Praying to God

[Mayflower]

@JerryfromMass
@Rhema

I thought this would be a great discussion. I would love for us to explore this some. Jerry and Rhema were talking about prayer and how to pray. So thoughts and scriptures. Do you pray only to the Father? Do you address Jesus and Holy Spirit in prayer also, or the Father in Jesus Name alone.

My view is that I mainly pray to the Father in Jesus Name, but I will have interjections. Where I am praising Jesus directly and asking Him things directly, and Holy Spirit, praising and directing prayer to Him. I'll pray in tongues also. I believe in the Holy Trinity. God is not dead, He is surely alive, so I praise Him in all ways and in all regards. It is okay to ask any part of the God head for anything in prayer, because Holy Spirit is Spirit of God, and and Jesus is God's son and God in bodily form. While I mainly read and add scripture and thoughts here and there, I will start off with the prayer Jesus taught the disciples.

“When you pray, don’t be like the hypocrites who love to pray publicly on street corners and in the synagogues where everyone can see them. I tell you the truth, that is all the reward they will ever get. But when you pray, go away by yourself, shut the door behind you, and pray to your Father in private. Then your Father, who sees everything, will reward you. “When you pray, don’t babble on and on as the Gentiles do. They think their prayers are answered merely by repeating their words again and again. Don’t be like them, for your Father knows exactly what you need even before you ask him! Pray like this: Our Father in heaven, may your name be kept holy. May your Kingdom come soon. May your will be done on earth, as it is in heaven. and forgive us our sins, as we have forgiven those who sin against us. And don’t let us yield to temptation, but rescue us from the evil one. “If you forgive those who sin against you, your heavenly Father will forgive you. But if you refuse to forgive others, your Father will not forgive your sins.
Matthew 6:5‭-‬10‭, ‬12‭-‬15 NLT

https://bible.com/bible/116/mat.6.5-15.NLT

 

[JerryfromMass]

@JerryfromMass
@Rhema

I thought this would be a great discussion. I would love for us to explore this some. Jerry and Rhema were talking about prayer and how to pray. So thoughts and scriptures. Do you pray only to the Father? Do you address Jesus and Holy Spirit in prayer also, or the Father in Jesus Name alone.

My view is that I mainly pray to the Father in Jesus Name, but I will have interjections. Where I am praising Jesus directly and asking Him things directly, and Holy Spirit, praising and directing prayer to Him. I'll pray in tongues also. I believe in the Holy Trinity. God is not dead, He is surely alive, so I praise Him in all ways and in all regards. It is okay to ask any part of the God head for anything in prayer, because Holy Spirit is Spirit of God, and and Jesus is God's son and God in bodily form. While I mainly read and add scripture and thoughts here and there, I will start off with the prayer Jesus taught the disciples.

“When you pray, don’t be like the hypocrites who love to pray publicly on street corners and in the synagogues where everyone can see them. I tell you the truth, that is all the reward they will ever get. But when you pray, go away by yourself, shut the door behind you, and pray to your Father in private. Then your Father, who sees everything, will reward you. “When you pray, don’t babble on and on as the Gentiles do. They think their prayers are answered merely by repeating their words again and again. Don’t be like them, for your Father knows exactly what you need even before you ask him! Pray like this: Our Father in heaven, may your name be kept holy. May your Kingdom come soon. May your will be done on earth, as it is in heaven. and forgive us our sins, as we have forgiven those who sin against us. And don’t let us yield to temptation, but rescue us from the evil one. “If you forgive those who sin against you, your heavenly Father will forgive you. But if you refuse to forgive others, your Father will not forgive your sins.
Matthew 6:5‭-‬10‭, ‬12‭-‬15 NLT

https://bible.com/bible/116/mat.6.5-15.NLT

When I pray, I pray always to the Father Son and Holy Spirit, for the three are One God.

 

[Waggles]

I'll pray in tongues also.

Praying in tongues, praying in the Holy Spirit, is best and powerful
I pray to my father in Heaven and to Jesus my Lord and my God by the Holy Spirit.
I can pray for ten minutes or I can pray for 30 minutes - it just flows ...

 

[Rhema]

I thought this would be a great discussion.

