Praying to God

[Sue D.]

@Mayflower -- Biblically we're not supposed to pray to saints/ pope/ etc. We Are to be praying to God through Jesus Christ.

 

[Rhema]

Jesus is the mediator - the door - to our Father in Heaven

My apologies, Waggles,

I hit that word "mediator" and just ran off on a word hunt, forgetting the rest of your post. (That was rude of me.)

But yes, since Jesus is the door to our Father in Heaven, I would think that one is supposed to go through the door, and then pray to our Father in Heaven knowing full well that He hears us. Maybe it's just me, but I find it a bit odd to talk to a door. (this is a wink smiley, yes?)

I've never seen the picture you used before. Is it quite common, or your own work?

In Judaism ..., was one really able to boldly approach the throne of the Father in prayer expecting to be heard? From the words of Jesus it would seem that there was a lot of repetition, and much praying in public, so that says to me a lot of insecurity and politics. I'm also aware that one may fax written prayers to be stuffed into the cracks of the "Wailing Wall" in Jerusalem. I find that odd too.

One of these days I'll learn what "following" means. Not wishing to be rude again, I'll say thanks. (Wait... you're not a "Judaizer" following me are you ?? )

Blessings,
Rhema

 

[Waggles]

I've never seen the picture you used before. Is it quite common, or your own work?

I created this simple chart through window paint on my PC - I wanted to do more but the software is pretty basic.

Jesus and the Father are one and when we pray to God or to our Father, Jesus is also aware of our prayers.
They are definitely team players and work together for the good of those who love God and righteousness.

 

[Sue D.]

@Rhema -- may I ask what denomination you are.

No need to be nasty, is there? Those "real" translators rather messed up Ephesians 6:17. (And I've spoken at length with Wycliffe Bible Translators about that - though decades ago.)


Yet you yourself mentioned three different translations that you've switched through. At some point the NIV people felt led to create a new translation. (Was that wrong?) And the NKJV people weren't content with either, yes? The Geneva Bible was a perfectly good English translation at the time, but King James felt it belittled the Divine Right of Kings, so had his own made back then in 1611 (nobody liked it). But granted, it is difficult to argue with the scholarship behind the NRSV - Metzger et.al. (Moravian Seminary and Princeton Theological are my alma maters.)

At the age of 14, my first Greek NT was this book, see link here -

Interlinear KJV-NIV Parallel New Testament in Greek and English: Marshall, Alfred: 9780310950707: Amazon.com: Books

Interlinear KJV-NIV Parallel New Testament in Greek and English [Marshall, Alfred] on Amazon.com. *FREE* shipping on qualifying offers. Interlinear KJV-NIV Parallel New Testament in Greek and English

www.amazon.com

It's very good - I still recommend it. (Used copies are like five bucks.) Mine was printed by the magazine Christianity Today, and it's published by Zondervan, the creators of the NIV. But while reading Marshall's interlinear and being able to compare this with the KJV and NIV, the discrepancies between all three versions became worrisome, so I decided to learn the language for myself. I'm not sure why you think this is wrong? As far as the NIV goes, they altered the text - on purpose.

"Biblical scholar Bruce M. Metzger criticized the NIV 1984 edition for the addition of the word "just" into Jeremiah 7:22 so the verse becomes "For when I brought your forefathers/ancestors out of Egypt and spoke to them, I did not just give them commands about burnt offerings and sacrifices."​

- Metzger, Bruce M. (2001). The Bible in Translation : Ancient and English Versions. Grand Rapids, MI: Baker Academic. p. 140.​

I'm sure you've noticed, though, that most all of my quotes are/will be from the KJV, unless I'm involved in a topic where a "drill down" into Greek becomes necessary. That's because the KJV is generally accepted, and I know where most of the major landmines are, like 1 Cor. 11 and the purposefully mistranslated 2 Tim. 3:16 (but those are long topics best left for another day).


You admonish me when saying I should be "-- trusting Scripture --" when you seem to mean I should be '-- trusting translators --'. And I quite understand that most all y'all are truly at the mercy of translators, and even cults like John W. Schoenheit at Spirit & Truth Fellowship International make up their own Translations like the REV (LINK)

The thing is, Sue, I DO trust scripture. That's why I felt I should learn its origin language, so I could read scripture directly. But along the way, I also happened to learn that in truth, one cannot always trust translators (and I'll present the NWT and NIV, along with the REV, as examples of proof). But translation is quite different than interpretation, Sue, and most everybody relies upon their own interpretation (or their pastor's, or their church's). But it's not my "interpretation" nor is it my "opinion" that in Ephesians 6:17 the "Word of God" is the Spirit, (not the Sword); and that the Sword is taken up by means of all prayer. That's exactly what the Greek text says, and I've never had a Greek scholar disagree with me on this. (See this thread's parent.)

I know a Greek scholar who's said that reading the New Testament in Greek is like watching TV in colour instead of black and white. And I've found, at times, that it's just thrilling. But please, I'm not saying that everybody has to learn Greek and read the Bible in Greek. But the Marshall book is pretty inexpensive by now, and it's a wonderful place to start. The only complaints I've ever received is that some people need to use a magnifying glass.

