Speaking in Tongues and Gifts of the Spirit

[joestue]

Hi B-A-C,

I have a paper I've written explaining how I understand the gifts. Here's the link of you are interested in it.

https://1drv.ms/w/c/508d7442960d89ec/EeyJDZZCdI0ggFCSHgAAAAABGZ45oK47b0UA4vQ1PoJidw

It seems to me, you are suggesting that paul is saying that when you mature, you have no need of the gifts. I tend to agree. But it doesnt mean they cease for everyone else.

Yet we have some groups under the Christian banner that claim people can "learn" these gifts and use them whenever.
I know there's at least one delusional person on here who claims this.

Who is that?

I know people in real life who have been hurt by experiences they had in a local church that has gone the way of charismatic chaos and "learn to prophesy" meeting groups.

 

[Butch5]

It seems to me, you are suggesting that paul is saying that when you mature, you have no need of the gifts. I tend to agree. But it doesnt mean they cease for everyone else.

Who is that?

I know people in real life who have been hurt by experiences they had in a local church that has gone the way of charismatic chaos and "learn to prophesy" meeting groups.

That's not what I'm suggesting. What I'm suggesting is that when the message that God was giving, the Gospel, was mature or complete they would cease. I believe that happened before the apostles were all gone. Paul told the Ephesian elders that he had given them the whole council of God. Jude tells his readers to contend for the faith that was "once" handed down to the saints. It seems to me that this indicates that the faith was complete at this point. As I see it the gifts that were given to confirm the message would no longer be necessary. As we look at early church history we read of some writers saying that there was only still a remnant of the gifts around in their day. Thus indicating that the gifts were fading out.

 

[Christ4Ever]

Does anyone believe Speaking in Tongues and Gifts of the Spirit are still available today?

Dear Brother,
Yes. As the Holy Spirit wills.
Just as it was during the day of the Apostles.
I haven't read any of the replies so far, but it won't surprise me to hear "yes, no, maybe so". Just as many have said in other thread here on TJ when the subject has been brought up.

With the Love of Christ Jesus.
YBIC
Nick
\o/
<><

 

[MedicBravo]

I believe in the gifts, but I totally 100% agree with this statement.

There are some churches ( one big mega-church in California especially ) that have seminars, and classes, and in some cases charge $1,000.00 or more to "teach" you what your gift is and how to use it.
I don't see this in the Bible anywhere, in fact I see the opposite.

Acts 8:17; Then they began laying their hands on them, and they were receiving the Holy Spirit.
Acts 8:18; Now when Simon saw that the Spirit was bestowed through the laying on of the apostles' hands, he offered them money,
Acts 8:19; saying, "Give this authority to me as well, so that everyone on whom I lay my hands may receive the Holy Spirit."
Acts 8:20; But Peter said to him, "May your silver perish with you, because you thought you could obtain the gift of God with money!
Acts 8:21; "You have no part or portion in this matter, for your heart is not right before God.
Acts 8:22; "Therefore repent of this wickedness of yours, and pray the Lord that, if possible, the intention of your heart may be forgiven you.

I don't see anywhere in the Bible where someone "taught" someone how to know what their gift was and how to use it.

1Cor 12:6; There are varieties of effects, but the same God who works all things in all persons.
1Cor 12:7; But to each one is given the manifestation of the Spirit for the common good.
1Cor 12:8; For to one is given the word of wisdom through the Spirit, and to another the word of knowledge according to the same Spirit;
1Cor 12:9; to another faith by the same Spirit, and to another gifts of healing by the one Spirit,
1Cor 12:10; and to another the effecting of miracles, and to another prophecy, and to another the distinguishing of spirits, to another various kinds of tongues, and to another the interpretation of tongues.
1Cor 12:11; But one and the same Spirit works all these things, distributing to each one individually just as He wills.

... "as He wills". You don't get to pick your gift. Going to the "healing" class doesn't mean you have the gift of healing. God chooses which gift(s) you have.

I am also sure that if any of the gifts are still in effect, ( wisdom, knowledge, faith ) then all of the gifts are still in effect.
Every saved person has at least one of these gifts.

It seems some of these gifts are rare, but what I'm finding even more rare these days is...

Gal 5:22; But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness,
Gal 5:23; gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law.

Some people use this one single verse to build a doctrine on.

