The dangerous doctrine that we can lose our salvation.

[DHC]

You are talking about a person who appears saved but clearly is not. The Bible says a truly saved person does not wilfully practice sin: 1 John 3:9 No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God's seed remains in them; they cannot go on sinning, because they have been born of God.

If a person does practice sin, and does not repent, they are not born of God to begin with. Judas Iscariot was one of those people. He followed Christ yet he did not belong to Christ. He sinned and was lost. Peter on the other hand, also sinned greatly by denying Christ, yet was restored, and kept saved, because Peter truly belonged to Christ.

Even outwardly good, genuine people in our churches, do follow after the shadow rather than the substance. So when they fall away, it appears that saved people are become unsaved. Yet many of these people may not be genuinely born of God to begin with.

Hello James.

I noticed there was some dispute about the timing of the 'endurance' in the twenty fourth chapter of Matthew.

I would like to contribute to this discussion as I feel there appears to be some misunderstanding.

Here are the verses.

Matthew 24
9 Then they will deliver you to tribulation, and will kill you, and you will be hated by all nations because of My name.
10 At that time many will fall away and will betray one another and hate one another.
11 Many false prophets will arise and will mislead many.
12 Because lawlessness is increased, most people’s love will grow cold.
13 But the one who endures to the end, he will be saved.
14 This gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all the nations, and then the end will come.

The key verse is "But the one who endures to the end, he will be saved."

Some believe the word 'endures' mentioned above applies strictly to the end times.

Let's check a parallel account in Luke's Gospel and see if this interpretation is valid.

Luke 21
19 By your endurance you will gain your lives.

The problem is in Luke's account the mention of 'endurance' in context is concerned
with the present and near future, not specifically in the end time era.

Hence it would be more correct to see the application of the word 'endurance'
in the Christian life as present tense and also future tense.

 

[james1523]

Hello James.

I noticed there was some dispute about the timing of the 'endurance' in the twenty fourth chapter of Matthew.

I would like to contribute to this discussion as I feel there appears to be some misunderstanding.

Here are the verses.

Matthew 24
9 Then they will deliver you to tribulation, and will kill you, and you will be hated by all nations because of My name.
10 At that time many will fall away and will betray one another and hate one another.
11 Many false prophets will arise and will mislead many.
12 Because lawlessness is increased, most people’s love will grow cold.
13 But the one who endures to the end, he will be saved.
14 This gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all the nations, and then the end will come.

The key verse is "But the one who endures to the end, he will be saved."

Some believe the word 'endures' mentioned above applies strictly to the end times.

Let's check a parallel account in Luke's Gospel and see if this interpretation is valid.

Luke 21
19 By your endurance you will gain your lives.

The problem is in Luke's account the mention of 'endurance' in context is concerned
with the present and near future, not specifically in the end time era.

Hence it would be more correct to see the application of the word 'endurance'
in the Christian life as present tense and also future tense.

Hi DHC, I accept that it applies to either present, or future tense.

I believe the context in both Matthew and Luke, is enduring under persecution, or in fact trial of any kind.

James 1:2-3 says testing of faith through trials produces endurance. Likewise in Romans 5:3.

But in Matt 24:13, what is the salvation spoken of?

Hebrews 10:36 speaks about obtaining the promise after endurance. From Hebrews 10:39 we can see that this promise is the salvation of our soul. And 1 Peter 1:9 confirms that the end of our faith is to save our souls.

I don't see endurance as a condition to be met in order to be saved. That is a doctrine of works. But Christ is encouraging them not to fear the persecution, because at the end of their endurance they will be saved.

James 5:11 Behold, we count them happy which endure. Ye have heard of the patience of Job, and have seen the end of the Lord; that the Lord is very pitiful, and of tender mercy.

 

[DHC]

Hi DHC, I accept that it applies to either present, or future tense.

I believe the context in both Matthew and Luke, is enduring under persecution, or in fact trial of any kind.

James 1:2-3 says testing of faith through trials produces endurance. Likewise in Romans 5:3.

But in Matt 24:13, what is the salvation spoken of?

Hebrews 10:36 speaks about obtaining the promise after endurance. From Hebrews 10:39 we can see that this promise is the salvation of our soul. And 1 Peter 1:9 confirms that the end of our faith is to save our souls.

I don't see endurance as a condition to be met in order to be saved. That is a doctrine of works. But Christ is encouraging them not to fear the persecution, because at the end of their endurance they will be saved.