Thank you Mayflower for starting a thread to keep the discussions from getting all muddled up. Chaos, Combative Rhetoric, and Personality Conflicts are most certainly an attempt to avoid discussing the OP topic and at times are even meant to purposefully distract others from core truths being presented.

For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. But if ye bite and devour one another, take heed that ye be not consumed one of another.​

(Galatians 5:14-15 KJV)​

But when you pray, go away by yourself, shut the door behind you, and pray to your Father in private.

This is a wonderful passage in Mat. 6 showing where Jesus commands us to pray to your Father. And as I mentioned before, both in this verse and in verse nine, the verb "pray" is written in the imperative mood, to be seen instantly as a command. When Jesus was asked this question....

Lord, teach us to pray, as John also taught his disciples.​

(Luke 11:1 KJV)​

The manner in which the disciples were accustomed to pray (as Jews) must have obviously been different from how they saw Jesus pray. (Else why ask?)

And it came to pass, that, as he was praying in a certain place, when he ceased, one of his disciples said unto him, Lord, teach us to pray, as John also taught his disciples. And he said unto them, When ye pray, say, Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done, as in heaven, so in earth. Give us day by day our daily bread. And forgive us our sins; for we also forgive every one that is indebted to us. And lead us not into temptation; but deliver us from evil.​

(Luke 11:1-4 KJV)​

My view is that I mainly pray to the Father in Jesus Name, but I will have interjections.

Well my view is that God is a gracious and loving Father, who puts up with a crap-load of nonsense from his children (don't all parents ??), and yet would still like his commands to be followed.

If ye love me, keep my commandments.​

(John 14:15 KJV)​

​

He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.​

(John 14:21 KJV)​

​

If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.​

(John 15:10 KJV)​

​

And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.​

(1 John 2:3 KJV)​

​

He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.​

(1 John 2:4-5 KJV)​

And while the book of Revelation is not in our canon, we can still read the following -

And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.​

(Revelation 12:17 KJV)​

​

Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.​

(Revelation 14:12 KJV)​

​

Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.​

(Revelation 22:14 KJV)​

I should clarify, though, that by "his commandments" I mean those directly given through the mouth of Jesus - the Gospel that Jesus preached. (Sometimes when one reads the word "commandments" it could mean all sorts of things.)

For me, I see Jesus' direct commandments about prayer teaching that we should indeed pray to the Father. The verb προσεύχομαι (G4336 - to pray) occurs 87 times in the New Testament, and I see no verse anywhere that states a prayer was ever made to the Holy Spirit or to Jesus. The language always says "Father" or "God" or "Lord" (but never "Lord Jesus"). And since we know that 'prayer' is an asking, let me go look at the verb αἰτέω (G154 - to ask) which occurs 71 times in the New Testament. There are four direct times in the Synoptics where we are instructed to ask the Father. Other times, is just says 'ask' without overtly stating to whom. John is the more interesting gospel -

Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.​

(John 15:16 KJV)​

​

And in that day ye shall ask me nothing. Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall ask the Father in my name, he will give it you.​

(John 16:23 KJV)​

Especially this verse:

At that day ye shall ask in my name: and I say not unto you, that I will pray the Father for you:​

(John 16:26 KJV)​

I might need to post about that later on... Jesus said he would NOT pray the Father for you. It's a rather odd statement.

As for the rest, there's no instance in Acts or the epistles where one is to ask either Jesus or the Holy Spirit, though James does say that we are to ask God (cf. Jas 1:5).

I'll pray in tongues also.

Do you consider tongues to be praying in the Spirit or praying with the Spirit ? (Just asking to clear up some definitions, thanks.)

It is okay to ask any part of the God head for anything in prayer, because Holy Spirit is Spirit of God, and and Jesus is God's son and God in bodily form.

But wouldn't it be better to follow the commandments of Jesus as given?

I'm not condemning anyone who may have been taught differently, but all in all, I have to go with what I read, as I'm a bit reluctant to go beyond that which is written.

Thanks kindly,
Rhema

 

[Waggles]

Jesus is the mediator - the door - to our Father in Heaven
Ephesians 2:17 And [Jesus] came and preached peace to you who were far off and peace to those who were near; 18 for through him we both have access in one Spirit to the Father.

