The Law or not the Law that is the question?

[amadeus2]

On the operation of law and grace. It's quite simple, you can't give someone a gift and ask them to work for it.

No, but are we not to properly use the gift that we have received?

"But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth." Acts 1:8

The Church as a whole receives many gifts from God to accomplish His work, but individuals all receive the power mentioned above. It is not power to win arguments [although some seem to think that it is], but power to do the work of God. What is God's work for us?

Specifically He gave to the Church some for very special work:

"And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:' Eph 4:11-13

But, Jesus spoke of the work in a more general way:

"This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent." John 6:29

Some people want to say that if they simply believe that Jesus is the Messiah and the Son of God, it is enough. But it is not! On another thread recently I asked the question, "What does it mean to believe?" It is also important here. Our work consists in believing in Jesus, but that means more than just confession made with our mouth. Not all of us are called to be among the five-fold ministry of Eph 4:11, but all of us are called for something special.

This is not working FOR the gift, but working with it, making use of it. Have we received more than one gift from God? Undoubtedly.

There are so many portions of scripture that paint the picture from Adam/Eve to Jesus. Cain, Noahs ark, 'the lamb' provided, the covenant God made with Abraham etc

Thanks for Acts 15:10


*thoughts*
Nice thread summary. Someone taught me something recently which I'm still figuring out. God 'did not give' the law directly, humans asked for it, an angel brought it and moses collected it. I guess that's why it's called Moses law...and Moses will be the one to judge those who follow it...John 5:45
*thoughts*

Now you have given me something to think about... "God did not give the law directly". Men asked for it. Hmmm! I know that in the OT men went against God in asking for a king when God was already their King, if they were only to accept it and acknowledge it. Was there a similar thing happening with the children of Israel in the wilderness with regard to the law given to Moses? Please clarify.

 

[Thiscrosshurts]

Now you have given me something to think about... "God did not give the law directly". Men asked for it. Hmmm! I know that in the OT men went against God in asking for a king when God was already their King, if they were only to accept it and acknowledge it. Was there a similar thing happening with the children of Israel in the wilderness with regard to the law given to Moses? Please clarify.

That makes sense to me when I consider that Moses was in the mountain and the people below were rebelling.
The Mosaic covenant seems to have been given during and perhaps even in response to the peoples rejection of Moses.
The law was given by Angels and is administered by Angels and still is as far as I can understand.
This covenant was obviously more harsh than the covenant with Abraham.It does not seem like a very good deal in my opinion.
The rest of the world remained in the covenant of Noah and until they believe in Jesus they still seem(to me) to be under that covenant.

New Living Translation
Galatians 3:19 Why, then, was the law given? It was given alongside the promise to show people their sins. But the law was designed to last only until the coming of the child who was promised. God gave his law through angels to Moses, who was the mediator between God and the people
Most translations exclude "God gave".
Acts 7:38 He was in the assembly in the wilderness, with the angel who spoke to him on Mount Sinai, and with our ancestors; and he received living words to pass on to us.
Acts 7:53 you who have received the law that was given through angels but have not obeyed it."
Hebrews 2:2 For since the message spoken through angels was binding, and every violation and disobedience received its just punishment,

Right after the law was given the people rejected what they called "the Lord".
Exodus 20:19 and said to Moses, "Speak to us yourself and we will listen. But do not have God speak to us or we will die."
Moses had to intercede before this Angel who was ready to wipe out Israel and use Moses's family as a replacement.

Jesus said all who came before him are thieves and robbers.
Jesus revealed the truth that God is love.
Personally I don't think Angels fully understand love.

Job 4:18 Behold, he put no trust in his servants; and his angels he charged with folly:

 

[amadeus2]

That makes sense to me when I consider that Moses was in the mountain and the people below were rebelling.
The Mosaic covenant seems to have been given during and perhaps even in response to the peoples rejection of Moses.
The law was given by Angels and is administered by Angels and still is as far as I can understand.
This covenant was obviously more harsh than the covenant with Abraham.It does not seem like a very good deal in my opinion.
The rest of the world remained in the covenant of Noah and until they believe in Jesus they still seem(to me) to be under that covenant.

New Living Translation
Galatians 3:19 Why, then, was the law given? It was given alongside the promise to show people their sins. But the law was designed to last only until the coming of the child who was promised. God gave his law through angels to Moses, who was the mediator between God and the people
Most translations exclude "God gave".

Of course, the words "God gave" were not in the original languages. The words were used by the translators to clarify the English or to make it make sense in English. Some of the better, or older, or more accurate (take your choice) editions of KJV Bibles will have such words italicized to indicate that they were translator's insertions not derived from any original Hebrew or Aramaic or Greek words.

