Jesus_is_LORD
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I've heard some share that they find some major error in the Nicene Creed. What is the error?
Nicene Creed (Your thoughts)
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I've heard some share that they find some major error in the Nicene Creed. What is the error?
In the original Nicene creed of 325 A.D. there is no error but in the modified 381 A.D. Nicene creed, there is.
If I recall correctly, a web site and some Christian forums will put up scripture(s) for each line of that modified Nicene creed but not every scripture given is about that line nor proves that line as Biblical.
For the line about the Holy Spirit being the Giver of Life, they gave the reference of Genesis 1:2 but that reference doesn't support nor prove the Holy Spirit as being the Giver of Life. However, if you use some of the modern Bibles in how they wrongly capitalized spirit in John 6:63 & 2 Corinthians 3:6, then I would understand their error for believing that line in the Nicene creed, but.....
John 6:30-36 has Jesus testifying that He is the bread of life that gives life to the world and that by believing His words that by believing in Him is how we receive eternal life.
Can the credit be shared? No. Because the scriptures in John 6:63 & 2 Corinthians 3:6 is wrong to capitalize spirit when it is not about the Person of the Holy Spirit but a vital principle or a mental disposition.
And so it goes to which Bible verson is correct in scripture? John 5:39-40 testifies that scripture is to testify of Jesus and although inferring Old Testament in learning about Him before His incarnation, the same has to be true for the N.T.
We look at the role of the Holy Spirit and that is to testify of the Son thru us per John 15:26-27 to glorify the Son, per John 16:14 and so that is what the Holy Spirit would do in pointing us to as scripture points us to the Son for life.
Knowing that truth addresses the other errant line in the modified Nicene creed of worshiping the Holy Spirit with the Father & the Son and there are no scriptures for that. If I recall the reference, they listed Matthew 3:16-17 but it doesn't say anything about worshiping the Holy Spirit with the Father & the Son. In fact, there are no scripture testifying to that kind of practice at all.
What we do find in scripture is why there are no scripture for worshiping the Holy Ghost with the Father & the Son and it is a standard of judgment that is raised over every believer in John 5:22-23 and that is to honor the Father, we have to honor the Son and if we stop honoring the Son, then we are no longer honoring the Father. The Holy Spirit is not mentioned as another way to honor the Father by because the latter part of verse 23 limit that honoring of the Father only to the Son. Since the role of the Holy Ghost is to testify of the Son to glorify the Son thru us, that has to include worship and not just the ministry. God the Father is glorified thru His Son John 13:31-32 & that is the obedience Paul was talking about in having that mind of Christ when in worship per Philippians 2:5-13 with Philippians 1:6,11 as Who the God that is working in us.
So not only the reference they gave is not supporting that line nor proving that practice of worshiping the Holy Spirit with the Father & the Son, there are scriptures testifying why there are no scriptures for that and that is because of the Son.
John 14:6 brings about a whole new meaning as Jesus really is the only way to come to God the Father by in worship, fellowship, and prayer for why this is not just about salvation. Indeed, climbing up any other way can lead believers into following a stranger's voice, tongues for private use as it comes with no interpretation and thus following a stranger's voice per John 10:1-5 but in John 10:14-16 per verse 16, those that went astray will be made to hear His voice and be made of the one fold and one shepherd as they will be left behind to die for when their spirits will be with the Lord in Heaven, awaiting for their resurrection after the great tribulation as they will hear the King of kings literally on earth.
Those are the two major errors in the Nicene creed of 381 A.D. and if there be any other errors, I do not recall at this time but since it is ecumenical in nature as gathering grapes of thorns and figs of thistles, as they did broaden the way in the worship place to include the worship & focus on the Holy Spirit and not just with the Father & the Son, it should be no wonder why professing believers will cite wonderful works in His names ( Matthew 7:21-23 ) in what they believe are the visitations of the Holy Spirit bringing signs and lying wonders, where many houses fall due to lack of self control ( Matthew 7:24-27 ), which temperance is a fruit of the Spirit for why that confusion is not of God nor is God the author of it just because they did not heed His words of John 14:6 on how Jesus is the only way to come to God the Father by.