Romans 8:9 But you are not in the flesh, you are in the Spirit, if in fact the Spirit of God dwells in you. Any one who does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to him. 10 But if Christ is in you,
although your bodies are dead because of sin, your spirits are alive because of righteousness.

 

[Mayflower]

Thank you Mayflower for starting a thread to keep the discussions from getting all muddled up. Chaos, Combative Rhetoric, and Personality Conflicts are most certainly an attempt to avoid discussing the OP topic and at times are even meant to purposefully distract others from core truths being presented.

For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. But if ye bite and devour one another, take heed that ye be not consumed one of another.​

(Galatians 5:14-15 KJV)​

This is a wonderful passage in Mat. 6 showing where Jesus commands us to pray to your Father. And as I mentioned before, both in this verse and in verse nine, the verb "pray" is written in the imperative mood, to be seen instantly as a command. When Jesus was asked this question....

Lord, teach us to pray, as John also taught his disciples.​

(Luke 11:1 KJV)​

The manner in which the disciples were accustomed to pray (as Jews) must have obviously been different from how they saw Jesus pray. (Else why ask?)

And it came to pass, that, as he was praying in a certain place, when he ceased, one of his disciples said unto him, Lord, teach us to pray, as John also taught his disciples. And he said unto them, When ye pray, say, Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done, as in heaven, so in earth. Give us day by day our daily bread. And forgive us our sins; for we also forgive every one that is indebted to us. And lead us not into temptation; but deliver us from evil.​

(Luke 11:1-4 KJV)​

Well my view is that God is a gracious and loving Father, who puts up with a crap-load of nonsense from his children (don't all parents ??), and yet would still like his commands to be followed.

If ye love me, keep my commandments.​

(John 14:15 KJV)​

​

He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.​

(John 14:21 KJV)​

​

If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.​

(John 15:10 KJV)​

​

And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.​

(1 John 2:3 KJV)​

​

He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.​

(1 John 2:4-5 KJV)​

And while the book of Revelation is not in our canon, we can still read the following -

And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.​

(Revelation 12:17 KJV)​

​

Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.​

(Revelation 14:12 KJV)​

​

Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.​

(Revelation 22:14 KJV)​

I should clarify, though, that by "his commandments" I mean those directly given through the mouth of Jesus - the Gospel that Jesus preached. (Sometimes when one reads the word "commandments" it could mean all sorts of things.)

For me, I see Jesus' direct commandments about prayer teaching that we should indeed pray to the Father. The verb προσεύχομαι (G4336 - to pray) occurs 87 times in the New Testament, and I see no verse anywhere that states a prayer was ever made to the Holy Spirit or to Jesus. The language always says "Father" or "God" or "Lord" (but never "Lord Jesus"). And since we know that 'prayer' is an asking, let me go look at the verb αἰτέω (G154 - to ask) which occurs 71 times in the New Testament. There are four direct times in the Synoptics where we are instructed to ask the Father. Other times, is just says 'ask' without overtly stating to whom. John is the more interesting gospel -

Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.​

(John 15:16 KJV)​

​

And in that day ye shall ask me nothing. Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall ask the Father in my name, he will give it you.​

(John 16:23 KJV)​

Especially this verse:

At that day ye shall ask in my name: and I say not unto you, that I will pray the Father for you:​

(John 16:26 KJV)​

I might need to post about that later on... Jesus said he would NOT pray the Father for you. It's a rather odd statement.

As for the rest, there's no instance in Acts or the epistles where one is to ask either Jesus or the Holy Spirit, though James does say that we are to ask God (cf. Jas 1:5).


Do you consider tongues to be praying in the Spirit or praying with the Spirit ? (Just asking to clear up some definitions, thanks.)


But wouldn't it be better to follow the commandments of Jesus as given?

I'm not condemning anyone who may have been taught differently, but all in all, I have to go with what I read, as I'm a bit reluctant to go beyond that which is written.

Thanks kindly,
Rhema

I would think Jesus praying to Himself would be a bit odd. And Holy Spirit didn't come until after Jesus ascended into Heaven. What I do see important to glean, is that Jesus obeyed the Father and died on the cross for our sins, because He believed a relationship with the Father was that important. So we should pray to the Father.