Acts 7:38 He was in the assembly in the wilderness, with the angel who spoke to him on Mount Sinai, and with our ancestors; and he received living words to pass on to us.
Acts 7:53 you who have received the law that was given through angels but have not obeyed it."
Hebrews 2:2 For since the message spoken through angels was binding, and every violation and disobedience received its just punishment,

Right after the law was given the people rejected what they called "the Lord".
Exodus 20:19 and said to Moses, "Speak to us yourself and we will listen. But do not have God speak to us or we will die."
Moses had to intercede before this Angel who was ready to wipe out Israel and use Moses's family as a replacement.

Jesus said all who came before him are thieves and robbers.
Jesus revealed the truth that God is love.
Personally I don't think Angels fully understand love.

Job 4:18 Behold, he put no trust in his servants; and his angels he charged with folly:

But, the word "angel" itself is simply another rendering of the word "messenger". How are we to know which messengers carried a valid message [from God] and how many simply wanted to run in that race like a messenger? Consider the two messengers who ran from Joab to David after a battle: Cushi and Ahimaaz. Cushi had a message, but Ahimaaz simply wanted to have one [II Sam 18]. Perhaps there are angels of God, would be angels of God and false angels and fallen angels. How can we know which ones are which? I believe that there angels of heavenly origin sent by God as well angels of earthly origin also sent by God. Some of these seemingly have fallen, but that is another subject, isn't it?

But... your point may be valid. Hopefully, Mimi, will be able to clarify further...

 

[Thiscrosshurts]

How are we to know which messengers carried a valid message [from God] and how many simply wanted to run in that race like a messenger?

John 10:8 All that ever came before me are thieves and robbers: but the sheep did not hear them.
I don't think it a stretch to say that all that ever came after him were also thieves and robbers.
Maybe that's why he was crucified between thieves.
I only believe on one.
Let every man be a liar but let God be true.

1 John 2:27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.

 

[amadeus2]

John 10:8 All that ever came before me are thieves and robbers: but the sheep did not hear them.
I don't think it a stretch to say that all that ever came after him were also thieves and robbers.
Maybe that's why he was crucified between thieves.
I only believe on one.
Let every man be a liar but let God be true.

1 John 2:27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.

You're certainly right on there being only one. We agree on who it is, but for the doubter or the unbeliever or even another believer, who asks, uncertain, which one is clearly always the right one may not be clear.

 

[Thiscrosshurts]

You're certainly right on there being only one. We agree on who it is, but for the doubter or the unbeliever or even another believer, who asks, uncertain, which one is clearly always the right one may not be clear.

For me there is only one that does not bring pain.
As an unbeliever I didn't even know I was in pain.
Now if I deviate from the path of love I experience extreme anxiety almost instantly.
Perfect love casts out fear and with fear goes anxiety.
It's like living in the eye of a hurricane that seems move around and get tighter and tighter.
If I try to walk ahead of the center I get pulled into the winds and get spun around with the world.
If I don't get back in quick I may forget that a center even exists or that it can be attained again.
Eventually the pain becomes too great and I cry out in love,for love.
Over the years love taught me how to remember that "peace is" and that it can be attained.
Love never fails and leads me back to the center.
In the center I can reach out to those in the storm but I risk getting caught up unless I follow loves instruction to the letter.

The one is love and in that love I can do all things love wants me to do.
Everything else ends up in turmoil and pain.

 

[B-A-C]

I think this thread about the law - may be straying just a tiny bit

Titus 2:11; For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all men,
Titus 2:12; instructing us to deny ungodliness and worldly desires and to live sensibly, righteously and godly in the present age,

 

[Thiscrosshurts]

I think this thread about the law - may be straying just a tiny bit

Not at all,laws are straying from the "one" law.
God is love.
The law is love.

Mark 12:29 Jesus answered, “The most important is, ‘Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one.
Mark 12:30 and you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind, and with all your strength.

Laws and rules are fear based and not of love.
fear itself is sin because it reveals unbelief.
When God writes his law of love in our heart we will know it is from God and not being generated by our imagination.
Love says to overcome evil with good.To do good to those who intend or inflict harm on you.

Love and laws are worlds apart.
1 Corinthians 10:24 No one should seek their own good, but the good of others.
1 Corinthians 13:4 Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud.
1 Corinthians 13:5 It does not demand its own way. It is not irritable, and it keeps no record of being wronged.

If love does these things then God does these things
We can't do these things without God.

 

[Mimi]

No, but are we not to properly use the gift that we have received?

Sure. Grace is a gift that not only saves from us sure death, but also empowers us (transforms us) to live like Christ.

"This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent." John 6:29

Some people want to say that if they simply believe that Jesus is the Messiah and the Son of God, it is enough. But it is not! On another thread recently I asked the question, "What does it mean to believe?" It is also important here. Our work consists in believing in Jesus, but that means more than just confession made with our mouth. Not all of us are called to be among the five-fold ministry of Eph 4:11, but all of us are called for something special.

This is not working FOR the gift, but working with it, making use of it. Have we received more than one gift from God? Undoubtedly.