So to avoid that iniquity from being left behind per Luke 13:24-30, believers and churches in these latter days are to strive to enter through that straight gate, meaning narrow the way back to the Son in coming to God the Father by or else.
The Holy Spirit is God and One of the Three Witnesses within the Godhead, but the will of the Father is to come to Him by the only way provided and that is through His Son and that is Who scripture & the indwelling Holy Spirit points to for saved believers to continue to do so in living that reconciled relationship with God the Father through Jesus Christ, the Bridegroom. Keep your eyes on the Bridegroom for He will be coming soon for the abiding bride of Christ.
Jesus_is_LORD
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Thanks for the detailed response. So if I hear you correctly, the error is in stating that (1) the Holy Spirit is the giver of Life and (2) the worship of the Holy Spirit?
With that said (asking to learn, not to challenge), how would you respond to this point below in which someone explains why the Holy Spirit is the giver of life?
Giver of Life
The Spirit is the giver of life in a couple of different ways — one way is His involvement in creation. While the Apostles’ Creed associates the work of creating with the Father, this creed connects Jesus and the Holy Spirit to this work as well. The Spirit is the one who breathed life into the first humans, and the Spirit is the one who breathes new life into people dead in their sin. As Jesus tells Nicodemus in John 3, we must be born again, and this new birth comes from the work of the Holy Spirit (also see John 6:63 and 2 Corinthians 3:6). The Spirit is what ultimately causes us to experience the things we read about in the creed and were accomplished by Christ – the forgiveness of sins, the communion of saints, and life everlasting. The Spirit gives life and should guide our lives – we should live by the Spirit (Galatians 35:25).
Jesus_is_LORD
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In terms of worship, yellow part highlighted below, what would the danger of
including the Holy Spirit in worship?
Nicene Creed 381 A.D.
...........
...........
And I believe in the Holy Spirit, The Lord, and Giver of Life,
who proceeds from the Father and the Son,
who with the Father and the Son together is worshiped and glorified;
who spoke by the prophets.
...........
...........
Do you believe the Holy Spirit plays a role in worship?
For example, imagine a time when you have worshiped God, perhaps with music
in your quiet space. Was the Holy Spirit present in your worship?
Or is your point, not about if the Holy Spirit is present, but if the Holy Spirit is the object
of the worship?
As I'm reading, it reads that this worship is together, but you state that the Holy Spirit
is not a part of Christian worship?
including the Holy Spirit in worship?
Nicene Creed 381 A.D.
...........
...........
And I believe in the Holy Spirit, The Lord, and Giver of Life,
who proceeds from the Father and the Son,
who with the Father and the Son together is worshiped and glorified;
who spoke by the prophets.
...........
...........
Do you believe the Holy Spirit plays a role in worship?
For example, imagine a time when you have worshiped God, perhaps with music
in your quiet space. Was the Holy Spirit present in your worship?
Or is your point, not about if the Holy Spirit is present, but if the Holy Spirit is the object
of the worship?
As I'm reading, it reads that this worship is together, but you state that the Holy Spirit
is not a part of Christian worship?
Jesus_is_LORD
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Concerning worship, listen to just 5 minutes, starting at this time stamp, and let me know your thoughts on what this Pastor states.
Philippians 3:3 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
King James Bible
For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh.
New International Version
For it is we who are the circumcision, we who serve God by his Spirit, who boast in Christ Jesus, and who put no confidence in the flesh—
New Living Translation
For we who worship by the Spirit of God are the ones who are truly circumcised. We rely on what Christ Jesus has done for us. We put no confidence in human effort,
English Standard Version
For we are the circumcision, who worship by the Spirit of God and glory in Christ Jesus and put no confidence in the flesh—
Berean Study Bible
For it is we who are the circumcision, we who worship by the Spirit of God, who glory in Christ Jesus, and who put no confidence in the flesh—
Berean Literal Bible
For we are the circumcision, those worshiping in the Spirit of God, and glorying in Christ Jesus, and not trusting in the flesh--
John 4:24 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
King James Bible
God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.
New International Version
God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in the Spirit and in truth.”
New Living Translation
For God is Spirit, so those who worship him must worship in spirit and in truth.”
English Standard Version
God is spirit, and those who worship him must worship in spirit and truth.”
