The church vs LGBQT community

[KittyLinda]

Hi Kitty, there's a lot in other posts of yours that you take a bit of stick about but which I can really relate to and I am behind you and agree with what you say. But on this one, sorry, but I'm not.

This is one subject that I struggle to agree with God on. If two of the same sex love each other, where's the problem? Well the problem is that despite what I might think, God doesn't like it. I don't know why and I'm not proposing even for a second to lecture him on morality. For me if God doesn't like it, I don't like it. Simple as.

If that makes me a homophobe, I'm a homophobe. I actually do like and love and want to reach out to the the gay community and tell them that Jesus loves them, loves them to bits, died for them, wants to draw them into his is care and and protection, just as He did with me xxx

And how are you going to reach to the gay community ? Because I can tell you what happened to me. My mother did not talk to me for nearly 8 years, after my marriage. I mean what kind of a cult that will make a mother reject her own child.

Also, I do not have to tell you that me and my ex kept all the rules that people here think is far more important that Jesus himself. We did not have sex and waited until we married. I guess that does not matter that we both were Christian women?

When I first read the bible, I also thought God does not like it, but it did not feel right, because that is who I am, and he created me this way, so I reached to these Christian meet up groups for gays/lesbians, and I had my training. I say 'training' because that was not what I used to believe. Also that is where I met my ex. It did not last long after my family basically told me day and night that I am not saved and will go to hell. I left Christianly all together for awhile and well I can't say they helped me much finding God again.

 

[KittyLinda]

You bring up the world of animals. Do you believe that people are simply part of the animal world? That we - people - are Not created special? We are created to be able to make choices.

No, I do not believe that, but that is something you will also hear. I am not defending homosexuality. I am saying they do not want to be homosexuals contrary to what they feel inside. They feel 'gay' they act on it. That is all. Are you attracted to men? if yes, then that is who you are.

 

[KittyLinda]

If I may interject another thought -- two men cannot produce a child together -- biologically impossible // two women cannot produce a child together -- biologically impossible. A man / woman combination Can produce a child together.

There is Always 'choice' involved with having a sexually intimate relationship with another person -- always -- saying "no" is perfectly okay.

Are you saved through childbearing? I think it is biblical. I'm a mother. I have a child and I did not even ask God for this gift. I never imagined being a mother because for a long time I only dated women. But, fundamental Christianity/the purity religionists think even my daughter was born of sin, since me and my bf do not have legal marriage papers yet.

 

[B-A-C]

They feel 'gay' they act on it. That is all. Are you attracted to men? if yes, then that is who you are.

Hmmm... some people feel like lying, some people feel like stealing, some people feel like murdering. Just because someone "acts" on how they feel doesn't make it right.
Morality has very little to do with feelings.

 

[B-A-C]

But, fundamental Christianity/the purity religionists think even my daughter was born of sin, since me and my bf do not have legal marriage papers yet.

What fundamental, purity, religionists think doesn't matter. What God thinks does. He calls this fornication.

 

[KittyLinda]

What fundamental, purity, religionists think doesn't matter. What God thinks does. He calls this fornication.

Not necessary. Committed relationship is also in itself a marriage in the eye of the lord. I believe God is gray.

 

[KittyLinda]

Hmmm... some people feel like lying, some people feel like stealing, some people feel like murdering. Just because someone "acts" on how they feel doesn't make it right.
Morality has very little to do with feelings.

You are right,. It does not make it always right, expect that you know little of morality, if you actually believe a gay relationship is like these other acts. By the way, you're really hurting a lot of people when you say things like this.

 

[B-A-C]

John 4:17; The woman answered and said, “I have no husband.” Jesus *said to her, “You have correctly said, ‘I have no husband’;
John 4:18; for you have had five husbands, and the one whom you now have is not your husband; this you have said truly.”

Jesus didn't consider "shacking up" the same as marriage. I wonder why "the one whom you have now" is not your husband.

 

[KittyLinda]

John 4:17; The woman answered and said, “I have no husband.” Jesus *said to her, “You have correctly said, ‘I have no husband’;
John 4:18; for you have had five husbands, and the one whom you now have is not your husband; this you have said truly.”

Jesus didn't consider "shacking up" the same as marriage. I wonder why "the one whom you have now" is not your husband.

I do not know all the answers, but I know for a fact that God is love and he is merciful.

 

[Sue D.]

@KittyLinda -- yes, God Is love and He is merciful -- but He Also gives us guidelines to follow. Morality / ethics. No one 'knows all the answers' Or Has all the answers -- that's not the point. The Point is reading God's Word and following it.