Sue, I realize you've brought up a number of other topics, but they'll have to wait until tomorrow, as I'm pushing 3:30 am here, and don't wish to fall asleep on my keyboard. Thank you so much for writing, and I'll try to address what I can.

God Bless
Rhema

PS:

And the LORD (H3068 - YHWH) said unto Cain, Why art thou wroth? and why is thy countenance fallen?​

(Genesis 4:6 KJV)​

Yes, God YHWH spoke with Cain, so I'm still curious about your one statement here:

Do you have a scripture verse for that doctrine? Because I don't understand it. If God cannot look on sin, God YHWH (Jehovah) still had that conversation with Cain.

Have a blessed day.

A couple of questions for you -- Why do you feel the translators really messed up Ephesians 6:17 "And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the Word of God:" What would You have done with it?

And back in the days of King James 1 -- Any literature printed had to have his permission to Be printed. It was the language spoken back in his day. The English language has changed a bit since then. In fact -- the 1611 was up-dated. The NewKingJames Version simply replaces the 'thee's' and 'thou's' with you and yours. Updating the English.

The older NIV -New International Version is more reader-friendly. I came across that version when my husband and I were visiting my daughter and her husband on vacation. I saw a Bible on a table and looked through it. It was in paragraph form instead of verse by verse. For me it was easier reading.

And we were at another church some years ago and the pastor who'd been using the KJV told us about his NKJV Bible. I thought he was saying that he'd bought a new Bible. But he was introducing the New King James Version to us. So I ended up reverting back to the KJ in the form of the NKJV. There are lots of pastors who prefer the NAS rather than the KJV or NKJ.

someone was asking which was the Best Bible to read? The response was 'the one a person will read'.

A lot of people are reluctant To read their own Bible -- The RCC priest especially says that they Need the priest to correctly interpret what their Bible is saying. But when they Do start reading their Bible on their own -- they find out what it is Really saying and many times leave the RCC. Mostly the Bible is pretty understandable. The major and minor prophets -- well -- I know it's the English language, but I Still don't understand what I'm reading. But the New Testament -- that's pretty understandable. It means what it says and sometimes a person simply doesn't like what it's saying. "We' need to adjust to God's Word -- not adjust His Word to our liking.

Some people do not like the NIV. I grew up with KJ so I probably read the KJ into a passage without even thinking about it. Mostly the discrepensies are in areas that don't really make any difference. They don't affect doctrinal teachings.

I was just looking up Ephesians 6:17 again "And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is he Word of God." Your comments -- does it Really make that much difference? Aren't they really saying the same things.

And What problem do you have with 2 Timothy 3:16 "All Scripture is given my inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for correction, for instruction in righteousness." That I would like to hear.

God's Word -- the Bible is good enough for me.

 

[Rhema]

I"ve never heard of the NWT or the REV.

NWT is the New World Translation of the Jehovah's Witnesses, the REV is the Revised English Version produced by Spirit & Truth Fellowship International (LINK - Matthew 1, REV Bible and Commentary). I have found both to be very problematic.

They learned Brazilian Portugeese. Going from English To the new language. Grammar / sentence structure / context is Very important to understanding of Any passage.

Couldn't agree more about the "Grammar / sentence structure / context." (Pondering which English version, ... KJV, NASB, NRSV.) I see that ABWE has Baptist roots, so NIV is likely in the mix too. Just a rhetorical pondering.

-- that was taking place back in 1844 or so.

The root cause being which Bible, KJV (Protestant) or DRB (Catholic) should or would be used in public schools.

The Cause of the Riots:

Despite its tradition of religious tolerance, Protestant Christianity dominated the State of Pennsylvania. The Protestant King James Bible was required reading in all public schools. Students were also required to learn Protestant hymns. Some instructional documents used in the schools portrayed the Pope as the Anti-Christ.​

- LINK​

You Also sound very distrusting Of anything outside of the original Greek / Hebrew. Like 'someone' is out to spread false doctrine.

Compare the two:

KJV -

From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say, Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.​

(Matthew 4:17 KJV)​

DRB -

From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say: Do penance, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.​

(Matthew 4:17 DRB)​

Do you think they say the same thing?

Instead of "distrusting" one might instead think "Wise as a serpent."

Behold, I send you forth as sheep in the midst of wolves: be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves.​

(Matthew 10:16 KJV)​

​

There are many bad doctrines and teachings I've been able to avoid.

What is wrong with the Doctrine of Christology / who Jesus Christ is? He Is the Son of God. He's the 2nd person of the Godhead/ trinity.

I've never said anything was wrong with Christology. Given Arius (LINK) and Pelagius (LINK), and even Martin Luther for that matter, there are topics that go beyond what is written and become extremely problematic to discuss on a forum like this. I've found it wise (for me) to discuss certain topics like Christology only with people who have graduated seminary.

But yes indeed, Jesus is most certainly the Son of God.

May I ask what denominational background you're from? Sounds like possibly RCC? Or are you your own denomination.

