The Failure of Atheism to Account for Existence

[Vincent]

Greetings Vincent, @Vincent

A very kind friend once told me of my 'stupidity', but in much stronger terms. I had a choice to either arc up at him like a short on an electric welder and tell him that he was meant to be my friend and shouldn't be so mean to me... boo-hoo poor me, style [which i have been known to do at least once in my life! ] or consider his words as he was a friend and accept that he was right. Sometimes that isn't easy especially if the friendship is so new.

Forgive me please if anything i wrote offended you.
I have removed the offending post.


Bless you ....><>

I don't mind having my beliefs and reasons for them questioned. I am not easily offended, but I think calling all atheists stupid is not warranted.

Thanks for the response.

 

[Vincent]

yes, and the dying cells each day. Amazing stuff, isn't it?
Did you know there are many sciences besides the ones that can tell us about dead bodies? Some of those sciences don't get much airplay when it comes down to evidence required to believe. Probably a bit boring. Mind you , some people major on minors and minor on majors, because we are conditioned to seek a bigger thrill for our senses, even the ones that are not seen, if you get what i mean?

Not really. What sciences are you talking about?

Go easy Vincent. you seem to be getting agitated. There's no need to be.
You keep giving quick repetitive replies with only negatives and what seems to be a determination to undermine Christianity.

I have a lot of people responding to me. I will try to make my replies more complete. I only get agitated when others tell me what I think and that I am lying. I admit that I would not mind if Christianity and all other faith beliefs were thrown away.

I shall let you know, now, that such practice does not last long here.

Ok, but I have not insulted anyone that I know of. I did call Quantrell a liar because he has actually lied about my beliefs. I guess it is tolerated by Christians here though.

vincent, if you want to interact, grow up a bit and show a little respect, after all, you know the ropes, (you claim) and if you are here to try to help anyone see the light that you see, then go about it more gracefully, please.

Where have I not shown respect? Does respect include not telling others what they believe and calling others liars without warrant?

 

[Vincent]

Me again....
remember Abraham? What did he get as far as convincing goes? Yet, if he did not believe God because it was God Who spoke to him, then all your everything would probably not exist. Think about it... really and honestly think about it... take a little history into account and do a little math.


Bless you ....><>

I don't find any evidence that Abraham actually existed that is convincing.

 

[Vincent]

Greetings Vincent @Vincent

What you are saying, correct me if I am wrong, is you read the Bible and in doing so think you had done what it said.

Not exactly. I read the bible and prayed and did what I felt was right. I believed god communicated to me and I tried my best to obey. Many here have basically said I never really tried to know god but that is untrue. I was a full bible believer for many years. I was born again and it did radically change the way I lived my life. I went out and street preached and taught bible classes. I was a believer just as most Christians. You can not believe that but you cannot say that I was not.

Anyone can read the Bible, to many it is text on a page, only to those who are born-again can see and read it and know it is 'The Living Word'

Academics read it, highly qualified people read it, ministers who are qualified read it, all of these are probably good people in their own mind, all of these are good readers for sure, many of these will be good speakers, but if they are not born-again it is words of paper.

Some may be athiests, some may be agnostic, some may be simply head Christians. To them, all it is words on paper, they are not born-again. There are many of each of these in the world, there are many head Christians in the churches/places of worship. But none of these are Saved.

Matthew 18:1-3 (NKJV)
1 At that time the disciples came to Jesus, saying, "Who then is greatest in the kingdom of heaven?"
2 Then Jesus called a little child to Him, set him in the midst of them,
3 and said, "Assuredly, I say to you, unless you are converted (born again) and become as little children, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven.

Unless we become like little children, we will not enter the Kingdom of Heaven!

Unless we are born-again we will not see the Kingdom of Heaven

We can all relate to this, no one is born saved. All born again Christians have been where you are, it is words on a page, it doesn't make sense, it cannot be sussed out, it cannot be seen, it won't be either, unless we are born again, born anew.

John 3:3 (NKJV)
3 Jesus answered and said to him, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God."

The trouble is as we get older, we feel we can suss things out for our self, we over complicate things, we read things, take them into our heads, analyse them, try to apply our logic and in doing so it remains in our head.

Unless we become like little children, is hard for an adult to accept, we are older, we understand more, we are not kids anymore. Jesus didn't say that, he talks from the heart, when he says we should be like little children he is saying trust me, trust my Word, trust my Father in Heaven. Submit to the Father through me, it is as simple as that. God is saying, don't just read The Word, take what I say to heart, believe me, trust me, as a little child does.

