The Law or not the Law that is the question?

[LordKnows]

Now that's a tough one

It's not really a tough one ... to me anyway. JESUS said that ALL fall short of the GLORY of God & everyone includes Christians too.

Don't lie to yourself & think "Once saved always saved" That is nothing more than deception from satan himself. YES a Christian CAN sin. Do they do it ON PURPOSE? Maybe, maybe not... That is between them & Jesus. I look at it like a kid - When the parents are near they tend to do what is right. When the kid THINKS that the parent(s) aren't able to see or hear what they are doing they tend to get into things they're not supposed to. Does that make them any less their parents child? Does that have the parent love them any less? Does the child love their parent any less? One thing I have learned over the years is this... A parent KNOWS they love their child BEFORE the child knows they love their parent. We can say we love our parent a million times but that doesn't mean we do. And in some whacked out occasions parents don't love their children but I'm not talking about them folks right now. When a 2 year old learns to talk they will say "I love you" BUT since they have no grasp on love or how to love they are just saying what they have heard people say to them. God LOVED us before we were even created. HE created us EXACTLY the way he wanted to design us. He KNOWS who is going to heaven & who is not. He loves us ALL THE SAME.

Sinning is doing something that Jesus himself would NOT do and since EVERYONE falls short of the Glory of God & Jesus was the ONLY one WITHOUT sin that means YES Christians are fully capable to sin & we do ... OFTEN more often than I would like to admit. God just wants us to ACKNOWLEDGE the fact that we have sinned, confess the sin & ask him to forgive us. God KNOWS that we are NEVER going to be perfect. If you really think about it God basically chose the misfits to be his disciples. If that isn't proof that God can turn turds into triumphs I don't know what more I can tell ya.

 

[B-A-C]

Sinning is doing something that Jesus himself would NOT do

I totally agree. Part of this would be John 15:10;
Sin is something that is defined. It's in black and white. (It's in the Bible).
Otherwise if we just say something nebulous like "sin is doing something bad" or even "sin is doing
something I think is bad". Then the definition of sin becomes chaos.

Different people think different things are bad,
Many people don't believe that homosexuality is a sin, does the fact they don't believe it make it any less
of a sin?

Certain ethnic/religious groups think murder (in the name of their god) isn't a sin, does that make it not a sin?

Certain religious sects believe that polygamy is not a sin, does that make it not a sin?

Are we all going to stand before God with different rules for each of us?

Is God really going to say "Hey that adultery thing, that was only for the Jews of the old covenant,
it doesn't really apply to you".
Is God really going to say something isn't a sin, just because someone believes it isn't a sin?
What kind of capricious God would change the rules every so often?

God is who defines what sin is. Not us.

 

[RJ]

Don't lie to yourself & think "Once saved always saved" That is nothing more than deception from satan himself. YES a Christian CAN sin.

What makes you think that OSAS is so wrong?
Does OSAS give you the connotation that one believes that they can willfully sin with out a repentant heart?

 

[Chopper]

OSAS, O my, what an explosive topic. There is no doubt in my mind that those of whom the Father gave His Son will never loose what they were given. Look at a few verses in John 17....

John 17:1 "When Jesus had spoken these words, he lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, "Father, the hour has come; glorify your Son that the Son may glorify you,
17:2 since you have given him authority over all flesh, to give eternal life to all whom you have given him."

We're not talking about some flimsy statement of man, we're talking about the high Priestly prayer of our Savior and His authority. Does anyone think that anyone that the Father presents to His Son for Salvation can loose it? Not in this world!! Granted, The Scripture is speaking about the forerunners to us, the Disciples, and look at....
John 17:12 While I was with them, I kept them in your name, which you have given me. I have guarded them, and not one of them has been lost except the son of destruction, that the Scripture might be fulfilled.

Also note....John 17:20 "I do not ask for these only, but also for those who will believe in me through their word Hey folks, that's me and RJ, and even you. I believe that there are thousands upon thousands of Believers who come to Jesus the Son of God thru this....

