Rhema
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Like that Catholic and Protestant division... Got it.
Praying to God
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Mayflower
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God's love is the greatest. It is the absolute best.
Mayflower
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I think mediator is a really good word. This is what Jesus is. We were an opposing party out of Christ Jesus. Accepting Christ sacrifice is the agreement for reconciliation and redemption.
"For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have everlasting life." John 3:16
Do you believe these verses below, and how do you believe it to mean? I copied the rest for context.
----
9For in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form, 10and in Christ you have been brought to fullness. He is the head over every power and authority. 11In him you were also circumcised with a circumcision not performed by human hands. Your whole self ruled by the flesh b was put off when you were circumcised by c Christ, 12having been buried with him in baptism, in which you were also raised with him through your faith in the working of God, who raised him from the dead.
13When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made you d alive with Christ. He forgave us all our sins, 14having canceled the charge of our legal indebtedness, which stood against us and condemned us; he has taken it away, nailing it to the cross. 15And having disarmed the powers and authorities, he made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them by the cross.
Verses 13/14 I highlight, because it also shows Christ again as the mediator. My thought is since Jesus is God, we need to pray to God. We need to recognize Jesus in prayer. Jesus spoke of praying to Father God, because why would He pray to Himself? Do you think Father God talks to His Son? Do you believe Jesus can hear us? That He is alive? That He is Omniscient/omnipotent as God the Father? While I mainly ask things of my Father, many times I have cried out to Jesus, particularly when I feel condemned and need to remember He paid the price for my sin already.
Bill
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He is being sarcastic
For one thing -- I grew up with the KJV -- went to the older NIV and then to the NKJV. Easier to read / understand.
You felt led to translate the New Testament, yourself? Why? It's already been translated for us. You said you're not satisfied with the way they translated 'mediator'?
At the time that Jesus was talking to His disciples -- He hadn't gone to the cross yet to Become our mediator.
so your problem is that Jesus didn't tell them to pray to God, but to the Father -- well -- the Lord's Prayer begins with 'Our Father, who art in heaven, hallowed by thy name....."
The trinity = God the Father , Jesus Christ His Son and the Holy Spirit.
You're referring to 1 Timothy 2:5 -- looking at the passage in KJV -- For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus." "There" is italicized.
The NKJ capitalizes Mediator and the KJ has it 'm'ediator
Sounds like you're equating the term 'medium' with 'mediator'. A medium is trying to conjur up spirits of the dead as in a saence setting finding out the future. Someone in the Old Testament consulted with a medium for advice? the 'medium' in that case wasn't real -- a fake and was as shocked as the asker was that the 'spirit' came up.
Maybe you should be satisfied with what the real translators have 'come up with' -- trusting Scripture -- instead of relying on your own interpretation of.
Galations 3:19 NKJ "What purpose then does the law serve? It was added because of transgressions, till the Seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was appointed through angels by the hand of a mediator."
There are two differences between the KJ and the NKJ. The introductory phrase -- What purpose then does the law serve? compared with 'wherefore then serveth the law ( serveth is italicized in KJ) AND 'it was appointed' compared to 'ordained' / ordained per KJ and appointed per NKJ.
It was the Lord who had the conversation with Cain back in Genesis.
Then back in ch 3: 13 "And the Lord God said to the woman.
The Old Testament deals with life -- differently than the New Testament -- the various dispensations of / periods of time in Scripture.
The 'death, burial and bodily resurrection of Jesus Christ'. To be saved as per 1 Corinthians 15:1-3 -- Paul , called to be an apostle of Jesus Christ through the will of God, ....... To the church of God which is at Corinth.
Are you by chance referring to the book of Matthew 4 - 5 or so -- The Beatitudes / Sermon on the Mount. ? as the teachings of Jesus?
Wouldn't all of Scripture be considered the teachings of Jesus? Would that fall under the heading of "2 Timothy 3:16 "All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine , for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness."
We Do have the Gospel unto salvation -- and we Also have the 4 Gospels in the New Testament -- Matthew, Mark, Luke and John.
The Gospel unto salvation 'to be saved' has already been shared - 1 Corinthians 15:1-3 and we Also have Romans 10:9-10 "That if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation." vs 13 "For whoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved."
Rhema
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I was kinda poking fun at Bill who "wasn't into divisions" but was Catholic. (Sorry Bill... couldn't pass up a good jest...)
HOWEVER... Sue....
There are three major branches of Christianity based upon the two most fundamental doctrines - that of Soteriology (how one is saved) and Ecclesiastical Authority (who is "in charge") - these three being Catholic (itself having three sub-branches - RCC, Eastern Orthodox, and Church of the East (think "far east"); Protestant (with quite a number of sub-branches); and finally Pentecostal (although this branch is not always cohesive in its doctrinal definitions).