James 5:11 Behold, we count them happy which endure. Ye have heard of the patience of Job, and have seen the end of the Lord; that the Lord is very pitiful, and of tender mercy.

Hello James.

I understand the point you are making James, and I agree with you.

But there is a problem with the classification of 'endurance' as a work.

May I ask if you see love as a work?

 

[farout]

The belief of eternal security is one that really shows how one reads and understands the Bible. I can't help and wonder if some have heard a sermon form some preacher they admire, and believe that that preacher has done in-depth study and really knows the answer. I have been with pastors who have stated in a sermon what they honestly think about eternal security,at that time. however with more study and prayer they have changed their mind. every time I know of they have changed from not believing in eternal security to believing in eternal security.

Here are my concerns. When a preacher changes his theology on a subject, has he corrected it publically so he does not mislead his people? If the preacher has moved on, what about those who don't know that he has ben enlightened anew?

Here comes the point of why we should do our own study, especially on eternal security. More and more Christians are becoming aware that just because a preacher says it, does not mean it's factual. Case in point, is many Christians are closely re-examining the events of Christ' return. Seminary professors no longer consider the C. I. Scofield Bible as credible. Life before God creation, (caveman) is no longer even given any real evidence of truth. The re-examining of Darby's theory he produced in 1820 is more and more being "left behind". (pun intended) Unless it's a CORE theology, we need to carefully do our own study and not accept something jut because a preacher says so. This is critically so when it comes to television evangelists who preach health and wealth, and asking for "seed faith money".

Bible study takes time and the proper tools to do word studies. Not many Christians have invested in their spiritual growth, fewer yet have more than a Bible. Perhaps each of us needs to ask why we don't see or feel the need to do our own study. Bing solidly confident in what we believe and are prepared to Biblically support our theology is each Christian's responsibility. I find that it is much easier to take the preacher's word for it than to study things for myself.

Any thoughts?

 

[eddieb]

Regardless of this side topic about uses of the Bible, my point still stands: the context of the passage about endurance, is an encouragement to believers that they will be saved at the end (of death, martyrdom, persecution). Christ is not making a law or condition that a person must endure to be saved. This would make salvation conditional upon our endurance, and not conditional upon our faith in Christ.

regardless? so you regard-less how it would make another human being feel to accuse them of having a religious mind? why should I regard to defend my point with one who dis-regards and is dismissive towards me? What you said to me was rude. I did not speak to you in this way. You need to show more respect to others especially if you want them to regard futher conversation with you. Until you do, no topic, side or main, will be regarded from me.

 

[james1523]

Hello James.

I understand the point you are making James, and I agree with you.

But there is a problem with the classification of 'endurance' as a work.

May I ask if you see love as a work?

I did not say endurance was a work. I said the believe that endurance must be kept as a condition for salvation, is a work. If we believe we should love others in order to be saved, that is also a work. We cannot depend upon our own endurance or our own love. But love itself is not a work.

 

[james1523]

regardless? so you regard-less how it would make another human being feel to accuse them of having a religious mind? why should I regard to defend my point with one who dis-regards and is dismissive towards me? What you said to me was rude. I did not speak to you in this way. You need to show more respect to others especially if you want them to regard futher conversation with you. Until you do, no topic, side or main, will be regarded from me.

Then I apologize if my remarks caused offense. Truly, it's not intended as an accusation of yourself personally, it's a remark about the origins of what I believe to be a works-based doctrine that one can lose their salvation by failing to endure. Whether you are religious or not yourself, is not my place to judge, nor my interest in this discussion.

 

[eddieb]

Then I apologize if my remarks caused offense. Truly, it's not intended as an accusation of yourself personally, it's a remark about the origins of what I believe to be a works-based doctrine that one can lose their salvation by failing to endure. Whether you are religious or not yourself, is not my place to judge, nor my interest in this discussion.

thank you. I appreciate that.

in an earlier post you had said i was misquoting a scripture about enduring to the end and that the word "if" was not present. I found a scripture for you:
galatians 6:9 And let us not be weary in well doing: for in due season we shall reap, if we faint not.
here the word "if" is present as well as the implied conclusion either way. it says "fainting" is possible. We can either not faint and reap OR faint and not reap, thus there is something we need be doing.
If you reread my earlier posts its clear to see i was not speaking from the point of view of a works based doctrine. what i am saying is one can turn from God and back to sin. and the bible is clear in galatians 5:21(b) that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
and it is also clear in Luke 12
45 But and if that servant say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming; and shall begin to beat the menservants and maidens, and to eat and drink, and to be drunken;

46The lord of that servant will come in a day when he looketh not for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in sunder, and will appoint him his portion with the unbelievers.
which means the servant turned from God and sinned and then time ran out and he ended up in hell. This is why we must endure. because there are only two choices, life or death.
Once again, works dosent save us. But turning from God and living in unrepented sin, according to scripture, surely does kill us.