Berean Study Bible
God is Spirit, and His worshipers must worship Him in spirit and in truth.”
Berean Literal Bible
God is Spirit, and it behooves those worshiping Him to worship in spirit and truth."
New King James Version
God is Spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth.”
Philippians 3:3 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
King James Bible
For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh.
New International Version
For it is we who are the circumcision, we who serve God by his Spirit, who boast in Christ Jesus, and who put no confidence in the flesh—
New Living Translation
For we who worship by the Spirit of God are the ones who are truly circumcised. We rely on what Christ Jesus has done for us. We put no confidence in human effort,
English Standard Version
For we are the circumcision, who worship by the Spirit of God and glory in Christ Jesus and put no confidence in the flesh—
Berean Study Bible
For it is we who are the circumcision, we who worship by the Spirit of God, who glory in Christ Jesus, and who put no confidence in the flesh—
Berean Literal Bible
For we are the circumcision, those worshiping in the Spirit of God, and glorying in Christ Jesus, and not trusting in the flesh--
John 4:24 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
King James Bible
God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.
New International Version
God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in the Spirit and in truth.”
New Living Translation
For God is Spirit, so those who worship him must worship in spirit and in truth.”
English Standard Version
God is spirit, and those who worship him must worship in spirit and truth.”
Berean Study Bible
God is Spirit, and His worshipers must worship Him in spirit and in truth.”
Berean Literal Bible
God is Spirit, and it behooves those worshiping Him to worship in spirit and truth."
New King James Version
God is Spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth.”
Jesus_is_LORD
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So I don't understand what is wrong with the creed saying that the Holy Spirit is part of that worship when
Jesus clearly talks about the worship that He seeks must start in our Spirit. That would be where the Holy Spirit resides for the believer correct?
Jesus clearly talks about the worship that He seeks must start in our Spirit. That would be where the Holy Spirit resides for the believer correct?
The Father is not per se the Creator, but Jesus is the Creator. It is liken to the Word of God asking the Father and then when the Father gives permission, the Son does it with the agreement of the Father and of course the Holy Spirit in compliance. We can see that in action by how Jesus had asked the Father for permission to create man in our image and after our likeness and then in agreement, Jesus as the Word of God created man in His image and after His likeness.
Genesis 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.
If we read John 1st chapter, we find that Jesus as the Word of God is that Creator.
John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 The same was in the beginning with God.
3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.
10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.
11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.
12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
Okay now to the Holy Spirit's role.
When Christ was on earth, the Spirit spoke as the Spirit of the Father in Heaven, meaning all teh words of the Spirit's were from the Father and not His own words.
Matthew 10:19 But when they deliver you up, take no thought how or what ye shall speak: for it shall be given you in that same hour what ye shall speak.
20 For it is not ye that speak, but the Spirit of your Father which speaketh in you.
Now that Christ has ascended, the Holy Spirit serves as the Spirit of Christ relaying His words to us which are the words of the Father, but the point here is that the Spirit operates to glorify the Son as all power is given to the Son.
John 16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.
14 He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.
15 All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall shew it unto you.
Matthew 28:18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.
19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen.
So as the Holy Spirit serves as the Spirit of the Father and the Spirit of Christ, so was He serving as the Spirit of the Word of God and would defer all credit and glory to the Word of God in creation.
This explains when our Creator took the sins of the world upon Himself on the cross, the light of the sun and the full moon was gone for that dreadful 3 hours as He had experienced the separation from the Father.
He was scared and it is a scary thing to be separated from the Father for why I hope in Jesus Christ for abiding in Him & being willing to go when He comes as the Bridegroom and not be denied by Him because of an iniquity, even though He would still be in me and with me always when left behind. But I do not want to experience even that kind of separation from Him as I desire to be of the firstfruits where I will never sin against Him ever again.
I digress... sorry.
Anyway, the role of the Holy Spirit would lead me to give no credit nor glory to the Holy Spirit at creation when the Holy Spirit would defer that credit & glory to the Word of God as our Creator as creation told us that He is the Creator that has become our Redeemer on the cross and so would the Holy Spirit too as the Spirit of Christ in us.
So the Spirit gives the credit to Jesus as the Giver of Life and none to Himself as being the true Witness of the Son in seeking His glory and not His own glory and scripture as well as us as led by the Spirit should do the same.