Neither RCC or "my own." Of the three major branches of Christianity (my prior post to you) I fall somewhere on the spectrum of Pentecostal / Independent Charismatic. But Sue, C'mon. EVERY denomination at one point started out with one person... Martin Luther, George Fox, John Wesley, John Calvin, John Knox, Roger Williams, Emanuel Swedenborg (LINK), Jan Hus (the Moravians were 50 years before Martin Luther - LINK), ... shall we condemn these people out of hand at the time when they were their own denomination?

God Bless,
Rhema

 

[Rhema]

A couple of questions for you -- Why do you feel the translators really messed up Ephesians 6:17 "And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the Word of God:" What would You have done with it?

My abject apologies Sue. I had thought you followed us over here from a parent thread. Sorry for the presumption.

This post will explain what I mean... just be patient and take the time to read it all the way through.

LINK

Thanks Kindly,
Rhema

 

[Rhema]

Here are a few scriptures that lead me to believe we should praise Jesus and talk to Him also in our prayer life:

John 14:5-6 : Lord, we do not know where You are going; how do we know the way?” 6Jesus *said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father except through Me.

But isn't the final objective the coming / going to the Father ?

It seems to me that the Jew is trying to get to the Father, the Muslim is trying to get to the Father, even the Buddhist is trying to get to "God" someway or another, but those ways fail. That would explain the first part, I am the way. The ways used by all other humans or religions don't work. The Way of Moses doesn't work. The Way of Mohammad doesn't work. The Way of Buddha or Vishnu or Shinto, those don't work. The Way of Jesus, though, is the Gospel that Jesus taught, and we have specific commands to pray to the Father. His Teachings are Truth, and his teachings bring life - so that we CAN come to the Father, which I why I think we should. Doing anything else isn't The Way we were taught by Him. Doing anything else is following a different voice. My Prayer-Conversations, then, are with the Father. I don't think one can even have an actual real Prayer-Conversation with Jesus. There's not a Jesus here to speak with you. Jesus is gone. He said he was going. And he did.

But I tell you the truth: it is expedient to you that I go. For if I go not, the Paraclete will not come to you: but if I go, I will send him to you.​

(John 16:7 DRB)​

So Jesus isn't here, but the Paraclete was sent in his place. Now I understand a widow talking to her dead husband, ... but the husband does not hear. The husband is gone. My children are still alive, but they all live elsewhere, and I sometimes talk to them when they're not around, but I also know I'm "talking to myself." Jesus said he was going away, and he went. Jesus is not here. He is with us, but he is not here with us.

Because I go to the Father: and whatsoever you shall ask the Father in my name, that will I do: that the Father may be glorified in the Son. If you shall ask me any thing in my name, that I will do.​

(John 14:13-14 DRB)​

Even with Jesus gone, having ascended to the Father, He still commanded that we ask the Father in Jesus name. I believe as with everything, if you do it wrong, it won't work. The whole goal is to "come to the Father."

If ye love me, keep my commandments. And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;​

(John 14:15-16 KJV)​

Flat out... keep my commandments (those of Jesus) and the Comforter will abide with us forever, not Jesus. And a repeated commandment of Jesus was that we pray to the Father. If I go beyond that, I'm going beyond what is written. I don't see any example in the New Testament where someone ever prays to Jesus or even is instructed to pray to Jesus. If you can find a verse, let me know. It's always possible I missed something.

Matthew 11:27 “All things have been committed to me by my Father. No one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son and those to whom the Son chooses to reveal him.

Okay, your text says "committed to me," mine says "entrusted". But the final goal here, again, is that the Son reveals the Father to us so that we may know the Father. Here and now, how does the Son reveal the Father?? I think it's obvious that this means the teachings one finds in the Gospel texts, including numerous verses that say we should obey these teachings.

Matthew 11:28 “Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest. 29 Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. 30 For my yoke is easy and my burden is light.”

As opposed to what? The yoke of Christ as opposed to ... the yoke of Judaism, the yoke of the Law. So we learn from Jesus, and the things we learn are... pray to the Father. Sorry, I know it sounds like a broken record, but that's what it says... I can rest in following the specific teachings of Christ when he says... "pray in this manner".

Matthew 19:14 Jesus said, “Let the little children come to me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of heaven belongs to such as these.”
When Jesus says, "Come" what does this mean for Christians today?

There is a simplicity when dropping all the other complex theological garbage and nonsense - clearing one's mind. If we (metaphorically) go sit in the lap of Jesus as a child, do you think He's going to say anything different from what He's already said in the Sermon on the Mount and the Sermon on the Plain? "Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;"

That's what it means. It means... do that... do those things I'M telling you to do...

To be honest, the concept of praying to Jesus never really crossed my mind. It's just not in the text. It's not in the teachings. If you can show me.... cool.

God bless,
Rhema

PS:

Interesting question! Idk. LOL. I say when I pray, I am already in the Spirit. But tongues is a manifestation of the Holy Spirit. So probably "with" or "through" Holy Spirit is a good definition.