 

[james1523]

Before you respond, I ask that you read everything I write. And don't take my word for it, but seek God in prayer and search the scriptures to get a full understanding.

Again, I ask that you read everything.

The doctrine that you can lose your salvation makes me sick to my stomach. It completely rejects that the gift of God is through grace, and makes people think that after you are saved, you can "work" your way into Heaven by keeping the law. The reason used by many, for us being able to lose our salvation is because "people will think they are saved forever, and sin, and go against God," but this is completely unbiblical.

Here are my arguments:

1) The doctrine that you can lose your salvation is not biblical.

Ephesians 1:13-14 says, referring to Christ: "In whom you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after you believed, you were sealed with that Holy Spirit of promise, who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory."

2 Corinthians 1:21,22 says: "Now it is God who makes both us and you stand firm in Christ. He anointed us, set his seal of ownership on us, and put his Spirit in our hearts as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come."

If we receive the Holy Spirit by faith (which we do), and if the Holy Spirit is a seal, guaranteeing what is to come, then we cannot lose our salvation.

There is actually little biblical or historical support to say conclusively that the doctrine of loss of salvation is wrong. The notable figures of the early church, all believed that a person , once truly saved, could end up in hell fire. For this reason, this view is maintained by the Orthodox, Catholic, and mainline Protestant faiths. That's the result of my personal study into the historical aspects of these doctrines.

2) The doctrine that you can lose your salvation assumes that we are not new creatures in Christ.

The major reason I understand from those with the viewpoint that we can lose our salvation, is that believing we can't lose it will cause us to sin and fall away from God, taking advantage of grace. But this is unbiblical. It misunderstands that we are now new creatures in Christ, and that the Holy Spirit transforms our hearts to love God and want to serve Him: 2 Corinthians 5:16-17 says: "Therefore, from now on, we regard no one according to the flesh. Even though we have known Christ according to the flesh, yet now we know Him thus no longer. 17 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new."

And Hebrews 8:10-12 also talks about the heart transformation that occurs once we believe, quoting from Jeremiah 31, saying: "For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will put My laws in their mind and write them on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. None of them shall teach his neighbor, and none his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ for all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them. For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their lawless deeds I will remember no more.”

And again, Romans 2:28-29 says, "For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh, but he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the Spirit, not in the letter; whose praise is not from men but from God."

Those whom would try and use grace as a license for lawless deeds are showing that they are still enslaved to sin, which is evidence that they haven't been transformed by the regenerating power of the Holy Spirit. Romans 6:15-16 says, "What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? Certainly not! Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one’s slaves whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death, or of obedience leading to righteousness?"

We have no need to fear that a true believer will ever fall away from the faith. The Bible talks of God's chastisement. In Hebrews 12:5-11, it talks about how God chastises His children, not for wrath, but for their own good:

"And you have forgotten the exhortation which speaks to you as to sons: 'My son, do not despise the chastening of the Lord, Nor be discouraged when you are rebuked by Him; For whom the Lord loves He chastens, And scourges every son whom He receives.” If you endure chastening, God deals with you as with sons; for what son is there whom a father does not chasten? But if you are without chastening, of which all have become partakers, then you are illegitimate and not sons. Furthermore, we have had human fathers who corrected us, and we paid them respect. Shall we not much more readily be in subjection to the Father of spirits and live? For they indeed for a few days chastened us as seemed best to them, but He for our profit, that we may be partakers of His holiness. Now no chastening seems to be joyful for the present, but painful; nevertheless, afterward it yields the peaceable fruit of righteousness to those who have been trained by it.'" (Hebrews 12:5-11)