A child may say, daddy is the moon really made of cheese, if daddy says yes love, the child believes, because the little child trusts daddy, loves daddy, accepts what daddy says. Jesus is saying, my Word is Truth, trust me, trust my Father, my Father loves you so much, I died for your sins, believe me, allow me into your heart, I can do nothing for you if I am only in your head.

Proverbs 3:5-6 (NKJV)
5 Trust in the LORD with all your heart, And lean not on your own understanding;
6 In all your ways acknowledge Him, And He shall direct your paths.

John 12:44-50 (NKJV)
44 Then Jesus cried out and said, "He who believes in Me, believes not in Me but in Him who sent Me.
45 And he who sees Me sees Him who sent Me.
46 I have come as a light into the world, that whoever believes in Me should not abide in darkness.
47 And if anyone hears My words and does not believe, I do not judge him; for I did not come to judge the world but to save the world.
48 He who rejects Me, and does not receive My words, has that which judges him--the word that I have spoken will judge him in the last day.
49 For I have not spoken on My own authority; but the Father who sent Me gave Me a command, what I should say and what I should speak.
50 And I know that His command is everlasting life. Therefore, whatever I speak, just as the Father has told Me, so I speak."

1 Corinthians 2:14 (NKJV)
14 But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

None believers, not born again are veiled from the Truth in God's Word. Hence it is words on a page. 2 Cor 4:3.

Faith in God, through Jesus, is the simplest thing in the world, realise we are sinners, come to the cross, accept Jesus died for our sins, repent, believe as little children. and the veil is removed.

If it is in the head, it is dead!

If it is in the heart, it is where life starts.

May the Lord Bless you, may His light shine upon you, once you realise your sins, you realise you need a saviour. Come to Jesus as you are, repent and accept Him as a child does, come to the Father, through Jesus, repent and accept Him, call Him Father, Abba Father, call Him daddy, He loves you and is waiting for you to open the door and let Him in. God made the first move to save you, Jesus died for our sins so that we may be saved. He says that in John 12:47 above and elsewhere in scripture.

Jesus stands at the door of your heart my friend, but only you can open it.

Peace be with you.

I know all of this. That fact is I was a believer and you can say that you are not convinced I was but you cannot say I wasn't.

 

[Vincent]

No you didn't believe. And you haven't used faith as the Bible defines it. You described your flippant faith in your post [HASH=2916]#(59[/HASH]). There you said you can believe in any simple god. You don't know the true faith of the believer.

I never said such a thing. You cannot know if I believed or not, you can say you are not convinced I was a believer. Your outright statement that I did not believe is unsubstantiated, you cannot possible know this.

And, if you want to use our Bible to instruct us, then don't get upset when we use our Bible to disprove your lies.

I only get upset when you call me a liar and stupid. Is that your Christian ethic coming through?

For example: (1 John 2:18-19) "...as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time. They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would not doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us."

See? You say differently. Guess who I believe? It's not you.

Yes because there is no in between right? You either believe or you are going to hell. There is no room for "I don't know", which is a reasonable position based on the lack of evidence for god.

 

[Vincent]

He does know why you don't believe. He does know what would convince you. Apparently He is not interested.

But your God will send me to hell anyway right?

Our faith and beliefs are based upon the Bible. You set yourself against the Bible and say things contrary to what the Bible says. That makes you a liar. Who do you think I am going to believe? Again, it ain't you. You don't mind calling our Bible a lie. Yet you get upset when you are called a liar. What a hypocrite.

Nope. You have not demonstrated in any way that the bible is true, inspired by a god etc. I know I believed so yeah you are a liar. Again you can say that you don't believe I was a believer but you cannot say I was not.

 

[Brother-Paul]

It is not up to me to say either way my friend, I can only guide you by The Word and lead you to Jesus.

What I am hearing is, you read the Bible and prayed and did your best to believe and obey God's Word.

May I ask, how do you know you were born again?

Please bare with me, I am not saying you didn't do anything, I am just asking you based on your reply to try see if I can help you.

Bless you

 

[Quantrill]

I never said such a thing. You cannot know if I believed or not, you can say you are not convinced I was a believer. Your outright statement that I did not believe is unsubstantiated, you cannot possible know this.

I only get upset when you call me a liar and stupid. Is that your Christian ethic coming through?

Yes because there is no in between right? You either believe or you are going to hell. There is no room for "I don't know", which is a reasonable position based on the lack of evidence for god.

Sure you did. See post [HASH=1946]#(54[/HASH]) which I replied to in post [HASH=2916]#(59[/HASH]). You said, "I can believe in any god by simple faith". Which as I said, is not the Christian faith. It is your type of faith. But that is an empty faith. The Christian believes it. You don't. You have described your cheap belief. You never believed. Your cheap faith substantiates my statement.