Going back to my key verse,

Praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, and watching thereunto with all perseverance and supplication for all saints;​

(Ephesians 6:18 KJV)​

(Take the Sword...) δια (BY MEANS OF) πασης (ALL) προσευχης (PRAYER) και (AND) δεησεως (PETITION or SUPPLICATION) προσευχομενοι (PRAYING) εν (IN) παντι (ALL) καιρω (OCCASIONS) εν (IN) πνευματι (SPIRIT) και (AND) εις (INTO) αυτο (THIS) τουτο (HEREOF) αγρυπνουντες (BEING ALERT) εν (IN) παση (ALL) προσκαρτερησει (PERSISTENCE) και (AND) δεησει (PRAYERS) περι (WITH REGARDS TO) παντων (ALL) των (THE) αγιων (SACRED)​

When saying pray in the Spirit, maybe he meant pray in tongues.

 

[Rhema]

Sorry Mayflower... just saw this...

many times I have cried out to Jesus, particularly when I feel condemned and need to remember He paid the price for my sin already.

When you feel condemned, just pray to the Father asking forgiveness (believing that you receive).

That's what Jesus died to teach you.

In obedience to Him,
Rhema

 

[Waggles]

When saying pray in the Spirit, maybe he meant pray in tongues.

YEs you got it.

 

[Rhema]

YEs you got it.

Well thank you. (I didn't want to boast.) And to be honest, the topic of tongues is as rife a minefield as any discussion of the Trinity. I never understood why people who have questions about praying in tongues would ask a pastor or Christian who doesn't pray in tongues about it. Just never made sense. Like asking for investment advice from a poor person. (Meaning don't ask me for investment advice.)

God Bless
Rhema

 

[Mayflower]

But isn't the final objective the coming / going to the Father ?

It seems to me that the Jew is trying to get to the Father, the Muslim is trying to get to the Father, even the Buddhist is trying to get to "God" someway or another, but those ways fail. That would explain the first part, I am the way. The ways used by all other humans or religions don't work. The Way of Moses doesn't work. The Way of Mohammad doesn't work. The Way of Buddha or Vishnu or Shinto, those don't work. The Way of Jesus, though, is the Gospel that Jesus taught, and we have specific commands to pray to the Father. His Teachings are Truth, and his teachings bring life - so that we CAN come to the Father, which I why I think we should. Doing anything else isn't The Way we were taught by Him. Doing anything else is following a different voice. My Prayer-Conversations, then, are with the Father. I don't think one can even have an actual real Prayer-Conversation with Jesus. There's not a Jesus here to speak with you. Jesus is gone. He said he was going. And he did.

But I tell you the truth: it is expedient to you that I go. For if I go not, the Paraclete will not come to you: but if I go, I will send him to you.​

(John 16:7 DRB)​

So Jesus isn't here, but the Paraclete was sent in his place. Now I understand a widow talking to her dead husband, ... but the husband does not hear. The husband is gone. My children are still alive, but they all live elsewhere, and I sometimes talk to them when they're not around, but I also know I'm "talking to myself." Jesus said he was going away, and he went. Jesus is not here. He is with us, but he is not here with us.

Because I go to the Father: and whatsoever you shall ask the Father in my name, that will I do: that the Father may be glorified in the Son. If you shall ask me any thing in my name, that I will do.​

(John 14:13-14 DRB)​

Even with Jesus gone, having ascended to the Father, He still commanded that we ask the Father in Jesus name. I believe as with everything, if you do it wrong, it won't work. The whole goal is to "come to the Father."

If ye love me, keep my commandments. And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;​

(John 14:15-16 KJV)​

Flat out... keep my commandments (those of Jesus) and the Comforter will abide with us forever, not Jesus. And a repeated commandment of Jesus was that we pray to the Father. If I go beyond that, I'm going beyond what is written. I don't see any example in the New Testament where someone ever prays to Jesus or even is instructed to pray to Jesus. If you can find a verse, let me know. It's always possible I missed something.


Okay, your text says "committed to me," mine says "entrusted". But the final goal here, again, is that the Son reveals the Father to us so that we may know the Father. Here and now, how does the Son reveal the Father?? I think it's obvious that this means the teachings one finds in the Gospel texts, including numerous verses that say we should obey these teachings.

As opposed to what? The yoke of Christ as opposed to ... the yoke of Judaism, the yoke of the Law. So we learn from Jesus, and the things we learn are... pray to the Father. Sorry, I know it sounds like a broken record, but that's what it says... I can rest in following the specific teachings of Christ when he says... "pray in this manner".


There is a simplicity when dropping all the other complex theological garbage and nonsense - clearing one's mind. If we (metaphorically) go sit in the lap of Jesus as a child, do you think He's going to say anything different from what He's already said in the Sermon on the Mount and the Sermon on the Plain? "Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;"

That's what it means. It means... do that... do those things I'M telling you to do...

To be honest, the concept of praying to Jesus never really crossed my mind. It's just not in the text. It's not in the teachings. If you can show me.... cool.