It helps to realize that God wants to partner and join with man. So that it is not a man-only effort, or a God-only effort, but both living together. It is about two people, living as one. With this in mind, although there are some exceedingly great and high promises to us, these things only become a practical reality to us if we apply and meet the conditions. God designed it in this way, because He does not want mankind to living independently of Him. Regarding being new creatures, note that it is conditional upon "if anyone is in Christ". What does it mean to be in Christ? It means to abide in Him (John 15). It means to walk in the Spirit (Romans 8:1). Ephesians 4:22-24 says we are to put on the new man. It is not guaranteed that we are a new creation just by believing, we must put off the old and put on the new. How do we do this? 1 Thess 5:19 - pray continually, thank, rejoice, at all times, do not quench the Spirit. To abide in Christ, to live and walk in the Spirit, means to have our living, our habitation in God (Col 3:2). If we don't do this, we will live in our flesh, and we open ourselves to condemnation, and note what it says:

5 Those who live according to the flesh have their minds set on what the flesh desires; but those who live in accordance with the Spirit have their minds set on what the Spirit desires. 6 The mind governed by the flesh is death,but the mind governed by the Spirit is life and peace. 7 The mind governed by the flesh is hostile to God; it does not submit to God’s law, nor can it do so. 8 Those who are in the realm of the flesh cannot please God.

So we see that salvation depends upon whether our mind is ruled by our flesh or by the Spirit. This is not automatically guaranteed after we believe in Christ. From experience it takes time and it takes effort.

3) The doctrine that you can lose your salvation results in a "work-oriented" approach to God.

I myself used to think that we could lose our salvation. I was plagued by constantly asking God to forgive me for my sins, thinking that if I didn't pray over every single sin that I would go to Hell. I also was afraid that I would fall away and turn away from the faith. But God showed me His great love, that we can't do anything to earn it. If we could do anything to earn our salvation on our own willpower, then it would negate the fact that it's all of grace, and not of works. We should be resting in Christ, not resting in ourselves. We should be resting in the finished atonement of Jesus on the cross; not on our own good deeds. If we rest in one, we cannot rest in the other, because Paul says in Romans 11:6, "And if by grace, then it is no longer of works; otherwise grace is no longer grace. But if it is of works, it is no longer grace; otherwise work is no longer work."

Romans 4:4 says, "Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt."

We cannot earn our salvation. No matter how many good deeds we do, no matter how hard we struggle, no matter how hard we try, we can pray every day, go to church every day, read the Bible every day, and no matter what -- it will amount to nothing. Our salvation is a free gift. Jesus, God in the flesh, came down from heaven and died, bearing the full wrath of God on the cross so that not a single drop would have to be poured out on us. Jesus was the atonement for our sins. We can't do anything to earn it. We receive it by faith, by putting our trust in Jesus and Himself alone, so that His righteousness will be imputed to us, and we can receive mercy.

My eyes have been opened so much recently, to the beauty and love of God that He has bestowed on us in Christ. Whenever I learn more of the amazing thing God has done for us in Christ, and think about being with Him forever, my heart is overjoyed, and I want to serve God even more eagerly. If we can lose our salvation, then that would mean that we would have to do something on our own, or in other words, "It's 99% Jesus but 1% me." And then we would be boasting in Heaven about how that 1% came from us.

No, but Jesus is the full atonement. It's 100% Jesus, start to finish. God does a work in us, and then He completes it. Philippians 1:6 says, "being confident of this very thing, that He who has begun a good work in you will complete it until the day of Jesus Christ;"

I wouldn't have it any other way! Can you imagine if it depended on us?

Hebrews 4:11 says we must strive to enter His rest. It means we have to work hard. We have to work hard at doing those things Paul instructs the church: pray, rejoice, thank, grieve not the Spirit, etc. This is God's will for us (1 Thess 5:18), because it results in us abiding in Christ, living in the Spirit. The best part of your paragraph was this one: "But God showed me His great love". I think God doesn't really care if we do or don't believe we can lose our salvation. He wants to show us His great love. He wants us to know Him better. Perhaps the reason why you once thought you could lose salvation, was so that you could turn to Him out of frustration or fear, and experience His great love. Perhaps your conscience condemned you, you experienced self-condemnation. But then you learnt the secret of turning to Christ and abiding in Him by setting your mind on the Spirit. Although God brought you out of Egypt (saved you from sins), you needed this desert experience, so that you could enter His rest. And once we enter His rest, we don't particularly care if such and such a doctrine is right or wrong, we are just happy to abide in Christ. That is the important thing here. We can rest in Christ if we have set our mind on the Spirit and abide in Him (see my previous comments and Scripture). If we abide in our flesh, there is no rest, no peace, no joy, no contentment, no experience of life. Daily and regular confession of sins is important to maintain a healthy fellowship with the Father. God wants us to do good works "in Him", they are necessary for us to obtain rewards, and though they may not affect our own salvation, they can affect the salvation of others. If we are concerned about whether we will make it or not in the Christian life, a great encouragement is that Jesus is praying for us that our faith will not fail Romans 8:34, Luke 22:32.