Why isn't it enough though? Believe in/on in the Bible means to Trust in God and God's work of grace, sending Jesus to die for us sinners. So I don't know why we want to add to that. Confession is a very good start, afterall it's usually what is in the heart is what comes out of the mouth, only God knows who is making a genuine confession, please see: Guy on the Cross beside Jesus.

Definitely it's wise to work with the gift, but that is a different thing from receiving the gift.

Now you have given me something to think about... "God did not give the law directly". Men asked for it. Hmmm! I know that in the OT men went against God in asking for a king when God was already their King, if they were only to accept it and acknowledge it. Was there a similar thing happening with the children of Israel in the wilderness with regard to the law given to Moses? Please clarify.

I'm only just learning about this myself...

 

[amadeus2]

Amadeus2: "This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent." John 6:29
Some people want to say that if they simply believe that Jesus is the Messiah and the Son of God, it is enough. But it is not! On another thread recently I asked the question, "What does it mean to believe?" It is also important here. Our work consists in believing in Jesus, but that means more than just confession made with our mouth. Not all of us are called to be among the five-fold ministry of Eph 4:11, but all of us are called for something special.

This is not working FOR the gift, but working with it, making use of it. Have we received more than one gift from God? Undoubtedly.

Mimi:
Why isn't it enough though? Believe in/on in the Bible means to Trust in God and God's work of grace, sending Jesus to die for us sinners. So I don't know why we want to add to that. Confession is a very good start, afterall it's usually what is in the heart is what comes out of the mouth, only God knows who is making a genuine confession, please see: Guy on the Cross beside Jesus.

Go then to James:

" Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works." James 2:17-18

The guy on the cross by Jesus had no more time. He used what little he had well. We, on the other hand, have more time so we must do more in order to do well in the eyes of God. Our faith must result in works or it is dead. The works may be carried out by us, but those works are instigated by the Holy Spirit of God in us.. if we are being led by that Spirit. If we are quenching that Holy Spirit in us and leading ourselves, then the works we will do will be dead works, accounted as nothing in the eyes of God.

 

[amadeus2]

I'm only just learning about this myself...

When and if God gives you a revelation on it, please share it with us here.

Give God the glory!

 

[Mimi]

That makes sense to me when I consider that Moses was in the mountain and the people below were rebelling.
The Mosaic covenant seems to have been given during and perhaps even in response to the peoples rejection of Moses.
The law was given by Angels and is administered by Angels and still is as far as I can understand.
This covenant was obviously more harsh than the covenant with Abraham.It does not seem like a very good deal in my opinion.
The rest of the world remained in the covenant of Noah and until they believe in Jesus they still seem(to me) to be under that covenant.

New Living Translation
Galatians 3:19 Why, then, was the law given? It was given alongside the promise to show people their sins. But the law was designed to last only until the coming of the child who was promised. God gave his law through angels to Moses, who was the mediator between God and the people
Most translations exclude "God gave".
Acts 7:38 He was in the assembly in the wilderness, with the angel who spoke to him on Mount Sinai, and with our ancestors; and he received living words to pass on to us.
Acts 7:53 you who have received the law that was given through angels but have not obeyed it."
Hebrews 2:2 For since the message spoken through angels was binding, and every violation and disobedience received its just punishment,

Right after the law was given the people rejected what they called "the Lord".
Exodus 20:19 and said to Moses, "Speak to us yourself and we will listen. But do not have God speak to us or we will die."
Moses had to intercede before this Angel who was ready to wipe out Israel and use Moses's family as a replacement.

Jesus said all who came before him are thieves and robbers.
Jesus revealed the truth that God is love.
Personally I don't think Angels fully understand love.

Job 4:18 Behold, he put no trust in his servants; and his angels he charged with folly:

Thanks for all these verses, this is the most interesting thing I'm learning in recent times. Right after discovering God made all animals Vegan!

 

[Mimi]

Go then to James:

" Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works." James 2:17-18

The guy on the cross by Jesus had no more time. He used what little he had well. We, on the other hand, have more time so we must do more in order to do well in the eyes of God. Our faith must result in works or it is dead. The works may be carried out by us, but those works are instigated by the Holy Spirit of God in us.. if we are being led by that Spirit. If we are quenching that Holy Spirit in us and leading ourselves, then the works we will do will be dead works, accounted as nothing in the eyes of God.

Anyone who is truly transformed by God's grace will have some works to show. It might not be what you see.

 

[amadeus2]

Anyone who is truly transformed by God's grace will have some works to show. It might not be what you see.

Indeed it may not... God does know.

 

[Mimi]

Now if I deviate from the path of love I experience extreme anxiety almost instantly.
Perfect love casts out fear and with fear goes anxiety.

I really like these words as it's what I've been experiencing. I used to be very vengeful and justified it logically. Now, if I 'deviate from the path of love' I feel ashamed almost instantly from within. I think that the words (Romans 2:14-15) really come alive.