The Law or not the Law that is the question?

[norapture]

Hebrews 7:11-14 can someone post these scripture for me , (the law has been changed)

Thanks

 

[B-A-C]

Let me answer that with a question, if all law is by love , thou shall love the Lord God with all thy heart, thy mind , thy strength and thy neibor as thyself, would someone do those things, see love is the fulfillment of the law

So is murdering someone loving them?
Is lying to them loving them?
Is having an affair with their wife loving them?
Is stealing from them loving them?

Is worshiping another god or idol loving God?
Is disobeying the commandments loving God?

 

[norapture]

So is murdering someone loving them?
Is lying to them loving them?
Is having an affair with their wife loving them?
Is stealing from them loving them?

Is worshiping another god or idol loving God?
Is disobeying the commandments loving God?

Brother you seem to think I said it was ok , to sin, I didn't say that, but the law has changed, and if anything it is probably more strict , matter of fact what does Jesus say about those things?

 

[amadeus2]

So OK... that's what it's 'not'. But it doesn't answer the question of what it is.
Is murder a sin? rape? child molesting? How about lying or envying?

Did these things stop being sin because there's a new covenant?

It is really in the heart, isn't it? If a person is able to murder, rape and molest without any malice, perhaps they would not be sin. The reality likely is that when a thing looks as bad as those do to eyes of flesh, probably they are as bad or worse to a heart that is following God. There would be gray areas for someone without the discernment of God, but that which was an abomination to God in the OT is an abomination to God now.. unless God has cleansed it in some way...


"But the voice answered me again from heaven, What God hath cleansed, that call not thou common." Acts 11"9

 

[B-A-C]

It is really in the heart, isn't it? If a person is able to murder, rape and molest without any malice, perhaps they would not be sin. The reality likely is that when a thing looks as bad as those do to eyes of flesh, probably they are as bad or worse to a heart that is following God. There would be gray areas for someone without the discernment of God, but that which was an abomination to God in the OT is an abomination to God now.. unless God has cleansed it in some way...

Good point.
The definition of a sociopath...
a person with a personality disorder manifesting itself in extreme antisocial attitudes and behavior and a lack of conscience.

I'm guessing if I'm murdering you, I might be just a little bit anti-social?
I'm guessing that if I don't feel guilty about the things I'm doing to you.
(Lying, murdering, stealing, cheating with your wife, etc...) that could be defined as "a lack of conscience?

The Bible talks about sociopaths.

1 Tim 4:1; But the Spirit explicitly says that in later times some will [a]fall away from the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons,
1Tim 4:2; by means of the hypocrisy of liars seared in their own conscience as with a branding iron,

Some people sin so often, and brush it off as nothing so many times. Their conscience becomes "seared
over" as if with a branding iron. They no longer care about anything or anyone but themselves.

Jude 1:4; For certain persons have crept in unnoticed, those who were long beforehand marked out for this condemnation, ungodly persons who turn the grace of our God into a license to sin and deny our only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ.

Some are such slaves to sin, they go on willfully sinning, and they claim grace covers all of this.

 

[norapture]

Hebrews 7:11- If therefore perfection were by the Levitical priesthood , for under it the people received the law, what further need was there that another priest should rise after the order of Melchisedec , and not be called after the order of Aaron.
12 For the priesthood being changed, other is made a necessity a change also of the law.

Jesus came from the tribe of Judah , not the tribe of Levi
so the priesthood was change and the law also

Leviticus 24: 19 And if any man cause a blemish in his neighbor, , as he hath done , so shall it be done to him.
20 Breach for breach , eye for eye, tooth for tooth, as he hath caused a blemish in a man, so shall it be done unto him again.

Matthew 5:38 Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for a eye,and a tooth for a tooth
29 But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil, but whosoever shall smite thee on the right cheek turn to him the other also.

See by the law if man hit you and nocked out your eye or tooth , then by the law the same to him

But in the new covenant , you are not justified , to smite the man back
Now which one is harder to hit some back , or turn the other cheek

 

[Brother-Paul]

B-A-C said: ↑
So OK... that's what it's 'not'. But it doesn't answer the question of what it is.
Is murder a sin? rape? child molesting? How about lying or envying?


It is in 'The Word - Love'

If we Love we will not rape someone, molest a child, kill someone, harm someone, have an affair with someone else's husband/wife, steal, lie, be envious, etc, etc.

We will Love our neighbour as our self, not western world love, but God's world Love. God's Word - Love.

Love is the fulfilment of the Law as norapture has quoted above.

 

[Brother-Paul]

1 Corinthians 10:23

• All things are lawful for me, but all things are not expedient: all things are lawful for me, but all things edify not.

• "I have the right to do anything," you say--but not everything is beneficial. "I have the right to do anything"--but not everything is constructive.
• “All things are lawful,” but not all things are helpful. “All things are lawful,” but not all things build up.