You've commented about a same-sex relationship? and living with a guy. So -- you and the guy had the baby together. Which means you're doing a lot of 'living' of a sexual nature Without God's blessing.

God is very black and white. He Did provide mankind with a means of salvation. You believe a 'committed relationship' is a marriage in itself in the eyes of the Lord. A 'committed' relationship -- moving in together -- having sex and getting pregnant you feel is okay with God? Then why did He bother to unite Adam and Eve in marriage. "leaving father and mother and coming together to be 'one flesh'.. God joined them together in Person. He was their Father.

Just because Society is okay with same-sex 'unions' does Not make it okay.

Maybe part of this 'problem' is that people are making their Private lives Public. Coming out of those closets. No one but 'you' and God should know what's going on 'behind closed doors'. And the person who is 'behind the closed door' should Only be someone of the opposite sex who you're married to.

Years ago -- the very firth forum I was ever on -- Yahoo Answers. I was Most concerned about young teens who felt they were 'gay' / Lesbian. And what led me to be concerned is that many years Before -- I was involved in a church's prison ministry. Once a month a group of us would go to women's prison facility to mentor them. They were all within 6 months of release and talking with us was helping them ease into life on the outside. At the orientation -- we were told that lesbianism was Not allowed, but that every so often some of the women would make a request during chapel time to visit the ladies' room. It was discovered that they would be making out in the ladies room. So -- only one was allowed in at a time. And we were Also told to Not try to 'cure' them by talking with them about it. They had counselors on staff for that. The 'point' is that even prison officials recognized that it wasn't 'natural' even in a prison / jail environment. People obviously Had committed sins / broken the law and homosexuality was Still 'not condoned'.

The reason for bringing up young teens -- there's a changing / adjusting of hormones during those years. Sometimes there Will be 'strange feelings' with teens. That's especially when parents need to sit down with young teens and encourage them to learn how to be Friends -- to study together -- get good grades -- be involved with active sports. That they Can feel free to talk about their inner / emotional feelings -- but encourage the Other Positive activities. There were so many kids who were questioning 'how' he/ she looks at me. What does that Mean? Is he/ she 'gay' lesbian? Teens should Not have that as their focus. And parents Should be guiding those young teens in Group activities. Know who they are chumming with.

There were a few times when my older daughter and her boyfriend would be 'somewhere' in the house. So -- all the light were out in the livingroom -- so I opened the door / turned on the lights and, of course, that's where they were -- being a little Too close. So -- did say a word about That -- but went to see what was on TV and watch some with them. They'd been making out a bit.

I've also learned that -- after a few dates -- guys expect to get oral sex. The gals don't like it -- but they want to 'keep the guys interest'. No guy is worth a gals loosing her self-respect.

Acknowledge 'chemistry' between young people -- and encourage learning how to Be a Friend. Not just a convenient sexual partner.

 

[B-A-C]

You are right,. It does not make it always right, expect that you know little of morality, if you actually believe a gay relationship is like these other acts. By the way, you're really hurting a lot of people when you say things like this.

God doesn't call stealing or even murder an abomination, however He does call homosexuality an abomination. So I guess you're right, it's not like those other acts.

Lev 18:22; You shall not lie with a male as one lies with a female; it is an abomination

1Cor 6:9; Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals,
1Cor 6:10; nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God

Being a thief, adulterer, or fornicator is just as bad as being homosexual, but none of these people "will inherit the kingdom of God".

Do you think God is "really hurting a lot of people" when He says "things like this"?

Paul also compares murderers and liars with homosexuals.

1Tim 1:9; realizing the fact that law is not made for a righteous person, but for those who are lawless and rebellious, for the ungodly and sinners, for the unholy and profane, for those who kill their fathers or mothers, for murderers
1Tim 1:10; and immoral men and homosexuals and kidnappers and liars and perjurers, and whatever else is contrary to sound teaching,

Should we be concerned with "hurting a lot of people"'s feelings? Or should we be concerned that they will literally burn in hell in anguish for trillions upon trillions upon trillions of years?
Which of these two things do you think will hurt them more?

Rom 1:25; For they exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen.
Rom 1:26; For this reason God gave them over to degrading passions; for their women exchanged the natural function for that which is unnatural,
Rom 1:27; and in the same way also the men abandoned the natural function of the woman and burned in their desire toward one another, men with men committing indecent acts and receiving in their own persons the due penalty of their error.
Rom 1:32; and although they know the ordinance of God, that those who practice such things are worthy of death, not only those who do the same, but also those who give hearty approval to those who practice them.

