The dreaded "works" doctrine.

[Br. Bear]

Greetings Brother,

In almost every case, when the New Testament speaks of 'works' negatively, it has in mind either circumcision or Jewish food laws. Bearing this in mind can help you avoid getting in a mess about works/grace.

yes, it is often overlooked. Much was/is concerning 'getting right with God' by keeping the whole Law, which included the doing required by the person concerned.
This overflows to the more 'general' practices that only certain priests could do on behalf of the people, which is also why the New Testament [and i think we;ll find in the Old Testament also] speaks of those things being of none effect now, so the keeping of them, the looking to them to help or the dependence upon them, etc is of no benefit = on the contrary, regarding the Faith of Christ, it is contrary and what was used to try to persuade 'Christians' away from the faith they had received and the Hope they held on to.

Thank you for bring this up.

What we do have now is found throughout the Bible.

One thought we could perhaps remember is that it is by their fruit, not by their leaves!

Now at the same time there are a number of places we can find mention of some sort of ;works; or another, that speak of actions and reactions of either an individual or a group/congregation, for example:

This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh. For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would. But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.

Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God. But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness, temperance: against such there is no law. And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.

If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.

Let us not be desirous of vain glory, provoking one another, envying one another.
Galatians 5:16-24

I think you'll find that B-A-C @B-A-C has been wanting to bring our attention to the need to do that which a branch must do to remain grafted in

And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree; boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee. Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in. Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear: for if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee. Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in His goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off. And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again. For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree?
Romans 11:17-24


Bless you ....><>

 

[B-A-C]

do you believe that they adequately portray the standing which the believer has before God, in Christ? For from that position, which is one of 'sonship', for example; he would never be called 'a worthless slave', or suffer 'eternal punishment',

That's the whole point here. It's not what you say you believe that determines your "sonship". It's what you do.

1Jn 3:9; No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
1Jn 3:10; By this the children of God and the children of the devil are obvious: anyone who does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor the one who does not love his brother.

You can say you're a son of God all day long, but your actions are what determines this.

The Bible says some people "say" they are saved., but they are liars.

1Jn 2:4; The one who says, "I have come to know Him," and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him;
1Jn 2:9; The one who says he is in the Light and yet hates his brother is in the darkness until now.
1Jn 2:11; But the one who hates his brother is in the darkness and walks in the darkness, and does not know where he is going because the darkness has blinded his eyes.

The Bible says some people "think" they are saved, but they will find out differently.

Mat 7:21; "Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter.

Tit 1:16; They profess to know God, but by their deeds they deny Him, being detestable and disobedient and worthless for any good deed.

There is a place in the New Testament we are called "sons of God".

Gal 4:1; Now I say, as long as the heir is a child, he does not differ at all from a slave although he is owner of everything,
Gal 4:2; but he is under guardians and managers until the date set by the father.
Gal 4:3; So also we, while we were children, were held in bondage under the elemental things of the world.
Gal 4:4; But when the fullness of the time came, God sent forth His Son, born of a woman, born under the Law,
Gal 4:5; so that He might redeem those who were under the Law, that we might receive the adoption as sons.
Gal 4:6; Because you are sons, God has sent forth the Spirit of His Son into our hearts, crying, "Abba! Father!"
Gal 4:7; Therefore you are no longer a slave, but a son; and if a son, then an heir through God.

Paul says we can go back to being slaves if we want to.

Gal 4:8; However at that time, when you did not know God, you were slaves to those which by nature are no gods.
Gal 4:9; But now that you have come to know God, or rather to be known by God, how is it that you turn back again to the weak and worthless elemental things, to which you desire to be enslaved all over again?
Gal 4:10; You observe days and months and seasons and years.
Gal 4:11; I fear for you, that perhaps I have labored over you in vain.

 

[Br. Bear]

I get what your saying and agree,,, yet it is still proof, maybe a better way to say it is evidence in a much larger picture, lots of evidence add up to more proof. A changed heart is proof, a new spirit is proof, a new life style is proof, producing fruit in our life is proof. It seems a man is not justified by faith or works alone but when they are united.

so when a Athiests, Muslims, and Hindu's do good works we both know they dont have any faith, so no there is no proof.

So I guess the bottom line is proof usually requires more then one peace of evidence

Greetings Dave,

It has been brought to mind that I call you my Brother. And , you, now, likewise refer to other fellow believers as Brothers and Sisters.
We never thought like that before.

The Bible tells that we ought love one another and by so doing, people will see and glorify our Father in Heaven. It also tells us to look after the household of Faith.
There is something in that which is probably more pertinent than we give it credit to.

Yes, we should love people in general but what we see now is that those who as His, have a genuine and different love for one another that they never had before believing and sets us apart from all else/others. Much of the writings we have in the Bible speak of that Love for one another being predominantly the agape love we have for our Brothers.
It is a love that has a God definition to it ,t eh way Jesus showed it to be.

and as you know, love is a doing word a bit like work is.