In summary, the security of our salvation, does not depend upon us believing a certain doctrine, it depends upon us abiding in Christ (living in the Spirit), as a result of our continual prayer, thankfulness and careful consideration of the Holy Spirit within us. If we abide in Christ, we have THE doctrine, and there is no such thing as a "dangerous doctrine". He is the way, He is the truth, He is the life. Any doctrine apart from Christ, is not the way, or the truth or the life. So a dangerous doctrine, is to live a life without Christ. The safest place to be is in the centre of God's will, and the centre of His will is found in the person of Jesus Christ.

 

[Glow]

There is actually little biblical or historical support to say conclusively that the doctrine of loss of salvation is wrong. The notable figures of the early church, all believed that a person , once truly saved, could end up in hell fire. For this reason, this view is maintained by the Orthodox, Catholic, and mainline Protestant faiths. That's the result of my personal study into the historical aspects of these doctrines.




It helps to realize that God wants to partner and join with man. So that it is not a man-only effort, or a God-only effort, but both living together. It is about two people, living as one. With this in mind, although there are some exceedingly great and high promises to us, these things only become a practical reality to us if we apply and meet the conditions. God designed it in this way, because He does not want mankind to living independently of Him. Regarding being new creatures, note that it is conditional upon "if anyone is in Christ". What does it mean to be in Christ? It means to abide in Him (John 15). It means to walk in the Spirit (Romans 8:1). Ephesians 4:22-24 says we are to put on the new man. It is not guaranteed that we are a new creation just by believing, we must put off the old and put on the new. How do we do this? 1 Thess 5:19 - pray continually, thank, rejoice, at all times, do not quench the Spirit. To abide in Christ, to live and walk in the Spirit, means to have our living, our habitation in God (Col 3:2). If we don't do this, we will live in our flesh, and we open ourselves to condemnation, and note what it says:

5 Those who live according to the flesh have their minds set on what the flesh desires; but those who live in accordance with the Spirit have their minds set on what the Spirit desires. 6 The mind governed by the flesh is death,but the mind governed by the Spirit is life and peace. 7 The mind governed by the flesh is hostile to God; it does not submit to God’s law, nor can it do so. 8 Those who are in the realm of the flesh cannot please God.

So we see that salvation depends upon whether our mind is ruled by our flesh or by the Spirit. This is not automatically guaranteed after we believe in Christ. From experience it takes time and it takes effort.



Hebrews 4:11 says we must strive to enter His rest. It means we have to work hard. We have to work hard at doing those things Paul instructs the church: pray, rejoice, thank, grieve not the Spirit, etc. This is God's will for us (1 Thess 5:18), because it results in us abiding in Christ, living in the Spirit. The best part of your paragraph was this one: "But God showed me His great love". I think God doesn't really care if we do or don't believe we can lose our salvation. He wants to show us His great love. He wants us to know Him better. Perhaps the reason why you once thought you could lose salvation, was so that you could turn to Him out of frustration or fear, and experience His great love. Perhaps your conscience condemned you, you experienced self-condemnation. But then you learnt the secret of turning to Christ and abiding in Him by setting your mind on the Spirit. Although God brought you out of Egypt (saved you from sins), you needed this desert experience, so that you could enter His rest. And once we enter His rest, we don't particularly care if such and such a doctrine is right or wrong, we are just happy to abide in Christ. That is the important thing here. We can rest in Christ if we have set our mind on the Spirit and abide in Him (see my previous comments and Scripture). If we abide in our flesh, there is no rest, no peace, no joy, no contentment, no experience of life. Daily and regular confession of sins is important to maintain a healthy fellowship with the Father. God wants us to do good works "in Him", they are necessary for us to obtain rewards, and though they may not affect our own salvation, they can affect the salvation of others. If we are concerned about whether we will make it or not in the Christian life, a great encouragement is that Jesus is praying for us that our faith will not fail Romans 8:34, Luke 22:32.