Even merely approving of others doing it makes you just as guilty.

Lev 20:13; If there is a man who lies with a male as those who lie with a woman, both of them have committed a detestable act; they shall surely be put to death. Their bloodguiltiness is upon them.

Deut 22:5; “A woman shall not wear man’s clothing, nor shall a man put on a woman’s clothing; for whoever does these things is an abomination to the Lord your God.

 

[KittyLinda]

@KittyLinda -- yes, God Is love and He is merciful -- but He Also gives us guidelines to follow. Morality / ethics. No one 'knows all the answers' Or Has all the answers -- that's not the point. The Point is reading God's Word and following it.

You've commented about a same-sex relationship? and living with a guy. So -- you and the guy had the baby together. Which means you're doing a lot of 'living' of a sexual nature Without God's blessing.

God is very black and white. He Did provide mankind with a means of salvation. You believe a 'committed relationship' is a marriage in itself in the eyes of the Lord. A 'committed' relationship -- moving in together -- having sex and getting pregnant you feel is okay with God? Then why did He bother to unite Adam and Eve in marriage. "leaving father and mother and coming together to be 'one flesh'.. God joined them together in Person. He was their Father.

Just because Society is okay with same-sex 'unions' does Not make it okay.

Maybe part of this 'problem' is that people are making their Private lives Public. Coming out of those closets. No one but 'you' and God should know what's going on 'behind closed doors'. And the person who is 'behind the closed door' should Only be someone of the opposite sex who you're married to.

Years ago -- the very firth forum I was ever on -- Yahoo Answers. I was Most concerned about young teens who felt they were 'gay' / Lesbian. And what led me to be concerned is that many years Before -- I was involved in a church's prison ministry. Once a month a group of us would go to women's prison facility to mentor them. They were all within 6 months of release and talking with us was helping them ease into life on the outside. At the orientation -- we were told that lesbianism was Not allowed, but that every so often some of the women would make a request during chapel time to visit the ladies' room. It was discovered that they would be making out in the ladies room. So -- only one was allowed in at a time. And we were Also told to Not try to 'cure' them by talking with them about it. They had counselors on staff for that. The 'point' is that even prison officials recognized that it wasn't 'natural' even in a prison / jail environment. People obviously Had committed sins / broken the law and homosexuality was Still 'not condoned'.

The reason for bringing up young teens -- there's a changing / adjusting of hormones during those years. Sometimes there Will be 'strange feelings' with teens. That's especially when parents need to sit down with young teens and encourage them to learn how to be Friends -- to study together -- get good grades -- be involved with active sports. That they Can feel free to talk about their inner / emotional feelings -- but encourage the Other Positive activities. There were so many kids who were questioning 'how' he/ she looks at me. What does that Mean? Is he/ she 'gay' lesbian? Teens should Not have that as their focus. And parents Should be guiding those young teens in Group activities. Know who they are chumming with.

There were a few times when my older daughter and her boyfriend would be 'somewhere' in the house. So -- all the light were out in the livingroom -- so I opened the door / turned on the lights and, of course, that's where they were -- being a little Too close. So -- did say a word about That -- but went to see what was on TV and watch some with them. They'd been making out a bit.

I've also learned that -- after a few dates -- guys expect to get oral sex. The gals don't like it -- but they want to 'keep the guys interest'. No guy is worth a gals loosing her self-respect.

Acknowledge 'chemistry' between young people -- and encourage learning how to Be a Friend. Not just a convenient sexual partner.

I do not think you know what is going on in my life. I do not enjoy sinning or not following God's word. I was not Christian, but now I am. I actually only became a Christian this year after a major crisis, and I am also not with my partner anymore. He dumped me for a month now, because I told him we can't have sex or live together anymore. I'll be honest. I am actually so very angry at God and the whole Christian community.

I probably should not beat others for my current situation. I actually do not believe half of the things I posted lately here, and it is just my anger. I actually wished to move on, but my bf is not stepping out of my life at all. I am actually thinking these days about maybe kidnapping my child and running away to Canada or another country. I am devastated. Sooner or later legal matters will arise that I am not ready to deal with any of this.

 

[KittyLinda]

God doesn't call stealing or even murder an abomination, however He does call homosexuality an abomination. So I guess you're right, it's not like those other acts.

Lev 18:22; You shall not lie with a male as one lies with a female; it is an abomination

1Cor 6:9; Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals,
1Cor 6:10; nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God

Being a thief, adulterer, or fornicator is just as bad as being homosexual, but none of these people "will inherit the kingdom of God".