Here are a few scriptures that lead me to believe we should praise Jesus and talk to Him also in our prayer life:

John 14:5-6 : Lord, we do not know where You are going; how do we know the way?” 6Jesus *said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father except through Me.

Matthew 11:27-30:

27 “All things have been committed to me by my Father. No one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son and those to whom the Son chooses to reveal him.

28 “Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest. 29 Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. 30 For my yoke is easy and my burden is light.”

Matthew 19:14 14 Jesus said, “Let the little children come to me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of heaven belongs to such as these.”


When Jesus says, "Come" what does this mean for Christians today?

 

[Mayflower]

. Do you consider tongues to be praying in the Spirit or praying with the Spirit ? (Just asking to clear up some definitions, thanks.)

Interesting question! Idk. LOL. I say when I pray, I am already in the Spirit. But tongues is a manifestation of the Holy Spirit. So probably "with" or "through" Holy Spirit is a good definition.

 

[Mayflower]

Jesus is the mediator - the door - to our Father in Heaven
Ephesians 2:17 And [Jesus] came and preached peace to you who were far off and peace to those who were near; 18 for through him we both have access in one Spirit to the Father.

Romans 8:9 But you are not in the flesh, you are in the Spirit, if in fact the Spirit of God dwells in you. Any one who does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to him. 10 But if Christ is in you,
although your bodies are dead because of sin, your spirits are alive because of righteousness.

Amen!!!! Absolutely. Thank You, Jesus!!!!

 

[Rhema]

Jesus is the mediator

I keep running into this word, 'mediator.' But it's being used like 'agent,' or even worse, 'arbitrator'. But Mediation is not arbitration. In mediation, neither party talks to the mediator - the postilion is not a "go-between". From my experience, the two parties talk directly to one another, and the mediator listens to the entire conversation to ensure that each side correctly understands what the other party is saying. I've done mediation - the role is primarily one of clarification, and on the rare occasion, facilitation of the process. An example I can give is that I've encountered five different active definitions of the word 'faith'. I've sat in many conversations where two people think they are in agreement about what "faith" means, but when I step in to clarify, both parties suddenly realize they're not talking about the same thing.

In arbitration, two parties present their views and the Arbitrator makes a final declaration like a judge, deciding between them, and I'm not sure that Christians should be comfortable with saying that Jesus is to overrule the Father.

And one of the company said unto him, Master, speak to my brother, that he divide the inheritance with me. And he said unto him, Man, who made me a judge or a divider over you?​

(Luke 12:13-14 KJV)​

Jesus never positioned Himself between believers and the Father, let alone above the Father, or He never would have instructed his disciples to pray directly to the Father. To me, Jesus' role as a mediator was to clarify the process by which we CAN come to the Father directly. Judaism failed. Jesus mediated another Way.

Now from what I understand of the Catholic Church, one is to NEVER bother the Father, or even Jesus first. One is to initially contact the appropriate saint, and then Jesus' mother, but shame on you and who do you think you are to bother Jesus and the Father.... (obviously I'm not Catholic...)

And while I'm not an expert on Jewish thought, hadn't the Jewish priests put themselves in the role of "go between?" The High Priest being a representative or agent between the people and God? Man has always had a problem with direct interaction with God. Look at what the Hebrew people said to Moses (before the High Priest became a thing):

And all the people saw the thunderings, and the lightnings, and the noise of the trumpet, and the mountain smoking: and when the people saw it, they removed, and stood afar off. And they said unto Moses, Speak thou with us, and we will hear: but let not God speak with us, lest we die. And Moses said unto the people, Fear not: for God is come to prove you, and that his fear may be before your faces, that ye sin not. And the people stood afar off, and Moses drew near unto the thick darkness where God was.​

(Exodus 20:18-21 KJV)​

"LET NOT GOD SPEAK WITH US," they said, and ran away. Okay, they got scared. But even Christians had to be rebuked.

Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.​

(Hebrews 4:16 KJV)​

And isn't it the Father who is sitting upon the Throne of Grace?

~~~~

Okay, so I decided to dig a bit further into this word "mediator" (μεσίτης - G3316) and was surprised to find "arbitrator" listed as a gloss in the Liddell Scott Lexicon (LINK). The word itself is used only six times, the majority in Hebrews (three), the rest in Galatians (two) and 1 Timothy (one). But the usage seems a bit strange - more like an 'author' - specifically of this New Covenant.

To me this means I'll probably need to dig two or three weeks into other sources to figure out why μεσίτης was used in the metaphors of these three epistles since none of the entries in Liddell Scott seem to be adequately present the concept.

Thanks kindly,
Rhema

 

[Bill]

@JerryfromMass
@Rhema

I thought this would be a great discussion. I would love for us to explore this some. Jerry and Rhema were talking about prayer and how to pray. So thoughts and scriptures. Do you pray only to the Father? Do you address Jesus and Holy Spirit in prayer also, or the Father in Jesus Name alone.

My view is that I mainly pray to the Father in Jesus Name, but I will have interjections. Where I am praising Jesus directly and asking Him things directly, and Holy Spirit, praising and directing prayer to Him. I'll pray in tongues also. I believe in the Holy Trinity. God is not dead, He is surely alive, so I praise Him in all ways and in all regards. It is okay to ask any part of the God head for anything in prayer, because Holy Spirit is Spirit of God, and and Jesus is God's son and God in bodily form. While I mainly read and add scripture and thoughts here and there, I will start off with the prayer Jesus taught the disciples.

“When you pray, don’t be like the hypocrites who love to pray publicly on street corners and in the synagogues where everyone can see them. I tell you the truth, that is all the reward they will ever get. But when you pray, go away by yourself, shut the door behind you, and pray to your Father in private. Then your Father, who sees everything, will reward you. “When you pray, don’t babble on and on as the Gentiles do. They think their prayers are answered merely by repeating their words again and again. Don’t be like them, for your Father knows exactly what you need even before you ask him! Pray like this: Our Father in heaven, may your name be kept holy. May your Kingdom come soon. May your will be done on earth, as it is in heaven. and forgive us our sins, as we have forgiven those who sin against us. And don’t let us yield to temptation, but rescue us from the evil one. “If you forgive those who sin against you, your heavenly Father will forgive you. But if you refuse to forgive others, your Father will not forgive your sins.
Matthew 6:5‭-‬10‭, ‬12‭-‬15 NLT

https://bible.com/bible/116/mat.6.5-15.NLT

It is my love i share with the Father and His Love for me

 

[Bill]

Thank you Mayflower for starting a thread to keep the discussions from getting all muddled up. Chaos, Combative Rhetoric, and Personality Conflicts are most certainly an attempt to avoid discussing the OP topic and at times are even meant to purposefully distract others from core truths being presented.

For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. But if ye bite and devour one another, take heed that ye be not consumed one of another.​

(Galatians 5:14-15 KJV)​

This is a wonderful passage in Mat. 6 showing where Jesus commands us to pray to your Father. And as I mentioned before, both in this verse and in verse nine, the verb "pray" is written in the imperative mood, to be seen instantly as a command. When Jesus was asked this question....

Lord, teach us to pray, as John also taught his disciples.​

(Luke 11:1 KJV)​

The manner in which the disciples were accustomed to pray (as Jews) must have obviously been different from how they saw Jesus pray. (Else why ask?)

And it came to pass, that, as he was praying in a certain place, when he ceased, one of his disciples said unto him, Lord, teach us to pray, as John also taught his disciples. And he said unto them, When ye pray, say, Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done, as in heaven, so in earth. Give us day by day our daily bread. And forgive us our sins; for we also forgive every one that is indebted to us. And lead us not into temptation; but deliver us from evil.​

(Luke 11:1-4 KJV)​

Well my view is that God is a gracious and loving Father, who puts up with a crap-load of nonsense from his children (don't all parents ??), and yet would still like his commands to be followed.

If ye love me, keep my commandments.​

(John 14:15 KJV)​

​

He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.​

(John 14:21 KJV)​

​

If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.​

(John 15:10 KJV)​

​

And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.​

(1 John 2:3 KJV)​

​

He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.​

(1 John 2:4-5 KJV)​

And while the book of Revelation is not in our canon, we can still read the following -

And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.​

(Revelation 12:17 KJV)​

​

Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.​

