Rev 21:2 New Jerusalem

B-A-C · Mar 12, 2014

NoHype said:
Did you know brethren, that Assyria, Egypt, and Israel are each going to be one-third in His future Kingdom upon this earth?

Gen 15:18; On that day the LORD made a covenant with Abram, saying, "To your descendants I have given this land, From the river of Egypt as far as the great river, the river Euphrates:

Exod 23:31; "I will fix your boundary from the Red Sea to the sea of the Philistines, and from the wilderness to the River Euphrates; for I will deliver the inhabitants of the land into your hand, and you will drive them out before you.

Deut 11:24; "Every place on which the sole of your foot treads shall be yours; your border will be from the wilderness to Lebanon, and from the river, the river Euphrates, as far as the western sea.

Israel has never really "owned" this area (mostly modern day Iraq). But some take the verses above as a prophecy that they will.
Others take it as a prophecy that this is where the New Jerusalem will reside on the earth.

NoHype · Mar 12, 2014

james1523 said:
It does not necessarily mean that these places were established on earth in the time of Adam and Eve. It probably means they were established on earth at the time that the book of Genesis was written (by Moses or someone else), as the author used recognizable names for the places. What these places were called and if anyone lived there during Adam and Eves lifetime is unknown.

That is a traditional view you say, but then God made the connection there with those lands and His River, even though Moses was given to write down that early history. So did Moses live back in Adam's time? No. So how did Moses know about God's Garden of Eden back then? Simple, God told Moses what to write.

The idea that Moses was relying on his own knowledge of his days to pass on that early history of the earth in Genesis is a secularist view, not a Biblical one that aligns with God's Word.

I don't think we can assume that the new heaven and new earth will be the same as the old.

2 Peter 3:10 says the old earth will be melted up and:
Rev 21:1 Then I saw "a new heaven and a new earth," for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and there was no longer any sea.

If you go to the Hebrew and Greek, you'll find those words for 'new' can also mean fresh, rebuild. But God didn't leave us guessing, because the example of what earth will be the new earth is also shown in 2 Peter 3 by the previous destructions God did upon the earth that Peter covered there. Peter covered three world ages in that chapter, the new heavens and a new earth being the final one. In the previous God did not completely destroy the earth; He made it tremble, brought waters of a flood upon it to wipe man's works off it, but He did not fully destroy the whole earth turning it into some asteroid belt.

In the Psalms God said the earth is forever (Ps.78:69). Psalms 46 shows that melting is about cleansing the surface of the earth causing desolations upon the earth involving man, as the idea of the "elements" per the Greek does also in 2 Peter 3:10.

Most just haven't studied to the Biblical depth to understand that the new heavens and a new earth creation is actually a renewal, not a total destruction of this earth and creating of a whole brand new one. This is one of the matters Peter said in 2 Pet.3 about Paul's writings that many wrest with, it being hard to understand.

The new earth will be quite different to the old earth, there will be no more sea - it will be only dry land. Therefore there will be no more rivers (Tigris, Euphrates etc won't exist). This further confirms that the river in Revelation is symbolic and not literal. The river in Rev 22:1 is not plain old water. It is a river of the "water of life", which is symbolic of the Holy Spirit. This is the same "water of life" that Jesus talks about in John 7:38:
"He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water."

Although our Lord Jesus used that idea of living waters as a metaphor some, it does not mean God's River is only a metaphor, just as the word 'temple' was used for His Body while the idea of real physical temples exist too.

And no more sea does not mean no more rivers, for the sea is referring to the idea of oceans-seas, not rivers which are inland. The majority of the land mass on earth today is covered with water making up today's oceans. That's the part that is going to change, that water going somewhere else. God's River out from His Throne on earth will water and cleanse the rivers upon the earth in that future time, for that description of His River cleansing polluted, tainted waters upon the earth is also given in the Ezekiel 47 chapter. If you had properly understood the events of Genesis 1:2-9 and Jeremiah 4:23-28, you would have understood this matter.

B-A-C · Mar 12, 2014

B-A-C said:
Gen 15:18; On that day the LORD made a covenant with Abram, saying, "To your descendants I have given this land, From the river of Egypt as far as the great river, the river Euphrates:

Exod 23:31; "I will fix your boundary from the Red Sea to the sea of the Philistines, and from the wilderness to the River Euphrates; for I will deliver the inhabitants of the land into your hand, and you will drive them out before you.

Deut 11:24; "Every place on which the sole of your foot treads shall be yours; your border will be from the wilderness to Lebanon, and from the river, the river Euphrates, as far as the western sea.

Israel has never really "owned" this area (mostly modern day Iraq). But some take the verses above as a prophecy that they will.
Others take it as a prophecy that this is where the New Jerusalem will reside on the earth.

