Thoughts on Job

[Chad4Him]

Please over look any typos.
.....that the thing which I greatly feared is come upon me......I was not in safety.....neither had I rest......neither was I quiet.....yet trouble came.....

I

Thanks for that - very interesting! I don't see it as "cut and dried" as you do and IMO there is a lot of supposition... but it could be that Job was too overtaken with cares and fears, carefully managing his estate and fearing that it he would lose it all... definitely a plausible theory but I don't think you can say without a doubt that this is the case, from the verse you lifted out.

It appears that ".I was not in safety.....neither had I rest......neither was I quiet.....yet trouble came" is actually in the present tense in the Hebrew. Here is what the ESV says:

English Standard Version
I am not at ease, nor am I quiet; I have no rest, but trouble comes. Job 3:26

If you look at the preceding verses, including the part where he says "what I fear has befallen me":

24For my sighing comes instead ofa my bread,
and my groanings are poured out like water.
25For the thing that I fear comes upon me,
and what I dread befalls me.

To me that whole chapter looks like poetic words of Job in anguish before God, saying how the worst thing he could have imagined has come true. I wouldn't see this as proof that Satan attacked Job because of fear.

But again, thanks for your explanation, interesting and plausible theory in this mysterious story.

To me this story shows us that no matter how careful we are, how "right" and how good a life we live, we are still needy before God, and when He reveals Himself to us there is no other place for us to be than on our face on the ground, repenting in dust and ashes.

 

[KingJ]

Guys, God tests His people. It is a known fact throughout scripture. He does not lead us into temptation. But He does test us. He wants us to have rewards in heaven. He wants to see and He wants us to see what we are made of. He uses the devil for this. He uses the wicked for this. He uses nature for this.

We can't say ''well God knows everything already, why test us''. Leave that statement for a separate thread discussing the existence of true free will. Scripture is ''CRYSTAL'' that God deals with us on an expectation basis. He did not say to Abraham 'I know you will sacrifice your child for me so I am not going to ask it of you''. Please do not assume to grasp God and the truth to free will just because you grasp the dictionary definition of the word omniscience.

Job was a righteous man who was tested. Before the testing His crown read ''faithful servant who endured and performed x and y''. Now his crown reads ''extremely faithful servant who endured the worst the devil could throw at him''. What a crown to wear for all eternity! God does not put us through what Job endured, for a good reason.

It is so disrespectful and insulting to say Job brought it upon himself because he had fear. The opposite of faith. Like how far and desperate are faith teacher reaching for a straw that tarnishes the message of Job?????Scripture literally says Job 1:12 And the Lord said to Satan, “Behold, all that he has is in your power; only do not lay a hand on his person. That is a stand alone verse. No context, no understanding, nothing needs to be added to it to grasp its true meaning.

The message we get from Job is powerful. Which is why it was included in scripture. Namely, life can be very difficult for those who serve God. Despite God being omnipotent and His people having His full favor.

Some scriptures on testing:

James 1:12 Blessed is the man who remains steadfast under trial, for when he has stood the test he will receive the crown of life, which God has promised to those who love him
James 1:3 for you know that the testing of your faith produces steadfastness.
Isaiah 48:10 Behold, I have refined you, but not as silver; I have tried you in the furnace of affliction.
Heb 11:17-19 By faith Abraham, when he was tested, offered up Isaac.
Psalm 26:2 Prove me, O Lord, and try me; test my heart and my mind.

My favorite verse from Job is Job 1:22 In all this Job did not sin or charge God with wrong.

 

[Dave M]

Isaiah 55:8-9
For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, declares the Lord. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways and my thoughts than your thoughts.

I think what man see's sometime as tragedy, God see's the big picture and it is actually victory and a good thing.

 

[Bendito]

What are you smokin? What do you base this absurdity that Noah and his family were the only humans on the earth on?

Jesus cannot be exalted above measure, either by Himself or others. He is worthy of all exaltation. And so He is not affected negatively through any self-exhaltation. So that comparison does not apply. satan is just as happy to have a Christian exalt himself above measure as he would a non-believer. For that is the sin of satan. Self-exaltation turns into self worship. Thus the warning in (1 Tim. 3:6) "Not a novice, lest being lifted up with pride he fall into the condemnation of the devil."

So, no. It is God who is concerned over anyone being exalted above measure. And such revelations and knowledge from God would bring just that. It is not as though fallen humanity has a choice in the matter. Such revelations and knowledge from God would destroy the individual unless God sends a thorn in the flesh to curb it. And so he did.