1Cor 13:8; Love never fails; but if there are gifts of prophecy, they will be done away; if there are tongues, they will cease; if there is knowledge, it will be done away.
1Cor 13:13 But now faith, hope, love, these three will remain; but the greatest of these is love.

I wonder if that means that joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, gentleness, and self-control have ceased?
I'm beginning to wonder if the fruit of Spirit is still in effect. ( passive/aggressive sarcasm )

Matt 24:12; "Because lawlessness is increased, most people's love will grow cold.
Luke 18:8; "I tell you that He will bring about justice for them quickly. However, when the Son of Man comes, will He find faith on the earth?"

Gifts cannot be taught.
Mankind can NOT be taught nor teach Gifts from God. Simple.

 

[joestue]

I wonder if that means that joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, gentleness, and self-control have ceased?

For many, they have.

 

[joestue]

...

This is from your paper:

Another problem with that interpretation is the grammar. The "perfect" is an adjective in the neuter gender in the Greek language, It’s being used as a substantive which means it is being used as a noun. When an adjective is being used as a substantive and in the neuter gender it usually refers to a "Thing" not a person. Additionally, where in Scripture is Jesus "Ever" referred to as a "THAT"? If Paul had said, when He who is perfect is come, there would probably be grounds for an argument, but not with "That".

Now in regard to "When". Some suggest that "The Perfect" is the canon of Scripture, Paul is not speaking of the canon of Scripture in his letter, he was speaking of the gifts. In particular, prophecy tongues, and knowledge, however, it was prophecy and knowledge that he said were in part. What was the prophecy and knowledge in regard to? Was it not the Gospel, the good news?

Isaiah 28:9-13 ( KJV )
Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts.
For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little:
For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people.
[To whom he said, This is the rest wherewith ye may cause the weary to rest; and this is the refreshing: yet they would not hear.
But the word of the LORD was unto them precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little; that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken.

So, it seems when the maturity would come, the fullness of the Gospel message, that which is in part (prophecy and knowledge) would no longer be necessary. This fits with Paul's examples, "The Faith" maturing over a period of time, which is what we see when we look at Scripture. The apostles matured in "The faith" as they ministered, they did not have everything revealed to them at once, It was a process of maturing. Notice Jesus' words to the apostles,

John 16:12-13 ( KJV )
I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now
Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will show you things to come.

What in the NT cannon, are things Jesus couldn't teach his disciples yet?

"The apostles matured in "The faith" as they ministered, they did not have everything revealed to them at once, It was a process of maturing"

I agree with you here. so i want to ask you the question: if we have the bible today, and if its complete enough for everyone in all circumstances, and can understand it without prophetic help, and if the gifts have ceased....

why then have any christian community at all?

 

[MedicBravo]

This is from your paper:



What in the NT cannon, are things Jesus couldn't teach his disciples yet?

"The apostles matured in "The faith" as they ministered, they did not have everything revealed to them at once, It was a process of maturing"

I agree with you here. so i want to ask you the question: if we have the bible today, and if its complete enough for everyone in all circumstances, and can understand it without prophetic help, and if the gifts have ceased....

why then have any christian community at all?

A lot of people don't understand it. Many are hateful towards it b/c of one or a few parts they don't like.
They're so biased and hardened against God and the Bible the odds of changing one's mind or even finding someone open to it is rare.
Too many have been taught "Sources?" or x, y, or z isn't true or real.

The Bible in all it's versions and translations is by default easy to read aside from the people, places, and other things with some crazy names.
I'm still learning and I can only count myself as a solid Christian for what 12 years now?
Secular evidence back the Bible and it is legit despite it not being in it.
The Bible nor any book could contain EVERY SINGLE detail.
What is recorded, generally, in historical books are the more important things.

 

[joestue]

That's not what I'm suggesting. What I'm suggesting is that when the message that God was giving, the Gospel, was mature or complete they would cease. I believe that happened before the apostles were all gone. Paul told the Ephesian elders that he had given them the whole council of God. Jude tells his readers to contend for the faith that was "once" handed down to the saints. It seems to me that this indicates that the faith was complete at this point. As I see it the gifts that were given to confirm the message would no longer be necessary. As we look at early church history we read of some writers saying that there was only still a remnant of the gifts around in their day. Thus indicating that the gifts were fading out.