Oh please, cry me a river. You come here claiming our Bible is a lie then whine when you are called a liar. Now you want to play the 'Christian ethic' card as if you have been wronged. I guess I should shrink back and beg your forgiveness for hurting your tender feelings? Well, that ain't going to happen. If you want to play hardball, then play.

Exactly right. There is no in between. God is not interested in "I don't know". Because He says you knew.

Quantrill

 

[Quantrill]

But your God will send me to hell anyway right?

Nope. You have not demonstrated in any way that the bible is true, inspired by a god etc. I know I believed so yeah you are a liar. Again you can say that you don't believe I was a believer but you cannot say I was not.

Yes He will.

I have already told you. Your type of cheap faith which you yourself described proves you never had the faith that comes from God. And, because you have abandoned that faith, that proves you never were a believer. Scripture is clear as I showed you.

So, I can most definitely say you were not.

Quantrill

 

[Curtis]

1Jn 2:22 Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.

 

[Curtis]

1Jn 5:10 Whoever believes in the Son of God has the testimony in himself. Whoever does not believe God has made him a liar, because he has not believed in the testimony that God has borne concerning his Son. (ESV)

 

[Brad Huber]

Well energy cannot be destroyed, matter can.

Show me any scientist that claims this. Decomposition is well known.

Who are they? This is big claim can you provide evidence that most scientists think this? Science can explain in detail what happens to a dead body.

No, matter cannot be destroyed, even in an atomic explosion, matter is broken down into other types of matter and some is converted to energy. I would have thought you would know this being a disciple of science.

Decomposition only applies to the matter of the body, not the energy, they can record the energy leaving the body if they try real hard, but they dont know what happens to it. Perhaps you have heard of Kirillian photography?

 

[Vincent]

No, matter cannot be destroyed, even in an atomic explosion, matter is broken down into other types of matter and some is converted to energy.

When matter is converted to energy it is no longer matter. Matter is energy but energy is not matter. But this is a different discussion.

I would have thought you would know this being a disciple of science.

I am not a disciple of science, I just believe it is the best method to acquire truth we have come up with.

Decomposition only applies to the matter of the body, not the energy, they can record the energy leaving the body if they try real hard, but they dont know what happens to it.

Really? Read a medical or physics paper on death, we know where the energy goes. Some leaves as heat as the body cools down to room temperature, some leaves as bugs feed off of bodies, when flesh decays it also gives off heat etc.

Perhaps you have heard of Kirillian photography?

Nope.

 

[Vincent]

Sure you did. See post [HASH=1946]#(54[/HASH]) which I replied to in post [HASH=2916]#(59[/HASH]). You said, "I can believe in any god by simple faith". Which as I said, is not the Christian faith. It is your type of faith. But that is an empty faith. The Christian believes it. You don't. You have described your cheap belief. You never believed. Your cheap faith substantiates my statement.

You said in #42:

If they don't come by simple faith,....they don't come.

Then I said in #54:

Another Christian telling another what they believed or believe. You cannot possible know what I believed and when, and simple faith is not a good pathway to find truth. I can believe in any god by simple faith.

Note I actually said simple faith is not a good pathway to truth. And the context is clear that when I said I can believe in any god by simple faith I was not referring to my faith but to the fact that simple faith is not a good pathway to truth because I or anyone can believe anything by simple faith. You ripped that out and wrongly applied it to my faith as a christian and said it was not real faith. You said that simple faith is the way to come to god. I never said this. So what gives?

Oh please, cry me a river. You come here claiming our Bible is a lie then whine when you are called a liar. Now you want to play the 'Christian ethic' card as if you have been wronged. I guess I should shrink back and beg your forgiveness for hurting your tender feelings? Well, that ain't going to happen. If you want to play hardball, then play.

Here is t he difference. I have never said your bible is a lie. I have said I don't believe it is true based on the evidence presented. You are the one calling me a liar without any evidence except a book that has nor been demonstrated to be from god.

Exactly right. There is no in between. God is not interested in "I don't know". Because He says you knew.

No, a book you believe is from god says it. You say you believe in god and that the bible is inspired by god but you cannot demonstrate that in any way and then you call others liars who disagree with you. See what your faith is getting you. I don't know id an honest answer based on the evidence presented.

 

[Quantrill]

You said in #42:


Then I said in #54:



Note I actually said simple faith is not a good pathway to truth. And the context is clear that when I said I can believe in any god by simple faith I was not referring to my faith but to the fact that simple faith is not a good pathway to truth because I or anyone can believe anything by simple faith. You ripped that out and wrongly applied it to my faith as a christian and said it was not real faith. You said that simple faith is the way to come to god. I never said this. So what gives?