And concerning your comment that God didn't kill anyone, you can add Nadab and Abihu to that list of three thousand, as well as those in the flood, as well as Ananias and Sapphira. (Lev. 10:1-2) And add another 14,000 plus to that with Korah and his followers. (Num. 16:30-50) Do you need more or is that sufficient to disprove your comment?
Quantrill[/QUOTE

LOL What am I smoking? I like that. I ask others the same questions sometimes. So let me ask you a couple questions....Did you go to a bible college? and What version of the Bible do you prefer?

First.....I want to go on record that I conceded God killed three thousand people that day for these simple reasons.... 1 I don't want to continue an argument for no reason. 2 I have never looked into the dynamics of that event. If I do get to that point, and find my answer, I'll pick up the argument then. Is that fair enough?

Now May I assume that you have read Genesis chapter 6?

Genesis 6:4 There were giants on the earth in those days, and also afterward, when the sons of Most High God came in to the daughters of men and they bore [children] to
them. Those [were] the mighty men who [were] of old, men of renown.
A horrific event happened thousands of years ago that, if the written account is true and I believe it is, resulted in the devastation of the surface of the earth and wiped out
most of the human race, except for eight people. I’m speaking about the event known as The Flood of Noah.

What we see from the text is that a group of fallen angels came down on the earth and had sex with the women resulting in a hybrid called the Nephilim.

I believe that the purpose of the incursion of the fallen angels, and what was behind their nefarious plan, was to contaminate the DNA of the human race and by doing so
negate the prophecy of the seed of the woman, or the promise of the Messiah that was given shortly after the fall in the garden. The Fallen One sought to
contaminate the bloodline and almost succeeded in doing so, which is why we read in Genesis an enigmatic scripture that singles out a specific aspect of Noah.


(Gen 6:9) This is the genealogy of Noah. Noah was a just man, perfect in his generations. Noah walked with Most High God.
The word perfect is translated from the word tamiyn, which means complete, whole, entire, sound. In other words, Noah and the other seven people who were stowed
away with all of the animals on the Ark were not contaminated with fallen angel DNA.


From what is written in the above passage(Gen 6:9) , can we come to grips with the idea that the Fallen One will stop at nothing to accomplish his goal,
which is to destroy mankind and eventually set himself up as a god to be worshiped in the rebuilt Temple in Jerusalem?
The presence of the fallen angels on earth and the subsequent hybrid offspring, known as the Nephilim, almost wiped out the promise of the coming messiah. Had the plan been
successful, the goal being the contamination of the human bloodline, there would have been no messiah possible, thus negating the prophecy, proving the Most High
God a liar, and making the Fallen One the winner

 

[Bendito]

So a question to you gentlemen.

- Do you think Job opened the door for satan??

- Can satan just go around attacking anyone, or does there have to be a door opened for him to operate?

Me personally, I am not clear on this,

I know this thread will get some great discussion

I know that most Christians like to think that Job had the Mary Poppins syndrome. That is to say; Practically perfect in every way. He was however only a man. Like we are. He had his weaknesses just like us. As I said before, he got into fear, which means he got out of faith and into sin. Living in fear IS living in sin....It was fear that opened to door to Satan's attack on him. Its not a complicated thing.
The problem comes in when people read Job Ch 1:1 and translate it to mean that Job was sinless and perfect. That's a mistranslation of the Word.

The word 'perfect' means;

1. 
   one who lacks nothing in physical strength, beauty, etc
   1. sound, wholesome
      1. an ordinary, quiet sort of person
   2. complete, morally innocent, having integrity
      1. one who is morally and ethically pure
2. So Job was a good man....but he was still a man. He still sinned, but he would confess it quickly so as to remain in Gods good graces....But this fear thing....It was a big thing to him. And he acted in fear, not faith by all the sacrifices...

And no, Satan cannot go around attacking the people of God without a legal entry. He is still subject to the legalities...laid down at the creation

 

[Bendito]

Wired 4 Fishen

Concerning your post [HASH=1560]#(31[/HASH]):

You have created in Job sins that are not there. His concern for his children and offering sacrifices to God for them was a man in obedience to God, walking in faith with God. You are wrong that Job repented of any of this as there was no need for repentance. Job repented of questioning God as to why this suffering was come upon him.