Hope that helps.
Rhema
PS: Not sure how strict this site is to sticking to the OP. Hope I hadn't strayed too far from the path, or ought I to have answered this by PM... Don't know, but ... never upset the locals - as it were.
Rhema
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Not saying it isn't, but I was extremely surprised that Liddell Scott had both mediator and arbitrator as English glosses for μεσίτης (G3316), because I see the roles of these two as being significantly different - mediator as facilitator and arbitrator as a judge.
Ouch... the Doctrine of Christology is really off point from the opening post and I'd rather not stray from a discussion about prayer. I drink scotch...(but I've never been drunk)... is that a deal breaker? ... ( I mean the scotch) ... It is for my parent's old church in which I was raised from 12 yrs. to 17 yrs. (alas I'm 62 - how the heck did that happen). They also believe that people speaking / praying in tongues are demon possessed. No, I mean LITERALLY. After being "baptized" in tongues at 31 yrs. (obviously in a church far far away), I later found out that they held an elders' meeting to consider an exorcism, and the church took me to court to have my power of attorney for my parents removed - against my parent's wishes ! My lawyer said it was the most bizarre case he'd ever encountered (and the judge agreed with him).
I like the prayer in Ephesians 1 -
{Wherefore I } Cease not to give thanks for you, making mention of you in my prayers; That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him: The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know (1) what is the hope of his calling, and (2) what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints, And (3) what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power,
(Ephesians 1:16-19 KJV)
I've also found this passage fascinating -
Who in the days of his flesh, when he had offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto him that was able to save him from death, and was heard in that he feared; Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered; And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;
(Hebrews 5:7-9 KJV)
( I owe you a brief apology. It seems I completely missed your one post... I'll have to read it tomorrow...)
.
Kindly,
Rhema
Resurrection... you bet !!
Rhema
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Nope... too harsh a word... unless you're extremely sensitive.
I was just making a joke.
Bill
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I dont worry too much about the locals, unless you are trying to be popular.
Of course in this case, you might become more popular than what you really want. Lol
List Catholics and Protestants in same sentance, like salt in the wound . Laughing out loud. They all need to get over it already and focus on the real enemy .
Yup Catholic. And i love my brothers and sisters in God. One family
Bill
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Maybe, but i did catch you . Joking
Rhema
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No need to be nasty, is there? Those "real" translators rather messed up Ephesians 6:17. (And I've spoken at length with Wycliffe Bible Translators about that - though decades ago.)
Yet you yourself mentioned three different translations that you've switched through. At some point the NIV people felt led to create a new translation. (Was that wrong?) And the NKJV people weren't content with either, yes? The Geneva Bible was a perfectly good English translation at the time, but King James felt it belittled the Divine Right of Kings, so had his own made back then in 1611 (nobody liked it). But granted, it is difficult to argue with the scholarship behind the NRSV - Metzger et.al. (Moravian Seminary and Princeton Theological are my alma maters.)
At the age of 14, my first Greek NT was this book, see link here -
Interlinear KJV-NIV Parallel New Testament in Greek and English: Marshall, Alfred: 9780310950707: Amazon.com: Books
Interlinear KJV-NIV Parallel New Testament in Greek and English [Marshall, Alfred] on Amazon.com. *FREE* shipping on qualifying offers. Interlinear KJV-NIV Parallel New Testament in Greek and English
www.amazon.com
"Biblical scholar Bruce M. Metzger criticized the NIV 1984 edition for the addition of the word "just" into Jeremiah 7:22 so the verse becomes "For when I brought your forefathers/ancestors out of Egypt and spoke to them, I did not just give them commands about burnt offerings and sacrifices."
- Metzger, Bruce M. (2001). The Bible in Translation : Ancient and English Versions. Grand Rapids, MI: Baker Academic. p. 140.
I'm sure you've noticed, though, that most all of my quotes are/will be from the KJV, unless I'm involved in a topic where a "drill down" into Greek becomes necessary. That's because the KJV is generally accepted, and I know where most of the major landmines are, like 1 Cor. 11 and the purposefully mistranslated 2 Tim. 3:16 (but those are long topics best left for another day).
