Trinity Verse Removed?

[OneGodBeliever]

Hi Everyone,

While reading John chapters I came across 1 John 5:7.
i realised its not in RSV!
Why is that so?

 

[Hekuran]

For there are three that testify: the Spirit, the water and the blood; and the three are in agreement.
New International Verson
​

Or

For there are three that bear record in Heaven: the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost; and these three are one. And there are three that bear witness on earth: the Spirit, and the water, and the blood; and these three agree in one.
21st Century King James Version​

There are minor differences in the manuscripts that translators work from. Since the King James Version was produced, scholars found older Greek manuscripts, which they considered to be more reliable.

The most likely explanation is that somewhere along the way, a scribe added an explanatory note to the text and this got passed on. Most modern translations indicate with a footnote where there is disputed text. For example in the NIV the footnote says: Late manuscripts of the Vulgate testify in heaven: the Father, the Word and the Holy Spirit, and these three are one. 8 And there are three that testify on earth: the (not found in any Greek manuscript before the fourteenth century)

These discrepancies in the text are well known, and no major doctrine hangs on any of them.

 

[OneGodBeliever]

For there are three that testify: the Spirit, the water and the blood; and the three are in agreement.
New International Verson
​

Or

For there are three that bear record in Heaven: the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost; and these three are one. And there are three that bear witness on earth: the Spirit, and the water, and the blood; and these three agree in one.
21st Century King James Version​

There are minor differences in the manuscripts that translators work from. Since the King James Version was produced, scholars found older Greek manuscripts, which they considered to be more reliable.

The most likely explanation is that somewhere along the way, a scribe added an explanatory note to the text and this got passed on. Most modern translations indicate with a footnote where there is disputed text. For example in the NIV the footnote says: Late manuscripts of the Vulgate testify in heaven: the Father, the Word and the Holy Spirit, and these three are one. 8 And there are three that testify on earth: the (not found in any Greek manuscript before the fourteenth century)

These discrepancies in the text are well known, and no major doctrine hangs on any of them.

Isn't trinity a main doctrine?

 

[amadeus2]

Isn't trinity a main doctrine?

Not to everyone!

 

[OneGodBeliever]

Not to everyone!

Not for you? Are you non trinitarian?

 

[amadeus2]

Not for you? Are you non trinitarian?

I do not embrace the trinity as many here apparently do. I embrace God according to what He really is. What is that? God certainly knows and He will let us know what we need to know if we are sincerely seeking first His kingdom and His righteousness.

 

[Hekuran]

Isn't trinity a main doctrine?

Yes. The trinity is a main doctrine. What I meant was that the presence or absence of these disputed verses does not affect our overall understanding of the scriptures.

 

[OneGodBeliever]

I do not embrace the trinity as many here apparently do. I embrace God according to what He really is. What is that? God certainly knows and He will let us know what we need to know if we are sincerely seeking first His kingdom and His righteousness.

Hmm. What about your belief in Jesus as son of God?

 

[OneGodBeliever]

Yes. The trinity is a main doctrine. What I meant was that the presence or absence of these disputed verses does not affect our overall understanding of the scriptures.

Hmm

 

[B-A-C]

Believing in the deity of Jesus is required for salvation. There are people that don't agree.
But the Nicene creed is the accepted view by the "vast" majority of mainstream Christianity.

Most denominations believe that if you don't believe in the deity of Jesus, you aren't saved.

Heb 1:8; But of the Son He says, "YOUR THRONE, O GOD, IS FOREVER AND EVER, AND THE RIGHTEOUS SCEPTER IS THE SCEPTER OF HIS KINGDOM.

1Jn 5:20; And we know that the Son of God has come, and has given us understanding so that we may know Him who is true; and we are in Him who is true, in His Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God and eternal life.

Matt 1:20; But when he had considered this, behold, an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream, saying, "Joseph, son of David, do not be afraid to take Mary as your wife; for the Child who has been conceived in her is of the Holy Spirit.
1 Jn 4:15; Whoever confesses that Jesus is the Son of God, God abides in him, and he in God.