Ephesians 1:3 "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places,
1:4 even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love
1:5 he predestined us for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will,"

These, just like the Disciples will never loose their Salvation. There are those, though, who can loose their Salvation. These are those who do not have the call on their individual lives, they come to the faith thru the General Call of the Gospel. Wonderful Evangelists like Billy Graham sends out the Gospel message and people respond. How do they respond?....

Luke 8:11 :Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God.
8:12 Those by the way side are they that hear; then cometh the devil, and taketh away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.
8:13 They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away.
8:14 And that which fell among thorns are they, which, when they have heard, go forth, and are choked with cares and riches and pleasures of this life, and bring no fruit to perfection.
8:15 But that on the good ground are they, which in an honest and good heart, having heard the word, keep it, and bring forth fruit with patience."

If this can be used as a rule of thumb, only one out of four retain their Salvation. Three loose what they thought was Salvation.

 

[RJ]

Here is something that is not in the Bible exactly but I like it anyway.... If God's promise is being "Born Again" , having Christ in you and therefore a Christian, how exactly does a Christian become "Un-born"?

 

[B-A-C]

OSAS, O my, what an explosive topic.

...and sometimes wearisome. It's a shame that the majority of threads always has to come back to this.

 

[RJ]

..and sometimes wearisome. It's a shame that the majority of threads always has to come back to this.

Not to those who believe in it and are set free by it! What a glorious thing!

 

[amadeus2]

Here is something that is not in the Bible exactly but I like it anyway.... If God's promise is being "Born Again" , having Christ in you and therefore a Christian, how exactly does a Christian become "Un-born"?

What was it that happened to the first man Adam?

"Which was the son of Enos, which was the son of Seth, which was the son of Adam, which was the son of God." Luke 3:38

He was the "son of God". Does that mean he was "born of God"? But... he disobeyed his Father and he was then dead. What happened to Adam cannot happen to us? Isn't our God the God that never changes and is no respecter of persons?

Why was it necessary for people to be "born again"? Their first birth to God was nullified by our first carnal father's sin. They became the 'walking dead' with no Life in them. Is that being "unborn"?

 

[RJ]

What was it that happened to the first man Adam?

"Which was the son of Enos, which was the son of Seth, which was the son of Adam, which was the son of God." Luke 3:38

He was the "son of God". Does that mean he was "born of God"? But... he disobeyed his Father and he was then dead. What happened to Adam cannot happen to us? Isn't our God the God that never changes and is no respecter of persons?

Why was it necessary for people to be "born again"? Their first birth to God was nullified by our first carnal father's sin. They became the 'walking dead' with no Life in them. Is that being "unborn"?

John3:1-3
There was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews:
2 The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him.
3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

 

[amadeus2]

John3:1-3
There was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews:
2 The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him.
3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

Yes, a man who is already dead, [his inheritance from his first father, Adam], needs to be born again in order to live.

 

[Chopper]

Here is something that is not in the Bible exactly but I like it anyway.... If God's promise is being "Born Again" , having Christ in you and therefore a Christian, how exactly does a Christian become "Un-born"?

Hey, you just hit one over the wall....Home Run!! Friend. Lol, that's a good one, very profound. "How does a born again Christian become unborn? I've never thought of it that way. Now, that put a smile on my wrinkled up old face.

 

[RJ]

Yes, a man who is already dead, [his inheritance from his first father, Adam], needs to be born again in order to live.

Yes, just like you have your physical born from your mother and can not be UN-born physically, so it is with your spiritual or second birth by the Holy Spirit, you can not be UN-born Spiritually.

 

[RJ]

I've never thought of it that way

:laugh: LOL!!!! Just goes to show how precious life is...even an Old Dog like us can still learn a new trick!!!

 

[amadeus2]

Yes, just like you have your physical born from your mother and can not be UN-born physically, so it is with your spiritual or second birth by the Holy Spirit, you can not be UN-born Spiritually.

But... is the second death even a possibility for anyone who has never been born again? Who is it a possibility for?

 

[Thiscrosshurts]

But... is the second death even a possibility for anyone who has never been born again? Who is it a possibility for?

Those in Adam are dead,all stillborn who have never seen the light of the real day.
Jesus said to a certain man,"let the dead bury their dead".