You admonish me when saying I should be "-- trusting Scripture --" when you seem to mean I should be '-- trusting translators --'. And I quite understand that most all y'all are truly at the mercy of translators, and even cults like John W. Schoenheit at Spirit & Truth Fellowship International make up their own Translations like the REV (LINK)
The thing is, Sue, I DO trust scripture. That's why I felt I should learn its origin language, so I could read scripture directly. But along the way, I also happened to learn that in truth, one cannot always trust translators (and I'll present the NWT and NIV, along with the REV, as examples of proof). But translation is quite different than interpretation, Sue, and most everybody relies upon their own interpretation (or their pastor's, or their church's). But it's not my "interpretation" nor is it my "opinion" that in Ephesians 6:17 the "Word of God" is the Spirit, (not the Sword); and that the Sword is taken up by means of all prayer. That's exactly what the Greek text says, and I've never had a Greek scholar disagree with me on this. (See this thread's parent.)
I know a Greek scholar who's said that reading the New Testament in Greek is like watching TV in colour instead of black and white. And I've found, at times, that it's just thrilling. But please, I'm not saying that everybody has to learn Greek and read the Bible in Greek. But the Marshall book is pretty inexpensive by now, and it's a wonderful place to start. The only complaints I've ever received is that some people need to use a magnifying glass.
Sue, I realize you've brought up a number of other topics, but they'll have to wait until tomorrow, as I'm pushing 3:30 am here, and don't wish to fall asleep on my keyboard. Thank you so much for writing, and I'll try to address what I can.
God Bless
Rhema
PS:
And the LORD (H3068 - YHWH) said unto Cain, Why art thou wroth? and why is thy countenance fallen?
(Genesis 4:6 KJV)
Yes, God YHWH spoke with Cain, so I'm still curious about your one statement here:
Do you have a scripture verse for that doctrine? Because I don't understand it. If God cannot look on sin, God YHWH (Jehovah) still had that conversation with Cain.
Have a blessed day.
Rhema
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Couldn't agree with you more. You ever hear of the Philadelphia Bible wars?
Popularity never happens to me, I typically fall flat faced into infamy.
G'night.
Mayflower
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Not saying it isn't, but I was extremely surprised that Liddell Scott had both mediator and arbitrator as English glosses for μεσίτης (G3316), because I see the roles of these two as being significantly different - mediator as facilitator and arbitrator as a judge.
Ouch... the Doctrine of Christology is really off point from the opening post and I'd rather not stray from a discussion about prayer. I drink scotch...(but I've never been drunk)... is that a deal breaker? ... ( I mean the scotch) ... It is for my parent's old church in which I was raised from 12 yrs. to 17 yrs. (alas I'm 62 - how the heck did that happen). They also believe that people speaking / praying in tongues are demon possessed. No, I mean LITERALLY. After being "baptized" in tongues at 31 yrs. (obviously in a church far far away), I later found out that they held an elders' meeting to consider an exorcism, and the church took me to court to have my power of attorney for my parents removed - against my parent's wishes ! My lawyer said it was the most bizarre case he'd ever encountered (and the judge agreed with him).
I like the prayer in Ephesians 1 -
{Wherefore I } Cease not to give thanks for you, making mention of you in my prayers; That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him: The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know (1) what is the hope of his calling, and (2) what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints, And (3) what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power,(Ephesians 1:16-19 KJV)
I've also found this passage fascinating -
Who in the days of his flesh, when he had offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto him that was able to save him from death, and was heard in that he feared; Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered; And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;(Hebrews 5:7-9 KJV)
( I owe you a brief apology. It seems I completely missed your one post... I'll have to read it tomorrow...)
.
Kindly,
Rhema
Resurrection... you bet !!
Well I don't mean in it as a burn, but I think how you view Christ is going to determine if you pray to Him or not. If you do not see Jesus as God/ or the Holy Trinity, of course you wouldn't think praying to Him is the right thing. I ask tons of questions, but more for thinking purposes. So do not feel obligated to answer everything like a hotseat.
But yeh, I ask that, because prayer is going to be influenced by that question among other things. Y'all have a great day! I'll be back on later tonight.
Greetings,
something a little off topic but as the talk was poking around RCC and no doubt its validity etc, i thought i would share the following.
Certainly the early 'papacy' came with almost a death sentence...
something to chew over
Bless you all ....><>
above info from: List of popes who died violently - Wikipedia
something a little off topic but as the talk was poking around RCC and no doubt its validity etc, i thought i would share the following.
Certainly the early 'papacy' came with almost a death sentence...