Yet another thought occurs to me.
If Abraham is the father of the non-Jewish Palestinians as well as the Jews, (via Ishmael and Isaac)
Wouldn't you be able to include Syria, Lebanon, Jordan, and possibly part of Egypt (Gaza?)

NoHype · Mar 13, 2014

B-A-C said:
Gen 15:18; On that day the LORD made a covenant with Abram, saying, "To your descendants I have given this land, From the river of Egypt as far as the great river, the river Euphrates:

Exod 23:31; "I will fix your boundary from the Red Sea to the sea of the Philistines, and from the wilderness to the River Euphrates; for I will deliver the inhabitants of the land into your hand, and you will drive them out before you.

Deut 11:24; "Every place on which the sole of your foot treads shall be yours; your border will be from the wilderness to Lebanon, and from the river, the river Euphrates, as far as the western sea.

Israel has never really "owned" this area (mostly modern day Iraq). But some take the verses above as a prophecy that they will.
Others take it as a prophecy that this is where the New Jerusalem will reside on the earth.

2 Sam 8:3
3 David smote also Hadadezer, the son of Rehob, king of Zobah, as he went to recover his border at the river Euphrates.
(KJV)

Israel of old under David did possess the land all the way to the border of Euphrates at one time. After Solomon is when they began to lose possession and control of those lands God ordained to Israel. Yet God promised it to Abraham and his seed forever (Gen.13:15).

This is the final layout of land inheritance to Israel:

Ezek 47:13-21
13 Thus saith the Lord GOD; This shall be the border, whereby ye shall inherit the land according to the twelve tribes of Israel: Joseph shall have two portions.
14 And ye shall inherit it, one as well as another: concerning the which I lifted up mine hand to give it unto your fathers: and this land shall fall unto you for inheritance.
15 And this shall be the border of the land toward the north side, from the great sea, the way of Hethlon, as men go to Zedad;
16 Hamath, Berothah, Sibraim, which is between the border of Damascus and the border of Hamath; Hazar-hatticon, which is by the coast of Hauran.
17 And the border from the sea shall be Hazar-enan, the border of Damascus, and the north northward, and the border of Hamath. And this is the north side.
18 And the east side ye shall measure from Hauran, and from Damascus, and from Gilead, and from the land of Israel by Jordan, from the border unto the east sea. And this is the east side.
19 And the south side southward, from Tamar even to the waters of strife in Kadesh, the river to the great sea. And this is the south side southward.
20 The west side also shall be the great sea from the border, till a man come over against Hamath. This is the west side.
21 So shall ye divide this land unto you according to the tribes of Israel.
(KJV)

Men's ideas that God's Kingdom will be up in the clouds with no existence of nations on the earth is a pipe dream by those who refuse to stay in His Word, for He has already shown what Israel's inheritances will be in that future time, and where His Abode will be, on this earth. The heavenly cube of Revelation is to be a 1500 mile cube extending up from that area.

james1523 · Mar 14, 2014

NoHype said:
If you go to the Hebrew and Greek, you'll find those words for 'new' can also mean fresh, rebuild. But God didn't leave us guessing, because the example of what earth will be the new earth is also shown in 2 Peter 3 by the previous destructions God did upon the earth that Peter covered there. Peter covered three world ages in that chapter, the new heavens and a new earth being the final one. In the previous God did not completely destroy the earth; He made it tremble, brought waters of a flood upon it to wipe man's works off it, but He did not fully destroy the whole earth turning it into some asteroid belt.

In the Psalms God said the earth is forever (Ps.78:69). Psalms 46 shows that melting is about cleansing the surface of the earth causing desolations upon the earth involving man, as the idea of the "elements" per the Greek does also in 2 Peter 3:10.

The very idea that there will be no more oceans or seas indicates catastrophic change to the surface of the Earth. Even a kind of change to the surface of the Earth will mean that the rivers and features you describe will no longer exist.

Your view is based on the assumption that the old things will remain. But the Bible says God will make all things new (Rev 21:5). The key words are "all things". There will be no Euphrates or Tigris river, there will be no such place as the 'land of Israel'. By the time the New Jerusalem descends to Earth, it will all be completely different.

I can show once and for all that the things spoken of in Revelation are symbolic and not literal as you claim.
Revelation 1:1 says: The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:

Signified means made known by symbol and figure, the things which must come to pass. "Signify", in Greek σημαίνειν

Verse 1 says Revelation is a book of signs and symbols. Therefore we should not interpret it literally.

NoHype · Mar 14, 2014

james1523 said:
The very idea that there will be no more oceans or seas indicates catastrophic change to the surface of the Earth. Even a kind of change to the surface of the Earth will mean that the rivers and features you describe will no longer exist.

