The "elect"

[complete]

Ok, point taken. However, I still see no evidence to suggest being grafted onto Israel changed.

Let me ask you, do you hold to a dispensationalist theology?

Hello @Buch5,

The way we express ourselves reveals the influences we have received. I do take into account the various administrations of God, revealed in Scripture, before applying the word of God to myself, for I believe that although all Scripture is for us, not all is about us.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[Butch5]

'Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father,
through sanctification of the Spirit,
unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ:
Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.'
(1Pet.1:2 )

Hello @Butch5,

I quite agree with what you say concerning this verse and to whom it is referring, because Peter was writing to the circumcision, who were scattered among the nations.
I also have no problem with your last paragraph. Yet you appear to have forgotten that you previously insisted that the term, 'the elect' referred to Israel only.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

When referring to God's people. Not every single time the word is used.

 

[Butch5]

Hello @Butch5,

I believe I have already have done so.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

I'm sorry. I must have missed it?

Definition of and
(Entry 1 of 2)
1—used as a function word to indicate connection or addition especially of items within the same class or type —used to join sentence elements of the same grammatical rank or function

I believe that's how I used it. Connection or addition. In order to connect we have to have more than one group.

 

[Butch5]

'But rise, and stand upon thy feet:
for I have appeared unto thee for this purpose,
to make thee a minister and a witness
both of these things which thou hast seen,
and of those things in the which I will appear unto thee;'
(Act 26:16)

Hello @Butch5,

I know because the content of the epistle to the Ephesians tells me so. It tells me that it's contents had been, 'hid in God since the world began' (Ephesians 3:9). Paul also says in Ephesians chapter 3 that as the Prisoner of Christ Jesus, he had been given a 'dispensation' of God, and that God had made known unto Him the mystery. Then, as an aside, he qualifies this by referring to 'the mystery of Christ' which had been made known, not only to Himself, but to the other Apostles and Prophets. The mystery of Christ had been the subject of the Old Testament Prophets, but which had been revealed to them to minister it. This they had been doing, and Paul refers to this, in order to qualify his claim to have received a further revelation, made to him alone, concerning the mystery, which had been hid in God, and was therefore 'unsearchable': not being the subject of the Old Testament Prophets, to whom it had not been revealed,. This He proceeds to describe:-

'That the Gentiles should be fellow-heirs,
and of the same body, and partakers of His promise in Christ
by the gospel: Whereof I was made a minister,
according to the gift of the grace of God given unto me by the effectual working of His power.
Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given,
that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ;
And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery,
which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God,
who created all things by Jesus Christ:
To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places
might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God,'
(Eph 3:8-10)

* Ephesians, Philippians, Colossians and 1 & 2 Timothy and Titus, contain further truth concerning this further ministry of Paul, received from the risen Christ, Who appeared unto Him as promised in the verse which heads this response. That Christ was 'in' (or 'among') them - the Gentiles, salvation having been sent to them (Acts 28:28.

* A comparison of what Paul had been preaching, prior to this revelation as revealed in these epistles, will confirm the unique nature of what Paul administers here. See for example the conversation Paul had with the Ephesians elders, prior to his journey to Jerusalem where prison awaited Him in Acts 20, for there he lists what he had preached to them, telling then that he had given them 'all the council of God' that he himself had received to date; and the content of Ephesians will be noted for it's absence. Therefore the revelation he was given, had to have followed that conversation, otherwise he could not have said in all honesty that he had given then all the council of God. No, there was more to be revealed, but he had not yet received it from the risen Christ.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

Here's what Paul wrote.

2 If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward:
3 How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words,
4 Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)
5 Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit; (Eph. 3:2-5 KJV)

You said the revelation was given to Paul when he wrote Ephesians, yet Paul writes that he had previously written to them about this revelation. He said the mystery was,

That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel: (Eph. 3:6 KJV)

He said that this mystery was made known to the Apostles and prophets. Well, before Paul was converted and sent out, the other apostles had already been sent to the Gentiles.

19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: 20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen. (Matt. 28:1 KJV)

Literally, all ethnicities. So how exactly was this revelation only given to Paul?

 

[Butch5]

For those who are interested, here is another commentary on Ephesians 1:3-14 which goes into more depth.

 

[B-A-C]

It's interesting that Jesus said He only came for the Jews.

Matt 15:22; And a Canaanite woman from that region came out and began to cry out, saying, "Have mercy on me, Lord, Son of David; my daughter is cruelly demon-possessed."
Matt 15:23; But He did not answer her a word. And His disciples came and implored Him, saying, "Send her away, because she keeps shouting at us."
Matt 15:24; But He answered and said, "I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel."
Matt 15:25; But she came and began to bow down before Him, saying, "Lord, help me!"
Matt 15:26; And He answered and said, "It is not good to take the children's bread and throw it to the dogs."
Matt 15:27; But she said, "Yes, Lord; but even the dogs feed on the crumbs which fall from their masters' table."
Matt 15:28; Then Jesus said to her, "O woman, your faith is great; it shall be done for you as you wish." And her daughter was healed at once.