- Saint Peter (c.67), traditionally martyred by crucifixion
- Pope Linus (Saint) (c.67-c.76)
- Pope Anacletus or Cletus (Saint) (c.79-c.92)
- Pope Clement I (Saint) (c.92-c.99), thrown into sea with anchor around his neck
- Pope Evaristus (c.99-c.108),[4][5] not listed in the Roman Martyrology but executed
- Pope Sixtus I (Saint) (c.119-c.128)
- Pope Telesphorus (Saint) (c.128-c.138)
- Pope Anicetus (Saint) (155-166), traditionally martyred
- Pope Soter (Saint) (166-175), died a martyr
- Pope Eleuterus (Saint) (175-189), died a martyr
- Pope Victor I (Saint) 189–199, died a martyr
- Pope Calixtus I (Saint) (217-222), died a martyr
- Pope Urban I (Saint) 222–230, died a martyr
- Pope Pontian (Saint) 230–235, condemned to mines in Sardinia and died on island of Tavolara
- Pope Anterus (Saint), elected 235-12-21, martyred at hands of Emperor Maximus
- Pope Fabian (Saint), elected 236-1-10 and died a martyr during persecution and decapitated by Decius
- Pope Cornelius (Saint), elected March 251 and died a martyr June 253
- Pope Lucius I (Saint), elected 253-6-25 and martyred 254-3-5
- Pope Stephen I (Saint), elected 254-5-12 and martyred 257-8-2
- Pope Sixtus II (Saint), elected 257-8-30 and martyred 258-8-6
- Pope Dionysius (Saint), elected 259-7-22 after year of persecutions and died 268-12-26, martyred
- Pope Felix I (Saint), elected 269-1-5 and died 274-12-30, martyred
- Pope Eutychian (Saint), elected 275-1-4 and martyred 283-12-7
- Pope Caius (Saint), elected 283-12-17 and martyred 296-4-22 but not at hands of his uncle Diocletian
- Pope Marcellinus (Saint), elected 296-6-30 and martyred 304-10-25 during persecution of Diocletian
- Pope Marcellus I (Saint), elected 308-5-27 after 4-year vacancy and martyred 309-1-16
- Pope Eusebius (Saint), elected 309-4-18 and martyred in Sicily 309-8-17.
- Pope John I (Saint), elected August 13, 523, during the Ostrogothic occupation of the Italian peninsula. Was sent as an envoy by Ostrogoth king Theodoric the Great to Constantinople. Upon return, Theodoric accused John I of conspiracy with the Byzantine empire. Imprisoned and starved to death on 18 May 526.
something to chew over
Bless you all ....><>
above info from: List of popes who died violently - Wikipedia
@Rhema -- I"ve never heard of the NWT or the REV.
BAck some years ago, my sister and brother-in-law were missionaries in Brazil under ABWE. Once they retired they were asked to translate college level / university -level seminary courses for the pastors in Brazil. They wanted the national pastors to be able to lead their own churches. My sister and brother-in-law were there to start churches -- started with getting into the communities as neighbors and then gradually starting small groups leading to churches. My sister's specialty was grammar and her husband was in the graphic design. They learned Brazilian Portugeese. Going from English To the new language. Grammar / sentence structure / context is Very important to understanding of Any passage.
You brought up the Philadelphia Bible Wars -- that was taking place back in 1844 or so. Problem with antiCatholic sentiment -- the Irish/ Catholic immigrants.
May I ask what denominational background you're from? Sounds like possibly RCC? Or are you your own denomination.
You Also sound very distrusting Of anything outside of the original Greek / Hebrew. Like 'someone' is out to spread false doctrine. What is wrong with the Doctrine of Christology / who Jesus Christ is? He Is the Son of God. He's the 2nd person of the Godhead/ trinity.
BAck some years ago, my sister and brother-in-law were missionaries in Brazil under ABWE. Once they retired they were asked to translate college level / university -level seminary courses for the pastors in Brazil. They wanted the national pastors to be able to lead their own churches. My sister and brother-in-law were there to start churches -- started with getting into the communities as neighbors and then gradually starting small groups leading to churches. My sister's specialty was grammar and her husband was in the graphic design. They learned Brazilian Portugeese. Going from English To the new language. Grammar / sentence structure / context is Very important to understanding of Any passage.
You brought up the Philadelphia Bible Wars -- that was taking place back in 1844 or so. Problem with antiCatholic sentiment -- the Irish/ Catholic immigrants.
May I ask what denominational background you're from? Sounds like possibly RCC? Or are you your own denomination.
You Also sound very distrusting Of anything outside of the original Greek / Hebrew. Like 'someone' is out to spread false doctrine. What is wrong with the Doctrine of Christology / who Jesus Christ is? He Is the Son of God. He's the 2nd person of the Godhead/ trinity.
Mayflower
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It is admirable for those willing to die for God. One reason why I am Christian and not Catholic, is I would not pray to saints/pope/etc.