You are equally wrong in suggesting it was satans idea to come against Job. Scripture is clear. (Job 1:8) God directed satan's attention to Job. satan understood this as he said in (Job 1:11) to God, "put forth thine hand". Whose hand? God's hand. See also (Job 2:5). "But put forth thine hand" Whose hand? God's hand.

You and others who agree with you are just as Job's three friends who constantly accused him. You should consider (Job 42:7) "And it was so, that after the LORD had spoken these words unto Job, the LORD said to Eliphaz the Temanite, My wrath is kindled against thee, and against thy two friends: for ye have not spoken of me the thing that is right, as my servant Job hath."

Quantrill

Now Mr Quantrilll Look at the verses you just quoted....Who's idea was it to attack Job? It was Satans idea. God was boasting on his man, how good he was and Satan came up with the idea of destroying him. Satan, not God, is the destroyer.

 

[Quantrill]

Bendito

Concerning your post #44:

No, it is not fair enough. You erroneously said God did not kill anyone. You concede the 3000. Big deal. There are thousands more as I have showed and I can continue to show. Especially in the flood where you came up with this falsification about those who died in the flood were not humans. What lunacy. So yes, my question remains. What are you smokin? And if you need more proof that God has killed multitudes of people, let me know.

Even if the angels did cohabit with human women, it doesn't mean that all human women cohabited with angels. It doesn't mean that there were no humans on the earth except Noah and his family. Pay attention to the Scriptures. (Genesis 6:5-7) Note how many times the word 'man' is used. "And GOD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart. And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast......"

Your fantasia of an idea that Noah was the only human on earth is nothing but that, fantasy.

Quantrill

 

[Quantrill]

Now Mr Quantrilll Look at the verses you just quoted....Who's idea was it to attack Job? It was Satans idea. God was boasting on his man, how good he was and Satan came up with the idea of destroying him. Satan, not God, is the destroyer.

Why are you asking me again when I just showed you that it was God's idea. (Job 1:8) God doesn't 'boast' without purpose. God does nothing without purpose. satan had the idea of destroying anyone who was a child of God. God opened the door for him to have Job.

satan knew it. That is why he said in (1:11) and (2:5), "put forth thy hand". satan had enough sense to know whose hand it was. Perhaps you should learn from him.

Quantrill

 

[Chad4Him]

But this fear thing....It was a big thing to him. And he acted in fear, not faith by all the sacrifices...

Quick question - is this "fear" that Job had any different than normal fears experienced by anyone - or any Christian today? (I realize Job wasn't a "Christian" but that's beside the point.)

 

[KingJ]

Satan would like nothing better than to get to all of God's people and kill them all.

I was thinking on this today. It is so true. I was trying to understand why he is so driven. Why he accepts ''being used'' if I can say.

He sees corrupting people, especially the good as prizes, achievements. He craves it. He desires it.

God does protect us all, so it is not like a pedophile is left alone with children. But we need to understand that that is the devils mindset. He thinks like that pedophile. Like that rapist. Like that murderer.

 

[Bendito]

Bendito

Concerning your post #44:

No, it is not fair enough. You erroneously said God did not kill anyone. You concede the 3000. Big deal. There are thousands more as I have showed and I can continue to show. Especially in the flood where you came up with this falsification about those who died in the flood were not humans. What lunacy. So yes, my question remains. What are you smokin? And if you need more proof that God has killed multitudes of people, let me know.

E 2 ven if the angels did cohabit with human women, it doesn't mean that all human women cohabited with angels. It doesn't mean that there were no humans on the earth except Noah and his family. Pay attention to the Scriptures. (Genesis 6:5-7) Note how many times the word 'man' is used. "And GOD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart. And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast......"

Your fantasia of an idea that Noah was the only human on earth is nothing but that, fantasy.

Quantrill

Oh? I'm a liar because you don't read the Book, and know very little about it. It must seem like science fiction to you but the truth is...The Word says what I told you. It's long past time for you to get into the Word and do some real research on exactly wheat the Word says and take those silly doctrines you like so much and trash them.
You say it's not fair for me to decline to argue about something I don't know about.....Hmmmm...What kind of games do you play?!

You said "Even if the angels did cohabit with human women, it doesn't mean that all human women cohabited with angels." What?! If they lived together, as the Word says, they lived together....Cohabiting is a two way street...But then...you don't read.
What does it mean when the Word says that Noah was perfect in his generations? Can you give me an intelligent answer? Generations....genetics. As I said above, the DNA of the human race was corrupted. All with the exception of Noah and seven others were corrupted....The DNA of the entire population of the Earth was corrupted so they were no longer human....Genesis 6

I research continually....I don't just bounce off a page and call it getting into the Word. Sir! Wake up and learn something.