A lot of people don't understand it. Many are hateful towards it b/c of one or a few parts they don't like.
They're so biased and hardened against God and the Bible the odds of changing one's mind or even finding someone open to it is rare.
Too many have been taught "Sources?" or x, y, or z isn't true or real.

The Bible in all it's versions and translations is by default easy to read aside from the people, places, and other things with some crazy names.
I'm still learning and I can only count myself as a solid Christian for what 12 years now?
Secular evidence back the Bible and it is legit despite it not being in it.
The Bible nor any book could contain EVERY SINGLE detail.
What is recorded, generally, in historical books are the more important things.

Plenty of things happen to people that they cant handle, they go insane, kill themselves, others, etc..

What was so dangerous about the things Jesus was speaking of that his own disciples couldn't hear it?

Because i find nothing dangerous in the nt cannon compared to whats in the Ot scriptures that children memorize...

 

[Butch5]

This is from your paper:



What in the NT cannon, are things Jesus couldn't teach his disciples yet?

"The apostles matured in "The faith" as they ministered, they did not have everything revealed to them at once, It was a process of maturing"

I agree with you here. so i want to ask you the question: if we have the bible today, and if its complete enough for everyone in all circumstances, and can understand it without prophetic help, and if the gifts have ceased....

why then have any christian community at all?

I'm not sure what you're asking. How would the ceasing of the gifts affect the necessity of the Christiam community?

 

[Butch5]

Plenty of things happen to people that they cant handle, they go insane, kill themselves, others, etc..

What was so dangerous about the things Jesus was speaking of that his own disciples couldn't hear it?

Because i find nothing dangerous in the nt cannon compared to whats in the Ot scriptures that children memorize...

Why does it have to be dangerous? Ine can't learn algebra before they learn basic math. What if they had to go through certain experiences before they would understand things Jesus had said.

John 12:12-16
On the next day much people that were come to the feast, when they heard that Jesus was coming to Jerusalem, Took branches of palm trees, and went forth to meet him, and cried, Hosanna: Blessed is the King of Israel that cometh in the name of the Lord. And Jesus, when he had found a young ass, sat thereon; as it is written, Fear not, daughter of Sion: behold, thy King cometh, sitting on an ass’s colt. These things understood not his disciples at the first: but when Jesus was glorified, then remembered they that these things were written of him, and that they had done these things unto him.

The Holy Bible: King James Version. 2009. Electronic Edition of the 1900 Authorized Version. Bellingham, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc.

 

[Rockerduck]

Everyone that has gifts of the Spirit know they have it, however, everyone that doesn't have gifts of the Spirit do not believe anyone does.

 

[MedicBravo]

Everyone that has gifts of the Spirit know they have it, however, everyone that doesn't have gifts of the Spirit do not believe anyone does.

What?
One can subjectively believe without backing by evidence and it's true and those of who know they don't are wrong?

 

[Rockerduck]

What?
One can subjectively believe without backing by evidence and it's true and those of who know they don't are wrong?

I asked in one bible study I was in if any had heard the Holy Spirit speak to them. 3 out of 20 did. So the next question was, do any of you have prophetic dreams. 4 did. So, 7 believed each other and talked among themselves and the others were indifferent. Question: have you ever asked anyone if they have heard the Holy Spirit speak to them or have prophetic dreams? You'd be surprised.

 

[joestue]

How would the ceasing of the gifts affect the necessity of the Christiam community?

Because there is nothing for them to do. You might as well ask a secular therapist for guidance.
Whats the point of prayer if God no longer gives you guidance? No longer heals, no longer provides correction? Etc.

 

[Butch5]

Because there is nothing for them to do. You might as well ask a secular therapist for guidance.
Whats the point of prayer if God no longer gives you guidance?

There a difference between God answering prayer and the 1st century gifts.

 

[Butch5]

I asked in one bible study I was in if any had heard the Holy Spirit speak to them. 3 out of 20 did. So the next question was, do any of you have prophetic dreams. 4 did. So, 7 believed each other and talked among themselves and the others were indifferent. Question: have you ever asked anyone if they have heard the Holy Spirit speak to them or have prophetic dreams? You'd be surprised.

But what people think isn't the issue. It's a simple matter of looking at what the Scriptures say. People believe all kinds of stuff.

