OSAS

[A servant of the Kings]

A lot of teaching from Paul can be used to support an anti-OSAS view. But when anyone does this or argues that Paul is not saying what he is, it shows me that they do not understand the OSAS argument.

The OSAS argument is a discussion on God. Only He can search the depths of hearts and minds Jer 17:9-11. We are mostly fools that think we are saved when we are not. God is not a fool that grafts a demon into heaven or casts a saint out.

When you understand what it takes to become a Christian, you will understand that God would never cast a saint out What is a Christian and how do you become one?.

Now, what an anti-OSAS supporter needs to understand is the fact that they are incriminating God. Making God out to be evil and unjust. We know from Job in Job 34:12 that it is unthinkable that God would do what is evil or pervert justice. The following example is what anti-OSAS supporters need to explain:

- Christian A serves God by witnessing to prostitutes for 40 years, in year 41 he falls into mortal sin and .....God sends him to an ''ETERNAL'' lake of fire.

- Christian B does not really serve God, but repents and talks to Jesus on the cross for 4 hours.....God sends him off to eternal bliss.

How is this not a perversion of justice by God?

Something that I find very interesting on this topic is how someone justifies their belief.

It is possible for an anti-OSAS believer to validly be upset with an OSAS believer if an OSAS believer arrives at their belief in a heretical manner.

If you arrive at an OSAS belief by believing in absolute grace or Calvinism, your belief is evil. If you are one who continues in venial sin unrepentant, you are not saved. If you are one who commits mortal sins, you are not saved.

Anyone who believes OSAS is a license to continue in sin, is likely not saved and needs to heed all Paul's warnings. Example in 1 Cor 10:12If you think you are standing firm you had better be careful that you do not fall.

OSAS is a discussion on God. Not on mankind. Mankind cannot judge hearts and minds as God can Jer 17:9-11. That is why Paul has a million warnings to us.

God is not a fool that grafts a demon into heaven. We are fools that can think we are saved.

I will testify about some of what Jesus has taught me on the subject.

It is that baptism is a pact made in heaven, and is thus eternal, since there is no time in heaven.
Gods promise is thus eternal, He will not go back on His word.

Humans however may go back on theirs

They may say that they want to rid themselves of the old man full of sin, but may not mean it
God will of course know that in advance

They may say they believe in Jesus, that they want to keep His commandments but may not mean it

Jesus has told me that all who has chosen to walk the way that He is, that leads to our Father in heaven
have a chance, it is expected that people will stumble and make a little detour, since we are not perfect.

But all who turns away from that way that He is, and walk in another direction will not arrive at the goal,
the way that they walk does not lead to our Father in heaven.

We must continue to kill the old man, it is the same as repentance to remission of sin, we must continue
to aim for it. When He knows we love Him and want to reach Him Who is pure He will show mercy.

But those who choose satan and walk decidedly in that direction, He is sad for them.

They do not know what they are doing.

 

[Dave M]

How is this not a perversion of justice by God?

2
God is not a Just God,

 

[KingJ]

2
God is not a Just God,

Are you being serious?

 

[Dave M]

Are you being serious?

Yes absolutley do you think God is a just God???

 

[KingJ]

Yes absolutley do you think God is a just God???

Deut 32:4, 1 Kings 3:28, Job 34:12, Job 37:23, Psalm 51:4, Psalm 89:14, Psalm 98:8-9, Psalm 140:12, Isa 5:16, Isa 9:7, Isa 30:18, 2 Chron 19:7 I can list another 50 if you want.

Please explain with scripture the point you are alluding to. Right now your one liner is 100% heretical.

 

[Dave M]

MY friend if God was a just God he would not of sent his son to pay the price for mine and your sin, God is a merciful, gracious forgiving, loving God. Who sacrificed his son in my place and your place

NO if God was a just God we all would be going to hell..

 

[KingJ]

MY friend if God was a just God he would not of sent his son to pay the price for mine and your sin, God is a merciful, gracious forgiving, loving God. Who sacrificed his son in my place and your place

Jesus is God the son Isa 9:6.

Going to the cross was an act of love God did for us. It has nothing to do with justice.

God created mankind with the purpose of us being family in His household. For this a blood covenant was planned.

A union based on love John 15:13 exists between mankind and God.

NO if God was a just God we all would be going to hell..

Sending all people to an eternal hell, when you clearly have many who repent of their sins and hate what is evil would not be just, no.

Imagine sending a child who stole candy from the candy store to an eternal prison called the lake of fire.

If you think that is just, I think you are mad. Paul rebuked Christians who could not judge matters better then the unsaved 1 Cor 6:1-9.

 

[Dave M]

Jesus is God the son Isa 9:6.

Going to the cross was an act of love God did for us. It has nothing to do with justice.

God created mankind with the purpose of us being family in His household. For this a blood covenant was planned.

A union based on love John 15:13 exists between mankind and God.