 

[Bendito]

Why are you asking me again when I just showed you that it was God's idea. (Job 1:8) God doesn't 'boast' without purpose. God does nothing without purpose. satan had the idea of destroying anyone who was a child of God. God opened the door for him to have Job.

satan knew it. That is why he said in (1:11) and (2:5), "put forth thy hand". satan had enough sense to know whose hand it was. Perhaps you should learn from him.

Quantrill

No sir....You showed me where God was bragging on His man....Satan was the one who said "put forth thy hand". not God.

Satan said "4 And Satan answered the Lord, and said, Skin for skin, yea, all that a man hath will he give for his life." God did not say that..Satan did. But you don't read do you?


5 But put forth thine hand now, and touch his bone and his flesh, and he will curse thee to thy face. You continually blame God for things that Satan speaks...Satans ideas.
And why are you so damnably hostile anyway?

 

[Bendito]

Quick question - is this "fear" that Job had any different than normal fears experienced by anyone - or any Christian today? (I realize Job wasn't a "Christian" but that's beside the point.)

Nope. No different at all....You see....fear is an entity. If you pay attention to it, if you agree with it, it's got you and you are putting your trust in what it can do to you rather than trusting in what God can do in you.
Yes Fear is a human emotion, but there are spirits that work with that specific area. The spirit of fear. Noah did not have the Book....The Book says God did not give you the spirit of fear but of power and Love and a sound mind.

 

[Wired 4 Fishen]

Quick question - is this "fear" that Job had any different than normal fears experienced by anyone - or any Christian today? (I realize Job wasn't a "Christian" but that's beside the point.)

Fear is fear and is nothing more then perverted twisted faith and has NO place in a Christians life

 

[KingJ]

Oh? I'm a liar because you don't read the Book, and know very little about it. It must seem like science fiction to you but the truth is...The Word says what I told you. It's long past time for you to get into the Word and do some real research on exactly wheat the Word says and take those silly doctrines you like so much and trash them.
You say it's not fair for me to decline to argue about something I don't know about.....Hmmmm...What kind of games do you play?!

You said "Even if the angels did cohabit with human women, it doesn't mean that all human women cohabited with angels." What?! If they lived together, as the Word says, they lived together....Cohabiting is a two way street...But then...you don't read.
What does it mean when the Word says that Noah was perfect in his generations? Can you give me an intelligent answer? Generations....genetics. As I said above, the DNA of the human race was corrupted. All with the exception of Noah and seven others were corrupted....The DNA of the entire population of the Earth was corrupted so they were no longer human....Genesis 6

I research continually....I don't just bounce off a page and call it getting into the Word. Sir! Wake up and learn something.

When reading about giants or any scripture that hints of aliens. You need to just think for a while on the reason mankind needs a Savior and God's hand being on all creation / all creation being good.

Mankind is accountable for sin because of their intelligence levels. These giants, if they were a different breed of man and were once babies, God who is impartial would have to include them in the plan for salvation, not separate them. So, I cannot believe, just on it being illogical and conflicting with much other scripture, that there were giants as a separate race. The best I can fathom is that in an evil society demonic presence would be rife. They could probably take on the form of some man given the opportunity by God. I can agree that some humans were larger then others.

But with all this said the fact remains that the flood came upon mankind because of their wickedness. Just as Sodom, they were wicked continually and had no desire of ever repenting. Gen 6:5 the Lord saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intention of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.

 

[Quantrill]

Oh? I'm a liar because you don't read the Book, and know very little about it. It must seem like science fiction to you but the truth is...The Word says what I told you. It's long past time for you to get into the Word and do some real research on exactly wheat the Word says and take those silly doctrines you like so much and trash them.
You say it's not fair for me to decline to argue about something I don't know about.....Hmmmm...What kind of games do you play?!

You said "Even if the angels did cohabit with human women, it doesn't mean that all human women cohabited with angels." What?! If they lived together, as the Word says, they lived together....Cohabiting is a two way street...But then...you don't read.
What does it mean when the Word says that Noah was perfect in his generations? Can you give me an intelligent answer? Generations....genetics. As I said above, the DNA of the human race was corrupted. All with the exception of Noah and seven others were corrupted....The DNA of the entire population of the Earth was corrupted so they were no longer human....Genesis 6

I research continually....I don't just bounce off a page and call it getting into the Word. Sir! Wake up and learn something.