(Revelation 14:12 KJV)​

​

Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.​

(Revelation 22:14 KJV)​

I should clarify, though, that by "his commandments" I mean those directly given through the mouth of Jesus - the Gospel that Jesus preached. (Sometimes when one reads the word "commandments" it could mean all sorts of things.)

For me, I see Jesus' direct commandments about prayer teaching that we should indeed pray to the Father. The verb προσεύχομαι (G4336 - to pray) occurs 87 times in the New Testament, and I see no verse anywhere that states a prayer was ever made to the Holy Spirit or to Jesus. The language always says "Father" or "God" or "Lord" (but never "Lord Jesus"). And since we know that 'prayer' is an asking, let me go look at the verb αἰτέω (G154 - to ask) which occurs 71 times in the New Testament. There are four direct times in the Synoptics where we are instructed to ask the Father. Other times, is just says 'ask' without overtly stating to whom. John is the more interesting gospel -

Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.​

(John 15:16 KJV)​

​

And in that day ye shall ask me nothing. Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall ask the Father in my name, he will give it you.​

(John 16:23 KJV)​

Especially this verse:

At that day ye shall ask in my name: and I say not unto you, that I will pray the Father for you:​

(John 16:26 KJV)​

I might need to post about that later on... Jesus said he would NOT pray the Father for you. It's a rather odd statement.

As for the rest, there's no instance in Acts or the epistles where one is to ask either Jesus or the Holy Spirit, though James does say that we are to ask God (cf. Jas 1:5).


Do you consider tongues to be praying in the Spirit or praying with the Spirit ? (Just asking to clear up some definitions, thanks.)


But wouldn't it be better to follow the commandments of Jesus as given?

I'm not condemning anyone who may have been taught differently, but all in all, I have to go with what I read, as I'm a bit reluctant to go beyond that which is written.

Thanks kindly,
Rhema

Tongues is you joining with the Holy Spirit in Praising God

The Holy Spirit is the Love of God between Jesus and the Father

 

[Bill]

I keep running into this word, 'mediator.' But it's being used like 'agent,' or even worse, 'arbitrator'. But Mediation is not arbitration. In mediation, neither party talks to the mediator - the postilion is not a "go-between". From my experience, the two parties talk directly to one another, and the mediator listens to the entire conversation to ensure that each side correctly understands what the other party is saying. I've done mediation - the role is primarily one of clarification, and on the rare occasion, facilitation of the process. An example I can give is that I've encountered five different active definitions of the word 'faith'. I've sat in many conversations where two people think they are in agreement about what "faith" means, but when I step in to clarify, both parties suddenly realize they're not talking about the same thing.

In arbitration, two parties present their views and the Arbitrator makes a final declaration like a judge, deciding between them, and I'm not sure that Christians should be comfortable with saying that Jesus is to overrule the Father.

And one of the company said unto him, Master, speak to my brother, that he divide the inheritance with me. And he said unto him, Man, who made me a judge or a divider over you?​

(Luke 12:13-14 KJV)​

Jesus never positioned Himself between believers and the Father, let alone above the Father, or He never would have instructed his disciples to pray directly to the Father. To me, Jesus' role as a mediator was to clarify the process by which we CAN come to the Father directly. Judaism failed. Jesus mediated another Way.

Now from what I understand of the Catholic Church, one is to NEVER bother the Father, or even Jesus first. One is to initially contact the appropriate saint, and then Jesus' mother, but shame on you and who do you think you are to bother Jesus and the Father.... (obviously I'm not Catholic...)

And while I'm not an expert on Jewish thought, hadn't the Jewish priests put themselves in the role of "go between?" The High Priest being a representative or agent between the people and God? Man has always had a problem with direct interaction with God. Look at what the Hebrew people said to Moses (before the High Priest became a thing):

And all the people saw the thunderings, and the lightnings, and the noise of the trumpet, and the mountain smoking: and when the people saw it, they removed, and stood afar off. And they said unto Moses, Speak thou with us, and we will hear: but let not God speak with us, lest we die. And Moses said unto the people, Fear not: for God is come to prove you, and that his fear may be before your faces, that ye sin not. And the people stood afar off, and Moses drew near unto the thick darkness where God was.​

(Exodus 20:18-21 KJV)​

"LET NOT GOD SPEAK WITH US," they said, and ran away. Okay, they got scared. But even Christians had to be rebuked.

Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.​

(Hebrews 4:16 KJV)​

And isn't it the Father who is sitting upon the Throne of Grace?