But yet, even though the woman in this story wasn't a Jew, Jesus helped her because of her faith.

Matt 8:5; And when Jesus entered Capernaum, a centurion came to Him, imploring Him,
Matt 8:6; and saying, "Lord, my servant is lying paralyzed at home, fearfully tormented."
Matt 8:7; Jesus *said to him, "I will come and heal him."
Matt 8:8; But the centurion said, "Lord, I am not worthy for You to come under my roof, but just say the word, and my servant will be healed.
Matt 8:9; "For I also am a man under authority, with soldiers under me; and I say to this one, 'Go!' and he goes, and to another, 'Come!' and he comes, and to my slave, 'Do this!' and he does it."
Matt 8:10; Now when Jesus heard this, He marveled and said to those who were following, "Truly I say to you, I have not found such great faith with anyone in Israel.
Matt 8:11; "I say to you that many will come from east and west, and recline at the table with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven;
Matt 8:12; but the sons of the kingdom will be cast out into the outer darkness; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth."
Matt 8:13; And Jesus said to the centurion, "Go; it shall be done for you as you have believed." And the servant was healed that very moment.

Again, a Gentile asks Jesus for help, it says Jesus "marvelled" ( some Bibles says "Amazed, Astonished", or "Surprised" )
Jesus says this man had greater faith than anyone in Israel.

So how do we take this "Jesus only came for the Jews" message? If Jesus is only for the Jews, then we Gentiles need to find another Savior.
But often in Jesus's preaching, He spoke of the Gentiles as well.

Matt 25:31; "But when the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the angels with Him, then He will sit on His glorious throne.
Matt 25:32; "All the nations will be gathered before Him; and He will separate them from one another, as the shepherd separates the sheep from the goats;
Matt 25:33; and He will put the sheep on His right, and the goats on the left.

... "all the nations"... Hmmm... what does that mean? It means everyone in every country. Not just the Jews.
Now perhaps Jesus was only speaking to the disciples here (they were Jews) but He was speaking about "all the nations".
So all the things that separate the sheep from the goats in Matthew 25, apply to Gentiles as well as Jews.

 

[complete]

When referring to God's people. Not every single time the word is used.

Hello @Butch5,

Thank you for making that clear.

In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[complete]

I'm sorry. I must have missed it?

Definition of and
(Entry 1 of 2)
1—used as a function word to indicate connection or addition especially of items within the same class or type —used to join sentence elements of the same grammatical rank or function

I believe that's how I used it. Connection or addition. In order to connect we have to have more than one group.

Hello @Buch5,

Thank you, I will look at Ephesians 1, with that in mind and come back to you.

In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[complete]

Here's what Paul wrote.

2 If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward:
3 How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words,
4 Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)
5 Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit; (Eph. 3:2-5 KJV)

You said the revelation was given to Paul when he wrote Ephesians, yet Paul writes that he had previously written to them about this revelation. He said the mystery was,

That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel: (Eph. 3:6 KJV)

He said that this mystery was made known to the Apostles and prophets. Well, before Paul was converted and sent out, the other apostles had already been sent to the Gentiles.

19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: 20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen. (Matt. 28:1 KJV)

Literally, all ethnicities. So how exactly was this revelation only given to Paul?

Hello @Butch5,

Yes, the revelation concerning the fellowship of the mystery (Eph. 3:9) which he received, Paul administers via the epistles to the Ephesians, Philippians, Colossians, 1 & 2 Timothy, Titus and Philemon.

The mystery of Christ which was revealed to the holy apostles and prophets, including Paul, had been made known by them and him during his ministry to date; that revelation, like the gospel of God concerning His Son described in Romans 1:1-5, was the subject of the Old Testament prophets, and therefore verifiable. However, the revelation concerning the fellowship of the mystery which was revealed to Paul alone, is described as 'the unsearchable riches of Christ (Eph.1:8)', because it had been 'hid in God' since the world began (Eph. 3:9) and was not therefore the subject of the Old Testament prophets. It was that Christ was 'in' (or among) them (the Gentiles), and therefore their hope of glory, for salvation had now been sent to them (Acts 28:28), independent of Israel. Their 'hope of glory' was no longer as part of Israel, but was theirs both in and through Christ as the Head of the Body of which they were now part.

I hope this makes sense to you.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
our risen and glorified
Saviour, Lord and Head.
Chris

 

[complete]

It's interesting that Jesus said He only came for the Jews.