Do you think God is "really hurting a lot of people" when He says "things like this"?

Paul also compares murderers and liars with homosexuals.

1Tim 1:9; realizing the fact that law is not made for a righteous person, but for those who are lawless and rebellious, for the ungodly and sinners, for the unholy and profane, for those who kill their fathers or mothers, for murderers
1Tim 1:10; and immoral men and homosexuals and kidnappers and liars and perjurers, and whatever else is contrary to sound teaching,

Should we be concerned with "hurting a lot of people"'s feelings? Or should we be concerned that they will literally burn in hell in anguish for trillions upon trillions upon trillions of years?
Which of these two things do you think will hurt them more?

Rom 1:25; For they exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen.
Rom 1:26; For this reason God gave them over to degrading passions; for their women exchanged the natural function for that which is unnatural,
Rom 1:27; and in the same way also the men abandoned the natural function of the woman and burned in their desire toward one another, men with men committing indecent acts and receiving in their own persons the due penalty of their error.
Rom 1:32; and although they know the ordinance of God, that those who practice such things are worthy of death, not only those who do the same, but also those who give hearty approval to those who practice them.

Even merely approving of others doing it makes you just as guilty.

Lev 20:13; If there is a man who lies with a male as those who lie with a woman, both of them have committed a detestable act; they shall surely be put to death. Their bloodguiltiness is upon them.

Deut 22:5; “A woman shall not wear man’s clothing, nor shall a man put on a woman’s clothing; for whoever does these things is an abomination to the Lord your God.

I doubt you will say this if you had a gay child, but I did ask God to remove my desires for women, and I prayed in tears, and if you do not know, I was so very young fighting this guilt alone. It seems God is ok with my desires because I still have them today. Or maybe he does not care or maybe he enjoys torturing me. You choose.

 

[Sue D.]

@KittyLinda -- there's something I'd like to share with you , but not on open Forum. I'd like to share in 'Conversation' area.

 

[Brad Huber]

I doubt you will say this if you had a gay child, but I did ask God to remove my desires for women, and I prayed in tears, and if you do not know, I was so very young fighting this guilt alone. It seems God is ok with my desires because I still have them today. Or maybe he does not care or maybe he enjoys torturing me. You choose.

When I am dieting because I am overweight, I often conflict with my desire for food. It becomes stronger, I get really really hungry. But one can live with hunger pains, one can live with pain. My wife cant be intimate with me anymore, for medical reasons. I havent gone out and looked elsewhere to find that intimacy even though I really really miss it sometimes. Why cant you live without sexual interaction with others? It will be hard, but you can do it.

 

[Sue D.]

@KittyLinda -- Just got finished sharing a lot with you via 'conversation' area. Hope you find it and read it.

 

[Andyindauk]

And how are you going to reach to the gay community ? Because I can tell you what happened to me. My mother did not talk to me for nearly 8 years, after my marriage. I mean what kind of a cult that will make a mother reject her own child.

Also, I do not have to tell you that me and my ex kept all the rules that people here think is far more important that Jesus himself. We did not have sex and waited until we married. I guess that does not matter that we both were Christian women?

When I first read the bible, I also thought God does not like it, but it did not feel right, because that is who I am, and he created me this way, so I reached to these Christian meet up groups for gays/lesbians, and I had my training. I say 'training' because that was not what I used to believe. Also that is where I met my ex. It did not last long after my family basically told me day and night that I am not saved and will go to hell. I left Christianly all together for awhile and well I can't say they helped me much finding God again.

Hi Kitty,

This is a subject that divides believers like no other. In one camp there are those who believe that anyone with gay tendencies are sub-human, a sub species to be avoided, not spoken to, discriminated against and shunned like they had Covid. They deny being homophobic bigots but they are. At the opposite end of the spectrum you've got those who deny and override scripture, saying disregard what God wants, just do whatever pleases you and turns you on. Both poles are wrong and serve Satan who thrives upon hatred, ill feeling, contempt for our neighbours and contempt for God's will, rebellious. There is a middle ground to navigate in which right thinking, Spirit led Christians can indeed reach out to a gay person and show them the love of God and reveal to him/ her His rescue plan and how they can become part of it and so begin a one to one personal relationship with the ever loving creator God. It has to be said that pretty early on God's views on gay sex as opposed to homosexuality should be explained. I would add that gay sex after marriage is no less sinful than before. It's contrary to God's will and is therefore a sin.

