once saved, always saved????

[jiggyfly]

I believe Jesus is talking about two types of branches here. The branches of the true eleven disciples of Christ(bears fruit) and the branches of Judas, a false disciple of Christ(does not bear fruit). I say that because Jesus was talking to His disciples. I also it's obvious that Judas was never a true believer to start with.

John 6:70-71
70 "Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil?
71 He spake of Judas Iscariot the son of Simon: for he it was that should betray him, being one of the twelve." KJV

Notice it says Judas is a devil. Judas was never a true believer and neither was the branches that didn't produce fruit.

So are you saying that those branches were not in Christ? That they were never connected to the Vine?

So is that just this part of the context that is pertaining to Jesus' 12 original disciples or is it consistant with the whole context?

Did Judas cast out devils?

 

[Chad]

I believe Jesus is talking about two types of branches here. The branches of the true eleven disciples of Christ(bears fruit) and the branches of Judas, a false disciple of Christ(does not bear fruit). I say that because Jesus was talking to His disciples. I also it's obvious that Judas was never a true believer to start with.

John 6:70-71
70 "Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil?
71 He spake of Judas Iscariot the son of Simon: for he it was that should betray him, being one of the twelve." KJV

Notice it says Judas is a devil. Judas was never a true believer and neither was the branches that didn't produce fruit.

Jesus did not mean Judas was a devil in the literal sense. That would be complete opposite of GOD's Creation, the creature Judas himself. There is only one devil, and Judas was merely following the devil, therefore "Satan entered into him". See, Jesus did not mean Judas to be a literal devil. The word devil means slanderer.

John 13:27
27And after the sop Satan entered into him. Then said Jesus unto him, That thou doest, do quickly.

 

[Cody]

Jesus did not mean Judas was a devil in the literal sense. That would be complete opposite of GOD's Creation, the creature Judas himself. There is only one devil, and Judas was merely following the devil, therefore "Satan entered into him". See, Jesus did not mean Judas to be a literal devil. The word devil means slanderer.

John 13:27
27And after the sop Satan entered into him. Then said Jesus unto him, That thou doest, do quickly.

You're right, Chad. Judas wasn't literally the devil himself, but it is simply saying that Judas wasn't a true Christian to begin with.

 

[jiggyfly]

You're right, Chad. Judas wasn't literally the devil himself, but it is simply saying that Judas wasn't a true Christian to begin with.

Where does it say that Cody? What scriptures are you basing this on?

 

[Cody]

John 6:70-71
70 "Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil?
71 He spake of Judas Iscariot the son of Simon: for he it was that should betray him, being one of the twelve." KJV

This is before Judas had betrayed Jesus. Jesus already knew that Judas wasn't a true believer. Same way now, God knows His true followers, the fruit bearers. Do you like debating me, Jiggyfly? lol:wink:

 

[jiggyfly]

John 6:70-71
70 "Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil?
71 He spake of Judas Iscariot the son of Simon: for he it was that should betray him, being one of the twelve." KJV

This is before Judas had betrayed Jesus. Jesus already knew that Judas wasn't a true believer. Same way now, God knows His true followers, the fruit bearers. Do you like debating me, Jiggyfly? lol:wink:

This does not prove that Judas was never a true believer, that is just your assumption.

Can you betray someone you were never loyal to?

Out of curiousity how do you explain these scriptures?
Mark 6:7-13
7*And he called unto him the twelve, and began to send them forth by two and two; and gave them power over unclean spirits; 8*and commanded them that they should take nothing for their journey, save a staff only; no scrip, no bread, no money in their purse: 9*but be shod with sandals; and not put on two coats. 10*And he said unto them, In what place soever ye enter into an house, there abide till ye depart from that place. 11 And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear you, when ye depart thence, shake off the dust under your feet for a testimony against them. Verily I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for Sodom and Gomorrha in the day of judgment, than for that city. 12*And they went out, and preached that men should repent. 13*And they cast out many devils, and anointed with oil many that were sick, and healed them.

Luke 10:17-20
17*And the seventy returned again with joy, saying, Lord, even the devils are subject unto us through thy name.
18*And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven. 19 Behold, I give unto you power to tread on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy: and nothing shall by any means hurt you. 20 Notwithstanding in this rejoice not, that the spirits are subject unto you; but rather rejoice, because your names are written in heaven.


It is apparent that Judas being one of the twelve and also one of the seventy that he too cast out devils and healed the sick.