That is only partially correct. Your first part aligns with God's Word, your latter statement does not. You've simply gone too far away from God's Word in trying to apply how the 'new' earth is meant in His Word, and I think you do that more because of following a doctrinal tradition of man instead of staying in God's Word to allow God to define it for you.

In Ezek.47 God shows Ezekiel how His River will flow out from the sanctuary to feed other waters upon the earth, and wherever it comes in contact with those other waters they are healed. That revelation in itself is showing a difference between waters of His River that heals, and waters upon the earth like existing rivers that need healing. So it is a very definite description of the difference between healing waters that none of us have yet seen upon this earth vs. polluted waters of rivers that we do see today. Even with that Ezek.47 description are included specific locales in the middle east, and how that healing will also make the healed waters plentiful with fish.

Your view is based on the assumption that the old things will remain. But the Bible says God will make all things new (Rev 21:5). The key words are "all things". There will be no Euphrates or Tigris river, there will be no such place as the 'land of Israel'. By the time the New Jerusalem descends to Earth, it will all be completely different.

My view comes straight from God's Word of how the future glory will manifest upon this earth, and how the twelve tribes of Israel will have their inheritances in the future land of Israel per Ezekiel 47-48, including the holy city which will then be called "The LORD is there."

But what you're relying on is an idea outside of God's descriptions in His Word about it. You reveal you don't actually believe those Scriptures in the simplicity they are written in. Apostle Paul explained this also with a short coverage of it at the end of Hebrews 12...

Heb 12:25-29
25 See that ye refuse not Him That speaketh. For if they escaped not who refused Him That spake on earth, much more shall not we escape, if we turn away from Him That speaketh from heaven:
26 Whose voice then shook the earth: but now He hath promised, saying, "Yet once more I shake not the earth only, but also heaven."
27 And this word, "Yet once more", signifieth the removing of those things that are shaken, as of things that are made, that those things which cannot be shaken may remain.
28 Wherefore we receiving a kingdom which cannot be moved, let us have grace, whereby we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear:
29 For our God is a consuming fire.
(KJV)

Eric E Stahl · Mar 14, 2014

B-A-C · Mar 14, 2014

Eric E Stahl said:
After the thousand year long kingdom age, The New Jerusalem will come down and God will dwell on earth with men. Notice there will be no more sea or death, or sinners on earth.

Hmmm... not sure about that. After the 1000 year reign, there will be a war with Satan and his "very large" army. ( Rev 20:7-10; )
And even after that when the New Jerusalem comes down from heaven, there will be unsaved outside the gates. ( Rev 22:15-17; )

james1523 · Mar 14, 2014

B-A-C said:
Hmmm... not sure about that. After the 1000 year reign, there will be a war with Satan and his "very large" army. ( Rev 20:7-10; )
And even after that when the New Jerusalem comes down from heaven, there will be unsaved outside the gates. ( Rev 22:15-17; )

Yes outside the gates, in the Lake of Fire:

Rev 21:8 But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars—they will be consigned to the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death.”

The ones outside the gates but not in the lake of fire, are "the nations":

Rev 21:24 "The nations will walk by its light, and the kings of the earth will bring their splendor into it."

If Christians are in the New Jerusalem with God, and the sinners are in the lake of fire, who are these nations?

Firstly we can see that the New Jerusalem is the source of light: Rev 21:23 The city does not need the sun or the moon to shine on it, for the glory of God gives it light, and the Lamb is its lamp.
This is the Glory of God which shines out of all the believers - it is not the physical city itself that is giving light.
The city itself is transparent which allows the light to shine through: Rev 21:11 It shone with the glory of God, and its brilliance was like that of a very precious jewel, like a jasper, clear as crystal

So the New Jerusalem is all believers in their transfigured and glorified state shining God's light out of them and this light is transmitting through the transparent walls of the city.
A billion or so Christians with light shining out of them is what gives light to the surrounding Earth, and there is no need for any sun (or electricity).
Jesus gave us a glimpse of this light at His transfiguration:
Matt 17 After six days Jesus took with him Peter, James and John the brother of James, and led them up a high mountain by themselves.2 There he was transfigured before them. His face shone like the sun, and his clothes became as white as the light.3 Just then there appeared before them Moses and Elijah, talking with Jesus.

So who are the nations? Firstly, they are not Christians, because Christians will be within the city and will be the source of light on the Earth. And as the Bible reveals, the Christians will be ruling over these nations (2 Tim 2:12, and other verses). Instead, these nations are outside of the city and walk by the light.

Isaiah 9:2 The people who walk in darkness Will see a great light; Those who live in a dark land, The light will shine on them.