A new commandment I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you also must love one another. By this everyone will know that you are My disciples, if you love one another.
John 13:34-35

Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.
Matthew 5:16

This is to My Father's glory, that you bear much fruit, proving yourselves to be My disciples.
John 15:8

O righteous Father, the world hath not known Thee: but I have known Thee, and these have known that Thou hast sent Me. And I have declared unto them Thy Name, and will declare it: that the love wherewith Thou hast loved Me may be in them, and I in them.
John 17:25-26

Herein is My Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit; so shall ye be My disciples. As the Father hath loved Me, so have I loved you: continue ye in My love. If ye keep My commandments, ye shall abide in My love; even as I have kept My Father's commandments, and abide in His love. These things have I spoken unto you, that My joy might remain in you, and that your joy might be full.

This is My commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you.
John 15:8-12

Grace and Peace


Bless you ....><>

These words spake Jesus, and lifted up His eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify Thy Son, that Thy Son also may glorify Thee: as Thou hast given Him power over all flesh, that He should give eternal life to as many as Thou hast given Him.

And this is life eternal, that they might know Thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, Whom Thou hast sent.

I have glorified Thee on the earth: I have finished the work which Thou gavest Me to do. And now, O Father, glorify Thou Me with Thine Own Self with the glory which I had with Thee before the world was.

I have manifested Thy name unto the men which Thou gavest Me out of the world: Thine they were, and Thou gavest them Me; and they have kept Thy word. Now they have known that all things whatsoever Thou hast given Me are of Thee. For I have given unto them the words which Thou gavest Me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came out from thee, and they have believed that thou didst send me. 9I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which Thou hast given Me; for they are Thine. And all Mine are Thine, and Thine are Mine; and I am glorified in them.
John 17:1-10

 

[Br. Bear]

@B-A-C
Greetings Brother,

for scrutiny's sake, can you please tell me where?

The Bible says some people "think" they are saved, but they will find out differently.

My iron need sharpening!


Bless you ....><>

 

[B-A-C]

for scrutiny's sake, can you please tell me where?

Mat 7:21; "Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter.
Mat 7:22; "Many will say to Me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?'
Mat 7:23; "And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.'

Tit 1:16; They profess to know God, but by their deeds they deny Him, being detestable and disobedient and worthless for any good deed.

Luk 13:25; "Once the head of the house gets up and shuts the door, and you begin to stand outside and knock on the door, saying, 'Lord, open up to us!' then He will answer and say to you, 'I do not know where you are from.'
Luk 13:26; "Then you will begin to say, 'We ate and drank in Your presence, and You taught in our streets';
Luk 13:27; and He will say, 'I tell you, I do not know where you are from; DEPART FROM ME, ALL YOU EVILDOERS.'
Luk 13:28; "In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth when you see Abraham and Isaac and Jacob and all the prophets in the kingdom of God, but yourselves being thrown out.

Jas 1:22; But prove yourselves doers of the word, and not merely hearers who delude themselves.


de·lude
/dəˈlo͞od/

Learn to pronounce


verb
verb: delude; 3rd person present: deludes; past tense: deluded; past participle: deluded; gerund or present participle: deluding

1. impose a misleading belief upon (someone); deceive; fool.
   "too many theorists have deluded the public"

 

[Br. Bear]

Hello Br. Bear,

Thank you, Yes, please point me to those short videos. I will also, God willing, make a study of the word you suggest, and look at the link you have provided.

Within the love of Christ our Saviour,
Our risen and glorified
Saviour, Lord and Head.
Chris

Sister,

go here

Lamenting is Worship

Michael Card: Lamenting is Worship! part 7

www.talkjesus.com

Bless you ....><>

 

[Br. Bear]

Mat 7:21; "Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter.
Mat 7:22; "Many will say to Me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?'
Mat 7:23; "And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.'

Tit 1:16; They profess to know God, but by their deeds they deny Him, being detestable and disobedient and worthless for any good deed.

Luk 13:25; "Once the head of the house gets up and shuts the door, and you begin to stand outside and knock on the door, saying, 'Lord, open up to us!' then He will answer and say to you, 'I do not know where you are from.'
Luk 13:26; "Then you will begin to say, 'We ate and drank in Your presence, and You taught in our streets';
Luk 13:27; and He will say, 'I tell you, I do not know where you are from; DEPART FROM ME, ALL YOU EVILDOERS.'
Luk 13:28; "In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth when you see Abraham and Isaac and Jacob and all the prophets in the kingdom of God, but yourselves being thrown out.

thank you Brother,

it was the 'think' part i was asking about,

The Bible says some people "think" they are saved, but they will find out differently.

as in, where in the Bible do we read that
"some people think...."?


Bless you ....><>

 

[B-A-C]

as in, where in the Bible do we read that
"some people think...."?