Matt 15:22; And a Canaanite woman from that region came out and began to cry out, saying, "Have mercy on me, Lord, Son of David; my daughter is cruelly demon-possessed."
Matt 15:23; But He did not answer her a word. And His disciples came and implored Him, saying, "Send her away, because she keeps shouting at us."
Matt 15:24; But He answered and said, "I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel."
Matt 15:25; But she came and began to bow down before Him, saying, "Lord, help me!"
Matt 15:26; And He answered and said, "It is not good to take the children's bread and throw it to the dogs."
Matt 15:27; But she said, "Yes, Lord; but even the dogs feed on the crumbs which fall from their masters' table."
Matt 15:28; Then Jesus said to her, "O woman, your faith is great; it shall be done for you as you wish." And her daughter was healed at once.

But yet, even though the woman in this story wasn't a Jew, Jesus helped her because of her faith.

Matt 8:5; And when Jesus entered Capernaum, a centurion came to Him, imploring Him,
Matt 8:6; and saying, "Lord, my servant is lying paralyzed at home, fearfully tormented."
Matt 8:7; Jesus *said to him, "I will come and heal him."
Matt 8:8; But the centurion said, "Lord, I am not worthy for You to come under my roof, but just say the word, and my servant will be healed.
Matt 8:9; "For I also am a man under authority, with soldiers under me; and I say to this one, 'Go!' and he goes, and to another, 'Come!' and he comes, and to my slave, 'Do this!' and he does it."
Matt 8:10; Now when Jesus heard this, He marveled and said to those who were following, "Truly I say to you, I have not found such great faith with anyone in Israel.
Matt 8:11; "I say to you that many will come from east and west, and recline at the table with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven;
Matt 8:12; but the sons of the kingdom will be cast out into the outer darkness; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth."
Matt 8:13; And Jesus said to the centurion, "Go; it shall be done for you as you have believed." And the servant was healed that very moment.

Again, a Gentile asks Jesus for help, it says Jesus "marvelled" ( some Bibles says "Amazed, Astonished", or "Surprised" )
Jesus says this man had greater faith than anyone in Israel.

So how do we take this "Jesus only came for the Jews" message? If Jesus is only for the Jews, then we Gentiles need to find another Savior.
But often in Jesus's preaching, He spoke of the Gentiles as well.

Matt 25:31; "But when the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the angels with Him, then He will sit on His glorious throne.
Matt 25:32; "All the nations will be gathered before Him; and He will separate them from one another, as the shepherd separates the sheep from the goats;
Matt 25:33; and He will put the sheep on His right, and the goats on the left.

... "all the nations"... Hmmm... what does that mean? It means everyone in every country. Not just the Jews.
Now perhaps Jesus was only speaking to the disciples here (they were Jews) but He was speaking about "all the nations".
So all the things that separate the sheep from the goats in Matthew 25, apply to Gentiles as well as Jews.

'Now I say that Jesus Christ was a minister of the circumcision for the truth of God,
to confirm the promises made unto the fathers:
And that the Gentiles might glorify God for His mercy; as it is written,
'For this cause I will confess to Thee among the Gentiles, and sing unto Thy name.''
(Rom 15:8)

Hello @B-A-C,

The verse above tells us one aspect of why Christ came into the world at His first advent, He also came to destroy the works of the Devil, and to finish the Father's work of redemption among other things.

Matthew 25:31 that you quote, refers to His second coming, doesn't it? When he will come as Judge. For God has given all judgment to the Son, for He is the Son of Man as well as Son of God, and therefore knows the secrets of men's hearts, so can judge justly. He will judge the nations yes, but Israel is never to be counted among the nations, for they are a nation apart. (Numbers 23:9). That is why a distinction is made between Jews and Gentiles (nations).

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[complete]

deleted

 

[B-A-C]

We are "mostly" saying the same thing, but I believe the Jews and Gentiles will be judged the same way, at the same time, by the same standards.