Sending all people to an eternal hell, when you clearly have many who repent of their sins and hate what is evil would not be just, no.

Imagine sending a child who stole candy from the candy store to an eternal prison called the lake of fire.

If you think that is just, I think you are mad. Paul rebuked Christians who could not judge matters better then the unsaved 1 Cor 6:1-9.

one of us is clearly blind, that is for sure

 

[KingJ]

one of us is clearly blind, that is for sure

Out of all the people in the world, I can think of 15 people that may agree with you.

15 Of The Most Evil Men The World Has Ever Seen - ScoopWhoop

Wondering who are the most evil people in the history of the world? It’s not just Hitler but many other notorious men in the history who did unimaginable crimes against humanity!

www.scoopwhoop.com

 

[Dave M]

I guess it comes down to your thinking on what justice is, because its wrong, if you commit the crime you do the time, With GOd we commit the crime repent and are forgiven, we get grace not justice, now for those who do not repent they get justice, hope that clears things up maybe??

 

[KingJ]

I guess it comes down to your thinking on what justice is, because its wrong, if you commit the crime you do the time,

Dave, you need to understand that people go to hell because they are sold out to a love of what is evil. Hell is a home for those that will never truthfully desire repentance.

In every instance in scripture, evil people were only removed by God when their evil was 'full measure'.

The sins of Sodom were grievous Gen 18:20. The Amorites were spared for a while because their sin was not yet full measure Gen 15:16. Exo 7 explains how Pharaoh's heart was hardened and he drowned only after his eleventh act of defiance to God. I can give many more examples.

With God we commit the crime repent and are forgiven, we get grace not justice, now for those who do not repent they get justice, hope that clears things up maybe??

It is just to forgive a repentant sinner though? How are you missing that? Please read the OP in this thread What is a Christian and how do you become one?.

It is also just to punish an unrepentant sinner.

________________

If I could grasp the depths of a persons heart and mind as God can per Jer 17:9-11, I too would not hold a crime against someone who has truthfully repented of it.

Would you?

 

[Dave M]

last try, let say you go before a legal judge for killing someone, and you are guilty but plead the case you are truly sorry that judge will judge you on your guilt and you will be punished he gives you NO grace even thought you are sorry, peace in Christ thank you Lord GOd for not being just and not giving me what I deserve

 

[Charlie24]

MY friend if God was a just God he would not of sent his son to pay the price for mine and your sin, God is a merciful, gracious forgiving, loving God. Who sacrificed his son in my place and your place

NO if God was a just God we all would be going to hell..

Well said, Dave!

 

[Charlie24]

I think that verse goes with the verse that follows it, and we need both to fully understand.

Hebrews 3:14-15
14 For we have become partners with Christ, if in fact we hold our initial confidence firm until the end. 15 As it says, “Oh, that today you would listen as he speaks! Do not harden your hearts as in the rebellion.”

Verse 15 speaks of those who hear, but do not receive. They rebel and harden their hearts against the truth. In verse 14, the believer, who did not rebel in such a way, has the "initial confidence" (or, in Greek, 'the beginning of confidence'). Verse 15 in the Greek actually begins with 'while it is said' and some translations do not place a period at the end of 14 (in Koine Greek there were no verse numbers or punctuation). And what is bolded in v15 above is actually quoted from Ps 95:7-8.

So in Verse 14 we see that the believer is held to the confidence that he was first given....until the end. He won't lose it. Why?

1 Corinthians 6:19-20
19 Or do you not know that your body is the temple of the Holy Spirit who is in you, whom you have from God, and you are not your own? 20 For you were bought at a price. Therefore glorify God with your body.

You are not your own. You belong to God now. You were bought with a price.

John 10:28-30
28 I give them eternal life, and they will never perish; no one will snatch them from my hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one can snatch them from my Father’s hand. 30 The Father and I are one.”

So do you think that you are special, that you can snatch yourself away from God. Nobody else can. The Father and Jesus have you and nobody, not even youself, can take them from God's hand.

Do you think that God will call you, then when you accept the call, justify you, regenerate you and send the Holy Spirit to indwell in you and begin the process of sanctification, if he knows (and he is omniscient, is he not?) that you will one day renounce your faith, become unsaved?

How does he keep you? Well, besides being in his hand, his, not your own, there is the Holy Spirit:

Ephesians 4:30
And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.

You are sealed with the Holy Spirit, from the time you are saved until Jesus returns to redeem you. Do you think you can break God's seal? Do you think God is incapable of keeping his Word in this?

So point me to a verse that specifically speaks of how one unregenerates. Or how God unjustifies you, taking away the imputation of righteousness that Jesus robed you with.

No, salvation is not ours to give to ourselves (we can't save ourselves); nor is it something that we can take away from ourselves (we can't unsave ourselves). God, and God alone, deals in salvation.

Why does Paul use the word "IF?" We are made partakers "IF."

That is a condition to be met in order to reap the benefits.

It means what it says. Some will not accept it, nothing I can do about that.