I don't "think" (believe) that exact phrase is there.
But what does the word delude mean?

A misguided belief.
I suppose I would be willing to concede that point...

instead of some people "think" they are saved.
Some people have the "misguided belief" they are saved.

 

[B-A-C]

Here are a few other translation.

James 1:22
(AMPC) But be doers of the Word [obey the message], and not merely listeners to it, betraying yourselves [into deception by reasoning contrary to the Truth].
(AMPC+) But be doers of the Word [obey the message], and not merely listeners to it, betraying yourselves [into deception by reasoning contrary to the Truth].
(ASV) But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deluding your own selves.
(BBE) But be doers of the word, and not only hearers of it, blinding yourselves with false ideas.
(CEV) Obey God's message! Don't fool yourselves by just listening to it.
(CSB) But be doers of the word and not hearers only, deceiving yourselves.
(ESV) But be doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving yourselves.
(ESV+) But be R14doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving yourselves.
(GNB) Do not deceive yourselves by just listening to his word; instead, put it into practice.
(Greek NT TR+) γινεσθεG1096 V-PNM-2P δεG1161 CONJ ποιηταιG4163 N-NPM λογουG3056 N-GSM καιG2532 CONJ μηG3361 PRT-N μονονG3440 ADV ακροαταιG202 N-NPM παραλογιζομενοιG3884 V-PNP-NPM εαυτουςG1438 F-2APM
(GW) Do what God's word says. Don't merely listen to it, or you will fool yourselves.
(HCSB) But be doers of the word and not hearers only, deceiving yourselves.
(ISV) Keep on being obedient to the word, and not merely being hearers who deceive themselves.
(KJV) But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.
(KJVA) But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.
(MKJV) But become doers of the Word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.
(MSG) Don't fool yourself into thinking that you are a listener when you are anything but, letting the Word go in one ear and out the other. Act on what you hear!
(NAS77) But prove yourselves doers of the word, and not merely hearers who delude themselves.
(NASB) But prove yourselves doers of the word, and not merely hearers who delude themselves.
(NIrV) Don't just listen to the word. You fool yourselves if you do that. You must do what it says.
(NIV) Do not merely listen to the word, and so deceive yourselves. Do what it says.
(NKJV) But be doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving yourselves.
(NLT) But don’t just listen to God’s word. You must do what it says. Otherwise, you are only fooling yourselves.
(RV) But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deluding your own selves.
(TPT) Don’t just listen to the Word of Truth and not respond to it, for that is the essence of self-deception. So always let his Word become like poetry written and fulfilled by your life!

Another common word here is "deceived".

de·ceive
/dəˈsēv/

Learn to pronounce


verb
past tense: deceived; past participle: deceived

1. (of a person) cause (someone) to believe something that is not true, typically in order to gain some personal advantage.
   "I didn't intend to deceive people into thinking it was French champagne"
   h
   Similar:
   swindle defraud cheat trick hoodwink hoax dupe take in mislead delude fool outwit misguide lead on
   inveigle seduce ensnare entrap

beguile


double-cross


gull


con


bamboozle


do


sting


gyp


diddle


rip off


shaft


bilk


rook


pull a fast one on


pull someone's leg


take for a ride

throw dust in someone's eyes


put one over on


take to the cleaners

fiddle


swizzle


sell a pup to

sucker


snooker


stiff


euchre


bunco


hornswoggle


pull a swifty on

cozen


sharp


mulct

• (of a thing) give a mistaken impression.
  "the area may seem to offer nothing of interest, but don't be deceived"
• fail to admit to oneself that something is true.
  "enabling the rulers to deceive themselves about the nature of their own rule"
  
  
  

 

[complete]

'Let no man deceive you with vain words:
for because of these things cometh the wrath of God
upon the children of disobedience.'
(Ephesians 5:6)

Hello @B-A-C,

As you will know, the epistle to the Ephesians was written to the 'saints' and 'faithful' believers in the Lord Jesus Christ in Ephesus primarily, and to those who could be so categorised in the assembles with whom the epistle was shared. Yet though thus characterised, Paul found it necessary to give them warning in Ephesians 5:1-21, that they were required to walk worthy of the Lord.

The believer's standing before God is sure in Christ Jesus their Lord: and the resurrection life promised will not be denied them; for the promises of God are without repentance. However, the reward of reigning with Christ can be lost: for what is built by the believer upon the one sure foundation that is laid, which is Christ, will be judged.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[B-A-C]

The believer's standing before God is sure in Christ Jesus their Lord: and the resurrection life promised will not be denied them; for the promises of God are without repentance. However, the reward of reigning with Christ can be lost: for what is built by the believer upon the one sure foundation that is laid, which is Christ, will be judged.

There is a lot of unscriptural presumption here.

 

[Br. Bear]

Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are His. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.