 

[B-A-C]

Rev 1:8; "I am the Alpha and the Omega," says the Lord God, "who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty."

Red colored text signifies Jesus talking.

But if the text wasn't red... how would we know Jesus was talking here?

Rev 1:12; Then I turned to see the voice that was speaking with me. And having turned I saw seven golden lampstands;
Rev 1:13; and in the middle of the lampstands I saw one like a son of man, clothed in a robe reaching to the feet, and girded across His chest with a golden sash.
Rev 1:14; His head and His hair were white like white wool, like snow; and His eyes were like a flame of fire.
Rev 1:15; His feet were like burnished bronze, when it has been made to glow in a furnace, and His voice was like the sound of many waters.
Rev 1:16; In His right hand He held seven stars, and out of His mouth came a sharp two-edged sword; and His face was like the sun shining in its strength.
Rev 1:17; When I saw Him, I fell at His feet like a dead man. And He placed His right hand on me, saying, "Do not be afraid; I am the first and the last,
Rev 1:18; and the living One; and I was dead, and behold, I am alive forevermore, and I have the keys of death and of Hades.

Was it God the Father who was dead? Or was it Jesus? Obviously Jesus is the one speaking in this passage.

 

[Bendito]

Hi Everyone,

While reading John chapters I came across 1 John 5:7.
i realised its not in RSV!
Why is that so?

The verse you're looking for is vs 8....The Spirit the Water and the Blood. I'm not sure why some versions say it this way but it is there. So...The Spirit is the Holy Spirit, the Blood is the blood of Jesus and the Water is the Father, that part I don't understand.....We need to pray over this? Holy Spirit is our teacher.

 

[amadeus2]

Hmm. What about your belief in Jesus as son of God?

I do believe what is written in the scriptures but as you already know all of those who believe in the scriptures do not always agree with each other on every point. This is why the Apostle Paul wrote these words:

"For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known." I Cor 13:12

For now our vision may still be blurred about some things, but if we are seeking God truth then eventually we will all encounter that "face to face" vision. Most everyone insists that they are correct in the way they believe it, but as Solomon wrote long before the birth of Jesus:

"Every way of a man is right in his own eyes: but the LORD pondereth the hearts." Prov 21:2

That old proverb is still true today. If the hearts of each of us is right before God and we need correction in this belief or this doctrine, will not He correct us?

Without going into who Jesus is or is not, which may for some be a controversial subject, consider rather why Jesus came. Why did he say that he came?

"The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly." John 10:10

When we recognize why he came and are moving closer to God as a result and He believes we need a better understanding of who Jesus was and is perhaps we can move in that direction as well. Too often we demand black and white answers to our questions simply to satisfy our own curiosity rather than mover closer to God because we really love Him.

 

[B-A-C]

When we recognize why he came and are moving closer to God as a result

Moving closer to which God? A flower isn't a rock. A bird isn't a horse. A god that doesn't incorporate Jesus isn't a God.
Any other god is a false god.

2 Cor 6:15; Or what harmony has Christ with Belial, or what has a believer in common with an unbeliever?

There are dozens of verses that say Jesus is God. You can change your thinking to match the Bible, or you can change
your "Bible" to match your thinking. For many people the latter is preferable.

Was Jesus just a "good man" or just a "prophet"?

Matt 16:13; Now when Jesus came into the district of Caesarea Philippi, He was asking His disciples, "Who do people say that the Son of Man is?"
Matt 16:14; And they said, "Some say John the Baptist; and others, Elijah; but still others, Jeremiah, or one of the prophets."
Matt 16:15; He *said to them, " But who do you say that I am?"
Matt 16:16; Simon Peter answered, "You are the Christ, the Son of the living God."
Matt 16:17; And Jesus said to him, "Blessed are you, Simon Barjona, because flesh and blood did not reveal this to you, but My Father who is in heaven.
Matt 16:18; "I also say to you that you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build My church; and the gates of Hades will not overpower it.