In summary, the security of our salvation, does not depend upon us believing a certain doctrine, it depends upon us abiding in Christ (living in the Spirit), as a result of our continual prayer, thankfulness and careful consideration of the Holy Spirit within us. If we abide in Christ, we have THE doctrine, and there is no such thing as a "dangerous doctrine". He is the way, He is the truth, He is the life. Any doctrine apart from Christ, is not the way, or the truth or the life. So a dangerous doctrine, is to live a life without Christ. The safest place to be is in the centre of God's will, and the centre of His will is found in the person of Jesus Christ.

Hi James. The reason I said that the doctrine that one can lose their salvation is dangerous, is because it lets people think that it's "Jesus plus something" in order to be saved. With this mindset, it can effect someone and whether they will truly come to rest in the atoning death and resurrection of Jesus, or whether they will try to work their way into Heaven. I don't call it a dangerous doctrine to be rude, but because it is very dangerous to think that we can add anything to the cross of Jesus Christ.

No amount of good works or effort can merit us anything with God. Even in the Old Testament, as evidenced by passages such as Romans 4 and almost the entire book of Hebrews, people were saved by grace through faith. This is shown also in passages like Luke 18:9-14, where Jesus told a parable about the self-righteous Pharisee and the tax collector to people, "...who trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and treated others with contempt...." (Luke 18:9)

The gospel is glorious, in that no amount of effort we do can get us into Heaven. Anyone who believes we can earn our salvation is putting themselves in a dangerous position, and that is the main reason I call this doctrine dangerous.

EDIT: One more thing: I say all of this in reference to those who haven't yet come to put their faith in Jesus Christ. For them, telling them they can lose their salvation might keep them from coming to be saved, because they may still believe they have to "do" something, or "be" something. (For example, do good works, read the Bible a certain number of times a day, try and force themselves from sinning on their own willpower, etc) All of it is through God's grace. I have found that by relishing in His love and His eternal salvation, and knowing that He will keep me in His hand, my heart is liberated to wanting to do more for Him, out of love for Him.

I hope this helps.

 

[B-A-C]

Hi James. The reason I said that the doctrine that one can lose their salvation is dangerous, is because it lets people think that it's "Jesus plus something" in order to be saved.

But it is...
Jesus + our faith. Faith can be lost.
If it's just Jesus and faith isn't required, then the whole world is saved whether they believe or not.

Which is more dangerous?
To believe I'm saved no matter what (even if I'm not)
or...
to believe I might not be saved no matter what and hold on to my faith?

John 3:16; "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.

 

[RJ]

Hebrews 4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted [SUB]g[/SUB] the heavenly gift, and [SUB]h[/SUB] have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 [SUB]6[/SUB] if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, [SUB]i[/SUB] since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame. 7

• If salvation comes with the in-dwelling of the Holy Spirit and God says he will never leave or forake you, how can you commit Apostasy unless you where not saved in the first place?
• It is impossible to "Fall Away" if you are truly saved in the first place.

 

[james1523]

Hi James. The reason I said that the doctrine that one can lose their salvation is dangerous, is because it lets people think that it's "Jesus plus something" in order to be saved. With this mindset, it can effect someone and whether they will truly come to rest in the atoning death and resurrection of Jesus, or whether they will try to work their way into Heaven. I don't call it a dangerous doctrine to be rude, but because it is very dangerous to think that we can add anything to the cross of Jesus Christ.

No amount of good works or effort can merit us anything with God. Even in the Old Testament, as evidenced by passages such as Romans 4 and almost the entire book of Hebrews, people were saved by grace through faith. This is shown also in passages like Luke 18:9-14, where Jesus told a parable about the self-righteous Pharisee and the tax collector to people, "...who trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and treated others with contempt...." (Luke 18:9)

The gospel is glorious, in that no amount of effort we do can get us into Heaven. Anyone who believes we can earn our salvation is putting themselves in a dangerous position, and that is the main reason I call this doctrine dangerous.

EDIT: One more thing: I say all of this in reference to those who haven't yet come to put their faith in Jesus Christ. For them, telling them they can lose their salvation might keep them from coming to be saved, because they may still believe they have to "do" something, or "be" something. (For example, do good works, read the Bible a certain number of times a day, try and force themselves from sinning on their own willpower, etc) All of it is through God's grace. I have found that by relishing in His love and His eternal salvation, and knowing that He will keep me in His hand, my heart is liberated to wanting to do more for Him, out of love for Him.

I hope this helps.