Matthew 12:22-30
22* Then was brought unto him one possessed with a devil, blind, and dumb: and he healed him, insomuch that the blind and dumb both spake and saw. 23*And all the people were amazed, and said, Is not this the son of David?
24*But when the Pharisees heard it, they said, This fellow doth not cast out devils, but by Beelzebub the prince of the devils.
25*And Jesus knew their thoughts, and said unto them, Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation; and every city or house divided against itself shall not stand: 26*and if Satan cast out Satan, he is divided against himself; how shall then his kingdom stand? 27*And if I by Beelzebub cast out devils, by whom do your children cast them out? therefore they shall be your judges. 28*But if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come unto you. 29*Or else how can one enter into a strong man’s house, and spoil his goods, except he first bind the strong man? and then he will spoil his house. 30*He that is not with me is against me; and he that gathereth not with me scattereth abroad.


Please explain your interpretation of these scriptures.

I wouldn't say that I like debating with you, but I do enjoy studying and provoking others to study.

 

[Hisalone]

I will admit, I have not followed this thread entirely, but rather I have only skimmed over it.

I voted "no idea." This belief seems to stem from an extreme Calvinist position (which I have no real problem with.) I have been asked if I am a Calvinist or an Arminian and I really have no idea. I have looked at both sides of the issue, and there seems to be valid scriptural arguments to each. My real question to those who debate over it would be:

"Why must we be defined by how we believe, as long as our identity is in Christ Jesus alone?"

But I digress. I would say that I lean more towards the contrary side of this argument, and after skimming the thread, I see the Scriptural reasoning behind this has not yet been presented. Let us explore:

2Pe 2:20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.

2Pe 2:21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known [it], to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.

2Pe 2:22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog [is] turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.

Who is Peter talking about in this portion of Scripture. By taking a look at the context, it would seem to me the Peter is talking about those who were once believers having recieved righteousness, only to lose it. Read the whole chapter to get a clearer idea of them, but the following puts it in a much clearer context.

2Pe 2:1 ¶ But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that BOUGHT them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction. (emphasis mine)

We see from this that these became false prophets and teachers after having been paid for by the sacrifice of Jesus. It is obvious from the text that these have surely lost their salvation. However, some other passages mentioned previous can definitely challenge and provide a good argument to the contrary. That is why I vote "no idea."

Grace be unto you all.

Hisalone.

 

[tooth and nail]

Calvinist here, so I don't think salvation can be lost. From 2 Peter 2:20-22, the knowledge of the Lord and of the way of righteousness couldn't have been genuine in the first place - if a person is truly regenerated, the he/she is preserved in faith. In John 10 and Roman 8:28-39, no geniunely saved person can ever be lost.

 

[SpiritLedEd]

I believe that Judas was a true believer for awhile,but. he apparently never really matured in the faith (cf 1 Cor 3:1-2) and "the deceitfulness of riches" overtook him (cf Mk 4:18-19) and destroyed him.

SLE

 

[Cody]

John 6:70-71
70 "Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil?
71 He spake of Judas Iscariot the son of Simon: for he it was that should betray him, being one of the twelve." KJV

Notice scripture says that Judas "is a devil," not that he will become one. Judas was never a true believer. Jesus knew this from the very start.

 

[rizen1]

if from that verse we get that Judas is a devil.

What can we say about Peter,

Matthew 16:21-23

21From that time forth began Jesus to shew unto his disciples, how that he must go unto Jerusalem, and suffer many things of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised again the third day.

22Then Peter took him, and began to rebuke him, saying, Be it far from thee, Lord: this shall not be unto thee.

23But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men.

What was Peter's problem ?

1) he was not a true christian,

2) he became demon posses

3) him not being perfect was influence by the devil.

 

[Cody]

I'd say 3. We have said similar things in our life probably. An example is when we go through trials in life and we say, "I don't understand why I have to go through all of this trial and suffer." We need to understand that God has a perfect will and we must not question it.

Peter couldn't understand why Jesus had to suffer. He wanted Christ to rule in power, but that was not God's plan. Well, Christ was powerful, but God's plan was for Jesus to suffer for our sakes. Satan was using the words of Peter to tempt Jesus, so Jesus had to put a stop to it.

Look what satan also said to Christ in the wilderness. Satan was trying to get Christ to avoid the Cross. Notice verse 13, it says that the devil only departed him for a season. The devil will keep on trying to tempt Christ, but it won't work.