Sorry brother but that was not what I said, what I said was...

Does God allow 'anything' that is not in the new covenant? I do not think so.

As Bendito pointed out...

There are only two laws that a Christian is bound to follow...Namely...
Matthew 22:36-40Complete Jewish Bible (CJB)
36 “Rabbi, which of the mitzvot in the Torah is the most important?” 37 He told him, “‘You are to love Adonai your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength.’a]">[a] 38 This is the greatest and most important mitzvah. 39 And a second is similar to it, ‘You are to love your neighbor as yourself.’b]">[b] 40 All of the Torah and the Prophets are dependent on these two mitzvot.”

On these two laws all the other laws are based...There is NO law in the Torah or the Penatuch that are not based on these laws.
That makes if quite simple for us

 

[Brother-Paul]

It is in 'The Word - Love'

If we Love we will not rape someone, molest a child, kill someone, harm someone, have an affair with someone else's husband/wife, steal, lie, be envious, etc, etc.

We will Love our neighbour as our self, not western world love, but God's world Love. God's Word - Love.

Love is the fulfilment of the Law as norapture has quoted above.

Romans 13:10 (KJV)
10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.

Both words 'love' in this verse refer to 'agape' divine love.

Greek Word: ἀγάπη
Transliteration: agapē
Phonetic Pronunciation:ag-ah'-pay
Root: from <G25>
Strong's Talking Greek & Hebrew Dictionary.

 

[Brother-Paul]

The items raised are covered here

Romans 13:8-10 (NKJV)
8 Owe no one anything except to love one another, for he who loves another has fulfilled the law.
9 For the commandments, "You shall not commit adultery," "You shall not murder," "You shall not steal," "You shall not bear false witness," "You shall not covet," and if there is any other commandment, are all summed up in this saying, namely, "You shall love your neighbor as yourself."
10 Love does no harm to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.

 

[RJ]

Sorry brother but that was not what I said, what I said was...
Brother-Paul said: ↑
Does God allow 'anything' that is not in the new covenant? I do not think so.
:laugh:....I'm sorry you missed my point brother! My answer to your question is.....Yes he does but, it must edify the church to be allowed.....think about it! What edifies the church? ,,,,that would be anything from the old and new covenants that satisfy this requirement. Example: the Ten Commandments are perfect, holy, righteous and blameless and that part of the law have not been abolished by Jesus but, such things, as sacrifices and other requirements have because they no longer are necessary and do not edify the church of the New Covenant of grace.

 

[Brother-Paul]

Sorry brother but that was not what I said, what I said was...
Brother-Paul said: ↑
Does God allow 'anything' that is not in the new covenant? I do not think so.
:laugh:....I'm sorry you missed my point brother! My answer to your question is.....Yes he does but, it must edify the church to be allowed.....think about it! What edifies the church? ,,,,that would be anything from the old and new covenants that satisfy this requirement. Example: the Ten Commandments are perfect, holy, righteous and blameless and that part of the law have not been abolished by Jesus but, such things, as sacrifices and other requirements have because they no longer are necessary and do not edify the church of the New Covenant of grace.

Bless you brother

The Ten Commandments we agree.

But also I think ALL items in the original Law, first 5 books in the Bible, that relate to Love as God created it to be.

Matthew 22:36-40 (KJV)
36 Master, which is the great commandment in the law?
37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
38 This is the first and great commandment.
39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

Matthew 22:36-40 (CJB)
36 “Rabbi, which of the mitzvot in the Torah is the most important?”
37 He told him, “‘You are to love Adonai your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength.’
38 This is the greatest and most important mitzvah.
39 And a second is similar to it, ‘You are to love your neighbor as yourself.’
40 All of the Torah and the Prophets are dependent on these two mitzvot.”

 

[Chopper]

B-A-C said: ↑
So OK... that's what it's 'not'. But it doesn't answer the question of what it is.
Is murder a sin? rape? child molesting? How about lying or envying?


It is in 'The Word - Love'

If we Love we will not rape someone, molest a child, kill someone, harm someone, have an affair with someone else's husband/wife, steal, lie, be envious, etc, etc.

We will Love our neighbour as our self, not western world love, but God's world Love. God's Word - Love.

Love is the fulfilment of the Law as norapture has quoted above.

Good point my friend. On LOVE hangs all the Law and Prophets....
Matthew 22:36 "Teacher, which is the great commandment in the Law?"
22:37 And he said to him, "You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.
22:38 This is the great and first commandment.
22:39 And a second is like it: You shall love your neighbor as yourself.
22:40 On these two commandments depend all the Law and the Prophets."