~~~~

Okay, so I decided to dig a bit further into this word "mediator" (μεσίτης - G3316) and was surprised to find "arbitrator" listed as a gloss in the Liddell Scott Lexicon (LINK). The word itself is used only six times, the majority in Hebrews (three), the rest in Galatians (two) and 1 Timothy (one). But the usage seems a bit strange - more like an 'author' - specifically of this New Covenant.

To me this means I'll probably need to dig two or three weeks into other sources to figure out why μεσίτης was used in the metaphors of these three epistles since none of the entries in Liddell Scott seem to be adequately present the concept.

Thanks kindly,
Rhema

Im not sure where you get that from about the Catholic Church. It has always been all about Jesus in my life. But it was Jesus who lead me to the Father.

I am a Catholic

 

[Sue D.]

Praying to God -- it's our talking To God the Father Through Jesus Christ. So I start out -- "Dear heavenly Father" and end with 'in Jesus name , Amen."

I've never spoken / prayed in tongues / or heard it being done.

@Rhema -- take a look at 1Timothy 2:5 "For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus vs 6 who gave Himself a ransom for all, to be testified n due time,

You apparently are seeing a Mediator in a negative sense -- but Jesus Christ , as our Mediator -- Is The go-between us and God, the Father.

Jesus Christ died on the cross with our sins -- shed His blood -- in our place. Was taken off the cross and buried and rose again on the 3rd day. God is holy -- cannot look on sin. So Jesus Christ became our 'go-between' -- became our Savior -- made our salvation Possible. We either accept or reject God's provision For our salvation. Which is Jesus Christ' death, burial and bodily resurrection from the dead.

In the Old Testament -- there was the high priest who went yearly to offer sacrifice for the people. It was a never ending process. But Jesus Christ became the Final sacrifice in the New Testament. He was the Lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world.

John 3:16 "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that who so ever believeth on Him, will not perish but have ever lasting life."

It's the Holy Spirit that convicts a person of their need For a savior. And Jesus Christ Is that Savior. Actually that comment was for "Bill" , too.

Jesus Christ / the cross / is the 'bridge' between man and God.

 

[Bill]

Praying to God -- it's our talking To God the Father Through Jesus Christ. So I start out -- "Dear heavenly Father" and end with 'in Jesus name , Amen."

I've never spoken / prayed in tongues / or heard it being done.

@Rhema -- take a look at 1Timothy 2:5 "For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus vs 6 who gave Himself a ransom for all, to be testified n due time,

You apparently are seeing a Mediator in a negative sense -- but Jesus Christ , as our Mediator -- Is The go-between us and God, the Father.

Jesus Christ died on the cross with our sins -- shed His blood -- in our place. Was taken off the cross and buried and rose again on the 3rd day. God is holy -- cannot look on sin. So Jesus Christ became our 'go-between' -- became our Savior -- made our salvation Possible. We either accept or reject God's provision For our salvation. Which is Jesus Christ' death, burial and bodily resurrection from the dead.

In the Old Testament -- there was the high priest who went yearly to offer sacrifice for the people. It was a never ending process. But Jesus Christ became the Final sacrifice in the New Testament. He was the Lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world.

John 3:16 "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that who so ever believeth on Him, will not perish but have ever lasting life."

It's the Holy Spirit that convicts a person of their need For a savior. And Jesus Christ Is that Savior. Actually that comment was for "Bill" , too.

Jesus Christ / the cross / is the 'bridge' between man and God.

Yes indeed, the Holy Spirit convicts a person for thier need of a Savior. Well said.

I dont speak in tongues either. For those who do, i think it is cool. But Gods love for me and my love for Him . I cant really think of words to explain. I love and He loves me in return, what more can be said.