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Note, the repeated verse is about God being omnipresence when it comes to worship in that He is not limited to the mountains of the Samaritans' nor the Temple at Jerusalem any more now that Jesus has come. Indeed one may ask how then can we come to God the Father in any place? By coming to the Son in honoring the Son in worship is how one comes to and honor the Father in worship any where. Once we are born again, our bodies become the temple of the Holy Spirit for why we can worship Jesus anywhere and by the Son, we glorify God the Father.
The problem here is that God the Father is not honored nor glorified by the address of the blessed Trinity.
God the Father is only honored by honoring the Son in glorifying the Son and by Him glorify God the Father.
John 5:22 For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son:
23 That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him. <----the latter part of this verse does not allow for the honoring of the Holy Spirit
John 13:31 Therefore, when he was gone out, Jesus said, Now is the Son of man glorified, and God is glorified in him.
32 If God be glorified in him, God shall also glorify him in himself, and shall straightway glorify him.
Philippians 2:5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.
9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:
10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;
11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.
13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.
It reads to me Paul was stressing this mind of Christ to have in obedience when in worship in his absence.
Those who worship God the Father must do so in spirit and in truth rather than out of the Holy Spirit and apart from the Truth when they believe the lie that they can receive the holy Spirit again at or apart from salvation by a sign.
I had thought that would be an added side bar note for the current apostasy in these latter days in how I would apply those verses to also mean.
How come this thread and the other one about Can one go to heaven if they have a demon in them upon Jesus' return? is not listed under recent new posts? I do not see the two threads down that list of new posts at all as it goes into yesterday. It is as if the forum does not acknowledge the existence of your two threads even though there have been recent posts to it?
Jesus_is_LORD
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My understanding is that all 3 were active in creator.
God says "Let us make"
In Genesis 1 we see the Spirit hovering over the waters of the deep,
and in John 1 we are told that all things were created through the WORD (Jesus) who was in the beginning.
So I see all 3 in creation.
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You are correct that he that honoureth now the Son does not honor God. But that does not mean that God is only honored through the Son.
This message was to the people who were rejected Jesus, and the message was, if they did not honor or accept Jesus, they were rejecting the Father.
This however is not to say that if they already knew and accepted Jesus, that acknowledging His Spirit in worship therefore was not honoring God.
It is tricky and very very subtle.
You stated "The problem here is that God the Father is not honored nor glorified by the address of the blessed Trinity."
are you speaking about when the Nicene Creed says that all 3 are involved in worship that is not glorifying the Father?
Is that what you mean?
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So why did Jesus come?
Jesus came to show us who God was. To give us a vivid and real demonstration of God.
Back then they had all these different gods, Greek gods, Roman gods, etc, etc.
And there could always be the argument that some make (and still make today), we are serving
the same God, just using a different name.
But in His coming, Jesus did away with that lie. Jesus came so we could actually see who God was and have
an anchor point to connect with when we pray to God. An anchor point who we saw how he acted
and from whom we received the WORDs of God Himself. Jesus also gives us an anchor point related to
the death and resurrection of Christ through which we could put our faith for Salvation.
Now as Jesus has left and ascended, we are still to connect to Jesus in faith, but now God comes to live
in us.
When Jesus walked the earth, people could pray with him face to face, and they did. They worshiped with Him
face to face. Now, His very spirit lives in believers and we worship in the Spirit. It is still Jesus through which
we are accessing God, because Jesus is our anchor point, He is the name we call on. He came to say, I'm the
way to the Father, and with His Spirit in us, we worship God the Father calling upon the name of Jesus as
our point of access.
Internet analogy-----------------
The Holy Spirit is like our internet router in our home ,
Jesus is the Modem from your ISP (Internet service provider) we connect to ,
and God the Father is our destination point on the internet (website) we are connecting to.
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Maybe if by the same author? Not sure.
I understand that point of view when it comes to Genesis 1:26, but not Genesis 1:27 & John 1st chapter where the Word of God has been singled out as the lead Creator of the Triune God.