As I have studied God's Commandments, Laws, statutes, and rules, plus the teachings of Jesus the Son of God in Matthew five, I see as a motive of YHWH, LOVE!! It's almost, that if all the Commandments and Laws of God were silenced, and Christians applied Love to all thoughts, intents and actions on a daily basis, our Almighty God would be pleased and find no fault in us.

 

[Brother-Paul]

Greetings Chopper nice to share in the Word again.

It's almost, that if all the Commandments and Laws of God were silenced, and Christians applied Love to all thoughts, intents and actions on a daily basis, our Almighty God would be pleased and find no fault in us.

Sadly there are some who do not know what Love is, or what Love God intended, sadly again there are some think 'hay ho' we are free from the law 'full stop'

I understand from what I read that Jesus was referring to 'The Law', first 5 books, 'Torah', and the 'Prophets', for ALL Laws in those which related to Love.
God's divine 'agape' Love.

Matthew 22:36 "Teacher, which is the great commandment in the Law?"
22:37 And he said to him, "You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.
22:38 This is the great and first commandment.
22:39 And a second is like it: You shall love your neighbor as yourself.
22:40 On these two commandments depend all the Law and the Prophets."

 

[RJ]

But also I think ALL items in the original Law, first 5 books in the Bible, that relate to Love as God created it to be.

Yes love is the greatest! (1 Corinthians 13:13). We are free from any penalty of the law but, of course, love would edify the church!!! and it endures to heaven! There never has nor will there be any penalty for love; another way in which Jesus fulfills the law!

 

[B-A-C]

Brother you seem to think I said it was ok , to sin, I didn't say that, but the law has changed, and if anything it is probably more strict , matter of fact what does Jesus say about those things?

Sorry, I didn't mean to infer you thought was OK. What I was trying to get at was,
can we still sin? From your reply above it seems that you think Christians are capable of sinning
I bolded the area in your reply I am speaking of. (I would agree)

But how do we know if something is a sin?
Is tying your shoelaces with your left hand while chewing bubblegum on a Thursday a sin?
Yes or no? How do you know?
Is murdering someone a sin?
Yes or no? How do you know?

If there is no law, there is no sin, because the law is what defines sin.

 

[Brother-Paul]

Something I have done for a long time, and pray regularly, as we can sin and not know we have done so.

I pray for forgiveness of all my sins, those in thought, those in word and those in need, those I am aware of and those which I am not.

Bless you brother.

 

[RJ]

We aim to keep them brother but will always fail, in 12 hours let alone 24 hours.

So then we agree his commandments and the law are worthy to keep but not perfectly; for that we can not do but, but he forgives us still!

 

[norapture]

Sorry, I didn't mean to infer you thought was OK. What I was trying to get at was,
can we still sin? From your reply above it seems that you think Christians are capable of sinning
I bolded the area in your reply I am speaking of. (I would agree)

But how do we know if something is a sin?
Is tying your shoelaces with your left hand while chewing bubblegum on a Thursday a sin?
Yes or no? How do you know?
Is murdering someone a sin?
Yes or no? How do you know?

If there is no law, there is no sin, because the law is what defines sin.

Oh ok , yes brother I do believe a Christian can sin.
How do we know ? Now that's a tough one, scripture says if a man knows to do good and doeth it not , its a sin unto him.
Scripture says that he will write his law in our hearts and mind, I believe as we began to grow in Christ, the love of God grows in us, or I could say that Christ is formed in us, so the more we are like Christ the easier it is to see our sin,
I believe sin is not just doing what is wrong, but it is also not doing what is right, in Gods eyes

So if I do anything that
displeases God it should be a sin unto me, cause I will have broken the first and greastest comandment , to Love God with all my heart , with all my mind , with all my strength, and with all my soul

Do I fall short oh so so far short, but that's why Christ came , to overcome sin in the flesh, and if I will walk after the Spirit, and not after the flesh, Christ will also overcome sin in my flesh, for greater is he that is in me , than he that is in the world,

Not by my strength , not by my mite, but by the Spirit of the Lord

 

[Brother-Paul]

So then we agree his commandments and the law are worthy to keep but not perfectly; for that we can not do but, but he forgives us still!

Dear brother, yes we agree the Law is worthy to keep, the law is holy, the commandments holy, we have discussed commandments earlier in thread, Jesus told us to Obey His Commandments. The Torah Law is a yoke and unachievable, but we are now free from that through Jesus Christ our Lord, we are now under the law of Love, everything in the Torah and the Prophets that relates to Love, as God designed and created it; we may still not achieve perfection but the New Covenant to Love God and to Love our neighbour as ourselves has to be a lot easier. As the song goes, 'Love conquers everything', if it is Divine Love, agape Love, it certainly does. To God be the Glory.

Romans 7:10-13 (KJV)
10 And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.
11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.
12 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.
13 Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful.

Bless you