Rom 2:12; When the Gentiles sin, they will be destroyed, even though they never had God’s written law. And the Jews, who do have God’s law, will be judged by that law when they fail to obey it.
Rom 2:13; For merely listening to the law doesn’t make us right with God. It is obeying the law that makes us right in his sight.
Rom 2:14; Even Gentiles, who do not have God’s written law, show that they know his law when they instinctively obey it, even without having heard it.
Rom 2:15; They demonstrate that God’s law is written in their hearts, for their own conscience and thoughts either accuse them or tell them they are doing right.
Rom 2:16; And this is the message I proclaim—that the day is coming when God, through Christ Jesus, will judge everyone’s secret life.
Rom 2:17; You who call yourselves Jews are relying on God’s law, and you boast about your special relationship with him.
Rom 2:18; You know what he wants; you know what is right because you have been taught his law.
Rom 2:19; You are convinced that you are a guide for the blind and a light for people who are lost in darkness.
Rom 2:20; You think you can instruct the ignorant and teach children the ways of God. For you are certain that God’s law gives you complete knowledge and truth.
Rom 2:21; Well then, if you teach others, why don’t you teach yourself? You tell others not to steal, but do you steal?
Rom 2:22; You say it is wrong to commit adultery, but do you commit adultery? You condemn idolatry, but do you use items stolen from pagan temples?
Rom 2:23; You are so proud of knowing the law, but you dishonor God by breaking it.
Rom 2:24; No wonder the Scriptures say, “The Gentiles blaspheme the name of God because of you.”
Rom 2:25; The Jewish ceremony of circumcision has value only if you obey God’s law. But if you don’t obey God’s law, you are no better off than an uncircumcised Gentile.
Rom 2:26; And if the Gentiles obey God’s law, won’t God declare them to be his own people?
Rom 2:27; In fact, uncircumcised Gentiles who keep God’s law will condemn you Jews who are circumcised and possess God’s law but don’t obey it.
Rom 2:28; For you are not a true Jew just because you were born of Jewish parents or because you have gone through the ceremony of circumcision.
Rom 2:29; No, a true Jew is one whose heart is right with God. And true circumcision is not merely obeying the letter of the law; rather, it is a change of heart produced by the Spirit. And a person with a changed heart seeks praise from God, not from people.

The verse above tells us one aspect of why Christ came into the world at His first advent, He also came to destroy the works of the Devil, and to finish the Father's work of redemption among other things.

Total agreement here. (There is more, to testify to the truth, among other things),

 

[complete]

Here's what Paul wrote.

2 If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward:
3 How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words,
4 Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)
5 Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit; (Eph. 3:2-5 KJV)

You said the revelation was given to Paul when he wrote Ephesians, yet Paul writes that he had previously written to them about this revelation. He said the mystery was,

That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel: (Eph. 3:6 KJV)

He said that this mystery was made known to the Apostles and prophets. Well, before Paul was converted and sent out, the other apostles had already been sent to the Gentiles.

19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: 20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen. (Matt. 28:1 KJV)

Literally, all ethnicities. So how exactly was this revelation only given to Paul?

Hello @Butch5,

Yes the revelation concerning the mystery was given to Paul prior to his writing of the epistles written from prison, which are Ephesians, Philippians, Colossians, 1 & 2 Timothy, Titus and Philemon.

The extraordinary revelation of grace revealed in the opening two chapters by Paul, requires some explanation on his part as to how they were received. For they were not the subject of his earlier epistles, having been 'hid in God' since the world began. Let's look at them a moment:-

The blessings promise are unique - 'every blessing that is spiritual'.
The sphere of their enjoying is unique - 'In heavenly places'.
The period of choice is unique - 'Before the overthrow of the world'.
The position is unique - 'Made to sit together in heavenly places'.
The unity is unique - 'The twain created one new man.'


* The unique nature of the above indicate a change of dispensation, and that is what Paul goes on to explain in chapter 3. Ephesians 3:1-13 is devoted to the revelation and the explanation of the dispensation of the Mystery. The opening word, 'For this cause', show that the Apostle was about to make a deduction and an application of what he had just been saying about the 'habitation of God in spirit' (Eph. 2:22), but it is evident that at the close of verse one, some necessity compelled him to postpone the teaching that he had in mind because of the need to give a fuller explanation. The words, 'for this cause' are repeated in verse fourteen, and the subject resumed.

* Ephesians 3:2-13 there fore is a great parenthesis. However, to be accurate, we should call the inserted verses (Eph. 3:2-13) a parembole, for words in a parenthesis are not complete in themselves, but words in a parembole are.

* The Apostle paused to explain his claim inherent in the words, 'I Paul, the prisoner of Christ Jesus for you Gentiles' (3:1). It was no new thing for Paul's name to be intimately associated with the Gentiles, for at his conversion he was described as a chosen vessel to bear the name of the Lord 'before the Gentiles' (Acts 9:15) and in Romans 11:13 he declares himself to be 'the Apostle of the Gentiles', a claim already recognized by Peter, James and John (Gal. 2:8-9). It was the connexion of Paul's imprisonment with the Gentile, that introduced the claim that demanded explanation. He was the prisoner of Christ Jesus for the Gentiles, and it is the 'prison ministry' that he had entered into that needed explanation.