Good stuff, thanks for clarifying. The person who believes they can't lose salvation but keeps on sinning, and the person who believes they can lose salvation but strives to be saved by their own works, are both living in the same way - out of their self. Both kinds of people need to learn how to live "by Him" and not "by their self", because the "self" is the thing which is behind the sin or the works-based mentality. Using the symbols in Genesis, the sin is from the evil part of the tree of knowledge, and the good works are from the good part of the tree of knowledge, but whether it is evil or good it is still on the side of the "tree of knowledge" and not the "tree of life" who is Christ. So we need to "abide in the tree of life", or "abide in the vine", or "abide in Christ". When we become saved, Christ is in us, but then we need to get into Christ by letting His Word dwell in us and setting our mind on the Spirit not on the flesh (John 15:4-7, Rom 8:6).

Whether it is sinning, or doing good works for salvation, or, self-condemnation in the conscience making one feeling guilty and unworthy - these are all manifestations of the self, and I don't think it is due to any particular doctrine one way or the other. It doesn't matter what we believe about eternal security as long as we live by Christ and not live by our self or live by doctrine. Living by Christ will solve all the problems because all the problems come from our self. Deny our self Luke 9:23. In order to save our life we must first lose it. If our self keeps manifesting in sin or good works or self-condemnation, our self is not dead yet. Jesus's death on the cross saves us from God's judgment and the penalty of sin, and Christ's resurrection saves us from the power of sin which gets its power from the self and this self must die (1 Cor 15). Even though we have died and been raised with Christ 2000 years ago, we need to experience this by setting our heart on things above: Col 3:1 Since, then, you have been raised with Christ, set your hearts on things above, where Christ is, seated at the right hand of God.

Salvation is about denying, even dieing to our self, and experiencing Christ's suffering, death (the cross) and resurrection life. It is a common view that the power to save is in the blood, but strictly speaking the power to save from sin, self, satan and death, is found in the resurrection:
Phil 3:9-10 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith: I want to know Christ--yes, to know the power of his resurrection and participation in his sufferings, becoming like him in his death,

Like Paul, we should desire to be found "in Him", and not in our self, having not our own righteousness, but the righteousness of God by faith. This "righteousness of God" by faith, is Christ in his suffering, death and resurrection ("Christ our Righteousness"). Our goal should be to experience and apply Christ's suffering, death and resurrection, by which our self dies and we then experience and dwell in His life. This is what it means to "know Christ" and "be saved by faith" - to believe into the person of Jesus Christ and be baptized (immersed) into Him. And to believe into Christ, means that by faith we live and dwell in, and have our being in, and become conformed to the image of Christ (Rom 9:29). Noahs ark represents Christ, and just like Noah and his family were kept safe from the flood (God's judgement) by abiding in the ark, so too we are kept safe, even saved, by abiding in Christ. Noah did not just believe that the ark could float, and because he believed that the ark could float, God decided to keep him safe from the flood - that's not how it works, but that's kind of how many today present and interpret the Gospel. And the question of "can you lose your salvation", is like asking "can the ark sink"? The answer is no the ark cannot sink, but if you want to be saved, you must first get inside and stay inside the ark.

 

[B-A-C]

Hebrews 4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted g the heavenly gift, and h have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 6 if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, i since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame. 7

If salvation comes with the in-dwelling of the Holy Spirit and God says he will never leave or forake you, how can you commit Apostasy unless you where not saved in the first place?
It is impossible to "Fall Away" if you are truly saved in the first place.

Hebrews 6 doesn't say it's impossible to fall away, it says if you do fall away, it's impossible to come back.

Heb 6:4; For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit,
Heb 6:5; and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come,
Heb 6:6; and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame.

Also, while He will never leave or forsake us, there is no verse that says we won't leave or forsake Him. (As the seventy disciples did, as Judas did, as Peter did 3 times on the night of his trial, etc...)

Finally, if you can only fall away if you were never saved in the first place, what assurance do any of us have that we are really saved?

 

[RJ]

Opinions and Bible knowledge do vary but, here is my reply to yourHebrews 6 statement.

• While trying to establish the church during St. Pauls time, he had a lot of trouble with infiltrators (spies) from the Temple. These spies joined the church and testified to everyone that they were one of them...believers in Jesus Christ, only to turn around and trick memebers into believing that wasn't enough, that they, the members of the church, needed to go to the temple to participate in sacrifices again.
• What Paul was doing here was telling the true Christians, that these "Spies" were reverting back to the law, not true Christians, they were liers because they had never been saved in the first place.
• How can you fall away from Jesus when he lives in you....where do you fall too to get away from him? Don't mistake pulling away from falling away....OH, Satan loves that one!
• Judfas is a great example of this...he was a lier and a theft in the first place; never did believe and trust in Jesus from the begining!
• And finally, what assurance can I give you.....sorry brother, you are on your own their. For me and my household, we will ALWAYS serve the Lord.