God bless,
Rhema

PS:

Going back to my key verse,

Praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, and watching thereunto with all perseverance and supplication for all saints;​

(Ephesians 6:18 KJV)​

(Take the Sword...) δια (BY MEANS OF) πασης (ALL) προσευχης (PRAYER) και (AND) δεησεως (PETITION or SUPPLICATION) προσευχομενοι (PRAYING) εν (IN) παντι (ALL) καιρω (OCCASIONS) εν (IN) πνευματι (SPIRIT) και (AND) εις (INTO) αυτο (THIS) τουτο (HEREOF) αγρυπνουντες (BEING ALERT) εν (IN) παση (ALL) προσκαρτερησει (PERSISTENCE) και (AND) δεησει (PRAYERS) περι (WITH REGARDS TO) παντων (ALL) των (THE) αγιων (SACRED)​

When saying pray in the Spirit, maybe he meant pray in tongues.

All through the NT people prayed to Jesus, unless no one ever talked to Him. Because prayer is basically talking to God. People from everywhere came to Christ Jesus for healing, help, to hear Him speak. Jesus Christ is God the Son. So while I pray to my Father, I believe we should talk to Jesus, because He is not "gone." He is alive!!!! Amen. He is alive forever and one day I will be with Him. And then we can ask if He heard my prayers.

 

[Rhema]

People from everywhere came to Christ Jesus for healing, help, to hear Him speak. Jesus Christ is God the Son.

I'm sorry, Mayflower, but nowhere in the Bible is it written "Jesus is God the Son." It has always been written Jesus is the Son of God.

I'm not sure why you wish to get into an argument over the Trinity, but I'll decline. My participation here is to discuss prayer. Has that ended and this thread now become moot?

All through the NT people prayed to Jesus, unless no one ever talked to Him. Because prayer is basically talking to God.

So then you DO believe that Jesus was talking to himself when praying to God?

But no, when people talked to Jesus while he was here on earth, they talked to him like they would have spoken to any other human. NO one would have thought they were praying to Jesus, and you have no Biblical account where anyone ever DID pray to JESUS. If there was an account of someone in the New Testament ever praying to JESUS, you'd have that quoted in an eye-blink. Why do you now feel it is necessary to go beyond what is written?

Is there ANY New Testament scripture that says that JESUS himself hears us from heaven when we talk / speak / pray?
(Maybe I missed something.)

We should also be very careful to not remove words from scripture, yes? About Jesus, the blind man said...

If this man were not of God, he could do nothing.​

(John 9:33 KJV)​

The text does not say, "If this man were not God...."

I believe we should talk to Jesus, because He is not "gone." He is alive!!!!

He is gone from the earth, Mayflower. I never said that Jesus wasn't alive.

And then we can ask if He heard my prayers.

And he will reply in this manner -

And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?​

(Luke 6:46 KJV)​

There is no difference between praying to Jesus and praying to Mary, except that Mary did NOT command you to pray to the Father.

When Christians continue to invent and follow imaginary fantasy doctrines, then the kingdom shall continue to fail. Just look around you. Your church has failed. Why? (Because it did not obey.)

Kindly,
Rhema

 

[Rhema]

When I pray, I pray always to the Father Son and Holy Spirit, for the three are One God.

And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?​

(Luke 6:46 KJV)​

 

[Mayflower]

.
I'm sorry, Mayflower, but nowhere in the Bible is it written "Jesus is God the Son." It has always been written Jesus is the Son of God.

I'm not sure why you wish to get into an argument over the Trinity, but I'll decline. My participation here is to discuss prayer. Has that ended and this thread now become moot?

I think empty arguing accomplishes nothing. There is enough scripture to back up the Trinity if you set out to look it up though. It would make sense for you to only pray to the Father if you did not believe Jesus to be God in bodily form. This is why it is important to know in a discussion like this, because we are going from two completely different mindsets of who Jesus is. If you do not want to discuss the Trinity, that is fine, but I personally believe it is important to understand who Jesus is and who Holy Spirit is, who the Father is, to explore the why of who we pray to. Because yes, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are three different beings, but all are God. Otherwise Jesus wouldn't have needed a virgin birth, would not be living, and could not be sinless.

I pray to:

-Mighty God: Isaiah 9:6-

For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government will be on his shoulders. And he will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

-King and Redeemer: Isaiah 44:6

“This is what the LORD says— Israel’s King and Redeemer, the LORD Almighty: I am the first and I am the last; apart from me there is no God.

John 10:30 "I and the Father are One "

Matthew 1:23
“The virgin will conceive and give birth to a son, and they will call him Immanuel” (which means “God with us”).

Ephesians 4:4-6
There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called to one hope when you were called; one Lord, one faith, one baptism; one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all.

I do not believe it is moot discussion, because I pray to the living God. Three in One.

God bless, Rhema

 

[Mayflower]

And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?​

(Luke 6:46 KJV)​

You do not believe who He says He is. He clearly did through His actions and words.


John 20:28-29

Thomas said to him, “My Lord and my God!” Then Jesus told him, “Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.”

 

[Rhema]

I think empty arguing accomplishes nothing

I wouldn't categorize scripture as empty, that's why I rely upon it and quote it quite often as you can see. I would, though, categorize vain imaginations as empty, and I run across very many Christians who make up stuff all on their own. But yes, I wasn't intending to start an argument or quarrel and later realized that I ought to have said that "the" church is failing, rather than placing a specific onus on your church personally. Sometimes the English colloquial "you" trips me up. But y'all's church is failing. And my view is that if something's failing, then something's wrong. If something isn't wrong, then it wouldn't be failing.