Or was He actually God?

Matt 1:23; "BEHOLD, THE VIRGIN SHALL BE WITH CHILD AND SHALL BEAR A SON, AND THEY SHALL CALL HIS NAME IMMANUEL," which translated means, "GOD WITH US."

Too often we demand black and white answers to our questions simply to satisfy our own curiosity rather than mover closer to God because we really love Him.

How can you love God if you don't know who He is? How can you love God if you don't believe in what He is? Many people.. love many gods.

 

[B-A-C]

To say that it doesn't matter who God is... as long we love Him is really heresy.

It's Ok if God is Allah... as long we love him?
It's OK if God is Balaam... and long as we love him.
It's OK if God is Ra, or Isis, or Shiva, or whoever... as long as we love him.

No the Bible makes it clear... it matters who your God is.

Exod 20:3; "You shall have no other gods before Me.
Exod 20:4; "You shall not make for yourself an idol, or any likeness of what is in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the water under the earth.
Exod 20:5; "You shall not worship them or serve them; for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children, on the third and the fourth generations of those who hate Me,

Answers to the Cults' Attacks on Jesus' Deity
4 Challenges to Christ's Deity
Defending the Deity of Jesus Christ to the Cults | John Ankerberg Show

What the Cults believe
What Is a Cult?
Is Jesus God?

Why are Mormon's and Jehovah's witnesses considered a cult? Because they deny the deity of Jesus.
Any "Christian" that denies the deity of Jesus... is a cult... plain and simple. They worship a false God. Those aren't my words. They are the words of almost every Christian denominations fundamental beliefs.

 

[amadeus2]

Moving closer to which God? A flower isn't a rock. A bird isn't a horse. A god that doesn't incorporate Jesus isn't a God.
Any other god is a false god.

2 Cor 6:15; Or what harmony has Christ with Belial, or what has a believer in common with an unbeliever?

There are dozens of verses that say Jesus is God. You can change your thinking to match the Bible, or you can change
your "Bible" to match your thinking. For many people the latter is preferable.

Was Jesus just a "good man" or just a "prophet"?

Matt 16:13; Now when Jesus came into the district of Caesarea Philippi, He was asking His disciples, "Who do people say that the Son of Man is?"
Matt 16:14; And they said, "Some say John the Baptist; and others, Elijah; but still others, Jeremiah, or one of the prophets."
Matt 16:15; He *said to them, " But who do you say that I am?"
Matt 16:16; Simon Peter answered, "You are the Christ, the Son of the living God."
Matt 16:17; And Jesus said to him, "Blessed are you, Simon Barjona, because flesh and blood did not reveal this to you, but My Father who is in heaven.
Matt 16:18; "I also say to you that you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build My church; and the gates of Hades will not overpower it.

Or was He actually God?

Matt 1:23; "BEHOLD, THE VIRGIN SHALL BE WITH CHILD AND SHALL BEAR A SON, AND THEY SHALL CALL HIS NAME IMMANUEL," which translated means, "GOD WITH US."



How can you love God if you don't know who He is? How can you love God if you don't believe in what He is? Many people.. love many gods.

Is this right place and the right thread to even discuss these things?

Sounds like you are wishing to stir up an argument based on your beliefs because they may differ in places with mine. Life does not come to us because our doctrines are the most accurate. Jesus explains simply what is necessary in order to never die, but you want to add something to it that is not written:

"Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:
And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?" John 11:25-26

Does believing in Jesus require that we know that he is God? [Notice that I am not saying that he is not.] It is a matter of first things first according to God, not according to our own doctrines and conclusions. Consider what the following verse actually says:

"Every way of a man is right in his own eyes: but the LORD pondereth the hearts." Prov 21:2

So how important are our conclusions, right or wrong ones? Aren't they only important if God says that they are? Where does the scripture say clearly that if we do not believe Jesus is God we are lost?

