseph played no role in Jesus' conception, then the biological path
to David defaults to Jesus' mother.

Attempts have been made to disqualify Jesus' mom by alleging that Luke 1:5 and
Luke 1:36 attest that she descends from the tribe of Levi rather than David's tribe
Judah. However, Levi and Judah were brothers, i.e. both men were Leah's sons
(Gen 29:34-35). So then Mary and Elizabeth were cousins due to their association
with the same grandma rather than with the same tribe.

A useful passage for explaining Mary's biological connect to David (aside from the
angel's announcement) is located at Luke 2:1-5. Mary was in her third trimester,
ready to pop, and thus in no condition to travel. Yet Joseph took her along with him
to Bethlehem.

Well; the Bible describes Joseph as a man of good character (Matt 1:19). So I'm
pretty sure in my own mind that he wouldn't have subjected his pregnant bride to a
road trip to Bethlehem lest he had to. In other words: Mary went with Joseph to
Bethlehem for the registration because she too was of the house and lineage of
David.

» Xmas cards and holiday art typically portray Joseph and Mary traveling alone with
she on the back of a donkey. But in her condition; it's far more likely Mary traveled
in the bed of a wagon, and also far more likely that not only Joseph's parents
traveled with them, but Mary's too 'cause they were all related to David in one way
or another.
_

 

[Garee]

And both Mary and Joseph knew who their son, Jesus actually was. In other words, they knew their son was not simply another Jewish baby boy being born to raise.

It would seem they learned no power is attributed to the flesh.

Romans1; 3-4 Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh; And declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead:


Holiness of the Spirit is never reconciled by the flesh .It is dead without the spirit


2 Corinthians 4:7 But we have this treasure in earthen vessels, that the excellency of the power may be of God, and not of us

 

[Garee]

New truths? God's word is all the truth you need. What new rruths are you hoping to learn?

The ones he teaches . mysteries made known .

 

[JerryfromMass]

The ones he teaches . mysteries made known .

Which mysyeries are you referring to?

 

[Sue D.]

Beetow -- why would Mary have traveled in a wagon? What was the normal means of travel in those days for a pregnant woman.

The Luke passage says that the first census was to be taken -- all the world should be registered -- vs 3, everyone went to be registered , everyone to his own city. vs 4 Joseph went from Galilee, out of the city of Nazareth , into Judea , to the city of David , which is called Bethlehem , because he was of the house and lineage of David. vs 5 to be registered with Mary, his betrothed wife, who was with child."

There's no mention of their means of transportation.

Was just Googling that -- the common forms of transportation were walking, donkeys, camals , horses, chariots, boats -- so Mary and Joseph would have been walking or Mary would have been on a donkey.

Attempts have been made since the 'beginning' to disqualify Jesus as the legitimate Savior. The Jews wanted King Jesus to come as their literal King. But God's plan was to present Jesus as a baby instead. As the God/ Man -- Jesus would grow up and experience life -- learning -- performing miracles -- being exposed to all the problems we endure , yet , without sinning. And He took our sins with Him on the cross, died and rose again In our place. When 'we' become a born again believer / new creature in Christ / we have the power through the Holy Spirit to say No to individual temptations . Being tempted isn't the sin -- Jesus Christ was tempted -- the sin is giving In to the temptation.

The Jewish people are Still waiting for their promised Messiah. His 2nd coming -- to them -- will be His 1st coming.

 

[Beetow]

Continued from posts No. 713, 715, 719, 723, 730, and 734


A common posit relative to Joseph's genealogy asserts that had Joseph fathered
Jesus, the curse pronounced upon King Jeconiah's posterity would've fallen upon
Jesus and prevented him from taking David's throne. It reads like this:

• Jer 22:29-30 . . O land, land, land, hear the word of the Lord! Thus said the Lord:
Record this man as without succession, one who shall never be found acceptable;
for no man of his offspring shall be accepted to sit on the throne of David and to
rule again in Judah.

Adopted children inherit from their fathers the same as biological children; so had
the curse extended to Joseph, it would have extended to Jesus too whether he was
naturally conceived or virgin conceived. In other words: seeing as how Jesus got
into Jeconiah's royal line by adoption, then of course he would've got into the curse
too because the throne and the curse would've been a package deal.

However; the wording "to rule again in Judah" indicates that the curse on
Jeconiah's royal progeny was limited to the era of the divided kingdom. That
condition came to an end when Nebuchadnezzar crushed the whole country and led
first Samaria, and then later Judah, off to Babylonian slavery.

When Messiah reigns, the country of Israel will be unified. His jurisdiction won't be
limited to Judah within a divided kingdom, but will dominate all the land of Israel.
So the curse doesn't apply to him.

• Ezek 37:21-22 . .You shall declare to them: Thus said the Lord God: I am going
to take the Israelite people from among the nations they have gone to, and gather
them from every quarter, and bring them to their own land. I will make them a
single nation in the land, on the hills of Israel, and one king shall be king of them
all. Never again shall they be two nations, and never again shall they be divided
into two kingdoms.
_

 

[JerryfromMass]

Continued from posts No. 713, 715, 719, 723, 730, and 734


A common posit relative to Joseph's genealogy asserts that had Joseph fathered
Jesus, the curse pronounced upon King Jeconiah's posterity would've fallen upon
Jesus and prevented him from taking David's throne. It reads like this:

• Jer 22:29-30 . . O land, land, land, hear the word of the Lord! Thus said the Lord:
Record this man as without succession, one who shall never be found acceptable;
for no man of his offspring shall be accepted to sit on the throne of David and to
rule again in Judah.

Adopted children inherit from their fathers the same as biological children; so had
the curse extended to Joseph, it would have extended to Jesus too whether he was
naturally conceived or virgin conceived. In other words: seeing as how Jesus got
into Jeconiah's royal line by adoption, then of course he would've got into the curse
too because the throne and the curse would've been a package deal.

However; the wording "to rule again in Judah" indicates that the curse on
Jeconiah's royal progeny was limited to the era of the divided kingdom. That
condition came to an end when Nebuchadnezzar crushed the whole country and led
first Samaria, and then later Judah, off to Babylonian slavery.

When Messiah reigns, the country of Israel will be unified. His jurisdiction won't be
limited to Judah within a divided kingdom, but will dominate all the land of Israel.
So the curse doesn't apply to him.

• Ezek 37:21-22 . .You shall declare to them: Thus said the Lord God: I am going
to take the Israelite people from among the nations they have gone to, and gather
them from every quarter, and bring them to their own land. I will make them a
single nation in the land, on the hills of Israel, and one king shall be king of them
all. Never again shall they be two nations, and never again shall they be divided
into two kingdoms.
_

Why is it you can't simply say God the Son left his rightful and eternal place in heaven to become human through a miraculous virgin birth? Instead you go on and on speculating and assuming facts not told, drawing your own conclusions, etc. Don't you believe that Jesus was fully God in the flesh?