Also, at His crucifixion when He had experienced that separation from the Father in that 3 hours of unexplained darkness when He took the sins of the world upon Himself, the light in creation as far as the light of the sun goes, it went out and with it the light of the full moon. Only the stars from the heavens were visible in according to secular reports from the men at sea at that time.
So Jesus being our Redeemer has to be our Creator and although by the permission of the Father & the compliance of the Holy Spirit, the Word of God did create everything by Him.
John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 The same was in the beginning with God.
3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.
10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.
11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.
12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
Creeds are creeds private interpretation or personal commentaries .Nothing more and nothing less
We are to call no man good teaching master a lord on earth . One is our Father the Holy Spirit in heaven . The Holy Spirit is not separate entity from the father . The witness of God is two The father and the Son of man Jesus.
The Elohim in Genesis .Let us" ( No queen)
Three or what some call a "trinity" was needed to continue the worship of the "queen of heaven" doctrine that began with the unbelieving Jew. (Jeremiah 44) There response to the word of God (sola scriptura , no creeds) is shown below . Choosing their creed as oral traditons of men above the word of God
(Jeremiah 44 :16) As for the word that thou hast spoken unto us in the name of the Lord, we will not hearken unto thee.
The purpose of creeds add to the word .take way its infallible witness (our father not seen)
The wives gathered themselves together (not called by God) and demanded "his and hers gods" some sort of equal rights rally and the husband gave them the thumbs up so they could keep their creed .
The same queen of heaven l(lying spirit) used in Catholicism with a different name . Name her after our sister in the Lord, Mary .
To be clearer, Jesus said the will of the Father was to only honor the Son Whom He has sent if any one wishes to honor the Father.
Can one honor the Father by only honoring the Father? No, because where is His glory? His glory is in His Son of Whom He is well pleased.
Jesus did not say we can honor the Father by also honoring the Holy Spirit or by honoring the blessed Trinity. This is why I pointed out the latter part of John 5:23 because it restrict how the Father wants to be honored since not honoring the Father is done by not honoring the Son.
I believe the metaphor we should be using is how Jesus Christ is the Bridegroom and we the church, each member of the body of believers, is the bride. Jesus Christ relates to us through the Holy Spirit in us, but our response is not back to the Holy Spirit or thru the Holy Spirit but to Christ Jesus Himself and then thru The Son & by the Son, to God the Father. I believe Jesus is called the Bridegroom for that purpose in how we are to relate to God the Father by as led by the Spirit in us to do as scripture testifies specifically to the same. The danger here is not recognizing the devil when he says "Did God really said that in John 14:6 & John 10:1 about Jesus being the only way to God the Father and did God really meant that in John 5:22-23 that the only way to honor the Father is by honoring the Son?" I would say "yes" to both.So why did Jesus come?
Jesus came to show us who God was. To give us a vivid and real demonstration of God.
Back then they had all these different gods, Greek gods, Roman gods, etc, etc.
And there could always be the argument that some make (and still make today), we are serving
the same God, just using a different name.
But in His coming, Jesus did away with that lie. Jesus came so we could actually see who God was and have
an anchor point to connect with when we pray to God. An anchor point who we saw how he acted
and from whom we received the WORDs of God Himself. Jesus also gives us an anchor point related to
the death and resurrection of Christ through which we could put our faith for Salvation.
Now as Jesus has left and ascended, we are still to connect to Jesus in faith, but now God comes to live
in us.
When Jesus walked the earth, people could pray with him face to face, and they did. They worshiped with Him
face to face. Now, His very spirit lives in believers and we worship in the Spirit. It is still Jesus through which
we are accessing God, because Jesus is our anchor point, He is the name we call on. He came to say, I'm the
way to the Father, and with His Spirit in us, we worship God the Father calling upon the name of Jesus as
our point of access.
Internet analogy-----------------
The Holy Spirit is like our internet router in our home ,
Jesus is the Modem from your ISP (Internet service provider) we connect to ,
and God the Father is our destination point on the internet (website) we are connecting to.
So we need to heed His words as it is written rather than go on men that expound on His words in giving a different message from what was plainly written.
Are any of your threads in Recent Posts? That would be telling, I reckon. If so, I do not know why those other 2 of yours are not.
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We are to do what God says to do. There is nothing in the Bible to say we are to make Creeds.