What is the Apostle Paul saying here?

"Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal.
And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing.
And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned, and have not charity, it profiteth me nothing." I Cor 13:1-3

To me it means that even our knowledge of scriptures and our knowledge of doctrines are empty and nothing if we do not have charity/love. You have it seemly concluded that something else is more important. Consider what charity/love is according to the scripture:

"Charity suffereth long, and is kind; charity envieth not; charity vaunteth not itself, is not puffed up,
Doth not behave itself unseemly, seeketh not her own, is not easily provoked, thinketh no evil;
Rejoiceth not in iniquity, but rejoiceth in the truth;
Beareth all things, believeth all things, hopeth all things, endureth all things." I Cor 13:4-7

What are the first things that need to always be first according to Jesus?

"But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you." Matt 6:33

If we are really sincerely doing those two things as per that verse will not God then add anything else He deems necessary. You don't add it and neither do I. God alone gives any increase and we really should leave it then with Him.

 

[amadeus2]

How can you love God if you don't know who He is? How can you love God if you don't believe in what He is? Many people.. love many gods.

What is it that you know rather than believe by faith? Consider the situation of Thomas:

"Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed." John 20:29

With which eyes have you seen Jesus? Apostle only saw as "through a glass darkly". Do you see better than that?

 

[B-A-C]

Where else would you like to talk about the trinity, other than a trinity thread?

This isn't just another opinion thing. This is a doctrine of demons. This is the spirit of the anti-Christ.
It isn't just my opinion. It's scripture.

To teach any other god on here... is just plain and simple not the God of the Bible.

 

[Curtis]

Jesus claimed to be the "I am" who spoke to Moses, making himself God. There is no Greek word for "he" in John 8:24

Exo 3:14 And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you.

John 8:24 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.

Joh 8:56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad.
Joh 8:57 Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham?
Joh 8:58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.
Joh 8:59 Then took they up stones to cast at him: but Jesus hid himself, and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by.

Joh 10:31 Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him.
Joh 10:32 Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me?
Joh 10:33 The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.

1Ti 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

 

[amadeus2]

Where else would you like to talk about the trinity, other than a trinity thread?

This isn't just another opinion thing. This is a doctrine of demons. This is the spirit of the anti-Christ.
It isn't just my opinion. It's scripture.

To teach any other god on here... is just plain and simple not the God of the Bible.

Discussion of the trinity was not my point. Sorry for having disturbed you. You look to doctrines which are not essential to salvation and call them essential for you say to oppose them is a devil's doctrine and the spirit of the anti-Christ. Obviously we disagree.

Verses which might support a trinity doctrine can be found, but verses against it also are to be found. On both sides the believers are just that, believers, not holders of absolute knowledge. You speak not from belief or faith but as if from knowledge. Is your knowledge so certain as that?

You are in effect saying it must be 'my way or the highway' thing even though no where in scripture does it clearly say that a person must embrace the trinity to be saved.

You exclude most Trinitarians for most of them probably could not if they were ask to do so provide the proof texts from scripture as to why they are Trinitarians. They are where they are by faith. I am where I am by faith. None of us are here by knowledge. The Life that Jesus brought is received by believing, not by knowing. You have ignored what I wrote in my posts # 16 and #17 in favor of your preconceived idea of what is right and what is not, which is and was and remains a very Catholic notion. So now on a very anti Catholic forum some busily engage in condemnation anyone who fails to embrace a very Catholic doctrine instead of simply leaving it in God's hand where it belongs. God never gave us the job to condemn anyone. It is not necessary because anyone who walks in death is condemned already. Our job should be to edify not to tear down.

I won't argue the Trinity doctrine with you. I do not embrace it, but I simply walk by faith, which is simply "the evidence of things hoped for, substance of things not seen". But you are saying we have to see what you see.