There is enough scripture to back up the Trinity if you set out to look it up though.

Without doubt you believe that. But I would gently suggest that you yourself do some research into Orthodox or Historical Trinitarianism. This is why I refuse to engage in any such discussion with someone who hasn't attended seminary, although, my apologies that I have not specifically asked if you've attended seminary or not. ((Maybe ? )) Most self-identified Trinitarians today are, in truth, modified Modalists. I do have a friend who is rather interested in discussing the Trinity, and presents a solid case that such a doctrine did not develop until around the year 275-325 AD. It's a topic I let him handle.

It would make sense for you to only pray to the Father if you did not believe Jesus to be God in bodily form.

It would make sense for us to only pray to the Father because that's what the Son of God commanded. I am flabbergasted that anyone would think to make up his or her own rules that directly contradict the Teachings of Jesus.

I personally believe it is important to understand who Jesus is and who Holy Spirit is, who the Father is, to explore the why of who we pray to.

I would agree that it's important to understand who Jesus is and who the Father and the role of the Holy Spirit, but there's no need to explore the "who" of whom we are to pray. The Father sent the Son who commanded us to pray to the Father, and in a specific way (or mode). As I've said to both you and @JerryfromMass, show me the scripture that teaches us to pray to Jesus. It's that simple.

Because yes, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are three different beings, but all are God.

And yet the Doctrine of the Trinity is extremely clear that God is only ONE being, not three. Three persons, but only one being. This is why I've suggested that you pursue a more in-depth study of the Doctrine of the Trinity. Your pastor might let your use of the word 'being" slide, but such truly does not align with the actual orthodox or historical Doctrine of the Trinity. The doctrine is both complex and complicated, and I've found most "laymen" (no insult inteded) to, quite honestly, not know what they're talking about. This is why I don't want to pursue such a discussion. I've had dozens of such discussions that only create hard feelings when the person with whom I'm speaking finally realizes that they are not Trinitarian, but Modalist. (There's no upside to such a discussion.)

Otherwise Jesus wouldn't have needed a virgin birth, would not be living, and could not be sinless.

(Please see my note to Sue D. about Pelagius.)

I pray to:

-Mighty God: Isaiah 9:6-

For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government will be on his shoulders. And he will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

Nothing in that verse instructs one to pray to anyone. Technically the child is called ELGIBHOR, (Strong's number H410 H1368).

Compare with the Septuagint, the Greek OT used by the early church:

For a child is born to us, and a son is given to us, whose government is upon his shoulder: and his name is called the Messenger of great counsel: for I will bring peace upon the princes, and health to him.​

(Isaiah 9:6 Brenton translation of the LXX)​

I pray to:

-King and Redeemer: Isaiah 44:6

“This is what the LORD says— Israel’s King and Redeemer, the LORD Almighty: I am the first and I am the last; apart from me there is no God.

Indeed you may. There is nothing in this verse about Jesus or even the Messiah for that matter. Apart from YHWH there is no God. (Think about it.)

I pray to:

John 10:30 "I and the Father are One "

One what ?

Surely you don't remove these verses from your Bible....

That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me. And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:​

(John 17:21-22 KJV)​

Are we not to be ONE as Jesus and the Father are ONE ?? That's exactly what the text says, "That they (we) all may be one..." Whatever oneness that the believer is to have with the Father is the same oneness that Jesus proclaimed to others.

And I'm sure you won't be praying to me.

Read Again: that they may be one, even as we are one:

Yes, the Father and Jesus are one, as we are to be one.

(Don't get mad at me.... believe what the text actually says.)

I pray to:

Matthew 1:23
“The virgin will conceive and give birth to a son, and they will call him Immanuel” (which means “God with us”).

Yes indeed, "God with us." And was not God with them (the Hebrews) at Mt. Sinai ? Was God with the High Priest at the time of Jesus? ( I personally doubt that.)

Look at the text again: "they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us." NOT being interpreted as "He is God".

I pray to:

Ephesians 4:4-6
There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called to one hope when you were called; one Lord, one faith, one baptism; one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all.

Notice the text doesn't not say, "one Lord Jesus". But also notice that the text does not say, "one Lord and one Father who are both God of all".

I do not believe it is moot discussion, because I pray to the living God. Three in One.

Well then if you don't believe it is a moot discussion, then you should be eager to study the orthodox / historical Doctrine of the Trinity.

Is there an existing thread about the Trinity on this forum? I know of other forums where innumerable threads on the Trinity are argued back and forth, to the point where the Admin and the moderators no longer allow new threads to be created.

If you find one, let me know.

Thanks,
Rhema

PS:

You do not believe who He says He is.

Why do Christians always turn nasty and hateful, thinking they know what other people believe?
( I forgive you.)

YES, I do believe who He says He is. And I also believe what HE taught, and furthermore, I obey it without creating other fantasy imaginations about the Sacred things.

PPS:

John 20:28-29 Thomas said to him, “My Lord and my God!”

But that's not what Thomas said. Thomas is recorded as saying this: ο κυριος μου και ο θεος μου

That does not translate as, "My Lord God." That's an interpretation.

