You misunderstood me, I wasn't talking in the spiritual sense. The thief died physically, we did not, we are still here alive and hopefully well.
Sanctification vs Justification
- Thread starter B-A-C
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Thiscrosshurts
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I understand ,I simply don't see things the same way.I have a slightly different view of life and death.
To me God's realm and how he sees physical reality is ALL that matters and this passing world is just a shadow.
Scripture claims I died in Adam and I was raised with Christ.I am not trying or waiting to get to heaven I seek to see things from his point of view.
Romans 5:17 For if, by the trespass of the one man, death reigned through that one man, how much more will those who receive God's abundant provision of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man, Jesus Christ!
Righteousness is a gift that reigns through one man not many.
If you were referring to the flesh body that houses God on this planet then it would certainly benefit new converts to be dispatched post haste while they are umm...fresh.
And maybe children before they reach the age of consent whatever that might be.
papajim, the doctrine you follow has deceived you. It has corrupted your mind from the simplicity that is in Christ, 2Cor 11:3.
This doctrine you follow says that if you don't sin (as in perfect obedience to the law) then you not under the law, but if you do sin then your under the law.
That doctrine is a distortion.
Lets see what God says:
Rom 3:19
whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law,
Are Christians under the law?
Answer: No. Rom 8:2, Rom 10:4, Gal 5:18, Gal 3:25, 1Tim 1:9.
Rom 4:15
where there is no law there is no transgression. Sin.
Rom 3:28
a man is justified by faith apart from the deeds of the law.
And as Christians are not under the law, and yet righteous by faith, then Satan the accuser cannot charge us with sin.
Rom 8:33
Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.
Hence we see that Christians have "ceased from sin" (1Pet 4:1), once they receive Christ.
But the doctrine you follow keeps it's followers under the law for righteousness. and when you transgress it (and you do) you then make yourself a transgressor/sinner.
Gal 2:18
For if I build again the things which I destroyed (righteousness by works of the law), I make myself a transgressor/Sinner
Repent and believe in Jesus.
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Thank you for your concern Barny but,
I do believe in Jesus, so my faith is accounted for righteousness, and because my faith is accounted for righteousness I have overcome the world, and since I have overcome the world through my belief in Jesus I cannot sin, and if I cannot sin, why do you ask me to repent?
I find your post hypocritical and obsurd.
I ask you to repent, and follow Jesus
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Gal_5:4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.
Gal_2:21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.
Rom_9:32 Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;
Heb_10:29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
Gal_2:21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.
Rom_9:32 Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;
Heb_10:29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
I have already repented and follow Jesus.
You claim you have done likewise.
But we differ in that you add to the gospel of grace your claim that perfect obedience to the law in our physical behavior is needed as evidence of our "imparted" righteousness and salvation. Without this evidence of perfect obedience to the law you say we are of the world.
I understand that the doctrine you follow is a lukewarm mix of grace and works of the law. God does not accept this, Rev 3:16, Rom 11:6.
Please note the scriptures provided by spirit1st.
As I have said Barny, It is not my obedience that I want, you are having a hard time with this, it is my obedience (which is disobedience) that brings me back under the law. It is not the same thing as His obedience working in me. I need only to put faith in Jesus and He will give me His obedience. I like your enthusiasim in the imputed righteousnness of Jesus, and I have said, that I agree with you in this, but your understanding is incomplete. If I understand your gospel and I do as I also understand the scriptures you have given me and also agree with them with the exception of your understanding of them, why can't you understand that I believe in the imputed righteousness of Jesus and can still tell you that there is more? How would I know that unless I understood your part of the Gospel? Why didn't Paul says I am dead daily instead of "I die daily?" If Paul was already dead as you claim, why does He then have to die daily again, again, and again, daily?
You have to understand that I agree with the imputed righteousness of Jesus and stop trying to convince me of something I already understand and agree with. It is the way you have put scripture together that has led you down a wrong path.
You missunderstand 1Jn.5 because you have left other parts of the Gospel. If I cannot use Jesus as a guidline for my life, I do not then believe in Jesus, because the Gospel messeage is about Jesus and my exceptence of Him.
Why does the scripture say to walk as He walked if He is not my pattern to live? Jesus lived His entire life by faith, as we are also to live our entire lives by faith, through His faith He overcame, and by our faith we overcome. He is the firstfruit and the 144,000 are the firstfruits that follow the Lamb wherever He goes. Barny don't believe that the 144,000 is the Jewish nation because that will leave you out of the truth.