But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some to honour, and some to dishonour.
2Timothy 2:19-20


Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

What if God, willing to shew His wrath, and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: and that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had afore prepared unto glory, even us, whom He hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

As He saith also in Osee, I will call them My people, which were not My people; and her beloved, which was not beloved.

And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not My people; there shall they be called the children of the living God.
Romans 9:21-26

 

[Br. Bear]

Greetings,

hornswoggle

that's a new one to me!

Is that a bit like clanging symbols?

Another common word here is "deceived".

de·ceive

Interesting the closeness although perhaps opposite direction [?] with re-ceive. Same root-stock as far as words travel.
======

Thank you B-A-C @B-A-C for taking to time to clarify. It all helps.

It appears that there can be those who say they are 'saved' for whatever reason it might be and those who think they are saved, perhaps based on thinking that if they did this, or that, then they must be?

===========

Is there a definite knowing and if so, what is it and how does one know that they know?
============


Bless you ....><>

 

[complete]

Complete said:-
'Let no man deceive you with vain words:
for because of these things cometh the wrath of God
upon the children of disobedience.'
(Ephesians 5:6)

Hello @B-A-C,

As you will know, the epistle to the Ephesians was written to the 'saints' and 'faithful' believers in the Lord Jesus Christ in Ephesus primarily, and to those who could be so categorised in the assembles with whom the epistle was shared. Yet though thus characterised, Paul found it necessary to give them warning in Ephesians 5:1-21, that they were required to walk worthy of the Lord.

The believer's standing before God is sure in Christ Jesus their Lord: and the resurrection life promised will not be denied them; for the promises of God are without repentance. However, the reward of reigning with Christ can be lost: for what is built by the believer upon the one sure foundation that is laid, which is Christ, will be judged.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

There is a lot of unscriptural presumption here.

Perhaps you would tell me what unscriptural presumption I have made, @B-A-C.

* For Ephesians 1:1 tells us that the epistle was addressed to the 'saints' and 'faithful' at Ephesus.
* The warning of Ephesians 5:1-21 is a matter of record.
* The believer's standing before God is sure in Christ Jesus their Lord (Romans 5:10).
* Eternal life is a promise of God made to the believer. (2 Timothy 1:1)
* The gifts and calling of God are without repentance. (Romans 11:29)
* There is a reward that can be lost (Philippians 3:14)
* The sure foundation is Christ (1 Corinthians 3:11)
* What we build on that foundation will be judged (1 Corinthians 3:13-14)

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[Downunder]

Is there a definite knowing and if so, what is it and how does one know that they know?

James 1:19 Know this, my beloved brothers: let every person be quick to hear, slow to speak, slow to anger;
20 for the anger of man does not produce the righteousness of God.
21 Therefore put away all filthiness and rampant wickedness and receive with meekness the implanted word, which is able to save your souls.
22 But be doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving yourselves.
23 For if anyone is a hearer of the word and not a doer, he is like a man who looks intently at his natural face in a mirror.
24 For he looks at himself and goes away and at once forgets what he was like.
25 But the one who looks into the perfect law, the law of liberty, and perseveres, being no hearer who forgets but a doer who acts, he will be blessed in his doing.
26 If anyone thinks he is religious and does not bridle his tongue but deceives his heart, this person's religion is worthless.
27 Religion that is pure and undefiled before God the Father is this: to visit orphans and widows in their affliction, and to keep oneself unstained from the world.

 

[Downunder]

Is there a definite knowing and if so, what is it and how does one know that they know?

2Peter 1:5 For this very reason, make every effort to supplement your faith with virtue, and virtue with knowledge,
6 and knowledge with self-control, and self-control with steadfastness, and steadfastness with godliness,
7 and godliness with brotherly affection, and brotherly affection with love.
8 For if these qualities are yours and are increasing, they keep you from being ineffective or unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.
9 For whoever lacks these qualities is so nearsighted that he is blind, having forgotten that he was cleansed from his former sins.
10 Therefore, brothers, be all the more diligent to confirm your calling and election, for if you practice these qualities you will never fall.

 

[GodB4Us]

Eph 2:8; For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;
Eph 2:9; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.
Eph 2:10; For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.

This is the core verse of Calvinism. It's not a bad verse. I actually agree 100% with what is said here. But even so, it is one of the most misunderstood and even misquoted verses in the Bible.
It's a shame that a core doctrine is built on a single verse.

I agree we can't do enough good works to get saved. There is nothing I can do to pay for my sins except to die. The wages of sin is death. I sinned so I have to die.
But Jesus took our place. He died for us. He paid the price for our sins. This is the core of the gospel.
If it wasn't for Jesus, all the good works in the world wouldn't help me.