 

[Mayflower]

I wouldn't categorize scripture as empty, that's why I rely upon it and quote it quite often as you can see. I would, though, categorize vain imaginations as empty, and I run across very many Christians who make up stuff all on their own. But yes, I wasn't intending to start an argument or quarrel and later realized that I ought to have said that "the" church is failing, rather than placing a specific onus on your church personally. Sometimes the English colloquial "you" trips me up. But y'all's church is failing. And my view is that if something's failing, then something's wrong. If something isn't wrong, then it wouldn't be failing.


Without doubt you believe that. But I would gently suggest that you yourself do some research into Orthodox or Historical Trinitarianism. This is why I refuse to engage in any such discussion with someone who hasn't attended seminary, although, my apologies that I have not specifically asked if you've attended seminary or not. ((Maybe ? )) Most self-identified Trinitarians today are, in truth, modified Modalists. I do have a friend who is rather interested in discussing the Trinity, and presents a solid case that such a doctrine did not develop until around the year 275-325 AD. It's a topic I let him handle.


It would make sense for us to only pray to the Father because that's what the Son of God commanded. I am flabbergasted that anyone would think to make up his or her own rules that directly contradict the Teachings of Jesus.


I would agree that it's important to understand who Jesus is and who the Father and the role of the Holy Spirit, but there's no need to explore the "who" of whom we are to pray. The Father sent the Son who commanded us to pray to the Father, and in a specific way (or mode). As I've said to both you and @JerryfromMass, show me the scripture that teaches us to pray to Jesus. It's that simple.


And yet the Doctrine of the Trinity is extremely clear that God is only ONE being, not three. Three persons, but only one being. This is why I've suggested that you pursue a more in-depth study of the Doctrine of the Trinity. Your pastor might let your use of the word 'being" slide, but such truly does not align with the actual orthodox or historical Doctrine of the Trinity. The doctrine is both complex and complicated, and I've found most "laymen" (no insult inteded) to, quite honestly, not know what they're talking about. This is why I don't want to pursue such a discussion. I've had dozens of such discussions that only create hard feelings when the person with whom I'm speaking finally realizes that they are not Trinitarian, but Modalist. (There's no upside to such a discussion.)


(Please see my note to Sue D. about Pelagius.)


Nothing in that verse instructs one to pray to anyone. Technically the child is called ELGIBHOR, (Strong's number H410 H1368).

Compare with the Septuagint, the Greek OT used by the early church:

For a child is born to us, and a son is given to us, whose government is upon his shoulder: and his name is called the Messenger of great counsel: for I will bring peace upon the princes, and health to him.​

(Isaiah 9:6 Brenton translation of the LXX)​

Indeed you may. There is nothing in this verse about Jesus or even the Messiah for that matter. Apart from YHWH there is no God. (Think about it.)


One what ?

Surely you don't remove these verses from your Bible....

That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me. And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:​

(John 17:21-22 KJV)​

Are we not to be ONE as Jesus and the Father are ONE ?? That's exactly what the text says, "That they (we) all may be one..." Whatever oneness that the believer is to have with the Father is the same oneness that Jesus proclaimed to others.

And I'm sure you won't be praying to me.

Read Again: that they may be one, even as we are one:

Yes, the Father and Jesus are one, as we are to be one.

(Don't get mad at me.... believe what the text actually says.)


Yes indeed, "God with us." And was not God with them (the Hebrews) at Mt. Sinai ? Was God with the High Priest at the time of Jesus? ( I personally doubt that.)

Look at the text again: "they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us." NOT being interpreted as "He is God".


Notice the text doesn't not say, "one Lord Jesus". But also notice that the text does not say, "one Lord and one Father who are both God of all".


Well then if you don't believe it is a moot discussion, then you should be eager to study the orthodox / historical Doctrine of the Trinity.

Is there an existing thread about the Trinity on this forum? I know of other forums where innumerable threads on the Trinity are argued back and forth, to the point where the Admin and the moderators no longer allow new threads to be created.

If you find one, let me know.

Thanks,
Rhema

PS:

Why do Christians always turn nasty and hateful, thinking they know what other people believe?
( I forgive you.)

YES, I do believe who He says He is. And I also believe what HE taught, and furthermore, I obey it without creating other fantasy imaginations about the Sacred things.

PPS:

But that's not what Thomas said. Thomas is recorded as saying this: ο κυριος μου και ο θεος μου

That does not translate as, "My Lord God." That's an interpretation.

I do not think we are going to agree in this subject. If anyone else wants to discuss, this is fine.

"Trust in the Lord with all your heart, lean not on your own understanding; In all your ways acknowledge Him, and He will make Your paths straight." Proverbs 3:5-6

 

[Rhema]

I do not think we are going to agree in this subject.

I know... your mind is made up. No room for discussion. Text be damned. There are a lot of Frank Sinatra Christians... (they do it their way).

"Trust in the Lord with all your heart, lean not on your own understanding; In all your ways acknowledge Him, and He will make Your paths straight." Proverbs 3:5-6

You quote this as if it proves something against me? I quote it back to you. The "your own understanding" is all the fanciful ideas that one personally comes up with (or any Priest or Pope, Pastor or Theologian for that matter) which cannot be absolutely proven within the Teachings that Jesus gave us.