 

[MercyWalked-in]

Does anyone believe Speaking in Tongues and Gifts of the Spirit are still available today?

On the topic of speaking in tongue’s I would recommend reading through 1Corinthians chapter 12 through chapter 14…..

From my best interpretation of scripture ,In 1 Corinthians 12:30, it says, "Do all have gifts of healing? Do all speak in tongues? Do all interpret?" This verse acknowledges that not all believers will speak in tongues or have the same spiritual gifts. The Holy Spirit distributes gifts as He determines for the common good of the body of Christ (1 Corinthians 12:11). While speaking in tongues is one of the spiritual gifts mentioned in the Bible, it is not a gift that all believers will necessarily receive. Each believer is uniquely gifted by the Holy Spirit for the edification of the church and the advancement of God's kingdom.
In 1 Corinthians 14:5, it says, "I would like every one of you to speak in tongues, but I would rather have you prophesy. The one who prophesies is greater than the one who speaks in tongues, unless someone interprets, so that the church may be edified." While some believe that the gift of tongues may have ceased or diminished in significance after the early church period, others believe that the gift of tongues, along with other spiritual gifts, may still be present and active in the church today. If you are speaking in tongues and it is edifying you and building up your faith, it could be a personal experience of the Holy Spirit's work in your life. It is important to seek guidance and discernment from God's Word and the community of believers to understand the purpose and significance of this gift in your life.
In Acts 2:1-4, on the day of Pentecost, the Holy Spirit descended upon the disciples, and they began speaking in other tongues as the Spirit enabled them. This event marked the beginning of the church and the outpouring of the Holy Spirit, including the gift of speaking in tongues. Throughout the book of Acts, there are instances where believers received the gift of tongues as a sign of the Holy Spirit's presence and power, such as in Acts 10:44-46 and Acts 19:6. Additionally, in 1 Corinthians 14, the apostle Paul provides instructions for the use of tongues in the church, indicating that the gift was still present and relevant in the early church. These biblical examples suggest that the gift of tongues has not necessarily ceased but may continue to be a manifestation of the Holy Spirit's work in the lives of believers.

Regarding that, I personally speak in tongues but believe not all will. As far as for if tongues have ceased I don’t believe that. If tongues have ceased then all the other gifts have ceased as well. The gifts evidently still exist because we still have men given the gift to be preachers. I also believe prophets and etc.. still exist in our present world. But it is all by Gods appointment and then you say what about the the workers of miracles. I believe that still exist but is being used by the devil. Many people have the gift to heal burns cuts and etc but have used that gift for the devil. Much like a person God has gifted with a great voice but they choose to sing in a bar instead of a church. I believe todays fortune tellers and etc were gifted by God to be prophets and such but the devil is getting all the glory of the gift.

Anyway , that’s just my humble opinion based on my best interpretation of scripture , I’m not saying I’m right so please don’t take me wrong

 

[Charlie24]

I asked in one bible study I was in if any had heard the Holy Spirit speak to them. 3 out of 20 did. So the next question was, do any of you have prophetic dreams. 4 did. So, 7 believed each other and talked among themselves and the others were indifferent. Question: have you ever asked anyone if they have heard the Holy Spirit speak to them or have prophetic dreams? You'd be surprised.

I can only speak for myself. I have never heard the audible voice of God, or heard voices in my head.

I have many times had the thought "you know that is wrong, don't do it" or "this person needs help, etc."

I believe they are thoughts given by the Holy Spirit through the conscience or whatever, but not voices in any way.

 

[joestue]

There a difference between God answering prayer and the 1st century gifts.

Not much difference.

The public does not accept miracles these days, so God doesnt do them.

On reddit the question was asked "when is the last time you saw a move of the Spirit in church".

None said they have ever seen one. Other said the same, but have outside the church. I was not surprised by this

 

[Rockerduck]

I can only speak for myself. I have never heard the audible voice of God, or heard voices in my head.

I have many times had the thought "you know that is wrong, don't do it" or "this person needs help, etc."

I believe they are thoughts given by the Holy Spirit through the conscience or whatever, but not voices in any way.

Satan can interject thoughts into our heads, with God's permission of course, but its to fine tune our judgement, what is of God or not. . The Holy Spirit has a male voice that internally audible. You will never forget what the Holy Spirit says. I can quote Him 30 yrs later.