But there is a slight transition in this passage. I don't get saved by works, but yet after I'm saved, we were created "for good works" which God prepared for us to do.
Well many churches believe good works is wrong. Some believe it to the point so far that if I do any good thing, I'm going to hell. (Talk about getting your doctrine twisted up)

Most people quote this verse with the word "alone" in it. I have 18 Bible and none of them have the word "alone" in them in this verse.
But you often hear we are saved by "grace alone" or by "faith alone". This verse doesn't say alone anywhere. It says not by works.
There are many other things involved in the Christian walk that aren't works. Obedience to God/Jesus/the commandments isn't a good work. But it's still one of the other things that's required.
So even if I never did a good work, it wouldn't be "faith alone".

James seems to oppose this. But is this really the case? Let us take a look.

Jas 2:14; What use is it, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but he has no works? Can that faith save him?
Jas 2:20; But are you willing to recognize, you foolish fellow, that faith without works is useless?
Jas 2:24; You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.

When any one gloss over verses 15 & 16 for the actual faith James is referring to, many believers are far from understanding his words of rebuke towards the church disrespecting the poor.

James 2:14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?

15 If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food, 16 And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?

17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

James says works are required. But Paul says we aren't saved by works... so now what? Lets put them both in the same room and let them fight it out and see who wins.
But maybe this isn't the case. If I was going to add the word "alone" to Ephesians 2:9; as many people do. I would add it in a different spot.

Eph 2:9 not as a result of works alone, so that no one may boast.

I deliberately misquoted this verse to prove a point. First that adding a word changes everything, but second works aren't required to initially get saved. But they are required after you are saved.
How can I say that? So many churches teach just the opposite. Yes, I know what some churches teach. But what does the Bible teach?

Because there are more verses about how we are saved by believing in Jesus Christ ( John 3:7-18 & John 6:28-40 & 1 Corinthians 1:21 & Romans 3:26-28 & Romans 4:1-5 & Romans 10:8-17 ) is why you should doubt your added word, especially since you are using references from James in misapplying his words to make your case as if for Paul's actual message.

Hebrews 11 is called the "faith" chapter of the Bible. 1Corinthians 13 is called the "love" chapter of the Bible. Matthew 25 should be called the "works" chapter.

Matt 25:31; "But when the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the angels with Him, then He will sit on His glorious throne.
Matt 25:32; "All the nations will be gathered before Him; and He will separate them from one another, as the shepherd separates the sheep from the goats;
Matt 25:33; and He will put the sheep on His right, and the goats on the left.
Matt 25:34; "Then the King will say to those on His right, 'Come, you who are blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.
Matt 25:35; 'For I was hungry, and you gave Me something to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me something to drink; I was a stranger, and you invited Me in;
Matt 25:36; naked, and you clothed Me; I was sick, and you visited Me; I was in prison, and you came to Me.'
Matt 25:37; "Then the righteous will answer Him, 'Lord, when did we see You hungry, and feed You, or thirsty, and give You something to drink?
Matt 25:38; 'And when did we see You a stranger, and invite You in, or naked, and clothe You?
Matt 25:39; 'When did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?'
Matt 25:40; "The King will answer and say to them, 'Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did it to one of these brothers of Mine, even the least of them, you did it to Me.'
Matt 25:41; "Then He will also say to those on His left, 'Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels;
Matt 25:42; for I was hungry, and you gave Me nothing to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me nothing to drink;
Matt 25:43; I was a stranger, and you did not invite Me in; naked, and you did not clothe Me; sick, and in prison, and you did not visit Me.'
Matt 25:44; "Then they themselves also will answer, 'Lord, when did we see You hungry, or thirsty, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not take care of You?'
Matt 25:45; "Then He will answer them, 'Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.'
Matt 25:46; "These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."

Two groups of people. One group did no good works, the other group did. Which group is righteous, and which group goes away to eternal punishment?

Matt 25:14; "For it is just like a man about to go on a journey, who called his own slaves and entrusted his possessions to them.
Matt 25:15; "To one he gave five talents, to another, two, and to another, one, each according to his own ability; and he went on his journey.
Matt 25:16; "Immediately the one who had received the five talents went and traded with them, and gained five more talents.
Matt 25:17; "In the same manner the one who had received the two talents gained two more.
Matt 25:18; "But he who received the one talent went away, and dug a hole in the ground and hid his master's money.
Matt 25:19; "Now after a long time the master of those slaves *came and *settled accounts with them.
Matt 25:20; "The one who had received the five talents came up and brought five more talents, saying, 'Master, you entrusted five talents to me. See, I have gained five more talents.'
Matt 25:21; "His master said to him, 'Well done, good and faithful slave. You were faithful with a few things, I will put you in charge of many things; enter into the joy of your master.'
Matt 25:22; "Also the one who had received the two talents came up and said, 'Master, you entrusted two talents to me. See, I have gained two more talents.'
Matt 25:23; "His master said to him, 'Well done, good and faithful slave. You were faithful with a few things, I will put you in charge of many things; enter into the joy of your master.'
Matt 25:24; "And the one also who had received the one talent came up and said, 'Master, I knew you to be a hard man, reaping where you did not sow and gathering where you scattered no seed.
Matt 25:25; 'And I was afraid, and went away and hid your talent in the ground. See, you have what is yours.'
Matt 25:26; "But his master answered and said to him, 'You wicked, lazy slave, you knew that I reap where I did not sow and gather where I scattered no seed.
Matt 25:27; 'Then you ought to have put my money in the bank, and on my arrival I would have received my money back with interest.
Matt 25:28; 'Therefore take away the talent from him, and give it to the one who has the ten talents.'
Matt 25:29; "For to everyone who has, more shall be given, and he will have an abundance; but from the one who does not have, even what he does have shall be taken away.
Matt 25:30; "Throw out the worthless slave into the outer darkness; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Three servants in the Master's house here. Two of them did things with with what the Master (Jesus) gave to them. They invested what He gave them, increased it,
and He says well done... good and faithful.
The third one, he didn't do anything with what Jesus gave him. He buried it in the ground. He didn't work to increase it in anyway.
Jesus calls Him "wicked and lazy". Jesus says throw him out.