The new birth is not a regeneration of the old body of death it is a new creature completely.
Jesus is firstborn into life.

Living and life are vastly different things,one is running out of life and the other is always pouring out life into everything it touches.
Living in a physical body is death row,life in the spirit is eternal.

In the new life there is neither male nor female,neither Jew nor Greek.
The word person comes from persona which means a false face.
In the spirit we are one,many is legion,a legion of false faces.
If you are born of God you are one not the many.

 

[RJ]

But... is the second death even a possibility for anyone who has never been born again? Who is it a possibility for?

• is the second death even a possibility for anyone who has never been born again?.....It is not only possible but a Biblical fact. The "second death" is a spiritual death and a result of not being born again spiritually. Romans 6:23
  
• Who is it a possibility for?.....it is only possible for the non-believer. John 3:36

 

[Brother-Paul]

OSAS, O my, what an explosive topic.

John 15:1-6 (NKJV)
1 "I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser.
2 Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit.
3 You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you.
4 Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in Me.
5 I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing.
6 If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned.

A grapevine branch can survive and produce foliage for a while after it has been severed, but it cannot produce fruit unless it is connected to a root stock. As Jesus had a living dependence on the Father, [see John 6:47] so believers in Jesus need to have a living dependence on him.

John 6:47 (NKJV)
47 Most assuredly, I say to you, he who believes in Me has everlasting life.

(He who believes, not he who has fallen away, he who no longer believes, 'Most Assuredly' Jesus says)

They cannot bear fruit without being connected to the vine.

We cannot bear fruit, or remain in the vine unless Jesus is in us, unless we abide in Him and He in us.

Therefore, it is essential that they completely trust Jesus, or they will not be connected to the source of life. [John 15:6]

John 6:53-58 (NKJV)
53 Then Jesus said to them, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, you have no life in you.
54 Whoever eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day.
55 For My flesh is food indeed, and My blood is drink indeed.
56 He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood abides in Me, and I in him.
57 As the living Father sent Me, and I live because of the Father, so he who feeds on Me will live because of Me.
58 This is the bread which came down from heaven--not as your fathers ate the manna, and are dead. He who eats this bread will live forever."

For a person who has fallen away from our Lord, he no longer abides in Him so Jesus cannot abide in the person.

The person who was believed but now does not no longer abides in Christ, he/she 'no longer eats My flesh and drinks My blood', says Jesus, he/she is no longer fruitful and is pruned from the vine, 'cut off' from the life giving source!

John 15:1-2 (NKJV)
1 "I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser.
2 Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit.

John 15:6 (NKJV)
6 If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned.

 

[Chopper]

John3:1-3
There was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews:
2 The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him.
3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

Good one RJ. I was thinking of these verses. We may be missing a very important Truth here. Look at what Jesus said about the re-birth....

John 3:5 "Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
3:7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
3:8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit."

We are not talking about a human, or, fleshly birth, we are talking about a Spiritual birth!! How can anyone fathom, this side of Glory, what happens in the Spiritual realm. We are "born of the Spirit" therefore if that birth is to be reversed, it must be done by the Spirit of God. If Jesus commits Himself....
John 2:23 "Now when he was in Jerusalem at the passover, in the feast day, many believed in his name, when they saw the miracles which he did.
2:24 But Jesus did not commit himself unto them, because he knew all men,"....

If Jesus commits Himself to someone believing in Him by faith for Salvation, that is a commitment to a new Believer! Since God never changes, I really doubt that Jesus, in the Spiritual realm will pull that Salvation away from him. Re-birth is a Spiritual matter, not of human origin. Human commitments are so fickle, Spiritual commitments are everlasting.

 

[Chopper]

But... is the second death even a possibility for anyone who has never been born again? Who is it a possibility for?

I'm not sure what you're asking here my friend. The second death IS for those who were never born again, right?

 

[Br. Bear]

Greetings,

Spiritual commitments are everlasting.

a new covenant...
a covenant made by the LORD.

He does not, can not, lie.

His Word is Truth. He has given us His Word.

Bless you ....><>