* It is evident that Paul has come to the end of one ministry, and is now facing another in Acts 20, verses 18-21 are his own survey of the ministry that was closing, and verses 22-24 an anticipation of the ministry that awaited him. This would have been no surprise to Paul, because he had been told by his risen Lord, on the road to Damascus (Acts 26:15 & 9:5) 'I am Jesus Whom thou persecutest'. 'But arise, and stand upon thy feet: for I have appeared unto thee for this purpose, to make thee a minister and a witness both of these things which thou hast seen, and of those things in the which I will appear unto thee; Delivering thee from the people, and from the Gentiles, unto whom now I send thee' (Acts 26:16-17)

* The words, 'I have appeared ' and 'I will appear' reveal two appearings; and the words, 'both of these things,' and, 'of those things,' reveal two ministries; and 'which thou hast seen' and 'will appear,' reveal two revelations. In Acts 9, Paul knew that he had a twofold ministry, and he realized that the second ministry would be associated with prison and particularly directed towards the Gentiles. The hope of Israel, being suspended while Israel is blinded, and a new aspect of hope is revealed.

* After claiming to be, 'the prisoner of the Lord for you Gentiles', he sets out to substantiate that claim. A 'dispensation' was used of a Steward. Paul claims to be a 'steward of the mysteries of God' in 1 Cor. 4:1-2.

* Ephesians 3:4-8 is occupied with two mysteries and not one. There is 'the Mystery of Christ', shared by the Apostles and prophets of the New Testament times, with those who were taught of God in earliest days; and there is The Mystery itself, which was revealed to Paul alone. The Mystery of Christ has been unfolded in the Scriptures since Genesis 3:15, when the promise of the coming 'Seed' was made to our first parents; the Mystery of the present dispensation is called 'unsearchable', no trace of these riches being found in earliest writing because 'hid in God'.

* As to your question concerning Paul's reference to having, 'written afore in few words', I believe he referred to what was written prior to chapter three in that epistle to Ephesians. However, Paul had been receiving visitors while in prison for a year before writing this epistle, and with every visit you can be sure that he would have been proclaiming this new revelation to all who came, who would have taken his words back with them to their separate assemblies. So this would have been known by many of his associates by that means, prior to his writing his letters from prison.

Forgive this lengthy post.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[complete]

We are "mostly" saying the same thing, but I believe the Jews and Gentiles will be judged the same way, at the same time, by the same standards.

Rom 2:12; When the Gentiles sin, they will be destroyed, even though they never had God’s written law. And the Jews, who do have God’s law, will be judged by that law when they fail to obey it.
Rom 2:13; For merely listening to the law doesn’t make us right with God. It is obeying the law that makes us right in his sight.
Rom 2:14; Even Gentiles, who do not have God’s written law, show that they know his law when they instinctively obey it, even without having heard it.
Rom 2:15; They demonstrate that God’s law is written in their hearts, for their own conscience and thoughts either accuse them or tell them they are doing right.
Rom 2:16; And this is the message I proclaim—that the day is coming when God, through Christ Jesus, will judge everyone’s secret life.
Rom 2:17; You who call yourselves Jews are relying on God’s law, and you boast about your special relationship with him.
Rom 2:18; You know what he wants; you know what is right because you have been taught his law.
Rom 2:19; You are convinced that you are a guide for the blind and a light for people who are lost in darkness.
Rom 2:20; You think you can instruct the ignorant and teach children the ways of God. For you are certain that God’s law gives you complete knowledge and truth.
Rom 2:21; Well then, if you teach others, why don’t you teach yourself? You tell others not to steal, but do you steal?
Rom 2:22; You say it is wrong to commit adultery, but do you commit adultery? You condemn idolatry, but do you use items stolen from pagan temples?
Rom 2:23; You are so proud of knowing the law, but you dishonor God by breaking it.
Rom 2:24; No wonder the Scriptures say, “The Gentiles blaspheme the name of God because of you.”
Rom 2:25; The Jewish ceremony of circumcision has value only if you obey God’s law. But if you don’t obey God’s law, you are no better off than an uncircumcised Gentile.
Rom 2:26; And if the Gentiles obey God’s law, won’t God declare them to be his own people?
Rom 2:27; In fact, uncircumcised Gentiles who keep God’s law will condemn you Jews who are circumcised and possess God’s law but don’t obey it.
Rom 2:28; For you are not a true Jew just because you were born of Jewish parents or because you have gone through the ceremony of circumcision.
Rom 2:29; No, a true Jew is one whose heart is right with God. And true circumcision is not merely obeying the letter of the law; rather, it is a change of heart produced by the Spirit. And a person with a changed heart seeks praise from God, not from people.