So what is the difference between a good and faithful servant, and a wicked and lazy servant?

... to be continued ...

I submit to you, brother, this solemn truth that scriptures still addresses the ones that did bad as His servants/slaves as these servants/slaves did address Him as their Master.

If you go back to the parable of the ten virgins in how they are the kingdom of heaven in Matthew 25:1 of Matthew 25:1-13, you will see that all ten are the kingdom of heaven as being in it, but five missed out on the Marriage Supper when the Bridegroom had come but still in that kingdom of heaven. Note that?

If you say "What?!!" Look at Matthew 5:19 where the least are in the kingdom of heaven but they are to be called least for breaking even the least of His commandments and teaching others so. Breaking any of His commandments is committing an iniquity, correct? And so any unrepentant iniquity that is on that foundation wen the Bridegroom comes is what denies Him per Titus 1:16 & defiles the temple of God 1 Corinthians 3:16-17 but they are saved 1 Corinthians 3:15 in that day 1 Corinthians 3:13 even though castaways as left behind into the coming great tribulation for not departing from iniquity ( Revelation 2:18-25 ) for why there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth over the loss of being partakers of the first fruits of the resurrection, but even though they will die ( 1 Corinthians 5:4-5 ) their spirits will be with the Lord in Heaven ( 2 Corinthians 5:7-11 & Revelation 6:9-11 ) for why God will wipe the tears from their eyes after they are resurrected after the great tribulation ( Revelation 7:9-17 & Revelation 20:1-6 ) to be damned as vessels into dishonor in His House for not departing from iniquity before the Bridegroom had come ( 2 Timothy 2:18-21 ) whereby even former believers are still His even after being denied by Him for He is faith because He still abides in them and all those saints left behind ( 2 Timothy 2:11-13 ) for He shall lose none of all the Father has given Him ( John 6:37-40 ).

That is how and why there are "least" in the kingdom of heaven and why there are vessels unto dishonor in His House that did not depart from iniquity before the Bridegroom had come for how they winded up that way forever, not that they will continue to break His commandments & teach others so nor live in unrepentant iniquity of any kind, including as a former believer, because they will all be restored to the path of righteousness for His name's sake but as the last in the kingdom of heaven and as vessels unto dishonor in His House, testifying to the power of God in salvation for all who believe in Jesus Christ, even in His name ( John 1:12-13 ) .

So do not confuse salvation without works for discipleship which we shall be judged by what was built on that foundation by our works because if one runs that race to obtain salvation by works, then by that work, you deny Him as Savior for having saved you since having believed in Him to be saved. Him having saved you since believing in Him is how you are in that race in the first place for the high prize of our calling to be that vessel unto honor in His House at the pre great tribulation rapture event when God judges His House first before He comes back with the pre raptured saints to judge the world as the King of kings per Zechariah 14:1-5 in establishing His kingdom on earth for His 1000 years reign.

@Downunder Doug @Br. Bear @complete @Butch5 @Cactus Kitten

 

[complete]

When any one gloss over verses 15 & 16 for the actual faith James is referring to, many believers are far from understanding his words of rebuke towards the church disrespecting the poor.​

​

James 2:14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?​

​

15 If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food, 16 And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?​

​

17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.​

Because there are more verses about how we are saved by believing in Jesus Christ ( John 3:7-18 & John 6:28-40 & 1 Corinthians 1:21 & Romans 3:26-28 & Romans 4:1-5 & Romans 10:8-17 ) is why you should doubt your added word, especially since you are using references from James in misapplying his words to make your case as if for Paul's actual message.

I submit to you, brother, this solemn truth that scriptures still addresses the ones that did bad as His servants/slaves as these servants/slaves did address Him as their Master.

If you go back to the parable of the ten virgins in how they are the kingdom of heaven in Matthew 25:1 of Matthew 25:1-13, you will see that all ten are the kingdom of heaven as being in it, but five missed out on the Marriage Supper when the Bridegroom had come but still in that kingdom of heaven. Note that?