Your parents were wrong on two counts. Not speaking to you, disowning you like that is not in keeping with Ephesians 6:4. Secondly to say that a believer is going to hell as a result of a sin is scripturally wrong and denigrates the power of the cross.

That said I believe that if someone persists in sin, ignoring God's will and pleasure, they cannot expect a Spirit filled and fulfilled relationship with Him here on earth, and worse than that, they will have to explain on judgement day.

Hope that gives you some perspective on this subject.

 

[Sue D.]

I would like to add a thought -- I happen to be in your middle-ground group.. And that which Further complicates the 'situation' are those homosexuals who have no problem 'getting in your face' about 'their rights'. The 'gay pride' parades. And those who are very vocal about 'straight' people being "homophobic."

And No one likes to hear that something they are doing is potentially wrong / Sin. Or Wrong Period. Because -- all of a sudden - that person's emotions / inner feelings are being Challenged. And that is who they are as a person.

God created us to Be sociable people. He created us With hormones. And then a certain group of people are told they Can't or Shouldn't be following their hormones or their social inclinations. So what's a person to Do. Well -- with Everyone -- salvation is the Most important decision they will Ever make. -- This life Will end and eternity Is waiting for Everyone. And it's either in God's presence (heaven) or totally without God's presence which means the place called hell / lake of fire and brimstone. Total darkness and 'waking up' to find out that satan was indeed lying to you -- non believers Won't be partying with all their unsaved friends and life Won't be better without all the pesky believers around to spoil their fun. And God Won't be there. God set up That horrible scenario For satan, and the beast and the false prophet. They are the Only ones to are destined to be their because they deserve to be there.

People 'here' are prone to sinning. It's when that sinning becomes a Life-style -- drinking, immorality , etc. as a way of life -- shows how they are on their inner being. All of us have a conscience -- it's that voice inside that is Trying to tell you that what you're thinking about or doing is Wrong. It's the Holy Spirit Trying to get your attention.

Doing things that are involving our own body - the Use of your body. How did God design our body and how are We choosing to Use it. Some people believe that they are Born 'that way' and ought to be allowed to act upon those inner feelings.
Others realize that there Is a problem and want help with it. And lots of times - a person simply needs to be Listened to. To express how they feel inside. Because a Lot of times that alone will take care of the problem. Expressing out loud or on paper Will help. It Does give clarity,

God is the Main person that everyone Needs to be talking to.

 

[Enxu]

It says turned against the natural way. This also happens in nature or are also these animals of the devil?

That is just like saying do not experience with the same sex, because you want to try. Gays/lesbians can't be with the opposite sex not because they choose not to. It is because that is their nature. I am not sure what is so difficult to understand about this.

Having strong desires for doing something does not necessarily make it their nature, I refuse to ascribe sinful habits to people's nature because that is not true, but that is beside the point. I have shared the Scriptures' stance about homosexual desires and how mankind started on this depraved path. I do not support those who condemn you or anyone who is born with such unnatural desires, I think you guys need deliverance and compassion more than anything. Seek God about this until the day you die.

What is important is not what you or I think about homosexuality, but what God considers it to be: sin. Sin can be passed down through the generations via genetic changes from sinful habits, that is why you see drug abusers give birth to children who are more prone to drug abuse etc. I am asking that you seek freedom from your bondage to sinful desires, so that your soul will be safe. Go and sin no more, that is what your journey is from now on.

 

[Enxu]

I doubt you will say this if you had a gay child, but I did ask God to remove my desires for women, and I prayed in tears, and if you do not know, I was so very young fighting this guilt alone. It seems God is ok with my desires because I still have them today. Or maybe he does not care or maybe he enjoys torturing me. You choose.

Not all of us are delivered from our spiritual bondage or battles in a split second. Even if God did hear your prayers, there is a spiritual struggle going on that could take years. I had atheistic parents who mocked my faith, used verbal threats, curses and terror on me for doing nothing but believing in God. On some level, the treatment I received was pretty much the same way you might have been treated by your mother for your unnatural desires. This went on for around 7 years before God delivered me. My parents love me, so what drove them to be so fierce against my faith? Demons. There were evil spirits or demons surrounding my ordeal all those years and I persisted in seeking God until I got delivered. What you need is patience, persistence and faith. Don't let emotions control you, if you have those desires coming up, turn away from these desires by distracting yourself with some fruitful activities. Treat it like any normal temptation you would, and just turn away from it. Keep praying to God to free you from any evil spirits involved in your desires, until you see those desires vanish.