 

[ABlessedMan]

Heb 6:4-6 does not come close to debunking OSAS if properly understood. A Christian is not one who merely ''''tastes / has been enlightened / shares in / experiences'''. The fallen angels were enlightened, tasted and shared in the experiences of God's presence too. Everyone that goes to an anointed meeting at church can experience the Holy Spirit. Does mean they are saved. Just close to being inoculated against the truth. As those who would trample Jesus underfoot Heb 10:29.

Were the fallen angels "saved"? Scripture doesn't speak to this, but if they did not disobey and "stayed in their lane" worshipping God -- would they remain in heaven for eternity? Do the angels who did not rebel have to "accept Christ" at any point? Again, scripture does not tell us. Jesus died and rose for the sinner -- to pay for and wash away the sin -- but the pre-fallen angels were not with sin (in the very least they are not descended from Adam).

Yes, I do agree that Heb 6 does not stand in the way of understanding OSAS; it certainly is not a testimony to a fall from grace.

 

[ABlessedMan]

This verse totally and completely refutes OSAS.

Contrary to popular belief, one can stop believing through the circumstances of life.

So you think the circumstances of life are stonger and greater than God himself??

John 10:28-30
28 I give them eternal life, and they will never perish; no one will snatch them from my hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one can snatch them from my Father’s hand. 30 The Father and I are one.”

God says he won't lose you.

 

[ABlessedMan]

I have no idea what you are talking about, why you think I believe Jesus name is "Who", and why you do not understand why I mentioned timelessness in relation to your thoughts?

So if you want me to reply you need to explain so that I at least get an idea about what you mean

Because the odd English you wrote said as much:

"So Who is with Father has always been with Father, and will always be, God willing."

To capitalize it here says as much. And your sentence is not a question, but rather is phrased as a declarative statement. If you are simply speaking of Jesus, then the final phrase is not a Christian phrase: "and will always be [with the Father], God willing." The Father is God. Jesus is God. The Holy Spirit is God. God is three persons in One. So God can not "not be willing" that Jesus remain always. Jesus is God.

In trying to understand what you say to me, how you respond to my posts, and the points that you make to refute them, I see a number of things (that I have pointed out already) that are not the type of speech that one would use in the Christian Church. Now, while there are many denominations, there is a core belief system that we all agree makes up a Christian and what separates one to a cult. The Trinity is a core belief of all Christian denominations. So when you speak in a manner that assumes that Jesus can be separated from the Godhead, then you speak heresy. I don' t know that you mean to do this. Perhaps English is not your primary language. Perhaps it is?

So I'm simply pointing these things out, and in so asking for your clarification if I am wrong.

 

[ABlessedMan]

Before I give a example if a man falls back into practicing sin after 40 year I would wonder if he knew Jesus at all, I am just not sure that would happen to a true believer as we grow in CHrist we become stronger not weaker

And another point is if we stumble in sin we do have a advocate that we can go to for forgiveness and repentance, so just because you sinned again does not mean you would go to hell

Hmm. We grow in knowledge, but we do not grow to the extent that we won't sin. Paul covered this in Romans 7. We will always have a carnal man within us who will sin until we are redeemed and changed. We are still capable of stumbling.

But, what you are saying goes hand in hand with one of my favorite verses:

1 John 3:9
Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God.

Is the new Christian (born of God) unable to commit a sin? But yet scripture tells us that if we are born of God, then we "cannot sin."

This is the juxtapostion between being a sinner and committing a sin. What is your take on 1 John 3? (And feel free to throw in 1 John 1:8-10 to make the stew taste good.)

 

[ABlessedMan]

You say we will still have the choice to sin in heaven, because if we didn't have that choice, it would make us robotic slaves with no free will.
But then you say once saved always saved, because we have no free will in the matter to choose to get unsaved.

Who are you responding to?

 

[ABlessedMan]

Oh, but yes he did! Calvin taught that God chooses who will be saved (predestination) and man has no choice in the matter.

The conclusion is that you can't lose that salvation because He chose you, you didn't choose Him. You had no choice.

Again I must prestate: I am not a Calvinist, so my reply here does not denote my personal beliefs or support....

Calvin's teachings were a bit more nuanced and complicated than that. Calvin, like Augustine before him had a concept that since God is omniscient, and can see all things in the future as if they already happened, he also can take into account the life of a man. So when one says that Cavin believed that God pre-chose heaven or hell for an individual, that is placing God in time -- as if God made that choice BEFORE something else. God knows all. And God is perfect. So his choice is perfect and whom he chose for salvation, were truly saved and died saved. Not that the resultant choice of God was based upon the works or life of man, so the paradox continues.

The concept in Calvinism of Perseverance of the Saints (OSAS) is simply that the saved are secure in Christ and God will not lose them. He can't. And he knows start from finish, so he already knows they will not "retreat out of salvation" or in any way "get unsaved." Again nuances and paradoxes.