Barny God has pursued you to continue this converstation, so that you can continue to learn, He has sent me here to share the missing part of the Gospel with you. I believe God see's something special in you and He has led me to you to share the missing part of the Gospel with you, so you can share it with others, but He can't give it to you until you allow Him to tear down the walls of unbelief. You refuse to believe that you can live in this world without sin ,a gift already given to you, and with doubt like this how can God teach you? You look to others for confirmation to support your unbelief so that you don't have to change. God has freed you from sin in Jesus, contimplate this, and believe it.
Barny if you would allow me to share it with you and not insist that you have everything in the Gospel already, you would be greatly blessed. Saul thought he had all of the truth as well but when Jesus came to him, He shared the missing part of the gospel with him, and he became Paul. The difference is that Saul was coming from a different side of the law than you are. You have to allow God to open up your mind, be open minded, it is only through a willingness to learn that you will learn.
If you would allow me to, I can show you how to put the puzzle pieces together to come up with the big picture, so that you can see it clearly, but only if you would stop debating and listen. Ask questions to learn, not to tear down truth. If I see that you understand the truth and then refuse it, I can let it go and so will you. I asked God to take this from me because I hate confrontation and will do anything to avoid it. I am here for the Lord and only for Him and that puts me in a position I would rather not be in. But it is His will, and His will has become my will. We all have to continue to learn each and every day, our learning builds our faith and our faith makes us whole in Christ.
Since I have studied the scriptures with you I have become even more grounded in what I believe, and I have learned even more thanks to your questions that has made me think. Please don't insist that I have nothing to share with you so that you can learn. Don't fall into the Laodicean message that says "I am rich in need of nothing."
"I understand that the doctrine you follow is a lukewarm mix of grace and works of the law. God does not accept this, Rev 3:16, Rom 11:6."
It is your understanding that is amiss.
You also misunderstand the mixing of grace and works of the law.
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You say that when you perfectly obey the law then your not under it, and when you disobey it then your under the law.
This is an unusual twist of thinking that is not supported in scripture.
As I showed before, whatever the law says it says to those under it, Rom 3:19.
You place yourself under the law as you judge righteousness by whether we perfectly keep it or not. This is exactly how the Pharisees judged righteousness. It's works of the law.
And then the error doctrine you follow makes distorted claims that in perfectly obeying the law, then you are not under it.
God differs from the error doctrine you follow in that He says that if you bring yourself under the law then you make yourself a sinner, Gal 2:18.
And as I said before, the doctrine you follow adds more to the true gospel of grace.
God gave us His example of salvation by grace through the thief on the cross. But you say "there is more" and add to this a false gospel of works of the law for those who do not die immediately like that thief on the cross.
Perhaps you should reconsider what Paul was talking about in 1Cor 15:31. He's speaking about the persecution he faced in his ministry. See also Rom 8:36, 1Cor 4:9, Acts 20:24.
The doctrine you follow is a lukewarm mix of grace and works of the law.
Now all of us have to be careful what we preach, as james 3 warns.
But note the example James 3 uses in giving this warning. The example specifically describes the doctrine you follow.
James 3:1-
My brethren, let not many of you become teachers, knowing that we shall receive a stricter judgment. For we all stumble in many things. If anyone does not stumble in word, he is a perfect man, able also to bridle the whole body. Indeed, we put bits in horses’ mouths that they may obey us, and we turn their whole body. Look also at ships: although they are so large and are driven by fierce winds, they are turned by a very small rudder wherever the pilot desires. 5Even so the tongue is a little member and boasts great things.See how great a forest a little fire kindles! And the tongue is a fire, a world of iniquity. The tongue is so set among our members that it defiles the whole body, and sets on fire the course of nature; and it is set on fire by hell. For every kind of beast and bird, of reptile and creature of the sea, is tamed and has been tamed by mankind. But no man can tame the tongue. It is an unruly evil, full of deadly poison. With it we bless (Love) our God and Father, and with it we curse (judge/condemn through the law) men, who have been made in the similitude of God. Out of the same mouth proceed blessing (Love/Grace) and cursing (judgement/condemnation). My brethren, these things ought not to be so. Does a spring send forth fresh water (Grace) and bitter (judgement/condemnation through the law) from the same opening?
We cannot mix grace with works of the law. And James 3 warns against such lukewarm mixing that you follow.
Rom 11:6
And if by grace, then it is no longer of works; otherwise grace is no longer grace. But if it is of works, it is no longer grace; otherwise work is no longer work.
SBNmediamember
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Hi. I'm so confused about this post. What are we trying to establish here? Of course, it's my first forum ever, so I suppose I'll remain in the dark about a lot of things for awhile. Please bear with me.