I am as one with the Father as Jesus is one with the Father. That's exactly what the text says. I'm not going to depart from what is written to lean to MY own understanding.

If anyone else wants to discuss, this is fine.

Let's first establish what discussion is - and I'd like to quote from the forward to (Jewish Monotheism and Christian Trinitarian Doctrine: A Dialogue by Pinchas Lapide and Jurgen Moltmann ) written by Leonard Swidler.

”At the first level interreligious dialogue is a dialogue, that is, a conversation on a common subject between two or more persons with differing views, the primary purpose of which is for each participant to learn from the other so that he or she can change. In the religious sphere in the past, we came together to discuss with those differing with us, for example, Christians with Jews, either to defeat an opponent, or to learn about an opponent so as to more effectively deal with him. If we faced each other at all, it was in confrontation - sometimes more openly polemically, sometimes more subtly so, but always with the ultimate goal of defeating the other, because we were convinced we alone had the absolute truth.​

​

But that is not what dialogue is. Stated negatively, dialogue is not debate. In dialogue each partner must listen to the other as openly and sympathetically as he or she can in an attempt to understand the other’s position as precisely and, as it were, as much from within, as possible. Such an attitude automatically includes the assumption that at any point we might find the partner’s position so persuasive that if we would act with integrity, we would have to change our own position accordingly. That means that there is a risk in dialogue: we might have to change, and change can be disturbing. But of course that is the point of dialogue - change and growth. We enter into dialogue so that we can learn, change, and grow, not so we can force change on the other, as one hopes to do in debate - a hope which is realized in inverse proportion to the frequency and ferocity with which debate is entered into. On the other hand, because in dialogue each partner comes with the intention of learning and changing him- or herself, one’s partner in fact will also change. Thus the alleged goal of debate, and much more, is accomplished far more effectively by dialogue.” (pp. 7-8)​

Leonard Swidler - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Now unless it is specifically against this forum's rules, the OP is typically granted leeway to change the topic if necessary, but it would confuse people to see a thread titled "prayer" and find an ongoing dialogue about the Trinity.

If you truly wish a discussion (dialogue) about the Trinity, are you willing to open a thread on it?

Please let me know if you do.

Kindly,
Rhema

PS: I see you're reluctant to mention if you've attended a seminary or not. You shouldn't be. We're not any "better" than you. However, I'm sure your church made sure to hire a pastor who did attend a seminary.

PPS: Now may I ask if you have an affiliation with a denomination?

 

[Mayflower]

@Rhema I think you would be much happier for a seminary student starting the topic on the Trinity. Jesus Deity is in the statement of faith here, so I am sure there are many here who would gladly go deeper with you. I glean here and there and mainly follow threads. I am not interested in deep dialogue online or debating "tones".

I just wanted to establish your view on the Trinity, because that does effect how you pray. I think I clearly established where I stand too in that matter.

My affiliation is non denominational. I was born and raised "Baptist", became a Christian at fifteen, but have in the past couple years come to believe the signs gifts are still living and active for today. I am glad you know the difference between dialogue and debate.

I mention Proverbs 3:5-6, because it is important to not just have head knowledge, but heart knowledge. You mention seminary and Greek. This is all good. But God did not make the Bible hard to understand. He made it where even a child can understand. The Bible is way past, more then theology. Prayer is part of relationship.

----

Now for this discussion, I think the better way would be focusing on these questions now that we established the different views on who to pray to.


1) where do you pray?

2) what do you pray? We talked about this some, but specifically what type of things do y'all pray about. What should the majority of prayer be if anything or is it an overall balance of praise/request/etc

3) how do you pray? Like I was always taught eyes closed/hands folded for less distraction/reverence. But I also will just walk down the street, eyes open, praising God or laying in bed. Very rarely am I on my knees, but I think that is a very reverential way to pray.

4) when do you pray? Morning, noon, and night for me!!!! As it says in the Word of God.

5) why do you pray?

 

[Mayflower]

For number 3, I wanted to say
I think praying unceasingly takes all postures. I pray everywhere. But I believe those times just getting down on my knees, eyes closed and head bowed in reverence, I believe posture speaks praise also. In worship (singing), I do not believe that one should just be standing there like a tree. I do not judge the heart of one doing so, but God gave His all to us. We need to give our all to Him.

I hardly pray on my knees, but when I do it is out of reverence.

Number 1, normally it is in the car or in my bed. I pray everywhere I go, but I take this scripture in consideration, before the Lord's prayer:

Matthew 6:5-6 “And when you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the street corners to be seen by others. Truly I tell you, they have received their reward in full. 6 But when you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray to your Father, who is unseen. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you."

I am okay praying out loud though.

I'll answer the others, but give others some time to respond.

And btw, I didn't attend seminary, but was at a Christian college for a semester for music education. Sadly wasn't able to take a Bible class that first semester with scholarship, then couldn't continue at the time. I would have really loved that, but we had required things we had to go to since it was a Christian college on campus, so it felt like seminary a little bit. So with God, you don't have to be a theologian to love Him. He is just that good to love.