I do still pray other prayers, usually when praying for others

 

[Sue D.]

Tongues is you joining with the Holy Spirit in Praising God

The Holy Spirit is the Love of God between Jesus and the Father

From your comment regarding 'tongues' , it sounded like you Do. But apparently you just meant that That's your understanding Of tongues.

 

[Rhema]

Im not sure where you get that from about the Catholic Church.

From a Catholic.

I am a Catholic

Roman or Orthodox ??

Full catechism ??

Thanks for sharing.

 

[Rhema]

@Rhema -- take a look at 1Timothy 2:5 "For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus vs 6 who gave Himself a ransom for all, to be testified n due time,

You apparently are seeing a Mediator in a negative sense -- but Jesus Christ , as our Mediator -- Is The go-between us and God, the Father.

Hi Sue,

Thanks for the recommendation, but I've translated most of the New Testament and have read the Greek text for many years now. Something caused the KJV translators (and other Greek linguists) to settle on the English word 'mediator' for μεσίτης (G3316), but I'm not sure anymore that they made the right decision. The way I think, I ask myself... what would a reader of Koine Greek from 2,000 years ago think μεσίτης (G3316) would mean? And then I'll ask myself whether the author truly would have meant that. Then I pray about it and most of the time God tells me what was meant. But I am quite convinced that it didn't mean "go-between" or Jesus wouldn't have commanded his disciples to directly pray to the Father. Note that Jesus didn't say God, he flat out said "Father". (The question I then ask myself is whether I'll obey it or not.) So this idea of praying to (or through) a mediator feels like when people go to a medium to speak with dead spirits. The medium acts as a mediator.

What do you think the word "mediator" means in this verse? (Remember, italicized words in the KJV are words that the translators added.)

Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.​

(Galatians 3:19 KJV)​

That's always been a puzzling verse to me (but I'm not asking anyone to explain it). Why would angels be ordaining anything? But again, it's a rhetorical question.

God is holy -- cannot look on sin.

Do you have a scripture verse for that doctrine? (Just wondering.) I mean Cain sinned and God had a rather in-depth conversation with him after that happened.

We either accept or reject God's provision For our salvation. Which is Jesus Christ' death, burial and bodily resurrection from the dead.

You mention "death, burial and bodily resurrection," but I noticed that you left out the teachings of Jesus. Is there a reason for that?

Since Jesus, the Son of God, came preaching the Gospel, then the Gospel is what Jesus preached. One can easily see that there are commands within the Gospel of Jesus, and one would think that we either accept or reject God's commandments as given through His Son. One of those commandments of Jesus is that we are to pray to the Father. Maybe it's just me, but I'm not truly comfortable ignoring a direct teaching of the Son of God.

So I start out -- "Dear heavenly Father" and end with 'in Jesus name , Amen."

Can't fault that !! (And wouldn't want to.)

Jesus Christ / the cross / is the 'bridge' between man and God.

Well then we'd better make sure we don't fall off the bridge, and pray to the Father as Jesus Christ taught.

Thanks kindly,
Rhema

PS: Oh...

I've never spoken / prayed in tongues / or heard it being done.

I do. (Not bragging, just stating a fact) but I wasn't given this gift until I was 31. Wish I had gone seeking it earlier in life (cf. Mat 7:7). It's... glorious.

 

[Bill]

From a Catholic.


Roman or Orthodox ??

Full catechism ??

Thanks for sharing.

That catholic you talked to doesnt talk for anyone i know

 

[Bill]

From your comment regarding 'tongues' , it sounded like you Do. But apparently you just meant that That's your understanding Of tongues.

No , i do know what tongues is. And i dont use it. Never really thought about trying . Paul doesnt think to highly of it.

I dont have a problem with those who do speak in Tongues. Just not my cup of tea

 

[Bill]

From a Catholic.


Roman or Orthodox ??

Full catechism ??

Thanks for sharing.

Just Catholic. Im not really into all the divisions. There is One God.
Same with all the Churches, there is one family of God.

And everyone thinks they are in the only one. Islands to yourselves. Lol
Christians are funny that way