Total agreement here. (There is more, to testify to the truth, among other things),

'And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem,
the spirit of grace and of supplications:
and they shall look upon Me Whom they have pierced,
and they shall mourn for Him, as one mourneth for his only son,
and shall be in bitterness for Him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.'
(Zec 12:10)

Hello @B-A-C,

The nation of Israel will have been brought to repentance, and all Israel will have been saved, their sins having been forgiven them,; and begun their divinely appointed role of priests of God among the nations. For each of the Nations will be judged in relation to the way they have treated the Lord's brethren that came to minister to them. (see Matthew 25:31-46).

Mat 25:31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
Mat 25:32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
Mat 25:33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
Mat 25:34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
Mat 25:35 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
Mat 25:36 Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.
Mat 25:37 Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?
Mat 25:38 When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?
Mat 25:39 Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?
Mat 25:40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.
Mat 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
Mat 25:42 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:
Mat 25:43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.
Mat 25:44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
Mat 25:45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.
Mat 25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.


Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[Butch5]

Hello @Butch5,

Yes, the revelation concerning the fellowship of the mystery (Eph. 3:9) which he received, Paul administers via the epistles to the Ephesians, Philippians, Colossians, 1 & 2 Timothy, Titus and Philemon.

The mystery of Christ which was revealed to the holy apostles and prophets, including Paul, had been made known by them and him during his ministry to date; that revelation, like the gospel of God concerning His Son described in Romans 1:1-5, was the subject of the Old Testament prophets, and therefore verifiable. However, the revelation concerning the fellowship of the mystery which was revealed to Paul alone, is described as 'the unsearchable riches of Christ (Eph.1:8)', because it had been 'hid in God' since the world began (Eph. 3:9) and was not therefore the subject of the Old Testament prophets. It was that Christ was 'in' (or among) them (the Gentiles), and therefore their hope of glory, for salvation had now been sent to them (Acts 28:28), independent of Israel. Their 'hope of glory' was no longer as part of Israel, but was theirs both in and through Christ as the Head of the Body of which they were now part.

I hope this makes sense to you.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
our risen and glorified
Saviour, Lord and Head.
Chris

But there's a problem. Paul said

Hello @Butch5,

Yes, the revelation concerning the fellowship of the mystery (Eph. 3:9) which he received, Paul administers via the epistles to the Ephesians, Philippians, Colossians, 1 & 2 Timothy, Titus and Philemon.

The mystery of Christ which was revealed to the holy apostles and prophets, including Paul, had been made known by them and him during his ministry to date; that revelation, like the gospel of God concerning His Son described in Romans 1:1-5, was the subject of the Old Testament prophets, and therefore verifiable. However, the revelation concerning the fellowship of the mystery which was revealed to Paul alone, is described as 'the unsearchable riches of Christ (Eph.1:8)', because it had been 'hid in God' since the world began (Eph. 3:9) and was not therefore the subject of the Old Testament prophets. It was that Christ was 'in' (or among) them (the Gentiles), and therefore their hope of glory, for salvation had now been sent to them (Acts 28:28), independent of Israel. Their 'hope of glory' was no longer as part of Israel, but was theirs both in and through Christ as the Head of the Body of which they were now part.

I hope this makes sense to you.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
our risen and glorified
Saviour, Lord and Head.
Chris

Hi Chris,

You said that the Gentiles are no longer grafted into Israel. To support this you said Paul received further revelation that he alone received. First I don't believe you can make that case from Scripture. However, you said that Paul made this known in the epistles you listed. Here's the problem, Paul was writing to people who were already Christians. If the mystery hadn't been revealed to Paul when these believers believed, then they were grafted into the Olive Tree. So, how does this prove that believers are no longer grafted in? You also said that this started when the Jews were scattered as a nation. So, were Gentiles still being grafted into the Olive Tree throughout Paul's ministry even though this would all change in 70A.D.?

Israel was promised a kingdom, that Kingdom will be here on earth when Christ returns. Christ is said to reign in that Kingdom. If the grafting in of the Gentiles ended when Israel was scattered. Where do the Gentiles after this point go? If they're not part of the Kingdom promised to Israel, what happens to them?

It seems to me that we have two gospels here. That's what we find in Dispensationalism. Classic Dispensationalism holds two destinies for believers. There is a physical earthly Kingdom for Jewish believers and a Heavenly, in Heaven, Kingdom for Gentile believers. I don't believe a Biblical case can be made for this doctrine.

Question, can you point to an example in Scripture of Paul preaching "the unsearchable riches of Christ"?

 

[complete]

But there's a problem. Paul said


Hi Chris,

You said that the Gentiles are no longer grafted into Israel. To support this you said Paul received further revelation that he alone received. First I don't believe you can make that case from Scripture. However, you said that Paul made this known in the epistles you listed. Here's the problem, Paul was writing to people who were already Christians. If the mystery hadn't been revealed to Paul when these believers believed, then they were grafted into the Olive Tree. So, how does this prove that believers are no longer grafted in? You also said that this started when the Jews were scattered as a nation. So, were Gentiles still being grafted into the Olive Tree throughout Paul's ministry even though this would all change in 70A.D.?