Hi SBNmediamember,
And welcome to Talk Jesus.
You'll find a lot to learn on forums. It will test your patience at times and of course it will make you search the scriptures and pray for understanding of them.
Blogs can often diverge into issues related to the topic, hence they do not strictly follow the topic only.
In this blog we have 2 schools of thought being presented.
Some here are Seventh Day Adventists and they preach the gospel of grace mixed with a doctrine that requires perfect obedience to the law as evidence of one's righteousness and salvation.
On the other side of the ring are those, like myself, who do not add the law to grace. We confirm scriptures that our faith is counted for righteousness, Rom 4:5, and that we are justified by faith without the deeds of the law, Rom 3:28.
By all means ask any questions if you find discussions getting too heavy. Like you I also found I was in the dark about a lot of things when I first joined in on forums. And I think you'll find most of us here have learnt much through forum discussions as they encourage us to search the scriptures and pray for understanding.
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There are LOTS of good posters here and great mods ! Many times if the poster does not give a answer or answer you can understand well ? You can get a hold of a mod too explain things too you ! Most mods here Really Love the LORD and Love serving the Body or Christ and our LORD JESUS CHRIST!
They have no problem and really like Helping others , that Why they have given themselves over to this site too some degree !
I really like the Mods here ! I count them true Brothers and Sisters in our LORD JESUS! They seem to me ? To have very good spiritual insight , More than in most churches i found?
That Only comes from the Holy Ghost !
For such a big site , they have many good posts to learn from i think !
Just be a part of it and post or ask whatever you would like to know More about ! Read the scriptures posted , Ask the Holy Ghost with Your mouth or even in Your Mind and He Will Reveal the truth to you , if you truly want to know the Truth ? Which i would think You do ! The truth is Always given to share with others for our LORD Glory and Honor !
They have no problem and really like Helping others , that Why they have given themselves over to this site too some degree !
I really like the Mods here ! I count them true Brothers and Sisters in our LORD JESUS! They seem to me ? To have very good spiritual insight , More than in most churches i found?
That Only comes from the Holy Ghost !
For such a big site , they have many good posts to learn from i think !
Just be a part of it and post or ask whatever you would like to know More about ! Read the scriptures posted , Ask the Holy Ghost with Your mouth or even in Your Mind and He Will Reveal the truth to you , if you truly want to know the Truth ? Which i would think You do ! The truth is Always given to share with others for our LORD Glory and Honor !
Many of the works taught by churches are Not the LORD works ! But works which causes the religion or group or cult to grow ! Not the true church or the Kingdom of God ! Salvation is how the Kingdom grows !
Joh_6:29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.
I Love this scripture! Revealing it not Us , but our LORD! Then we cannot Ever get high minded !
1Co_3:6 I have planted, Apollos watered; but God gave the increase.
Jesus gets All the Glory , Because HE alone does it All ! He just uses those who are willing !
When we think ? We know it All ? We are in trouble ! But of course if we just knew a little ? We would be raising the Dead , healing the Sick , casting out devils and Much More !
Even if we are obeying and doing these things ? That Does not make us more than others or great in His church or body ! But I believe He expects us to at least walk in that Power !
After all ! Jesus said with His Own Mouth ? We Could do GREATER WORKS!
Which I believe in my little mind , it revealed ! They touched the hem of the LORDS robe and were healed ! Yet walked in Peters Shadow and were healed ! some may not see this as a greater work ? but that Ok ! Because i am not even 100% sure it is ?
Bless all here who truly LOVE our LORD and only want to preach Truth , with the Correct understanding ! Lovingly in our LORD gary
Joh_6:29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.
I Love this scripture! Revealing it not Us , but our LORD! Then we cannot Ever get high minded !
1Co_3:6 I have planted, Apollos watered; but God gave the increase.
Jesus gets All the Glory , Because HE alone does it All ! He just uses those who are willing !
When we think ? We know it All ? We are in trouble ! But of course if we just knew a little ? We would be raising the Dead , healing the Sick , casting out devils and Much More !
Even if we are obeying and doing these things ? That Does not make us more than others or great in His church or body ! But I believe He expects us to at least walk in that Power !
After all ! Jesus said with His Own Mouth ? We Could do GREATER WORKS!
Which I believe in my little mind , it revealed ! They touched the hem of the LORDS robe and were healed ! Yet walked in Peters Shadow and were healed ! some may not see this as a greater work ? but that Ok ! Because i am not even 100% sure it is ?
Bless all here who truly LOVE our LORD and only want to preach Truth , with the Correct understanding ! Lovingly in our LORD gary