If you say "What?!!" Look at Matthew 5:19 where the least are in the kingdom of heaven but they are to be called least for breaking even the least of His commandments and teaching others so. Breaking any of His commandments is committing an iniquity, correct? And so any unrepentant iniquity that is on that foundation when the Bridegroom comes is what denies Him per Titus 1:16 & defiles the temple of God 1 Corinthians 3:16-17 but they are saved 1 Corinthians 3:15 in that day 1 Corinthians 3:13 even though castaways as left behind into the coming great tribulation for not departing from iniquity ( Revelation 2:18-25 ) for why there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth over the loss of being partakers of the first fruits of the resurrection, but even though they will die ( 1 Corinthians 5:4-5 ) their spirits will be with the Lord in Heaven ( 2 Corinthians 5:7-11 & Revelation 6:9-11 ) for why God will wipe the tears from their eyes after they are resurrected after the great tribulation ( Revelation 7:9-17 & Revelation 20:1-6 ) to be damned as vessels into dishonor in His House for not departing from iniquity before the Bridegroom had come ( 2 Timothy 2:18-21 ) whereby even former believers are still His even after being denied by Him for He is faith because He still abides in them and all those saints left behind ( 2 Timothy 2:11-13 ) for He shall lose none of all the Father has given Him ( John 6:37-40 ).

That is how and why there are "least" in the kingdom of heaven and why there are vessels unto dishonor in His House that did not depart from iniquity before the Bridegroom had come for how they winded up that way forever, not that they will continue to break His commandments & teach others so nor live in unrepentant iniquity of any kind, including as a former believer, because they will all be restored to the path of righteousness for His name's sake but as the last in the kingdom of heaven and as vessels unto dishonor in His House, testifying to the power of God in salvation for all who believe in Jesus Christ, even in His name ( John 1:12-13 ) .

So do not confuse salvation without works for discipleship which we shall be judged by what was built on that foundation by our works because if one runs that race to obtain salvation by works, then by that work, you deny Him as Savior for having saved you since having believed in Him to be saved. Him having saved you since believing in Him is how you are in that race in the first place for the high prize of our calling to be that vessel unto honor in His House at the pre great tribulation rapture event when God judges His House first before He comes back with the pre raptured saints to judge the world as the King of kings per Zechariah 14:1-5 in establishing His kingdom on earth for His 1000 years reign.

@Downunder Doug @Br. Bear @complete @Butch5 @Cactus Kitten

Hello @GodB4Us,

Thank you for including me in your discussion, but, with respect, I cannot follow your reasoning. It may be simply that your means of expression is foreign to me, I don't know, but I can't get to grips with your train of thought.

Forgive me
In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[GodB4Us]

Hello @GodB4Us,

Thank you for including me in your discussion, but, with respect, I cannot follow your reasoning. It may be simply that your means of expression is foreign to me, I don't know, but I can't get to grips with your train of thought.

Forgive me
In Christ Jesus
Chris

Ask Jesus then. Jesus helps me understand where the other person is coming from for how He supplies scripture for me to share the reproof as well as for the edification, even though it is still on Him to cause the increase or not.

 

[Truth_seeker2022]

Eph 2:8; For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;
Eph 2:9; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.
Eph 2:10; For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.

This is the core verse of Calvinism. It's not a bad verse. I actually agree 100% with what is said here. But even so, it is one of the most misunderstood and even misquoted verses in the Bible.
It's a shame that a core doctrine is built on a single verse.

I agree we can't do enough good works to get saved. There is nothing I can do to pay for my sins except to die. The wages of sin is death. I sinned so I have to die.
But Jesus took our place. He died for us. He paid the price for our sins. This is the core of the gospel.
If it wasn't for Jesus, all the good works in the world wouldn't help me.

But there is a slight transition in this passage. I don't get saved by works, but yet after I'm saved, we were created "for good works" which God prepared for us to do.
Well many churches believe good works is wrong. Some believe it to the point so far that if I do any good thing, I'm going to hell. (Talk about getting your doctrine twisted up)

Most people quote this verse with the word "alone" in it. I have 18 Bible and none of them have the word "alone" in them in this verse.
But you often hear we are saved by "grace alone" or by "faith alone". This verse doesn't say alone anywhere. It says not by works.
There are many other things involved in the Christian walk that aren't works. Obedience to God/Jesus/the commandments isn't a good work. But it's still one of the other things that's required.
So even if I never did a good work, it wouldn't be "faith alone".

James seems to oppose this. But is this really the case? Let us take a look.

Jas 2:14; What use is it, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but he has no works? Can that faith save him?
Jas 2:20; But are you willing to recognize, you foolish fellow, that faith without works is useless?
Jas 2:24; You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.