I read enough to know that God has killed vast multitudes of people when you claimed He didn't. And, I didn't have to read too far to learn that. So what you need to do is admit you didnt' know what you were talking about when you made that statement. In other words, no that is not fair enough. You made the statement. Fess up to it.

And just as you were wrong in that, you are equally wrong in suggesting that Noah and his family were the only human beings at the time of the flood. I gave you the Scripture. I noticed you ignored it. (Gen. 6:5-6)

'Generations' is just that. The generations of Noah are his family. Just like the generations of Adam are of his family. (Gen. 5:1) The human race was corrupt since Adam. Not since the sons of God cohabited with the daughters of men. Noah was perfect in his generations in that he was faithful to all that he could be with the amount of knowledge he had from God.

Quantrill

 

[KingJ]

Fear is fear and is nothing more then perverted twisted faith and has NO place in a Christians life

Job feared for His sons. Fear of the Lord is good. It is a sign of wisdom. That is the fear Job had.

Psalm 112:1 Praise the LORD! How blessed is the man who fears the LORD, Who greatly delights in His commandments.
Prov 28:14 How blessed is the man who fears always, But he who hardens his heart will fall into calamity.
Psalm 34:7 The angel of the LORD encamps around those who fear Him, And rescues them.
Ecc 8:12-13 Although a sinner does evil a hundred times and may lengthen his life, still I know that it will be well for those who fear God, who fear Him openly. But it will not be well for the evil man and he will not lengthen his days like a shadow, because he does not fear God.

 

[Quantrill]

No sir....You showed me where God was bragging on His man....Satan was the one who said "put forth thy hand". not God.

Satan said "4 And Satan answered the Lord, and said, Skin for skin, yea, all that a man hath will he give for his life." God did not say that..Satan did. But you don't read do you?


5 But put forth thine hand now, and touch his bone and his flesh, and he will curse thee to thy face. You continually blame God for things that Satan speaks...Satans ideas.
And why are you so damnably hostile anyway?

No, I showed you that God does not boast without purpose. He directed satan's attention to Job. Yes, satan did say 'put forth thy hand' because he knew whose hand was put forth to trouble Job. In other words, he knew then more than you know now.

No, I am not blaming God. I am believing what God is saying.

I have little patience for myth makers when it comes to the Bible.

Quantrill

 

[Chad4Him]

Fear is fear and is nothing more then perverted twisted faith and has NO place in a Christians life

I agree that fear should not control us. But the reality is that we are faced with fears - and it is not always easy to completely give them over to God. Sometimes words on a page and reality are two different things. :smile: Many times I need to pray "increase my faith".

I do not think Job's "fear" for his children etc. is strange at all or uncommon, so this would mean that many people today are under severe attack by opening the door to the devil in this manner. Of course, fear can be crippling and can really hamper our walk with God but He invites us to place our trust in Him and cast our cares upon Him.

I guess I am just not seeing it that Job opened the door to the fierce attack of Satan because he had a perverted twisted faith. The bible does not give that picture at all but says he sinned not. So it seems to me that in order to fit a narrative or idea on "how God or Satan legally works", that undue emphasis is placed on an obscure verse where Job talks about "the things he feared have come upon him".

Nonetheless you have given me food for thought.

 

[Bendito]

I read enough to know that God has killed vast multitudes of people when you claimed He didn't. And, I didn't have to read too far to learn that. So what you need to do is admit you didnt' know what you were talking about when you made that statement. In other words, no that is not fair enough. You made the statement. Fess up to it.

And just as you were wrong in that, you are equally wrong in suggesting that Noah and his family were the only human beings at the time of the flood. I gave you the Scripture. I noticed you ignored it. (Gen. 6:5-6)

'Generations' is just that. The generations of Noah are his family. Just like the generations of Adam are of his family. (Gen. 5:1) The human race was corrupt since Adam. Not since the sons of God cohabited with the daughters of men. Noah was perfect in his generations in that he was faithful to all that he could be with the amount of knowledge he had from God.

Quantrill

Well......My daddy always said. "You cannot win an argument with an ignorant man" So I'll stop trying.....Mr Quantrill..you, no doubt, are a smart man, but your ignorance is appalling.