These nations are not regenerated. These are the citizens of the millennial kingdom, in which the overcoming believers will be the kings (Rev 20:4). A part of these people will be deceived and rebel against Christ (and the Christian rulers) at the end of the 1000 year reign. This is the war you mentioned in Revelation 20. The rest, will be transferred into the New Earth, and comprise the nations that live outside of the New Jerusalem, on the New Earth. They will be maintained to live forever in their created state by the healing of the leaves of the tree of life (Rev 22:2) (whereas Christians on the other hand, will receive immortal bodies, like Christ's). For them there will be no more death (Rev 22:4), and they will not be in darkness as they dwell by the light of the New Jerusalem (Rev 21:24). These peoples are the ones who are blessed by the Father and inherit the kingdom of God:
Matt 25:34 ""Then the King will say to those on his right, 'Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world."

So God's plan ultimately is to have many "sons of God", Christians with immortal and transfigured beings, like Christ's own body, ruling over nations of created (yet not regenerated) peoples. From these, will be great light shining out of them. In an environment where there is no more death, no sin, no tears, nothing negative.

How different is what the Scripture truly teaches from the idea that Christians will merely be floating in clouds in Heaven?

B-A-C · Mar 28, 2014

B-A-C said:
Gen 15:18; On that day the LORD made a covenant with Abram, saying, "To your descendants I have given this land, From the river of Egypt as far as the great river, the river Euphrates:

Exod 23:31; "I will fix your boundary from the Red Sea to the sea of the Philistines, and from the wilderness to the River Euphrates; for I will deliver the inhabitants of the land into your hand, and you will drive them out before you.

Deut 11:24; "Every place on which the sole of your foot treads shall be yours; your border will be from the wilderness to Lebanon, and from the river, the river Euphrates, as far as the western sea.

Israel has never really "owned" this area (mostly modern day Iraq). But some take the verses above as a prophecy that they will.
Others take it as a prophecy that this is where the New Jerusalem will reside on the earth.

I had a revelation today. These lands weren't promised to Israel, they were promised the Abrahams descendents.
If Isaac and Jacob are the patriarchs of the Jews (Israel) and Ishmael is the patriarch of the Arabs (The current day Arab league consists of 22 countries)
Syria also used to be a member. One interesting thing about the Arab League is that they were formed without 3 years of Israel becoming a nation.

NoHype · Mar 28, 2014

B-A-C said:
Hmmm... not sure about that. After the 1000 year reign, there will be a war with Satan and his "very large" army. ( Rev 20:7-10; )
And even after that when the New Jerusalem comes down from heaven, there will be unsaved outside the gates. ( Rev 22:15-17; )

The Rev.22:14-15 passage is actually a timing prior to the lake of fire and prior to Satan being loosed after the thousand years of Rev.20. Not all events in Revelation are given in chronological order.

NoHype · Mar 28, 2014

B-A-C said:
I had a revelation today. These lands weren't promised to Israel, they were promised the Abrahams descendents.
If Isaac and Jacob are the patriarchs of the Jews (Israel) and Ishmael is the patriarch of the Arabs (The current day Arab league consists of 22 countries)
Syria also used to be a member. One interesting thing about the Arab League is that they were formed without 3 years of Israel becoming a nation.

What God gave to Abraham involved His Birthright (not man's). That was then passed to Isaac, and then Jacob, which is one of the reasons why God is called The God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. Israel is the new name God gave Jacob to represent that Birthright which includes The Gospel of Jesus Christ. The nations around Israel will still exist, but Israel's inheritance of land is laid out specifically in the Ezekiel 47 through 48 chapters.

God's Birthright after Jacob went to Joseph, and then to Joseph's two sons, with the younger Ephraim in place of Joseph (1 Chronicles 5).

If you know your Bible history, Ephraim became the head of the ten tribes when God split Israel into two kingdoms, and his kingdom was called "the kingdom of Israel" while the southern kingdom at Judea was called "the kingdom of Judah" (Jews). Those of the ten tribes were never known as Jews. That title referred to those of the southern kingdom of Judah, the word Jew coming from the name Judah.

God's Birthright falling upon Ephraim is another revealing that God preserved the ten scattered tribes under Ephraim in The Gospel where they would migrate to, and would be separate from the rejection of the unbelieving Jews. The story of Joseph being separated from his brethren is a parallel to this history about the ten tribes. God has not lost them though the majority in the world have.

It is this matter of God's Birthright that causes ire within many of the Arab nations, since they believe the Birthright should be upon their father Ishmael, him being the firstborn son of Abraham. But God ordained His Birthright to go to Isaac, since He promised the son would come through Abraham and Sarah, not Abraham and Hagar. What Sarah did with going against God's will by giving Abraham her maid Hagar to have child because Sarah was old, could not disannul what God had pronounced beforehand.

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