Israel was promised a kingdom, that Kingdom will be here on earth when Christ returns. Christ is said to reign in that Kingdom. If the grafting in of the Gentiles ended when Israel was scattered. Where do the Gentiles after this point go? If they're not part of the Kingdom promised to Israel, what happens to them?

It seems to me that we have two gospels here. That's what we find in Dispensationalism. Classic Dispensationalism holds two destinies for believers. There is a physical earthly Kingdom for Jewish believers and a Heavenly, in Heaven, Kingdom for Gentile believers. I don't believe a Biblical case can be made for this doctrine.

Question, can you point to an example in Scripture of Paul preaching "the unsearchable riches of Christ"?

Hello @Vutch5,

Yes Paul was giving knowledge of the revelation of God regarding the church which is His Body the fulness of Him that filleth al in all, to believers among the assemblies.

Gentiles were being grafted into Israel's Olive Tree until the hope of Israel was placed in abeyance at their continued rejection of the word of God concerning their Messiah. This is what the quotation made by Paul to the leaders of the Jews in Acts 28: 25+ signified. For this quotation was only used at a time of rejection, twice by our Lord, in the land, and once by Paul in the diaspora. It led to our Lord no longer using direct speech to the multitude, but speaking in parables concerning the mysteries of the Kingdom, revealing their truths only to His disciples, and in the case of Paul, the Jews departed and He was given the knowledge of The Mystery which would make both Jew and Gentile One Body in Christ, to which were given a unique hope, quite different from that which they held as gentiles grafted into Israel's Olive tree, and blessing, which were all spiritual.etc., all made known in the epistles written by Paul following that revelation.

The members of the Body of Christ, are so identified with Him in His death, burial, quickening, resurrection and ascension, that in God's estimation they are there at His right hand in Christ Jesus now, in spirit. So that the Hope of the church which is the body of Christ is to appear with Christ, at his appearing in glory (Colossians 3:4), and to enter into their spiritual blessing awaiting them in heavenly places in Christ Jesus. (I know that you have another interpretation to give of what 'heavenly places' are, but I will remain with what is written there in Ephesians 1)

You say that there appears to be two gospels here: no, there is only a revelation from God which reveals His will for the church which is His Body, of which His Son is the Head.

Thank you, @Butch5, forgive me if my responses are maybe a little rushed and do not address your points as you would like, but I have been typing for hours, literally, and I am now very tired.

With love in Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[TheWaytoGo]

There is a word Jesus uses frequently in the new Testament. In fact there is only one place in the Bible where someone besides Jesus uses this word.

Matt 24:22; "Unless those days had been cut short, no life would have been saved; but for the sake of the elect those days will be cut short.
Matt 24:24; "For false Christs and false prophets will arise and will show great signs and wonders, so as to mislead, if possible, even the elect.
Matt 24:31; "And He will send forth His angels with A GREAT TRUMPET and THEY WILL GATHER TOGETHER His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.

Three times Jesus uses the word "elect" in Matt 24, in the context of the 'last days'.

Mark 13:20; "Unless the Lord had shortened those days, no life would have been saved; but for the sake of the elect, whom He chose, He shortened the days.
Mark 13:22; for false Christs and false prophets will arise, and will show signs and wonders, in order to lead astray, if possible, the elect.
Mark 13:27; "And then He will send forth the angels, and will gather together His elect from the four winds, from the farthest end of the earth to the farthest end of heaven.

Matt 24:31; is a quote of an old testament verse... which one exactly is problematic. But likely one of the below, or a combination of them.

Isa 27:13; It will come about also in that day that a great trumpet will be blown, and those who were perishing in the land of Assyria and who were scattered in the land of Egypt will come and worship the LORD in the holy mountain at Jerusalem.

Jer 49:2; "Therefore behold, the days are coming," declares the LORD, "That I will cause a trumpet blast of war to be heard Against Rabbah of the sons of Ammon; And it will become a desolate heap, And her towns will be set on fire. Then Israel will take possession of his possessors," Says the LORD.

Joel 2:1; Blow a trumpet in Zion, And sound an alarm on My holy mountain! Let all the inhabitants of the land tremble, For the day of the LORD is coming; Surely it is near,
Joel 2:15; Blow a trumpet in Zion, Consecrate a fast, proclaim a solemn assembly,

Sometimes these verses are used to say "the elect" is only the Jews. But is that always the case? We might find out otherwise.
But before that, one last verse from Jesus.

Luke 18:7; now, will not God bring about justice for His elect who cry to Him day and night, and will He delay long over them?