Luke 4:4-13
4 "And Jesus answered him, saying, It is written, That man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word of God.
5 And the devil, taking him up into an high mountain, shewed unto him all the kingdoms of the world in a moment of time.
6 And the devil said unto him, All this power will I give thee, and the glory of them: for that is delivered unto me; and to whomsoever I will I give it.
7 If thou therefore wilt worship me, all shall be thine.
8 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Get thee behind me, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.
9 And he brought him to Jerusalem, and set him on a pinnacle of the temple, and said unto him, If thou be the Son of God, cast thyself down from hence:
10 For it is written, He shall give his angels charge over thee, to keep thee:
11 And in their hands they shall bear thee up, lest at any time thou dash thy foot against a stone.
12 And Jesus answering said unto him, It is said, Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God.
13 And when the devil had ended all the temptation, he departed from him for a season." KJV

Now the question is, why did Judas go to Hell and why did Peter go to Heaven? There is something that is different between them. Peter was saved and Judas was not. Look in the verse before He says Judas is a devil.

John 6:66-69
66 "From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him.
67 Then said Jesus unto the twelve, Will ye also go away?
68 Then Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life.
69 And we believe and are sure that thou art that Christ, the Son of the living God." KJV

Look what Peter said in verses 68 and 69. Peter believed in Jesus and knew to believe in Him was to have eternal life. Then as you know Christ reveals the false believer before the disciples in the next verses.

So this explains it, Peter was a true believer and Judas was not. If Peter was not a true believer, Christ would of put him with Judas and said two of you are devils, but He did not.

Are you a true believer? Have you ever denied Christ? Don't get a big head, I believe everyone of us has denied Christ in a certain way. If you passed up a time to raise your hand and praise God in church, you've denied Christ. If you've had a gospel track in your hand and passed someone up on the sidewalk and the Spirit was telling you to witness to them, you've denied Christ. See we're all like Peter, none of us are perfect and Peter wasn't either. So lets make sure that we have what Peter had, Salvation. I hope this helped clear up the subject.

God Bless

 

[rizen1]

Now the question is, why did Judas go to Hell and why did Peter go to Heaven? There is something that is different between them. Peter was saved and Judas was not. Look in the verse before He says Judas is a devil

Judas killed himself, while peter lived and got to grow with Christ .
We cant say what would happen to Judas if he lived and repented.
He died so there's no comparision.


Unless there be scripture saying he went to hell.
I'll have to study this and get back to you.

 

[Cody]

John 17:12
"While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled." KJV

But the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled. What saith the scripture?

Perdition - complete loss; eternal damnation.

 

[rizen1]

I believe Jesus is talking about two types of branches here. The branches of the true eleven disciples of Christ(bears fruit) and the branches of Judas, a false disciple of Christ(does not bear fruit). I say that because Jesus was talking to His disciples. I also it's obvious that Judas was never a true believer to start with.

John 6:70-71
70 "Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil?
71 He spake of Judas Iscariot the son of Simon: for he it was that should betray him, being one of the twelve." KJV

Notice it says Judas is a devil. Judas was never a true believer and neither was the branches that didn't produce fruit.

if we go back to the branches, then look at

John 17:12
"While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled." KJV


Those who are not saved are they sons and daughters of perdition.

Why did you edit the meaning of the word

 

[Cody]

I got my first definitions from Dictionary.com, then I looked at the definitions in a KJV Companion and decided to use those definitions instead. Is that alright with you sister? lol

 

[rizen1]

Of course it is,, I like the first one lol
Cody you know I love troubling you...

Perdition
–noun 1. a state of final spiritual ruin; loss of the soul; damnation.
2. the future state of the wicked.
3. hell (def. 1).
4. utter destruction or ruin.
5. Obsolete

 

[Cody]

Lol yeah, you do. Love in Christ, sister.

Maybe one day people will believe God has the power to keep them to be revealed in the last time. I don't know about everyone else, but I'd say God is more powerful than me. Therefore, He can keep me saved.

Amen, Amen, Amen.

1 Peter 1:5
"Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time." KJV

 

[rizen1]

Amen Cody,
now come give your sis a hug:girl_hug:

luv yuh.

I'm out, you guys could proceed.lol

 

[spirit1st]

No one was SAVED [Born of GOD] until after our LORD died!

Salvation is of our spirit, Once Born again ? We never die! Death comes from sin.Sin destories everything it touches. That is why our flesh dies! It could not be saved . Nor can our spirit. HE gives us a newspirit. which is a new creature, NEW man, hidden man , inward man , inner man!

It has HIS mind and nature! .
The question should be ? Could JESUS CHRIST SIN? The answer of course is NO.
With HIS mind and nature we cannot either. of course this moind and nature is in our spirit!
Not in our flesh or outward thinking!

1Co 2:16 For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ.

2Pe 1:4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.

1Jn 4:17 Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as he is, so are we in this world.

Mat 10:25 It is enough for the disciple that he be as his master, and the servant as his lord. If they have called the master of the house Beelzebub, how much more shall they call them of his household?