Here is t he difference. I have never said your bible is a lie. I have said I don't believe it is true based on the evidence presented. You are the one calling me a liar without any evidence except a book that has nor been demonstrated to be from god.

No, a book you believe is from god says it. You say you believe in god and that the bible is inspired by god but you cannot demonstrate that in any way and then you call others liars who disagree with you. See what your faith is getting you. I don't know id an honest answer based on the evidence presented.

No, what you actually said is, "I can believe in any god by simple faith". Post [HASH=1946]#(54[/HASH]) If you are not referring to 'your' faith when you use the word 'I' then you're are lying either then or now.

I explained to you later what was meant by 'simple faith' in post [HASH=2916]#(59[/HASH]). Your 'simple faith' is not the faith of the Christian. Your simple faith is faith in the unknown. It is a faith that doesn't know if it is true or not. Your faith is an imposters faith. A dream. The Christians faith is a faith of knowing. We believe because we know these things are so.

You the atheist, hate that. You hate our confidence in God and Jesus Christ. Thus you come as you do, not because you are interested in being saved. You come in hope of destroying the confidence that believers have in God and Christ. Yours is an attempt of fools. You do not have access to what the believer in Christ has.

I don't mind calling you a liar. I am not dodging like you are. You say I never called the Bible a lie, yet you say you don't believe it is true. What stupidity. You are calling the Bible a lie, and I am calling you a liar. I am willing to own up to my claim. But as usual, the atheist has no...guts....to own up to his. What a coward.

No, the Bible which is from God says it. I am not required to demonstrate to you that the Bible is inspired by God. I simply give you the Truth concerning God, Christ, and the Bible. If you don't like it, forget it. You have done nothing to me by rejecting it. But, your rejecting it will not cause others to reject it. Those whose eyes the Spirit of God opens will not be affected by your blindness.

As I have said before, you will never find God based on the evidence. Why? God refuses to be found that way. Now what will you do, oh atheist?

Quantrill

 

[Vincent]

No, what you actually said is, "I can believe in any god by simple faith". Post [HASH=1946]#(54[/HASH]) If you are not referring to 'your' faith when you use the word 'I' then you're are lying either then or now.

And you are still taking my words out of context. I went over thins in my last post, laid it out in context. You are simply wrong. You here are again telling me what I believe and think.

We believe because we know these things are so.

That is not belief as defined in the bible. If you 100% know, which is an epistemological impossibility, then where does faith come in?

You the atheist, hate that. You hate our confidence in God and Jesus Christ.

You seem to think that all atheists are the same. This is untrue, all atheists just have a lack of belief in a god. Atheism makes no claims or has any idology. Some atheists believe in ghosts, some believe in alien abduction etc. I don't hate your faith I simply disagree that a god exists. You again tell me what I think.

thus you come as you do, not because you are interested in being saved. You come in hope of destroying the confidence that believers have in God and Christ. Yours is an attempt of fools. You do not have access to what the believer in Christ has.

Again telling me what I think. No believer has demonstrated that they have anything other than belief based on bad reasons in my opinion.

I don't mind calling you a liar. I am not dodging like you are. You say I never called the Bible a lie, yet you say you don't believe it is true. What stupidity.

No, it is logic. Faith in a god is unfalsifiable so taking a position of belief is unwarranted. I cannot know either way if the christian god is real or not. Not believing is not the same as saying you are lying. The christian god and bible could be true I am just saying I don't believe it but it could be true.

You are calling the Bible a lie, and I am calling you a liar. I am willing to own up to my claim. But as usual, the atheist has no...guts....to own up to his. What a coward.

Why the name calling? Your hatred of atheists is coming through. I am not saying the bible is a lie, I am saying I don't believe it is true. Can you understand the difference?

No, the Bible which is from God says it. I am not required to demonstrate to you that the Bible is inspired by God. I simply give you the Truth concerning God, Christ, and the Bible. If you don't like it, forget it. You have done nothing to me by rejecting it. But, your rejecting it will not cause others to reject it. Those whose eyes the Spirit of God opens will not be affected by your blindness.

I do hope society drops religious faith. It is bad for society in my opinion. It leads to senseless division as you are showing. It leads to discrimination, slavery, rejection of medical care etc. because of the faith. It is my opinion that faith in gods has been an overall negative for society.

As I have said before, you will never find God based on the evidence. Why? God refuses to be found that way. Now what will you do, oh atheist?