James says works are required. But Paul says we aren't saved by works... so now what? Lets put them both in the same room and let them fight it out and see who wins.
But maybe this isn't the case. If I was going to add the word "alone" to Ephesians 2:9; as many people do. I would add it in a different spot.

Eph 2:9 not as a result of works alone, so that no one may boast.

I deliberately misquoted this verse to prove a point. First that adding a word changes everything, but second works aren't required to initially get saved. But they are required after you are saved.
How can I say that? So many churches teach just the opposite. Yes, I know what some churches teach. But what does the Bible teach?

Hebrews 11 is called the "faith" chapter of the Bible. 1Corinthians 13 is called the "love" chapter of the Bible. Matthew 25 should be called the "works" chapter.

Matt 25:31; "But when the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the angels with Him, then He will sit on His glorious throne.
Matt 25:32; "All the nations will be gathered before Him; and He will separate them from one another, as the shepherd separates the sheep from the goats;
Matt 25:33; and He will put the sheep on His right, and the goats on the left.
Matt 25:34; "Then the King will say to those on His right, 'Come, you who are blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.
Matt 25:35; 'For I was hungry, and you gave Me something to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me something to drink; I was a stranger, and you invited Me in;
Matt 25:36; naked, and you clothed Me; I was sick, and you visited Me; I was in prison, and you came to Me.'
Matt 25:37; "Then the righteous will answer Him, 'Lord, when did we see You hungry, and feed You, or thirsty, and give You something to drink?
Matt 25:38; 'And when did we see You a stranger, and invite You in, or naked, and clothe You?
Matt 25:39; 'When did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?'
Matt 25:40; "The King will answer and say to them, 'Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did it to one of these brothers of Mine, even the least of them, you did it to Me.'
Matt 25:41; "Then He will also say to those on His left, 'Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels;
Matt 25:42; for I was hungry, and you gave Me nothing to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me nothing to drink;
Matt 25:43; I was a stranger, and you did not invite Me in; naked, and you did not clothe Me; sick, and in prison, and you did not visit Me.'
Matt 25:44; "Then they themselves also will answer, 'Lord, when did we see You hungry, or thirsty, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not take care of You?'
Matt 25:45; "Then He will answer them, 'Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.'
Matt 25:46; "These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."

Two groups of people. One group did no good works, the other group did. Which group is righteous, and which group goes away to eternal punishment?

Matt 25:14; "For it is just like a man about to go on a journey, who called his own slaves and entrusted his possessions to them.
Matt 25:15; "To one he gave five talents, to another, two, and to another, one, each according to his own ability; and he went on his journey.
Matt 25:16; "Immediately the one who had received the five talents went and traded with them, and gained five more talents.
Matt 25:17; "In the same manner the one who had received the two talents gained two more.
Matt 25:18; "But he who received the one talent went away, and dug a hole in the ground and hid his master's money.
Matt 25:19; "Now after a long time the master of those slaves *came and *settled accounts with them.
Matt 25:20; "The one who had received the five talents came up and brought five more talents, saying, 'Master, you entrusted five talents to me. See, I have gained five more talents.'
Matt 25:21; "His master said to him, 'Well done, good and faithful slave. You were faithful with a few things, I will put you in charge of many things; enter into the joy of your master.'
Matt 25:22; "Also the one who had received the two talents came up and said, 'Master, you entrusted two talents to me. See, I have gained two more talents.'
Matt 25:23; "His master said to him, 'Well done, good and faithful slave. You were faithful with a few things, I will put you in charge of many things; enter into the joy of your master.'
Matt 25:24; "And the one also who had received the one talent came up and said, 'Master, I knew you to be a hard man, reaping where you did not sow and gathering where you scattered no seed.
Matt 25:25; 'And I was afraid, and went away and hid your talent in the ground. See, you have what is yours.'
Matt 25:26; "But his master answered and said to him, 'You wicked, lazy slave, you knew that I reap where I did not sow and gather where I scattered no seed.
Matt 25:27; 'Then you ought to have put my money in the bank, and on my arrival I would have received my money back with interest.
Matt 25:28; 'Therefore take away the talent from him, and give it to the one who has the ten talents.'
Matt 25:29; "For to everyone who has, more shall be given, and he will have an abundance; but from the one who does not have, even what he does have shall be taken away.
Matt 25:30; "Throw out the worthless slave into the outer darkness; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Three servants in the Master's house here. Two of them did things with with what the Master (Jesus) gave to them. They invested what He gave them, increased it,
and He says well done... good and faithful.
The third one, he didn't do anything with what Jesus gave him. He buried it in the ground. He didn't work to increase it in anyway.
Jesus calls Him "wicked and lazy". Jesus says throw him out.

So what is the difference between a good and faithful servant, and a wicked and lazy servant?

... to be continued ...

So in violation of Ephesians 2:9 you are planning to boast about your works before God?

How are you going to prove you have saving faith to others by proving you don't lust in your heart which is adultery?