So, OK that's Jesus... does anyone else use the word "elect"? Yes, Paul does in one single verse.
Who did Paul write the book of Romans to? The answer is in Romans itself.

Rom 1:5; through whom we have received grace and apostleship to bring about the obedience of faith among all the Gentiles for His name's sake,
Rom 1:6; among whom you also are the called of Jesus Christ;
Rom 1:7; to all who are beloved of God in Rome, called as saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

All of the books of Paul were written to Gentiles (the possible exception is Hebrews, which no one knows for sure who wrote)
Romans was written to the Gentiles in Rome. Yet in the verse below, Gentiles are also the "the elect".

Rom 8:33; Who will bring a charge against God's elect? God is the one who justifies;

Have begun using my software to check out the Greek word when there is a controversy like this. The world elect, as used here, in the Greek means "select". In my opinion, that means the elect are ALL those who have been selected by Him from the foundation of the world, both Jew and Gentile.

εκλεκτων
G1588
A-GPM
ἐκλεκτός
select

 

[TheWaytoGo]

Did Jesus Die for All or for Only the Elect? Two Theologians Debate this may help

He died for the Elect - the Bride is whom He loves. He doesn't love the others, and they will be destroyed.

Rom 9:22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

 

[B-A-C]

He died for the Elect - the Bride is whom He loves. He doesn't love the others, and they will be destroyed.

On the other hand,

2Pet 3:9; The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.

1Tim 2:3; This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior,
1Tim 2:4; who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

God does love unsaved sinners, at least the ones who haven't rejected Him yet.

Rom 5:8; But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

Acts 10:34; Opening his mouth, Peter said: “I most certainly understand now that God is not one to show partiality,

 

[complete]

But there's a problem. Paul said


Hi Chris,

You said that the Gentiles are no longer grafted into Israel. To support this you said Paul received further revelation that he alone received. First I don't believe you can make that case from Scripture. However, you said that Paul made this known in the epistles you listed. Here's the problem, Paul was writing to people who were already Christians. If the mystery hadn't been revealed to Paul when these believers believed, then they were grafted into the Olive Tree. So, how does this prove that believers are no longer grafted in? You also said that this started when the Jews were scattered as a nation. So, were Gentiles still being grafted into the Olive Tree throughout Paul's ministry even though this would all change in 70A.D.?

Israel was promised a kingdom, that Kingdom will be here on earth when Christ returns. Christ is said to reign in that Kingdom. If the grafting in of the Gentiles ended when Israel was scattered. Where do the Gentiles after this point go? If they're not part of the Kingdom promised to Israel, what happens to them?

It seems to me that we have two gospels here. That's what we find in Dispensationalism. Classic Dispensationalism holds two destinies for believers. There is a physical earthly Kingdom for Jewish believers and a Heavenly, in Heaven, Kingdom for Gentile believers. I don't believe a Biblical case can be made for this doctrine.

Question, can you point to an example in Scripture of Paul preaching "the unsearchable riches of Christ"?

Hello @BUTCH 5,

In your last sentence you asked if I can point to an example in Scripture of Paul preaching 'the unsearchable riches of Christ'. My answer to that would be that as He was arrested and either in prison, or under house arrest then there can be no record of him physically preaching. However the content of the epistles of Ephesians, Philippians and Colossians contain these 'unsearchable riches', and that of 1 & 2 Timothy, Titus and Philemon, which were also written during his confinement.

The word, Gospel, means 'good news', and so yes this was further good news from God.

The words, 'The Kingdom of God' is an all covering title encompassing all the callings of the redeemed in Christ Jesus, whether they be, 'far above all', or in the New Jerusalem which comes down out of heaven to the New Earth, or within the earthly realms of God's choosing.

Don't let the subject of the Olive Tree be a stumbling block, for it is a figure only, used by Paul in Romans 11 for explanatory purposes.

The content of the later prison epistles contain all that is needful for the continued fellowship of believers in Christ Jesus, following the destruction and scattering of Israel.
In 2 Timothy 1:15, Paul tells Timothy that all that were in Asia had turned away from him, so it would seem that they had rejected this further revelation of God that he had made known. Timothy was urged by Paul to study to show himself approved unto God 'a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of Truth' (2 Timothy 2:15). For all around him, in Ephesus, was the strife of tongues, as believers argued and debated among themselves to their own detriment. Things have not changed have they?

Only God can reveal to you the truth of what I have said, I can do no more than I have done. Forgive me for the inadequacy of my ability to convey this truth in a manner that would help you to see and understand what I am saying. I will continue to seek to apply the words of Paul in 2 Timothy 2:15 in my own life, that I too may have no reason to be ashamed .

May God be glorified.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
our risen and glorified
Saviour, Lord and Head.
Chris