 

[Glow]

But it is...
Jesus + our faith. Faith can be lost.
If it's just Jesus and faith isn't required, then the whole world is saved whether they believe or not.

Which is more dangerous?
To believe I'm saved no matter what (even if I'm not)
or...
to believe I might not be saved no matter what and hold on to my faith?

John 3:16; "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.

I think the problem lies in that there's a belief that we can keep faith on our own willpower, when actually: "...it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure." (Philippians 2:13)

A truly saved person, one who has the Holy Spirit, will bear good fruit. As Jesus said in Luke 6:43-45, "No good tree bears bad fruit, nor does a bad tree bear good fruit. Each tree is recognized by its own fruit. People do not pick figs from thornbushes, or grapes from briers. A good man brings good things out of the good stored up in his heart, and an evil man brings evil things out of the evil stored up in his heart. For the mouth speaks what the heart is full of."

It's the nature of the person that determines what the person will do. A tree that is good by nature will bear good fruit. A tree that is bad by nature will bear bad fruit. We as Christians, being regenerated by the power of the Holy Spirit, are new creatures in Christ. He takes out the old, stony heart and replaces it with a brand new heart.

No, a Christian will not be perfect. We still sin at times, and we still have times of difficulty, but the good news is that we don't have to worry and be anxious and struggle, trying to keep our salvation on our own willpower. A truly saved person lives a different life than an unsaved person. Again, they won't be perfect, but the "love of Christ compels us," because we have the Holy Spirit.

I think one of the greatest liberties of the Christian life is to know that God loves you so much that He won't let you go. He will discipline us and chastise us so that we don't fall away. Someone who is not saved might hear this and say, "I can sin all I want because God will keep me." That would be evidence that the person is most likely not saved, because as the book of 1 John says, "If we say that we have fellowship with Him and yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth;" (1 John 1:6)

The entire book of 1 John gives us evidences us whether someone is really saved or not. It says that we will love our fellow brothers and sisters in Christ, we will walk in the light, and we will also believe (most importantly) in Jesus the Christ. As 1 John 5:13 says, "I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life."

To know we have eternal life frees us from thinking you have to constantly be doing something in order to keep your salvation. Now, someone may read all of this and say, again, "I can sin because God will keep me," but that is evidence that their heart is not changed. Romans 6:15-16 says, "What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? May it never be! Do you not know that when you present yourselves to someone as slaves for obedience, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin resulting in death, or of obedience resulting in righteousness?"

 

[RJ]

My sister Glow, it is God that gives you your faith, not something you manufacture and can loose. If it were so, then salvation would come from something you must do and that would be salvation by works.
8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast.
Ephisians 2: 8-9

 

[RJ]

God is a gift giver, not an "Indian Giver"!

 

[B-A-C]

I think the problem lies in that there's a belief that we can keep faith on our own willpower, when actually: "...it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure." (Philippians 2:13)

God (the Holy Spirit) will lead us, he will persuade us, he works in us, he will guide us, all of that is true. It's also true we can't do it on our own.
But just because you have the Holy Spirit doesn't mean you can't fall away. The Bible makes it clear the Holy Spirit can be resisted.

1 Tim 4:1; But the Spirit explicitly says that in later times some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons,

Heb 6:4; For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit,
Heb 6:5; and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come,
Heb 6:6; and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame.

Acts 7:51; "You men who are stiff-necked and uncircumcised in heart and ears are always resisting the Holy Spirit; you are doing just as your fathers did.

 

[RJ]

Hebrews 6:6 and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame.

• I think it is important to note that in 6:6, Paul is saying, that you can't just fall in and out of salvation on a whilm or due to your circumstance.
• He is saying, if you could "fall away" then, you couldn't be brought back into repentence or salvation a second time because that would require Christ to come back and die on the cross again, in order for your sins to be forgiven, which we all know is not going to happen.
• He died once and for all!
• Before he hung his head and died, Jesus said it was finished. His mission was complete and the devil was defeated for all times.
• We will just have to agree to disagree and let others decide for themselves.