That is a terrible way for a god to want all to be saved as the bible says. This is actual good news to me, because if something cannot be believed based on evidence then it is easier for me to reason with people not to believe it.

You are a typical Christians in that you tell others what they think instead of actually listening to what they have to say. Is the condescension and hatred what Jesus would do? Jesus had terse words for the religious not the nonbelievers. Maybe you should think about that.

 

[Quantrill]

And you are still taking my words out of context. I went over thins in my last post, laid it out in context. You are simply wrong. You here are again telling me what I believe and think.

That is not belief as defined in the bible. If you 100% know, which is an epistemological impossibility, then where does faith come in?

You seem to think that all atheists are the same. This is untrue, all atheists just have a lack of belief in a god. Atheism makes no claims or has any idology. Some atheists believe in ghosts, some believe in alien abduction etc. I don't hate your faith I simply disagree that a god exists. You again tell me what I think.

Again telling me what I think. No believer has demonstrated that they have anything other than belief based on bad reasons in my opinion.

No, it is logic. Faith in a god is unfalsifiable so taking a position of belief is unwarranted. I cannot know either way if the christian god is real or not. Not believing is not the same as saying you are lying. The christian god and bible could be true I am just saying I don't believe it but it could be true.

Why the name calling? Your hatred of atheists is coming through. I am not saying the bible is a lie, I am saying I don't believe it is true. Can you understand the difference?

I do hope society drops religious faith. It is bad for society in my opinion. It leads to senseless division as you are showing. It leads to discrimination, slavery, rejection of medical care etc. because of the faith. It is my opinion that faith in gods has been an overall negative for society.

That is a terrible way for a god to want all to be saved as the bible says. This is actual good news to me, because if something cannot be believed based on evidence then it is easier for me to reason with people not to believe it.

You are a typical Christians in that you tell others what they think instead of actually listening to what they have to say. Is the condescension and hatred what Jesus would do? Jesus had terse words for the religious not the nonbelievers. Maybe you should think about that.

No, you're the one that defined your 'belief'. Now you see what a mistake you made and are trying to cover it up because it exposes your claim of being a 'former Christian'. Sorry pardner...too late.

You preach about 'context' yet you focus on a sentence taking it out of it's context in hopes of making some points. Quote the whole paragraph if you want to be honest. This is the faith of the Bible. Show me where this is not the faith of the Bible. The Christian's faith is an impossibility. You don't pay attention do you? I have told you it is a miraculous act of God. Go back and reread. That is the 'faith' of the believer. And this is why your and other impersonators are left out in the cold.

What a contradictory statement. You say not all atheist's are the same yet you say all atheists have a lack of belief in God. If atheism makes no claims then why are you here claiming something? I tell you what you think because I know what you think. It bothers you because you know it is right. No believer is required to demonstrate to you anything. We simply give the Gospel of Jesus Christ. Believe it or turn away. Yet, you turn away and come back and want to prove to some that there is 'reason' to doubt the Gospel. As I said, you are on a fools errand.

Well, God has taken the position that He will be known on His terms. Not yours, not logic, not reason, not proofs. God will be known on the basis of faith. And it will be His choosing as to whose eyes are opened. Thus you remain blind. Please, quit trying to appear so cordial and open. When you say the 'christian god could be true and the bible could be true, but you don't believe it', that itself is a lie. You don't believe it could be true. You are simply hoping others will enter in and try and give evidence and proofs for the existence of God, which you will naturally deny. As I said, you are on a fools errand.

When you lie, I call you a liar. When you are a coward, as you are, I call you a coward. It is not name calling if it is so. Yes, you do say the Bible is a lie. You mock the believers trust in the Bible. That can only be true if the Bible was a lie. Your playing with words does not change anything. Either you or I are lying. I don't mind saying it is you. And I don't mind saying you are a coward as you won't own up to it.

Well, you can have your opinion all you want. It won't change anything. As I said, your unbelief does not affect those who believe.

You don't know what the Bible says. So quit pretending you do. And you can try and reason all you want for people not to believe but the Spirit of God will usurp your efforts and open the eyes of those He wants to. And, by the way, you just admitted to your real purpose here which is exactly what I have been telling you. You see, I do know what you're thinking.

Aw...your feeling are hurt. And I should be feeling guilty that I have hurt your sensitivity. I should let you go ahead and let you cast your doubt upon God, and Christ, and the Bible, because I have hurt your feelings..........forget it. Don't worry about my position with God. I know of what it is. You had better be worrying about yours.

Your purpose is solely to cause doubt among those who believe. And there may be some new believers here who are troubled by what you say. But, you had better hope not. (Matt. 18:6) "But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea."

Quantrill